Since this game change goes against my idea of fun, I'd like to state that I'm not a fan.

I for one thought teleportation was plenty risky enough. Probably 50% of my mob deaths are from bad teleports, and I mob die _a lot_.

I'm probably in the minority here, but I just wanted to voice my opinion.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Teleport used to be a gamble. Now, its basically a replacement for walking. People teleport everytime they so much as get the feeling someone else is around. If I play a class with teleport inherently, there's no reason to walk anywhere, or walk out of guilds, or walk out of ranking areas. IE, its one of the most useful spells in the game, whereas it used to be a spell that'd get you mob killed half the time you used it.

Seriously I'm still going to teleport until it becomes apparent that it is Bad Idea (tm) or until I start getting gate with my characters. Walking across Thera takes too long.

This change wasn't a full-stop don't ever use teleport as a convienience, or else they would make it so that you can only use teleport under player PK adrenaline, or in a room with no exits that you probably couldn't get out of anyway.

It was to tweak the risk up a bit. And to be honest, with all the rooms in CF, even this tweak isn't going to make teleporting for convienience THAT much more dangerous, they are more counting on the White-Cloak style deaths that everyone remembers, so that will curb it's use. This comes back to the other topic that has been beaten to death: how big CF's size is as related to both hunting people down and escaping from hostiles.

Anyway, tweaking up the number of dangerous rooms you can teleport into, (as opposed to the total number of relatively safe rooms in Thera) is more of a mindgame than physically increasing the risk such that the algorithm directly is slanted more toward dangerous rooms than safe ones. It is NOT going to stop Nepenthe from making a Cabdru or Zorsaul type, teleporting repeatedly and jumping your #### while you're in Velkyn Oloth trying to request The Light of Redemption or something.

I'm relatively certain I'll use teleport in much the same ways I always have, but I just wanted to mention the Kaubris spells which (AFAIK) no one has ever had, and have been relatively forgotten about.

I could be totally wrong about that though as I don't play 100% of the time so I miss stuff.

When they first came I saw a few conjurers with them. But now they've kind of lost interest or been forgotten I think.

My experience is pretty much the opposite. With my current character I've teleported away from a losing pk probably a hundred times, usually pretty low on hp and I'm pretty sure I've only died once as a result. I've gotten bad teleports, but a second teleport has always saved me. The way teleport worked before, combined with the size CF is now, meant that carrying two potions virtually guaranteed safety. Your odds of two bad teleports in a row is pretty tiny.

I never even use recall potions anymore because of the drawbacks. Going to a predictable location where people can set traps or enemies can just randomly happen to be is way worse than being in some random spot nobody goes to. And the fact is that most rooms in CF are out of the way. Having a healer at recall helps, but I still find it riskier to recall than teleport.

And I think it's silly that teleport is a better escape than word, since it's clearly meant to be the other way (word is higher level when people get it, more expensive in potion form and halves moves).

Change the skill improvement for teleport so it only works if you actually can teleport from the room. (ie no spamming teleport to 100% from the shadow grove or wherever...)

You can't improve from successfully casting teleport if you're someplace you can't teleport from.

You can however fail to cast the spell and learn from mistakes.

For the most part I think this balances out pretty well. If you're, say, a fire A-P with an abysmal 63 teleport, you can practice that up to 80 pretty quick... but a pure mistakes spell learning has rapidly diminishing returns as your skill improves. It's not a good way to gun for 100% unless you're extremely patient and anal. Even I'm not that extremely patient and anal.

.

Word.

No, not word, teleport. ;)

I think it is pretty reasonable change.

Aggro mobs, no magic room, locked door, underwater, in the air - FINE.
As long as there is a chance you can get out.

My only grudge is - you can teleport into rooms with instant_kill greet_prog.

Like "Plummeting down from the mountains".
If you teleport there - you are actually landing at the bottom, not "making step in a wrong direction" place.
Does not seem right...

I would appreciate if you add 2 lines of code to avoid such destinations.

Thank you in advance,

-=NNNick=-

Actually I will see how it goes. I dont tend to port much until I can last a few rounds V most mobs I am likely to encounter.

-----Abernyte

but I'll have to post my favor of this change. Of course, I've also played this game since the forever, and remember teleport being the last-ditch effort, or just wanting to be a bastard and keeping people from finding your corpse. Of course, as the newbie I was, I also didn't know ANYWHERE around, so if I ever used it, I pretty much expected to die.

Personally, what's bothered me most about teleport has been it's sheer convenience to obtain now. I wouldn't mind a lesser risk of teleport, if it weren't for the fact that ABSOLUTELY everyone has bundles of teleport potions, if nothing else. Move it back into the hands of those who have it naturally, or have to put some work into using it...sure, why not. Or hell, make 90% of teleport potions have a good chance to blind you before they fling you around, and I'd be good with it being safish too.

