Please, for god sake....

Remove, change, move up level.. SOMETHING... Crimson Scourge is the worst spell ever...

It is either too low level, cost not enough, succeed too much or last too long... Or all the above..

It is the lowest spell which GARANTIES kills. Plus, is it deeply abused for cheap-kills... When it last 9 rounds, and reduce HP by 20 percent by hour, there's no way in hell you can live that unless you already are near a healer.

Yes it may look like whinning, but when you get killed three times in one hour by the same guy who's 10 level above you, and who's only tactic is : Flee;c sleep;c 'crimson...

And no I'm not *completly* without PK skill. I did everything I could to keep him in fight, but when Bash lags ONE the opponent round and you TWO or THREE, there's no much you can do... And again the Necro uses same tactic...

Anyway.. I'm off to play something else than a warrior for a while... Each and every of my last warriors were NEUTRAL (Cloud giants, svirf, and such) and all of them were blatantly random PKed repeatedly... I'm probably not good enough with them I suppose.. But anyway, that wasn't the point of this post..

Thanks to that particular Necro for screwing chars. See you around.

While you seem somewhat agitated, I'll say this :

You're playing a warrior. The creme de la creme of lowbie characters to be. If necromancers pose a severe threat, run away from them. I guarantee you this is what most mages have to do when it comes to warriors.

Aside from that, Valg's on the money on this one, but bear in mind the game is not supposed to be a matter of you being able to beat everyone with bash.

Especially if you're a cloud warrior. Unless necro guy is stupid enough to be bashable, chances are you're going to get worked over sooner or later if you're staying there. Necro has a hand full of cloud weaknesses in his arsenal.

If a character, say midbie necromancer, looks dominant to you, we recommend you play that character and demonstrate to us how dominant it is. Broadly speaking, I don't consider midbie necromancer at the top of the food chain, but maybe I'm wrong. I can be quite flexible provided the right data.

That said, frequently if you do try to play the "overpowered" combo you find out that it has weaknesses that you did not exploit. This can be either a learning experience or an excuse to go off on a new rant about how they are underpowered. One of those options makes you a better player.

I did everything I could to keep him in fight, but when Bash lags ONE the opponent round and you TWO or THREE, there's no much you can do

Wait until the ranks where Bash doesn't work at all on necromancer. You may wish to investigate other tools in your toolbox at some point.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>If a character, say midbie necromancer, looks dominant to
>you, we recommend you play that character and demonstrate to
>us how dominant it is. Broadly speaking, I don't consider
>midbie necromancer at the top of the food chain, but maybe I'm
>wrong. I can be quite flexible provided the right data.

One comment about this argument, since it's brought up fairly often. While "broadly speaking" the mid-ranked necromancer might not be top of the food chain, in certain scenarios he may still be grossly "overpowered". The mitigating factor is that the same mid-ranked necromancer is grossly "underpowered" in other situations. But if you're one of the classes this necro matches up extremely well against...woe unto you.

To bring it back to this guy's post, if he were to play a mid-ranked necromancer and find himself in a matchup against the same combo he's playing now, maybe he would dominate. Does that mean the class is dominant "broadly speaking"? No way. But it may mean that, under certain circumstances, necros really are dominant, and that this guy may not be entirely full of it when he complains about not having a chance.

To the original poster, here's what I'd do if I were you:

1. Carry multiple teleport potions in your inventory.
2. Carry a return potion in your inventory.
3. Carry multiple cure blindness potions in your inventory.
4. Have a moderate amount of cash on hand (~5-10 gold).

If you don't get summoned into a locked/closed room after you're slept:

1. Flee immediately when attacked. Don't spam it, though, or he'll reengage after you flee while your stacked commands are still going through. Type "flee;quaff {whatever}" in your client, then be ready to hit "enter" as soon as he attacks.
2. If you're not cursed (and not in your hometown) then quaff return, heal scourge, heal blindness, and teleport (since he's probably on his way to your hometown). He'll probably curse you, so this is somewhat moot.
3. If you are cursed, teleport immediately after fleeing. Now your priority is to cure the blindness so you can figure out where you are. If you're near a healer (and have any movement left) you can try to walk there. If not, you can teleport again and try to get close to one. At the very least, when you die to the scourge, you'll know where you died so you can hopefully beat the necro to your corpse.
4. Also, pay attention to the curse duration vs. the scourge duration. You don't necessarily have to last until the scourge goes away, you just have to last until curse goes away, at which point you can word and heal it at the healer. One caveat: if you suspect the necro knows your hometown, wording may be a very, very bad idea.
5. If you cure the blindness, you can also hit up other like-minded characters for help. If you're good-aligned, most any goodie healer or paladin would come to your aid. Or bard, pending role-play constraints.

