As it stands now, it appears that all a bard has to do is tune their instrument, sing symphonic echoes, and then laugh at anyone fighting them in melee after it lands.

Am I missing something here? Having full abs, around a hundred damroll, around 1600hp, at my inner, and resisting mental, and a single elf bard can tool my character, take our item and then laugh? Am I missing something here? Heh. It's not even as if the bard in question got the drop on me or such. I was prepared. I just don't get what options are supposed to be available for a fight like this. Someone who knows more about CF want to enlighten me?

Does tune's effects on an instrument show up in compare? For example, could a tuned instrument compare better to another instrument than that same instrument untuned?

Symphonic echoes has been changed slightly since it was When You Don't See Me.

First off, Symphonic's repertoire effectiveness levels ranks roughly like this from best to worst:

Comedic
Romantic
Tragic
Epic

You were fighting an elf bard with 21 chr, possibly an instrument not only suited to romantic but it might have even been limited, which, in the case of instruments levels 40+ can also arbitrarily boost song levels, (this feature has been normal since before the revamp)

So, he's basically (assuming he was in the Romantic repertoire which elf bards also get a bonus to, I don't play elf bards so I can't say if it's a bonus to land the song better or a straight up song level boost) using his absolute best chance on you. Tune gives your song levels an arbitrary song level boost, about 10+ levels.

So yeah, he basically gave it his absolute best shot and punched through your resist mental to land the song. You also miss more when under it's effects depending on the repertoire and song level but it typically remains roughly a 33% chance you'll get anything off on any target. Resist mental doesn't just drop mental damage but it can improve your saves against a song. However, maladiction songs are vastly more useful on a foe using resist mental than damage songs, because their effects aren't reduced once they land. The damage reduction on songs from simply using resist mental is simply ridiculous to begin with, and add in even a tiny bit more damage reduction and you're basically fighting an invoker, which a bard has a snowball's chance in hell of beating due to all the damage reduction and a bard has no constant source of damage flowing from their melee weapon like a warrior or assassin does.

In my opinion Tune needs to work more like Endure i.e. the song levels shouldn't be an arbitrary 10. It should start at five and gain an extra song level every 5% in the skill, (80 = 6, 85 = 7, 90 = 8, 95 = 9 100 = 10-15 to curb the tough learning rate of Tune, give more than one song level on the tail end.) similar to how Endure's saves improve. Five song levels is already a pretty beefy improvement in itself for the level you get tune at and would still be a fight-turner at 75% even at hero. Bards should be using it whenever they think about it, similar to how Lore and Endure need to be used to get the skill %'s up. Tune + chr + repertoire + instrument, is a bard's complicated but infinitely more controllable version of Spellcraft. Thus, Tune shouldn't be giving level 30 bards a level 40 song level at 75% skill, Spellcraft doesn't do this for mages at 75% I'm reasonably sure of this. Also, you should be able to learn from mistakes on the skill, as hard as it is to learn.

.
"I have to admit I hate pretty much all of these ideas. :)" - Nepenthe, on New Ranger Skills

Tune also does a lot less than you think it does. :p

Songs that absolutely would not land while in Tragic repertoire landed (sometimes) while using Tune. Symphonic echoes was a big one that would virtually never land (on a target with 20 int or above) without Tune. Granted, as an Outlander with camo, I had alot of time on my hands to play with things but I only stayed in that repertoire. There really was no reason to switch strategies, as just about anything else I could have tried would have been far less effective than using basically a variant of the ranger snare tactic.

Have you played a bard all the way through since Tune came in, Nep? It seems like Tune came in while you were playing Cabdru. It wasn't the be all end all of the class, but targets were far less likely to save against a song sung using tune.

>Have you played a bard all the way through since Tune came in,
>Nep?

Nope! However, I discussed the original design with Valg, and I'm assuming he didn't maverick off and make it drastically stronger than we discussed.

You vastly overestimate what Tune does. And what instruments do, for that matter.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

However I still believe bards are damn buff as a class, specifically because of the lack of protections from their songs.

I mean deafen doesn't prevent you from hearing bard songs? Might I inquire why?

I just can't see a pure melee class ever beating a smart, prepped, well-geared bard at hero, and I shudder to think what a rager does against them if they don't have deathblow.

I guess each class has strengths and weaknesses :)

>However I still believe bards are damn buff as a class,
>specifically because of the lack of protections from their
>songs.
>
>I mean deafen doesn't prevent you from hearing bard songs?
>Might I inquire why?