Anyways, just my vote. (BTW, with the whole conspiracy theory...Whitecloaks has some sort of magical teleportation-attractor, doesn't it?)

Anyways, just my vote. (BTW, with the whole conspiracy theory...Whitecloaks has some sort of magical teleportation-attractor, doesn't it?)

You just remember those teleports longer. :)

The code for teleportation is random, with the caveat that certain rooms are never eligible. (Explore areas in general, other continents that your starting point, rooms specifically designated by the area's author, etc.) No attractors, no "rare" teleports, secret modifiers, etc.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

It would replace the words "This is less fun." with "This makes me less powerful." and "This is more fun." with "This makes me more powerful."

It's sad that so many people see game balance in that light, but you don't have to read too many threads to figure out how accurate the above substitution is.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I can live with those posts, actually. I expect them. A competitive game is, in some aspects, zero-sum. If we add something super-cool for conjurers, a serial Battle player who never in his wildest dreams would touch a conjurer is going to be unhappy. There's no pleasing everyone and you just try to make the best choices you can for the game, its fun, and the depth of its strategy overall.

What gets me are the OMG if you teleport you're going underwater and there you're going to be totally stuck and drown and lose lots of XP!!!! posts. I mean, okay, it's a new change. We didn't do a perfectly clear job of explaining it in the first go. Please, ask questions, but please, don't make assumptions about things you don't know yet and freak out. Ask us, see if your assumptions are correct, and then freak out if you must.

I was tempted to preempt this with a #### you but I won't. I almost said that because I am tired and I'm assuming you took a back handed jab at me.

Now onto the meat.

Nobody is freaking out except you and Valg with your Insta-Defensive comments button.

You took two things that I doubt a single player in his wildest dreams would have thought to complain about and made them complaint worthy.

You coded your bed, now sleep in it.

Doom is a lot more 'fun' than CF in many ways. I have 20 minutes to kill? Well, CF is pretty much out of the question, so I'll play Doom, or Grand Theft Auto. I think that most of the times, yes, the players mean what you say, but to generalize all player complaints on a public forum in such a way is doing a disservice to the loyal customers you do have.

I love CF. I think that, personally, it is the best MUD out there. I would rather play CF than play WoW, or any other online games (well, maybe I'd play CounterStrike, but I haven't played that in seven years). However, CF in the last year has become less fun for me. Is it because of all the changes you made? No. I won't lie and say that ALL of them are good for the type of playstyle I play, but on the whole, as Nepenthe said, change is good for a game. CF has become less fun for me (and I'd assume most 20-something players with a job and a significant other have much the same problems) because I (if I knew HTML, I'd bold that) no longer have the time I used to play the game. IF I could find enjoyment playing 5 hours a month, then CF would still be 'more fun' for me, but for CF, and any MUD for that matter, to be fun, I feel I need to truly immerse myself in my character. And I cannot do that with such little time to play.

We get the time constraints issue, and that's not the type of post I'm talking about. If anything, we've made a lot of changes to address that.

However, I think other players do real concerns a disservice when they pop up here and say "You changed the success rate on Forage and now the game is no fun."

Staying on the topic of Teleport, one thing that people do complain about is that it's hard to get fights. If you were gunning for me, and I just hit "flee; c teleport" after one round of combat every time, what would you think of me as a player? Overly safe teleportation encourages that. What about trying to set a trap for someone who you know is on the move? Hard to do if they're going to teleport 15 times until they're right next to where they want to end up. Etc.

Did any of that appear in the discussion? No. Just "I might die, therefore this is bad for the game."

I think Daevryn was off when he said CF is largely zero-sum-- most of PvE is the opposite. You definitely can make all PCs stronger or weaker relative to their environment. That said, there are a lot of things about CF that make all players weaker relative to their environment (e.g., CON/exp loss on death) that make gameplay a lot more exciting. If we took all the penalties (including potential loss of gear, enforced ghostdom, etc.) out of dying... both the killers and the explorers would be bored in a week.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>It would replace the words "This is less fun." with "This
>makes me less powerful." and "This is more fun." with "This
>makes me more powerful."
>
>It's sad that so many people see game balance in that light,
>but you don't have to read too many threads to figure out how
>accurate the above substitution is.
>

Good thing you're not lumping my post into that assumption. If I wanted to say "this makes me less powerful," I would have typed those exact words. Don't worry your pretty little head over trying to put words in my mouth.

This also goes against my idea of fun.