There are also some things you can do to avoid getting slept in the first place:

1. Wear some save vs. spell, even if it means sacrificing hit/dam.
2. Make sure every ranking group you join has at least one person who can detect invis is competant enough to notice approaching enemies.
3. Keep detect invis up (on yourself) as often as you can afford to.
4. Try to assemble ranking groups where every member is in the necro's PK. That may dissuade him from attacking in the first place.

I'm not convinced that anyone(*) with Bash landing for a non-zero result is at a strong disadvantage vs. midbie necromancer.

And if you know he's leading with Sleep, standing still with Detect Invis up and spamming 'murder' (or another quick opener if you have one) is pretty foolproof, especially in terrain than hinders movement, and forces the necromancer to make you fail multiple saves in order to blind you then sleep you.

This bigger issue is usually that people sadly neglect saving throws (and +STR) in favor of minor improvements to their already superior damroll. Good idea for most ranking, not so good for PK.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

(*): Except Rager Applicant, also known as Necromancer food. And even then, the save/pauseforspelllag/bash/pray route isn't bad.

>I'm not convinced that anyone(*) with Bash landing for
>a non-zero result is at a strong disadvantage vs. midbie
>necromancer.

Well, I wasn't necessarily talking about warriors, even though that's what this guy was playing. More along the lines of bards, transmuters, shifters, and possibly invokers. Certain warriors too, though, depending on race and spec.

>And if you know he's leading with Sleep, standing still
>with Detect Invis up and spamming 'murder' (or another
>quick opener if you have one) is pretty foolproof, especially
>in terrain than hinders movement, and forces the necromancer
>to make you fail multiple saves in order to blind you then
>sleep you.

The problem with this is that it assumes the attack-ee knows an attack is coming. The paranoid player may be able to ensure that's the case most of the time, but not all of the time. Especially at middle ranks where it's less feasible to keep detect invis up 24/7. Even *if* the guy has detect invis up 24/7, sooner or later someone's going to get the jump on him. Maybe he'll miss a 'where'. Maybe he has to sleep. Maybe the necro blinds him while he's fighting a mob, then sleeps him when he flees. Etc. Even for skilled players, I'm not sure it's valid to say, "The warrior who takes all reasonable precautions should never have sleep cast on him by a necro."

The fact that a conscientious warrior can prevent sleep being cast on him most of the time is certainly a mitigating factor, but imho that doesn't give you license to totally dismiss the case where the warrior does get slept.

Maybe I'm missing something, but to me, this seems like the argument people frequently use against the "overpoweredness" of assassinate. It basically goes like, "If you're careful, you should never get assassinated." In truth, if you're careful you should only rarely be assassinated, which isn't what they were arguing.

Back to the case of warriors for a sec. Let's assume this guy uses the murder-spam strategy as a solution to the always-tries-to-sleep necro. Here's the problem with that. While spamming murder might prevent the necro from landing sleep most of the time, it incurs very little risk to the "smart" necro. If there's very little risk to the necro, then he can continue to try and try again until eventually it works. Maybe 90% of the time he's forced to retreat. So what. Retreat != failure. Eventually he'll score a sleep, at which point the guy's probably toast.

I don't think the situation's totally hopeless, like the original poster, but I can sort of see his point. Certain warriors (non-giant non-svirf dagger and sword specs, esp. pre-flurry and pre-2nd-spec) are at somewhat of a disadvantage against necromancers, mostly because they don't post much of a "If I try to sleep this guy and fail, he might kill me before I can flee" risk.

>This bigger issue is usually that people sadly neglect saving
>throws (and +STR) in favor of minor improvements to their
>already superior damroll. Good idea for most ranking, not so
>good for PK.

True. Though, I wouldn't say there's a "ton" of saves gear available to the mid-ranked warrior. Some, yes, and quite potent if you can obtain it, but limited enough that most people won't have use of it.

Especially against sleep. I've had necromancers that couldn't land CS on me in 10 tries, but still nail me with sleep first shot right off the bat.

But lucky as hell to do it both times.

I've also been slept and killed by them several times.

