What is this? You give ragers the ability to call spellbane? I was attacked by an arial, and I cast forked lightning on him, and it just hit me, it didn't even hit him. I mean WTF? That's BS. The only time it did hit him was from a shocking touch, but the lightning didn't even touch him, and the one time it did hit him all it did was a devestates. THAT'S ALL IT DID? he's vuln to lightning and all that spell did to him was devestates.

This has made my invoker pretty much worthless against a rager. Why did they get this "skill" This makes every rager so much better than any magi, especially an invoker. It's like they needed even more of an advantage over us magi anyways, but this is just too much. I put in all these hours training for my spells, and getting the next spell, and ragers aren't even hurt by the dang spell. What gives? How can a rager have a spell that totally blocks a spell from a magi, in this cast, an invoker.

I'm sorry, but this is just BS.

I've been there pal. You've probably not been playing cf long enough to remember an invoker by the name of Diarmuid. He was the leader of the Masters cabal, which was a mage cabal. It was around his time when the ragers were split into the current three paths of scout, defender and berserker. Prior to that there were just ragers, all with the same cabal powers.

Well, when that happened, I had a very tough time fighting ragers, and to this day (despite Nep's comments to the contrary, sorry Nep! :P) I am convinced that something beefed up spellbane, making it work on every spell, not just some percentage of spells. (I do think it was inadvertent, not a deliberate beef up, by the way.) It made me very angry because, as you wrote, an invoker's power comes from casting spells, and if no spells go through, well... right.

But you see my friend, things are not as they were then, and things are not as you see them now. Since that time I've played only one other invoker, but I've played arguably more ragers than anyone else. It is because of my rather extensive rager experience that I can say to you that spellbane is not nearly as effective as you think. First: it does no damage reduction at all. It's not dam redux. It works like a counter strike to a spell, meaning instead of the spell going onto the rager, the rager gets a few free hits on the mage. If the spellbane doesn't work, the spell goes through to the rager without any damage or other reduction.

Second, it does not work nearly as much as you seem to think. Like I said, I think it was somehow brought back to normal after that unfortunately beef up six years ago (my theory). Either way, I have lived enough ragers, and posted enough logs on Dioxides (do you know that website?) which will show you spells working on my ragers. Invoker spells. If you wish, I can go find specific logs and you can read them, seeing spells (both directed and area) working on my ragers.

Third, invokers have far more versatility now than they did back then; you have more than merely damage spells at your disposal. Knowing as you do now that a rager can stop some of your spells and damage you a bit instead, you can think about when/where/how to attack them. As you fight ragers more (or, better yet, play a rager or two) you'll find out that sometimes a rager cannot spellbane at all, or cannot spellbane certain types of spells, sometimes, and other little tricks. I won't give them all away here for free of course, but if you give even one rager character a chance you'll learn very quickly on your own.

Bottom line: spellbane doesn't actually "bane" (meaning work) as often as you think, and you have more options than you think. Play a rager and see!

comments: Fight them without the head. Ragers are such utter meat without the head it makes me sad.

Wait till you get to hero invoker with all your spells. Once you got your shields, you can outdamage most hero warriors, with a few basic preps (prot vs align and stoneskin, both really easy to get), and shields will protect you from most forms of lag, which is what really owns the mage classes. Most mages don't have this. I'll admit that ragers (with the head) have an absolutely gross advantage at any level under 45 or so, where there are less prep options and class strategies available to people, but after that exploiting their weaknesses is the simplest thing in the world. Maybe you haven't seen piles of rager corpses next to a thief and a bard or a healer and a giant bash spec, but if you roll one up I think you will.

Bards are really lovely for ####ing ragers up, by the way. The only ways to reduce the effectivenes from bard songs that I know of are forbidden to ragers. Want to vent? Roll up an Bard, join Empire, get Imperial Defense and a few easy quick preps and stomp them into the ground.

Lastly: you think YOUR spells suck against them? At least you can hit them with area spells. Try pulling out a transmuter against ragers. You can't do jack #### against them when they have spellbane. And trannies at their pinnacle don't get nearly as much innate dam redux as invokers at their highest potential do.

Don't worry, be happy, c word when you see a rager incoming.

It's the quickest way to change your perspective on both sides of the coin without being able to complain about either.

and yes this is a suggestion that doesn't require A/B/S wands. You will absolutely not be able to launch another tirade like this if you have both chars going at once. But if you do keep these tirades up you'll be hated quicker than Josiah.

Ragers have to actually successfully save against your spell before they can bane it, and they can still save against the spell and NOT bane it. Luckily he has resisting up, which reduces ALL damage almost as much as Sanctuary (but not quite) AND your spell damage has halved to begin with.

Yes your elements will mess arials up. It won't mess arials up if you don't use your brain for once and use non-targetting elemental spells, since invokers have the absolute best chance against ragers. I'd know, having played a single scout myself. I'm not going to tell you what class the scout was because in this case it doesn't matter.

There are certain conditions and rager paths that can evade area spells too, but the success rate for that is never anywhere near spellbanes (assuming they're geared for saves and damage properly).