Reasoning: I have a hero character who is somewhat predicated on teleporting- loosely speaking. Chaos and all that. But more importantly, the fun factor for ~me~ as a player, is teleporting around to find new areas to explore when I have no enemies/friends around. I do (well, did) this a LOT. Now I'll not risk it. Simply due to the fact it may mean death. I was totally fine with teleporting into a nasty mob which ~probably~ means death, because at least I could escape...but a non teleporting/wording no escape room...?

Anyways, couple questions:

1) From the helpfile: "There are places in Thera, however, from (or to) which no means of magical trans-location is possible, including teleport."

- Q's: A) Does this still hold true? I'm assuming it still holds true for explore areas. B) Are ALL places now opened to teleport into, even if they're flagged as no_teleport (Underdark comes to mind), or are there selected areas only?

2) Kasty, you said, "Reason: Over the years, there have been a lot more teleport-friendly rooms added to the MUD then teleport-unfriendly rooms, thus significantly reducing the danger that should be inherent to the spell. I routinely use (and have seen others use) teleport as a lazy means of transportation rather than a last ditch means of escape, which was one of the intents of the spell."

- This seems like some thin reasoning to me. Just to make life harder for teleporters? But WHY make life harder for teleporters? Something like, making life better for non-teleporters (villagers, this would be a great thing for them!), or...? Still lost on the why.

3) "I guarantee that I will be one of the first victims to teleport my still-lazy ass into the Pine Forest."

- Already could teleport there, yo :).


Anyways, teleporting has gotten me more area experience/knowledge than walking around could EVER do. A shame that's no longer too much of an option, especially for newer players. Thera's a big place, and one could make the argument as to teleport NEEDS to be safer now than it once was becauase of the pain it is to walk from one cend of the continent to the other.

Oh, lastly, maybe update the helpfile to clarify additional risks and save y'all some explaining later!!

>1) From the helpfile: "There are places in Thera, however,
>from (or to) which no means of magical trans-location is
>possible, including teleport."
>
>- Q's: A) Does this still hold true?

Absolutely. Most of the places you couldn't teleport into yesterday you still couldn't.

Basically, the way things have been for a while is that if a room was no-recall, it was really ALL transportation magic fails, including recall, teleport, gate, etc. Now, that's somewhat decoupled -- you can teleport from some places you can't recall from, you can recall from some places you can't teleport from, etc.

For the vast majority of Thera, you still can either do both or neither.

>I'm assuming it still
>holds true for explore areas. B) Are ALL places now opened to
>teleport into, even if they're flagged as no_teleport
>(Underdark comes to mind), or are there selected areas only?

Selected!

>2) Kasty, you said, "Reason: Over the years, there have been a
>lot more teleport-friendly rooms added to the MUD then
>teleport-unfriendly rooms, thus significantly reducing the
>danger that should be inherent to the spell. I routinely use
>(and have seen others use) teleport as a lazy means of
>transportation rather than a last ditch means of escape, which
>was one of the intents of the spell."
>
>- This seems like some thin reasoning to me. Just to make life
>harder for teleporters? But WHY make life harder for
>teleporters? Something like, making life better for
>non-teleporters (villagers, this would be a great thing for
>them!), or...? Still lost on the why.

The teleport spell was originally concieved of and balanced upon having a certain amount of risk.

As the world's gotten bigger, basically, that risk has been constantly decreasing.

If the risk more or less goes away, the dynamics of teleporting change a lot, and in turn the dynamics of the game in general change a lot. This is more true for higher end players than midrange players.

For example, as things stood, I basically would not ever walk out of my guild or cabal as a class with teleport. Why open myself to that kind of snare/assassination/quicksand/etc. risk? I also pretty much would never walk anywhere that was more than 1-2 ticks away as a class with teleport -- I'd teleport until I was someplace within 1-2 ticks walk and roll from there. For a long time this really has been, in most cases, the smart behavior and it really warps a lot of the dynamics of the game.

If I wanted to find someone to PK? Why check areas and develop any kind of hunting method when I can just teleport until I see someone in my PK range and bash them down? (The answer in that case is: for when I play a character that doesn't have teleport, but the point remains.)

Along similar lines, a lot of more conservative players, if fighting a shaman, will flee and quaff teleport literally upon the very first malediction landed upon them if they aren't already massively winning. And again, if you wanted to play conservatively, that really was the smart choice.

Teleport was never meant to be a poor man's gate or a substitute for walking, but over time it became that and we've decided to take steps to correct it. This de-powers teleport characters in some ways but overall we think it's good for the dynamics of the game.

If you need to get away from a gang of people, if you're slept and messed up, if you're pretty sure there's an assassin waiting outside your cabal, if you're pretty sure a bunch of Outlanders are waiting for you two rooms away chameleoned -- these are all still great reasons to teleport, and I'm sure it will still be well worth any risk in these cases. What probably isn't worth it is convienience teleporting in most cases.