I do agree that if you have been slept by a necromancer, crimson scourge (when added to the arsenal of other spells available to the class) is one of the deadliest spells in the game. In fact, if a necromancer successfully gets a warrior slept, I think that is perhaps the pk scenario with the highest likelihood of resulting in a death.

Obviously however, a mid ranked necromancer that fails to get you slept is just a corpse waiting to happen. Using bash under certain scenarios is the absolute best skill at your disposal, but under other scenarios (e.g. low movement lag terrain) it can be farely fatal for the basher rather than the bashee.

Nothing during my time of playing cf has made me feel more overpowered than playing a level 25-30 necro. Especially with some hp gear, the necro will rarely die in the 4 rounds he'll have to hang around in those fights. And when sleep lands, it's an almost guaranteed kill. While I think necros (human necros to be more exact) are at the top of the food chain all the way untill they need to fight tough heros with spellbane and deathblow, I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. Something will always be the power combo. As far as I'm concerned, it's best to have necros fill this spot, since they are the ones who are most often stuck at those levels due to ranking difficulties. If you downgrade a midlevel necro's PK power, it will result in hour and hours of boredom while trying to find a group desperate enough to take you.

I agree, to an extent. Necros can be pretty deadly, in the right hands. An average person should get at least as many kills as deaths, probably more, while an experienced player shouldn't die that much. That being said, a necro shouldn't really be able to kill an experienced player too often either. Those players have learned to keep an eye on where, watch for locked rooms, not to lag themselves out for a free flee/sleep, so on. For the most part I think the majority of PKs a midbie necro gets are on the less experienced or rager apps. The later I'm fine with, the first sucks though because they tend to keep taking it up the ass from the same guy over and over. I disagree completely with there always being a power combo. Certainly not necros if there was. Maybe the fire giant sword specs with greetings and trapping who like to spam flurry or bash, but they're as beatable as anyone else. I agree wholeheartedly that a group has to be desperate to take a necro for ranking though, with the exception of a couple places. Anywho.

>I agree, to an extent. Necros can be pretty deadly, in the
>right hands. An average person should get at least as many
>kills as deaths, probably more, while an experienced player
>shouldn't die that much.

I dunno, man. I've definitely seen some people clean up in a good way with midbie necromancer over the years, but I've also seen a lot of them -- even aggressive ones -- get pasted a lot more.

I have fond memories of running through people with a necromancer at that level, but I can't say it racked up kills faster than, say, a midlevel warrior, ranger, anti-paladin, thief, assassin, shaman, conjurer, etc.

>That being said, a necro shouldn't
>really be able to kill an experienced player too often either.

There I agree. I die all the damn time to warriors; I can't even remember the last time a necromancer killed me, excepting possibly as part of a 4+ person gang, which wouldn't really speak to the strength of the class.

I died to one not long ago. One-rounded by him, two lieutenants, several zombies, a shawtabby, and a white bear. Probably all hasted. Ouchie.

I know that at around the rank a necro gets it, it is rather expensive, and if your foe has decent saves, it can be REALLY hard to land when you first get it.

But let's say the guy has ranked 2-3 times after getting it, so it doesn't cost so much. Let's say he's also spent the multiple hours to spam it up to 100, so it lands often enough.

For flee;sleep necros....you never *HAVE* to die to them. Period.

If you don't think you can keep him lagged and kill him. Get a teleport potion.

When he comes near, dirt him before he attacks you. He'll probably flee, or blind you then flee, then you quaff the teleport.


Or, keep a word and a teleport. And quaff one or the other.

don't think your dirt kick is reliable to land so he can still flee/sleep? then keep det inv up (not overly hard) and if you see him, quaff teleport or word before he gets near.

.

Yeah, assuming you have the coin and or/trade goods to try a whole bunch of times. That's assuming you're near a healer. Or the necro doesn't do that cheap ass keep sleeping them crap. I'm not saying change it, just saying I see his point of view and heal disease isn't a helpful response to him. I couldn't say the last time I died to CS. But better to say something useful like, instead of bash, dirt, or run away. Prevent rather than endure.

P.S. Sleep should have some sort of counter like blackjack does, even if only for an extra hour for those cheap ass necros that just keep laying on the sleep. It could be negated as soon as they fight though, so if someone does the attack wake-up they can be put right back to sleep.

>P.S. Sleep should have some sort of counter like blackjack
>does, even if only for an extra hour for those cheap ass
>necros that just keep laying on the sleep.


It does. (if I remember correctly) Every failed attempt to sleep makes it harder for them to re-cast a successful sleep.