It's been answered before. But basically the answer is that if deafen prevented bard songs from working, then bards would be pathetically easy to kill by absolutely everyone.

Heh.

I think a deafened bard shouldn't be able to sing, but what diku, smug or one of the other big permas did is deafen there group and then gank down a hapless bard.

I mean if a DIKU perma had to use funny tactics...You know what, I am done talking about bards. Now I am rolling one. I will report after!

>I just can't see a pure melee class ever beating a smart,
>prepped, well-geared bard at hero, and I shudder to think what
>a rager does against them if they don't have deathblow.

I can't recall having much trouble as a melee class with any bard except Gerylanst, and he was a special case for a lot of reasons in my mind.

To a degree, yeah, if the bard preps to the gills and runs up on the melee class that's going to be rough on them. Equally I've gotten the drop on tough bards with warrior/thief/assassin/ranger/a-p/etc. and smoked them without them getting a command. From a certain sense, a bard is very tough; from another, they're sort of a mage that doesn't get word (exactly) or protective shield.

Sounds like someone is a fire a-p. :P

Tune doesn't do as much as you think it does, but symphonic echoes sure is mean. It's easily one of the strongest weapons in the bard arsenal.

With a decent weapon, full abs and at my inner, is it intended for me to have no chance once that song lands?

I mean if I am not a fire AP with a 300 charge weapon, of course :)

I'd have figured the nastiest symphonic echo would cut your abilities by about 50%. So if once symphonic echoes lands you aren't able to beat the bard with one hand tied behind your back, yes it means you don't stand a chance.

It's definitely a bad match up for you. In my experience with bards if a fire-giant doesn't mostly lag out a hero bard, the bard is probably going to win. You might have ABS, but the bard has an equal chance of aura, shield, and bard resist, so damage reduction is probably on slightly in your favor.

Also, level difference has a profound affect on songs much like spells. So, if you were giving up 9 levels as a fire giant AP which is often the case, that's going to hurt you a lot.

Lastly, I think that preferred repertoire bonuses, songs under specific repertoires, and instruments bonuses for a given repertoire in total make a bigger difference than tune.

IMO, if you want to tool bards, play a dark elf.

Having been there and done that... it's not as bad as all that, if you're doing it right. I know, I make it look like bash or iceball wins every time but sometimes you have to be a little more suave. ;)

Your tactics are more important than your preps in this case. The biggest danger in fighting a bard as a fire a-p is that grand nocturne will just smoke you straight up, and you *do* need a certain level of prep to stand up in that case... but at your inner against a solo bard this shouldn't be much of an issue. It can be if the A-P is fairly asleep at the wheel and the bard is slick, but... anyway.

With a little luck it's possible to win that fight melee style, but more likely you need to win it using your spells. There are a couple ways to do this, and depending on the bard's own setup and tactics one may be more effective than another.

"I know, I make it look like bash or iceball wins every time but sometimes you have to be a little more suave. "

I was suave! I faceslashed. I crippling striked! I tried to deafen. Heh. It was like trying to ice skate uphill.

"With a little luck it's possible to win that fight melee style, but more likely you need to win it using your spells."

Question for you. Would a bard played by you, and properly prepped and dressed etc lose to a fire giant AP at any point?

>Question for you. Would a bard played by you, and properly
>prepped and dressed etc lose to a fire giant AP at any point?

If I fought enough of them, definitely.

I've said for years (and still think it's basically true) that the bard - fire a-p matchup is a strange one because looks bad to me from the perspective of playing either character.

To give you the easiest example, no matter what the bard does with enlarge/reduce, the A-P if matching it can realistically start bashing before symphonic echoes lands and command deny the bard clear through to death. You might ask, what are the odds of that happening, but a plurality of my deaths across all character types are roughly of this form. There definitely are some other situations in which I can see myself biting it playing the bard without me making any major mistakes, but that's the one that seems to come up the most for me.

"To give you the easiest example, no matter what the bard does with enlarge/reduce, the A-P if matching it can realistically start bashing before symphonic echoes lands and command deny the bard clear through to death."

I had 610/617 or whatever weight, and *edited item* that adds weight. While I did get some good bashes in, it was in no way command denial clear through death. I asked Skiltore this same question and he stated not one person ever perma-lagged him. Lets not even point out bash is a dex check and elf bards are significantly higher then a fire ap in the dex department.