When I first started playing CF, recalling/teleporting/etc. into and out of a room weren't necessarily coupled. That change was made sometime between when I started playing and when I immed. Over time we've reviewed it and decided that it either wasn't a good idea in the first place or it just doesn't suit the needs of the game anymore, and so here we are.

I will say I do have some great, fun memories out of that old era that relate to teleport working the way it did. Maybe we can sucker Vlad into telling his story of teleporting into the Mausoleum.

Who thinks of these things?

.

>- This seems like some thin reasoning to me. Just to make life
>harder for teleporters? But WHY make life harder for
>teleporters? Something like, making life better for
>non-teleporters (villagers, this would be a great thing for
>them!), or...? Still lost on the why.

I think the reasoning is that teleport was designed to be a last-ditch effort to save yourself in a desperate situation. Because of the dangers, you wouldn't teleport unless you really needed to.

Now, as he says, people use it as a shortcut. A couple months ago I was in a group and we were at High Lord's Keep. We wanted to go somewhere not close. So the healer group teleported us. We didn't land near enough where we wanted to go. So we group teleported again and again until we got near.

There was no forethought, like "What if we land somewhere bad?" It was just "This will be quicker than walking." I think Kastellyn is saying they're trying to put the risk back into it.

FWIW, I don't really like the change either, but I understand why they're doing it.

That was reliable but carried some risk?

It's that there really wasn't any risk. For the better players especially it could be minimized below being worthy of consideration.

I have carried teleport potions on my person, but have only used one once in years.

Why?

Because I was afraid of a Mob death, so much so that I would run my ass off to the last before I used it.

Is this change going to aect my play style? Nope, but I think you picked a silly skill to play with.

I'm not going to offer a hinden sect compromise because I doubt there'sanything that would make this sound like a good idea.

I'll be straight with you, man. I didn't set out here to bash you.

But when I said this change mostly alters gameplay for higher end skill players and gave some examples... I wasn't including you in that group.

Basically, this changes something people like me have been using to run roughshod over you for years and evens out the playing field a bit.

Ever set an elaborate trap for someone outside their cabal or guild or ranking area or whatever, sure they would need to come your way, only to find they'd somehow eluded you and raided your cabal meanwhile? That was teleport.

Ever be out in the middle of bumble#### nowhere and out of the blue an A-P shows up and smokes you, and you can't even figure out why on earth they would have thought to look for you in the Bandit Encampment? Probably, that was me or someone like me spamming teleport until I saw you and killing you, because there just was no real risk or even inconvienience for me.

Ever had an enemy (not a stealth guy) who you could never seem to find and pin down, but who always could seem to find you just fine? Teleport. Ever wondered how someone beat you halfway across the world to raid a cabal, defend a cabal, grab a piece of gear, etc. so fast? Teleport.

None of that's really what the spell was meant for, but it's been killing you 50 ways from Sunday. If you have a character that died ten times, odds are great that teleport in the hands of someone who understood the dynamics and risks of teleport better than you was a factor at least one of those times.

I'm sorry that you didn't understand that, and that you feel compelled to complain about a change that you don't even really understand. God knows I don't want to say something asinine like: "Shut up for a minute and let the adults talk.", but times like this, damned if it isn't close to that.

This is way nicer than what I was going to post :)

You assume I don't know what I am talking about but you can't say that with any certainty. It your opinion, just as it is my opinion that the staff changed two skills that really didn't need to be messed with.

That whole slippery slope thing. There have been a lot of things tweeked downward lately it seems. Each time you and Valg seem amazed that their are older players that get upset.

If you wanted to get rid of the Cabal escape, why not make Cabals No teleport? If someone gets away, more power to them.
But to clairify, because it seems you and others tend to miss the point. This isn't about the teleport/Drowning changes. It was about two small things that just seemed petty problems if they were at all.

>You assume I don't know what I am talking about but you can't
>say that with any certainty.

No, I'm quite certain.

You know how every couple of months you'll get a guy on newbie channel bitching about how trip is worthless because it hardly does any damage?

You can tell straight out that that guy doesn't really understand how trip works or what the point of it is. There's just no arguing it among people who do understand how trip works.

Based on your posts in this thread (and I'm being completely serious), that guy understands the uses and implications of trip better than you understand the uses and implications of teleport.

That this was something that didn't need to be changed.

You got side tracked.

Which is : Your opinion sucks. We're not interested in opinions that suck.

But that doesn't change the fact that I'm not alone in this.

>But that doesn't change the fact that I'm not alone in this.

No, you really are.