Trust me dude, this isn't a threat, it's a promise. You do NOT want to ever post a tirade like this again. Ever. Asking how to get around spellbane would have been a better start than ranting. You don't want to be known as the second Josiah.

Depending on what rager type he is, I think you have some spells he can't bane. The low damage also has nothing to do with spellbane. He may have been resisting lightning (through gear). Ragers also get a damage reduction power that's pretty substantial. But then again, so do you (wands). Imagine how pissed you'd be if you were an arial rager and an invoker got you in quicksand, earthbound you, then proceded to blast you with a water spell you can't bane, all the while you're hitting him for "wound" because he has full aura, shield and barrier. Probably more pissed than you are right now.

Oh please, do not sit there and try and theory fight me. You gave ragers a skill that is a great damage reduction without the need for spells from a wand? They dont even need to go through the trouble of finding a wand all they have to do is call their ability. This is complete BS.

It doesn't matter what kind lightning resistant equipment an arial is wearing, it's a matter of fact that lightning and water should seriously mess them up. I'm perfected forked lightning and I did devestates on him? A freaking devestates? I haven't done that since level 1. This is complete BS. AN arial invoker casting forked lightning on an arial with NO SANC on and I did a devestates. What in the world do you not see wrong here?

You have seriously screwed up the magi with this "skill" It takes so much more time and skill to kill someone as an invoker, and it's all nullified by some skill that doesn't need to be given to battleragers. You dont learn a skill that makes you more tolerable to magic? How do you LEARN a skill that makes you take no damage from a spell. COme on! You talk about balance, and then you do this. Invokers already have a huge disadvantage over any fighting class, and now you have this. It's pointless to play my invoker when all I can do against a rager is what? You want me to adhesive web them, and fight with hands?

Dont sit there and tell me that I'm a newbie to it because i'm not. I saw first hand how horrible this "skill" is. I did fireball, and it blocked and hit me with a maims, another lightning bolt, blocked and hit me. I mean good lord, are we just trying to screw over all magi?

Oh wait, maybe if I go find wands of barrier, wands of haste, potions of haste, giant strength, shrink, ect.. then I'll have a chance. Wrong, i still wont be able to do my spells, and you can't fight a warrior type without spells, and you've negated our spells by giving ragers this "skill." I mean think about it, how do you train your body to build up a resistance to a spell that you are vulnerable to?

This is far from balanced.

Just from this post I can tell you don't really give a #### what anyone else has to say about this, it's unfair to you and that's that. Nevermind you obviously haven't played a rager before. Or an invoker. This skill is #### and completely ruins yours. Have you tried pillar of lightning? Nope, you haven't. Fireball? Nope. Cone of cold? Nope. What do all of these things have in common? Well, you figure it out, maybe these unbalanced ragers won't seem that way after you actually play with them for awhile. Just try not to get assassinated while figuring it out or you might find something else that isn't balanced.

First off, some classes are for a certain type of player. An invoker doesn't need A/B/S to fight non-ragers. They can stand toe-to-toe with just about everyone except battle ragers without anything but the bare minumums of the class. If you want to compete against battle ragers, then put the freaking time in to gain some knowledge about the game. You're obviously criticizing something that you know jack#### about.

Now, for some tips, even though you probably don't deserve any, because you're being a ####tard.

The only ragers who can dodge area spells are scouts, i.e. spell evasion. All other ragers cannot spellbane area spells (i.e. cone of cold, fireball, etc. etc.) Forked lightning requires a target. Pillar of the heavens does not. Sometimes trying to exploit a vulnerability ISN'T the end all answer. If I'm an invoker fighting a fire giant in the high levels, you can bet your ass I'm probably not going to use cold attacks on them just for the simple fact that they are more than likely wearing or using something that makes them resistant to it (in this case, bringing the damage down to normal, like fighting a human). Try thinking outside the box. And if you stop being a whiny bitch, you might just think of something rational to do. For instance, Isildur mentioned geyser. But that too requires a target. So a rager would spellbane it. Unless you were to think outside the box, and aim the spell at something else other than the intended target, thus hitting the rager without them spellbaning it.

FYI, a fire giant wearing something that gives resist cold wouldn't be at the level of a normal human, they would resist cold, period. It doesn't work on a slide scale, you're resisting, vulnerable or normal, and in that order I believe. Same with any other race/vuln. The only thing I have found to be exempt from this is water vulns, I've yet to see anything (other than complete immunity) that makes me think you can resist it, including water breathing and anything that gives it. It's possible I just haven't noticed, but after... 8 years?... of invoker water spells I think I would have.

Fire giant = vulnerable to cold / 1 step above normal

Human = Normal. Not vulerable to anything / 0

Fire giant wearing resist cold item = normal / 0

Human wearing resist cold item = below normal / -1 (truly resistant)

I guess that's just how I always viewed it to work. There's probably a lot more technicality involved, but I don't really give a hoot. This theory has been working for a long time for me.

Not a flame. Just trying to give a more simple way of putting it.

Karel is correct; you are incorrect.