My comments reflect that. :)

I was permalagged twice. At the time when I posted about being permalagged, my thoughts were set on bash. Skiltore was never permalagged by bash. Skiltore was permalagged by bearcharge twice, although neither of those were in his prime and he wasn't prepped for either of them.

But I do think it's HIGHLY unlikely that a prepped bard would get permalagged by a single giant before they landed symphonic echoes.

Edit - I should quantify this a bit. If you're taking 400 hp a round in damage, it's quite easy to get permalagged to death. If the bard is prepped enough so that they're taking less than 50 hp per round on average, I think it's unlikely they'll get permalagged to death by bash.

It's a lot harder to perma-lag someone that can absorb more damage. Also, Skiltore would have been able to use Imperial Defense.

When it comes to me getting ####ed? Inconceivably high.

When it comes to me ####ing other people? Astronomically low.

I see your point and I don't want to beat a dead horse. Thanks for the feedback and if I ever find myself with a fire ap vs. an elf bard again, I will try some different stuff.

>To give you the easiest example, no matter what the bard does
>with enlarge/reduce, the A-P if matching it can realistically
>start bashing before symphonic echoes lands and command deny
>the bard clear through to death.

Happened once to me as Honeldin(half-elf bard) against AP, I think it was Cabdru. Also, twice against an orc.

I don't think that problem is in tune but in your race and race of bard. As Greddarh I was trying to avoid any fights with bards , unless I knew that bards are stupid :). Anyway a bit of statistic:

PK Deaths by Class
VS. warrior 3 -- Died at low ranks.
VS. paladin 1 -- Boss came to me, so can count it as lost link.
VS. bard 3 -- Ohh they really owned me with nightmare song :)
VS. shaman 1 -- I was an idiot.
VS. conjurer 1 -- Died in lost link.

If you know that your enemie (bard) is smart, best thing you can do is - teleport! :). Because you will not bash him till death.. oh okey may be one of 10 times you will but I don't think so :) because fully preped bard with good eq can stand long enough till you fail bash or will not permolag him and after that bard will land distort(resist mental will not help a lot). If your enemie is an elf.. you can forget about casting deafen on him as fire giant(yes you have chance to land it but...). Not everyone had higher int as Cabdru did ;) by the way.. Nep did you get just +1 int or more? :))

> Not everyone had higher int as Cabdru did ;)
>by the way.. Nep did you get just +1 int or more? :))

Just +1. Fear the crushing duergar-like or cloud-giant-like intellect! (Still piss-poor wisdom and vulnerable to mental attacks, though.)

Decked bard vs decked AP:

http://www.qhcf.net/cforum/logs/vpost.pl?75512

What are your comments in the light of this?

My comment is that it physically hurts me to see Fire A-P being played this badly after I just done showed y'all how. :(

Shadowmaster, man, I think you're an all right guy and I hate to dog you this way, but ouch... the faceslash is a slick move, but other than that I'm not sure what you're trying to do here. For the first thing, where's the summoning?

n/t

Probably someday. :) Right now there's too much CF stuff waiting on specifically me to address... like cloud of wasps!

Glad to see you are looking at skills such a cloud of wasps to make sure they are not overpowered.

They didn't bother me (a healer PWNs wasps) but for a melee character, they are pretty much death on a stick.

Yeah, I think in a lot of cases they're fine, but in a few situations they were a little too much... so I've tried to tinker with those situations without making it weak across the board.

We'll see once that code is live how I'm doing.

as there is nothing worse than some chjeap bastard human beastmaster outlander casting wasps on you with 7-8 ranks advantage and you are toasted. At higher ranks you have more hps to get to a place to rid yourself of the wasps.

-----Abernyte

P.S. Also the echo says they bite you when it should really be sting. Mosquitoes is fine for the echo though.

I tried plenty of other spells and they weren't landing. Keep in mind, I had no idea how hurt I was, so I ran to the healer just to be safe.

Not sure how much summon would have helped, she seemed to ignore the archmage. Certainly a thought though, was a rough matchup either way.

n/t

I always forgot to use them though, too, so I can only say so much.

I wasn't talking about summoning Meyrshal. :)

I mean, it's one thing if iceball was a major part of your strategy for this fight. I've rolled that way too, depending on circumstances... but in this case I think that might have been the smart move if you didn't want your cabal to be raided.