Other people don't like this change because it impacts the way they play or for other reasons that, whether I agree with them or not, are based in some level of understanding of what's really changing.

Those people aren't "with" you. I have to assume they're more frustrated with you than I am, because you're making them all look like the crazy old guy who lives on the hill and hates color TV because he thinks the devil makes it.

He argues for argument sake. He has no facts. His posts are generally baseless and opinionated. He's a straight-up ####tard claiming he has an army of people backing up the garbage he puts up... when really, he *IS* just "An Army Of One".





"Success is not the result of spontaneous combustion; you must set yourself on fire."

He argues for argument sake. He has no facts. His posts are generally baseless and opinionated. He's a straight-up ####tard claiming he has an army of people backing up the garbage he puts up... when really, he *IS* just "An Army Of One".

You start this in such away that it makes any responce to it seem like a validation of your opinion. It's not.

I did have my opinion, and I was attacked personally for it. I rebutted. On the other site, there are people discussing this in a much more civil fashion than was shown me.

Oh, and that would be that army I never said I had.

I think your knee jerk reaction occluded your thought process.

You launched into a personal attack against me from the get go and haven't relented since.

If it's escaped you, I'll say it again.

You changed two things that just didn't need changed. You changed them in such a way that they have a greater chance to have a negative impact on characters.

I'm only wondering how that's a good thing?

Feel free to keep attacking me though.

>You changed two things that just didn't need changed. You
>changed them in such a way that they have a greater chance to
>have a negative impact on characters.
>
>I'm only wondering how that's a good thing?


We all understood what you were saying originally. Virtually all of us disagree with your assessment. It helps the average player because now there's less of a chance of a good player spam teleporting around until I find them and kill them. It helps level the playing field a little. And a good player on foot, their prey may be a little wary of teleporting away making it theoretically easier to chase/hunt.

Of course.. this has already been posted and you ignored it or didn't get it.

> You changed them in such a way that they have a greater chance to
>have a negative impact on characters.
>
>I'm only wondering how that's a good thing?

Things that have a negative impact on characters are not inherently unfun. It's the combination of positive and negative possibilities that makes the game fun.

Here's how it's a good thing: Negative impact on characters can be fun sometimes. Whether this particular one is fun or not is debateable (I think it is fun), but just assuming that any negative impact is a bad thing is failing to grasp the very basis of what makes a game a game.

Let's pretend the kick skill hit every time for 1000 points of damage instead of the damage it does today. If we revamped the skill to work like it does now, that would be impacting it in a negative way and impacting classes with that skill in a negative way... but it wouldn't be bad for the game.

It would be nice if the best way to make everything fun and balanced and constantly improving were to always bring characters up rather than down so no one ever felt singled-out or wimped down... but honestly, that isn't always the best way.

You don't outrank anyone here soldier, you should create a decent char and become and Imm and try and change the game for the better that way, not just by whining on forums.

You assume I don't know what I am talking about but you can't say that with any certainty.

I generally assume you don't know what you're talking about because as of now, you have 647 posts, plus a pile of anonymous ones that don't get tallied, and I think I have a good handle on how well you understand the game. You are by no means the expert you present yourself as, despite the sheer amount of time you've been here.

You can blame me, or blame Nep, or blame Sebeok... (I know we're on the same page on this one)... but it's not like the players generally line up behind your opinions on game balance either.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I don't get some of the blame?? I thought I *always* got some of the blame???

:P

Now, we haven't always been the best of friends, Mr. Graatch. I think you're somewhat Battle-centric, but you don't see me posting stuff like "Graatch doesn't understand how CF works." If I did, I would get dogpiled by other players, even the ones who aren't the best of friends with you. CF's been around a log time, and people know who you are and what you're about.

I further recognize that having Battle-centric players is useful because they they're the canary in the coal mine if we change something that has a disproportionate negative impact on Battle. When we make that change, some sort of Bat-signal goes off over NYC, an emergency phone chain is activated, and you and Thinhallen and Abernyte and whoever else appear out of the (Eastern Road) woodwork and make sure Battle's still viable. I come in with some idea that you guys know what "viable" means in practice most of the time, and it often matches what we see in our statistics and what the game-balance-hawks on staff are telling me. I have some feeling that I'm speaking more with a lobbyist than a judge, but at least it's a sane lobbyist.

Credibility matters. Most arguments over CF aren't over black and white issues, but involve shades of gray like "too difficult", "too time-consuming", "underpowered", and the like. Rookies and veterans both use those phrases, but the latter are more likely to use it in a proper context.