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=3&topic_id=179&mesg_id=179&listing_type=search

Read the above for more info!

If a thief blackjacks me, when it wears off, there is an hour before I can be blackjacked again. Same for many of the methods for immobilizing/sleeping someone.

Once sleep wears off, if the necromancer is spamming c 'sleep' you just get put right back to sleep again. If you are unlucky, they can spell you up, than just sit there spamming c 'sleep' over and over until you are dead.

I'm aware of that, but it isn't what I meant. What I'm talking about is those necros who get someone asleep and maledict them, then keep hitting sleep so the person never actually wakes up. Granted it's probably a bit harder to do now that things actually happen on the hour, but not impossible. One trigger and they can hit sleep before the other guy can do the two commands to wake up and get away.

>and heal disease isn't a helpful response to him. I couldn't
>say the last time I died to CS. But better to say something
>useful like, instead of bash, dirt, or run away. Prevent
>rather than endure.

It's advice, but it's also an explanation. A big balancing factor to Crimson Scourge is how (relatively) easy it is to cure.

In my experience it's only easy to cure relative to damnation. Depending on the duration I just generally put some money into healing hp and moves and wait it out. It might be a lot easier to cure at the ranks this guy is talking about, don't know, can't recall the last time I had it at those ranks. From a spectre though I think fives heal attempts is somewhere around the average for me, and heal disease isn't cheap.

Sleep would be cheap if necros could defend worth a damn. As it stands, half the time you're going to kill a necro (at the low to mid ranks) is because he tries (and fails) to sleep you and dies in the rounds immediately following.

I wouldn't necessarily think it would be bad if sleep got downgraded, but without some form of compensation in the way of damage reduction, it would also neuter the class beyond repair.

What have you been smoking, and can I have some?

Wraithform is physical damage redux, plus bash protection. We are talking about the mid-ranks here, hence all this CS talk.

Toss down a flight potion for a whooping 100 copper, you now have flight too, leaving only some weapon specs to lag. Which at this level are less likely to hit so it might be taking a chance, but logging into the game is chancy too.

If you feel the need, protection and stone skin are both easily acquired. Could get aura and shield too, but I'll say that's higher ranks to give your side a little more oomph.

Now I'm not going to say necro can't get his ass handed to him. Axe spec with non-physical damage axes should be able to lay a bit of hurt on him, especially if he can throw a pincer in. Overall though, I don't think an average player should be getting killed half the time he fails a sleep. If he does it is possible he failed his IQ test. Especially if the retard doesn't flee as soon as he fails that sleep and sees himself downing a can of whoop ass.

You really think tossing an hour of unsleepability on someone who endures the whole timer is going to neuter necros? Seriously?

Having played for several years, much to long, dirt is your best bet, both at avoiding sleep and the ability to kill them, if you can 't keep them in combat with the bash.

I can live with the fact that I was stupid not to see him comming to sleep me... The problem really was with Crimson Scourge...

What *could* maybe help would be that CS wake the person. Like an attack.

I'm don't know very well the ups and downs and localions of this or that, and honnestly I've always had a hard time finding gold and thus keeping lots of potions have always been challenging to me... But I can live with that too because it's my fault and my problem...

Anyway.. I've cooled down a little.. Thanks for all the advices in this post..

And then you attack someone you don't know is a rager and you get killed in under a round.

Trust me, it isn't as uncommon as you think.

I think the only thing that tempts me to play a necromancer given lich quests, annoyance in ranking, inability to really fight ragers well, without uber prepping, and having everything in the game hate you, is sleep. And the fact that sleep = kill, most of the time, if you're smart.

Now, if you worsened sleep, yes I'd say necros would be utterly neutered. Right now, they're horrible at 5 things and really, really good at one thing. You'd be suggesting they become horrible at 5 things and mediocre at one thing. I'd rather, personally, play a warrior, shaman, paladin, conjurer, druid...all those classes that are pretty much good at everything, rather than play a necromancer, if sleep was nerfed.

Either you aren't following what I'm saying, or your concept of neutering/nerfing is any minute change to something that does not empower it. If it's the latter, I'll just agree to disagree. If the former, read everything over.

P.S. Your counting is a bit off too.

> Your counting is a bit off too.

I was speaking metaphorically. There are a number of different aspects to a class.

I don't think you get what I'm saying. Sleep shouldn't have a counter because as it stands it is significantly harder to land than blackjack. You also don't give up as much by gearing to defend against sleep.

Anyway, I digress.