Think he may have missed what I was actually saying, sounded like he thought I was getting all technical, so I'll justdo a simple clarification. Using the previous example:

Fire giant vs cold = 1
Human vs cold = 0
Fire gint withresist cold = -1

Basically, whatever someone is vulnerable to, if they manage to get a resist it changes them to resist, not vuln+resist = noraml. It's all or nothing.

Really? I didn't know that. Well hell, that's a better deal for fire giants than I originally thought.

Yep, or any other race. Why all those dragon hides are so well liked by so many races =P

Dont sit there and tell me that I'm a newbie to it because i'm not.

Losing this attitude is your best first step towards improvement as a player. You're saying a lot of things which strongly suggest a lack of experience in this game.

Spellbane has been in the game a long time. Magi have developed tactics to counter it, as people are trying to tell you. If you think this is a "theory fight", I'll point you to the Premium Battlefield, where you'll likely be able to find a host of invokers who were very effective against BattleRagers.

How do you LEARN a skill that makes you take no damage from a spell.

It's not a skill. It's a cabal power, contingent on Battle holding their Item of Power. Yes, this is consistent with everything in the Battle philosophy.

It doesn't matter what kind lightning resistant equipment an arial is wearing, it's a matter of fact that lightning and water should seriously mess them up.

False.

Invokers already have a huge disadvantage over any fighting class...

False. Review the Battlefield for proof.

It's pointless to play my invoker when all I can do against a rager is what? You want me to adhesive web them, and fight with hands?

It's an excellent spell in the proper situation, but not nearly your only practical option.

You gave ragers a skill that is a great damage reduction without the need for spells from a wand?

False. If the spell landed, Spellbane did nothing to reduce the damage, beyond an improvement in saving throws. Being that it's Battle's job to fight magi, the smart ones prepare with excellent saving throws well beyond this moderate bonus.

We've seen both sides of the invoker/berserker matchup, and I don't foresee any changes along the lines you suggest.

Otherwise, if you're just going to curse up a storm and flame anyone who replies to you, I'm very happy to make our forum community one member smaller. Lose the attitude, starting now.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>You gave ragers a skill that is a great damage reduction without
>the need for spells from a wand?

Considering I'm not on staff, I didn't give ragers jack sh|t. And guess what- paladins have a skill that's great damage reduction without the need for spells from a wand. Oh no!

>It doesn't matter what kind lightning resistant equipment an
>arial is wearing, it's a matter of fact that lightning and
>water should seriously mess them up.

Water still does. Lightning does, unless they're wearing a gear that makes them resist lightning. That's what "resist" means: you're resistant to it. As in "no longer vulnerable".

>arial invoker casting forked lightning on an arial with NO
>SANC on and I did a devestates. What in the world do you not
>see wrong here?

Assuming he had resist lightning, along with rager resist, and may have saved against your spell on top of that, I see absolutely nothing wrong with you doing devastates. Invoker isn't the best matchup against ragers. They're "mage fighters" for a reason.

>You have seriously screwed up the magi with this "skill" It
>takes so much more time and skill to kill someone as an
>invoker, and it's all nullified by some skill that doesn't
>need to be given to battleragers.

Okay, so you say ragers don't need resist or spellbane. What would you give them in return?

>Invokers already have a huge disadvantage over any fighting
>class, and now you have this.

This is perhaps the most incorrect thing I've heard in a long time. Invokers without wands have a tough fight against *some* fighting classes. With wands they own. Period.

>It's pointless to play my invoker when all I can do
>against a rager is what?

So it's pointless to play an invoker if you can't easily solo kill ragers (which are designed to fight mages) without using wands?

>You want me to adhesive web them, and fight with hands?

Well, you could adhesive web them for a start. Then you could grease them so they start dropping their weapons. Then you could maybe try to land an immolate, or just skip that and start spamming your un-baneable (depending on what type of rager he is) water spell.

>Dont sit there and tell me that I'm a newbie to it because i'm not.

This post is so crazy it's crossed over to "troll post" territory.

>Oh wait, maybe if I go find wands of barrier, wands of haste,
>potions of haste, giant strength, shrink, ect.. then I'll have
>a chance. Wrong, i still wont be able to do my spells, and
>you can't fight a warrior type without spells

Here's a thought. Why don't you put your spells on someone else then gang the rager down with that guy?

I'll leave you with this little gem. This guy is a storm giant, rager berserker sword spec. The invoker is a drow.

http://www.qhcf.net/cforum/arch.pl?forum-2002/logs?30550

>How can a rager have a spell that totally blocks a spell
>from a magi, in this cast, an invoker.

Being a battlerager has serious limitations, and spellbane is
not an "I Win" button against invokers. The ability is not a
new one by any means and invokers have been dealing with it
(more successfully than many other magicians) for years.

I'd wager if you'd asked any hero-level invoker how to deal
with it in-game, you'd gain a whole new perspective.

You're not in as bad a shape as your recent experience suggests.

Qaledus
qaledus@carrionfields.com

Please play the game for a while and/or search the forum for previous threads on spellbane to better understand its strengths and limitations.