I think Pro just plain doesn't understand how CF works. I'd honestly take advice from a 1st-day newbie before I took advice from someone that has done that much to convince me he has no clue how it works.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

The irony of all this, is that I started as a die-hard Masters player. I mean really, over and over and over, with even fewer non-masters than I currently play non-battle. It was only after my year or so break that I came back and played Loborguz and had fun that I really started on the Battle kick, and one of the reasons I have stuck with it - aside from the fun - is the institution of the a/b/s system. I'm not here to argue the merits of that, but just to show that while I have become a battle centric guy, it's 180 from where I started and my first four years at cf.

Good times.*

*I miss Phil Hartman. The world is still a sadder place for his loss. And if any of you don't understand why I link that to saying Good Times, I recommend the box set of News Radio. Some great comedy in a small package.

Is this decidedly anti-pro campain you've embarked on.

I have asked about some things in the past, and made my opinions known on other things, but you are being dishonest when you try to pain me as a person who goes out of his way to bash you and yours.

I would think the net result of this is, that newer players will not voice their opinions because of the very visible tendency of the staff to squelch anything contrary to their collective decission.

The disention may not be reaching hear, but it's elsewhere. I'll take the hit and ask the questions.

Continuous personal attacks on me really have no bearing on the subject at hand.

That being, you (The staff) make unpopular descisions some times, and you are going to hear about it.

I think it's fair to say that I'm trying to be civil, but that it's not being returned.

It just so happens that you are being a ####tard and are loud enough and stupid enough that they *thought* calling you out on being a ####tard would shut you up. What they don't realize is that you are too stupid to read and understand what is written, so it is a waste of time for them if that is their goal. As a secondary goal they are making sure that no one listens to you until you stop being a ####tard on the off chance that some noob somewhere accidentally starts thinking you have a point that isn't based on Pro's fantasy CF that has little to no resemblance to the actually game the rest of us are playing.

Once again you will claim I'm just being hateful or whatever, but if you read my posts (and were capable of understanding them) you'd realize that I'm just trying to get through your thick skull...

And there should be an anchored post on the newbie board that states: Don't listen to Pro. He's a ####tard"




"Success is not the result of spontaneous combustion; you must set yourself on fire."

But I'm not.

I have questions and I ask them.

I have my opinions and I give them.

To be attacke for them isn't really calle for.

This whole thread has degenerated into me defending myself against attacks from some of the immortals. Attacks that have apparently emboldened you and others.

Right. This isn't the first time that I, or several other people, have pointed out the suckiness of your queries. Most time, perhaps not all, you form opinions based on things you think you have much knowledge of, but in reality, know little or nothing of the actual function. This causes your posts to appear uneducated, opinionated (biased towards your own CF fantasy), and downright retarded.

Instead of saying "The Sky is Falling!!!", why not ask, "Hey, will you be able to teleport into water now?".

Someone else mentioned (perhaps Yhorian?) that they explore the possibilities of the changes first, then bring up the queries. I'll admit that I jumped on the bandwagon when the haste changes came in, because it definitely had a negative impact on my characters. But after seeing it in play, I don't think it's all bad, just different. And while I am exploring these changes, I'm able to find specific things that may be oversights (which I do have a few questions, but have yet to fully unveil them).

You are jumping the gun more often than not. Asking silly questions that you could find out on your own. Making accusations against people with no fact, so it seems you're just "out to get people". And now you're claiming the Immortals are attacking you? You attack them at any turn you can with your ignorant (and offensive) posts, which are more frequent than people care for them to be. So take a good long look at yourself before scrutinizing other people. I know I do often, and its made me more respecting and respectable (maybe not here, but in every day events IRL). If you'd start applying the common courtesies that I know you've been taught to use when dealing with other people, and used them here, on a forum, without any face-to-face conversation, where it's easy to be a jackhole, then you'd start getting the respect you and your questions/opinions deserve.

The more you try to deny that you are as stupid as everyone claims, the more you simply proove it. Some of your posts I can hardly believe are real because I can't believe someone would be that dense.

Do you have a learning disability? Have you considered lessons in reading comprehension? I honestly think you should, Pro.

You are being hatefull.

Not that I'm trying to suck up for brownie points. I just think some positive reinforcement is needed sometimes.

Screw Pro. He's a b00b n00b.

I'd be intrested to know how many there are.

If you want to be honest. I often make posts that start a lot of stir with out anything beyond my initial input.

This tells me that while I may not win popularity contests, I'm at least touching on hot topics.

I'm still of the opinion that these changes were't needed, whether they do or do not affect me.

>This tells me that while I may not win popularity contests,
>I'm at least touching on hot topics.

Or it indicates that you're a skilled troll with a knack for flamebait. Stirring up schit on the internet is not a commendable skill. I do think you're being mostly civil in this discussion, and there is something to be said for that.

Take a look at this thread. You posted a reasonable question, and Nep answered it reasonably. Then you posted a sarcastic post complete with some sniping at the staff and some martyrdom. ("I'm not going to offer a hinden sect compromise because I doubt there's anything that would make this sound like a good idea.") After that people started coming down on you. If you just leave the BS out of your posts to being with, you'll be ignored or politely refuted in all probability.

And the fact that you've revealed yourself to be a bit of a nutjob in other arenas probably doesn't help you any when it comes to gameplay issues. It's hard to forget that the guy complaining about the teleport changes is the guy who thinks aztlan is a serious issue. It's not really fair, but it's human nature.

>>>the guy who thinks aztlan is a serious issue<<<

You have to be trying hard to pretend this isn't an issue. But it isn't the issue at hand.

That hind sight scentence you refered to was my way of saying that nothing they could have done rightly or wrongly, for better or worse, would be seen as good or popular. In other words. I was conceeding the point.

<I'd be intrested to know how many there are.

It's not a score-card, but it does waste time that could be spent balancing out the tweaks you're bitching about this very moment, but hey, Pro needs to count his Anon posts, good job. *thumbs up!!

<If you want to be honest. I often make posts that start a lot of stir with out anything beyond my initial input.

I've been telling you that for years, and I believe it is collectively apparent to the masses, more now than before I would imagine, but always apparent.

<This tells me that while I may not win popularity contests, I'm at least touching on hot topics.

That contest was long lost my friend, looong lost. Throwing up baseless complaints without any context what-so-ever has a name, it's called spam, and it's annoying. Thanks for being annoying.

<I'm still of the opinion that these changes were't needed, whether they do or do not affect me.

Noted. Glad so much time was wasted simply to give you a "friend" to talk to for a few posts, being you don't care either way about the debate, you just want to start #### for your own pathetic entertainment.

I'm not really sure why you are complaining if you never use teleport. I'm almost as anally retentive as Nepenthe when it comes to perfectly aligned 100%s. Teleport was the *ONLY* spell I would *NOT* spam to 100 because I knew that it will rocket up when I go searching the land to PK all your characters.

Sucks to be you because you never used teleport. Sucks to be me because I did use it. As they say though, better to have loved and lost... (Truth be told, I'll still teleport just as much, I'll just con-die a lot quicker :P)

Perfect time to roll an assassin.

I'm pointing out that somebody felt a need to change a skill/spell/consequence to the negative when just leaving it alone would have had no affect on how the skill was used.

As far as Wilhath goes... yeah, you got me, I lied about carrying teleport potions. (Sarcasm)

>I'm pointing out that somebody felt a need to change a
>skill/spell/consequence to the negative when just leaving it
>alone would have had no affect on how the skill was used.

Because the risk involved in teleport was too low. And your claim assumes that the change is a negative one. I disagree with this assumption. I believe this makes teleport more interesting a spell. Now it is possible to have a more genuine adventure using teleport.

...either you're lying (which I tend to see as the more likely) or you're bitching about something that has absolutely no impact on you. Heh.

>I have carried teleport potions on my person, but have only
>used one once in years.

In other words, it's not worth much or anything. Teleport is an extremely useful spell. There is a reason why many consider the art of escaping an easy one in CF, even when you have claimed it to be a challenging art. Teleport is a large part of that reason.

>Why?
>
>Because I was afraid of a Mob death, so much so that I would
>run my ass off to the last before I used it.

This risk is negligible at hero, where any smart teleport user has bash protections etc. up. In the past, you have been able to recall out from bad teleports. I can't recall the last time I died to a bad teleport, but I think it was a lowbie death(some mage of mine died after trying to run home via Witch Wood after teleport taking him to the path leading to Spiderhaunt. That was my own stupidity, not a fault of teleport).

You haven't noticed it since you've been avoiding teleport like you say, but teleport has been extremely safe to use. Now it might almost have the risk you apparently thought it to have. It's a small tweak, not a drastic change. I'm pretty sure that it won't teleport you straight into a death trap or something like that.

Feel free to re-read Nep's posts that explain the uses of teleport if you want. This isn't a meaningless change since the rest of us used teleport a lot, even as a walking replacement. And I don't think that Imms have any agenda against you, they just explained it and didn't have anything to say beyond 'STFU noob. You don't understand what you are talking about' after you kept disagreeing without valid arguments.

My advice is to take their advice and withdraw from this particular conversation. The only thing this post reveals is that you are fairly clueless in what comes to teleport. My other advice is to make a better use of teleport.

Lots of complaining here without any solid context.

Is it that hard to concieve teleport is not a spell designed for travel, but a spell designed as a 911 call to get out of dodge?

With my last few characters, I was a good example of what Kastellyn is talking about in how it is not as risky as it used to be. Years ago, one, maybe two teleports, and anything more felt like russian rulette. My last couple shifters, I teleported "everywhere" because I thought it safer than walking. This change is supposed to be a bit painful, but for a reason. Teleport is not a safe button, and should not be confused as one.


"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclination, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams

>the fun factor for ~me~ as a player, is
>teleporting around to find new areas to explore when I have no
>enemies/friends around. I do (well, did) this a LOT. Now I'll
>not risk it. Simply due to the fact it may mean death. I was
>totally fine with teleporting into a nasty mob which
>~probably~ means death, because at least I could escape...but
>a non teleporting/wording no escape room...?

I'm not convinced this makes the idea of teleporting as an exploration aid worse so much as different. I'll explain:

I don't see us running around suddenly flagging a bunch of deathtrap rooms so you can teleport in but not teleport or recall out. I can think of one or two of those that basically already existed, i.e., you'd teleport in and die instantly, so no teleporting/recalling out. I don't really see us making more.

So what you've got, more realistically, is this:

1) You can teleport into some areas you could never teleport into before. I mean, okay, you might be semi-stuck there on arrival -- but if you're teleporting around to learn new places and explore, this isn't necessarily something you care about.

2) You can teleport out of some areas that you could never teleport/word/gate/tesseract out of before. This gives you an exploration/escape possibility you didn't have before.

3) Yes, your risk in teleporting has increased... but that risk isn't necessarily one of death. In a lot of cases, especially for higher level characters, it's more one of, you risk teleporting into a place you have to walk out of the hard way before you teleport again. If you're teleporting to mess around and explore or teleporting because you're in serious danger of dying if you don't evacuate your area immediately, this is not a big deal. If you're teleporting because it used to be faster than walking, now maybe it isn't. It's more of a gamble.

Having hit this the first time.

Thinking hard about changes is what I do before I complain. There's ways to take advantage, and there's ways you block your mind to possibilities.

Hitting the panic button gives you an instant disadvantage in the game because it closes your mind to the new possibilities these changes open up. A lot of the time they're for just one class and so its easy to focus on. Sometimes, they can affect a lot and it'll take time to think it through.

I see a 'teleport' where airforms with a plague wand just became nastier. Or a nasty gaunter gained an advantage with word-but-no-teleport possibilities. Woot.

Yhorian.

>Hitting the panic button gives you an instant disadvantage in
>the game because it closes your mind to the new possibilities
>these changes open up.

It also means (general comment here and not a GinGa comment) that you're going to be taken a lot less seriously when you do come across something important that we missed or something that legitimately does need to change. Boy who cried wolf, yo!

I mean, yeah, we're as a staff often instinctively defensive. But you have to admit that a lot of the objections to anything are crazy crap. It's hard not to get a little desensitzed there.

Although not completely warm and fuzzy, I'm at least not all doom and gloom any longer on the topic.

I really was looking for this sort of answer, thanks.

The initial picture I had in my mind was: "c teleport" (prayin' to god...) "You are caught in the rift between reality and nonexistence with no chance of escape... blah blah blah". Or whatever. You have to understand that almost bar none everyone's worse peeve is probably death traps. I liked that teleporting into these things wasn't previously a risk worth worrying about. Though I must admit I've already swore up and down that there's some skewed coefficient in the teleport function to land you in whitecloaks at least once outta ten ;-P.

I don't have any problem with cursing myself for landing way on up in the underdark or something where I have to spend thirty minutes walking out through tough mobs. That's a significant deterrent. Or cool if one chooses to look at it that way. Landing in the avalanche? Naw... that's cheese.

Although that might or might not now be the case, I think I get the more thorough reasoning. And again I appreciate it, for what it's worth.

Ok, now's the part where feel I have to admit I must have absolutely abused teleport all to hell with a certain sort of character that could previously teleport all over the main continent with zero chance of ANY sort of problems whatsoever. I've teleported RIGHT ontop of people while they're sleeping and whacked them (after literally 100's of teleports in a row, seriously). I've done the "ok, I want to go here... teleport repeat until I'm within a few spammable steps." I get it. This is to prevent people like me from doing this. No offense taken. It would probably annoy the crap outta me from the other side. All though most teleporting was innocent exploring, I have been guilty of nefariously using it from time to time.

Again, I can see this as a boon to villagers. And warriors, rangers, assassins in general. Might prevent me from even bothering teleport potions w/ my lowbie, but I'll not be so snappy on that call just yet.

Carry on and thanks again for the explanations.

Oh! Almost forgot... is the up side to this one that I'll now land right ontop of a barrier source from time to time? Joking. But seriously...