I did post under morasfenmires goodbye at non registered nick at my post was deleted. I assume it was either too OT or it was too hostile perhaps? Not sure. Anyway, I do hope it is possible to discuss these things here.

Morasfenmire got what I understand punished for grouping with a scion, even if he had never seen any signs of that person being a scion. In my opinion that is far too much immortal involvement and sadly the wrong kind. At first we have the factor, if this policy would spread and be common in all cabals then it would pretty much result in Empire, Battle, Outlander, Scion etc can only group in their own cabal. Not that much fun really, you can never be sure if that level 30 fire giant is a scion or not if he does not admit it.

Second an example. Scion is weak and let us say I'm playing a scion. It is in my role to be sneaky so I use a couple of Imperials to rank me. I hide my powers and answer vaguely on their questions and try to milk them of information. Suddenly an Imm appears, points at me and says: He is a scion, kill him. No funstick there.

I'm hoping to see some input from others if I have misunderstood something.

I have pretty much given up. This is the second character in a somewhat short time who has gotten the uninduct, or threat of uninduct from Innis. I didn't even know that said person was Scion, and had done a good amount of checking the Chasm, etc. And I even had a past couple conversations with this one about Muuloc. I just don't know what to do anymore. Honestly what did I do wrong?

Ultimately I have no idea what to do next. I'm supposed to be a beast in Outlanders, but now I have to investigate if each person I decide to travel with is a Scion, and if I fail, or am incorrect, I receive a literally impossible quest in an impossible timeframe (kill the two paladins on who both have defiance and who both are grouped with 3 or more individuals, and do it all before you log out, or you are gone. I as the ram, and the other as a 3rd tier utility form, taking on, at one time, a group of 7). It just seemed exceedingly harsh, impossible, and very likely just an excuse to send someone packing who has 3 con left. And now it sets this policy that even if you don't know if they are Scion or not, you risk being uninducted because immortals have a better view of everyone then you do.

I mean what do I do? What can I do to avoid this situation next time? What can anyone do? What can I do to not have what happened to Morasfenmire happen to my next evil outlander? Without craploads of investigative work, or an OOC cautiousness, I pretty much cannot. And that is what really sucks. And Aiekooso has a point too. You have a goodie healer who screwed up multiple times in your own eyes, yet is promoted to Sun Warden.

But if I say anything on this point. It will be taken as complaining, or that I'm some bitter ex-imm, or its because of some strange (and false) hatred of Nepenthe and Valg or some other Immortal. So thats why I just did what Innis said, and just kept dying over and over to the massive goodies until it was over.

I always thought that unless it was some serious violation of some cabal ethics or rules, let the mortals sort it out. Or if its something that happens continually, note it and see if it becomes a pattern. This wasn't even a pattern, this was the first time ever, and if I knew, all of you knew it, I would have killed him.

Your game, your cabal, your right to uninduct or threaten to uninduct anyone for anything. And I unfortunately, just like all the other players, just have to deal. And deal I will, because I found arguing these points to be pretty fruitless.

What exactly was being enforced there? That you cannot group with anyone in Outlander unless they've concretely proven their allegiances ahead of time, and it happens to fill the extremely narrow gap of people you're allowed to group with?

It'd be cool if there was a lesson to walk away with, but the only lesson I got was that my next char choice isn't going to be the evil outlander invoker I had picked out.

Because, to be honest, if the Scion doesn't use their powers you'd have absolutely no way of knowing, short of OOC connections, that they were a Scion. And Outlander powers aren't good enough to be easier to get kicked out of than Empire.

You are supposed to consider uninduction as "a really neat opportunity to explore your characters role"
He also adds "It is those kinds of roleplay challenges, that come from interacting with others with unforseen outcomes, that make roleplay rewarding."

Take care :)

I just suck and we'll leave it at that. Damn you Dwoggurd! :)

P.S. I never did thank you for showing me the nastiness of sword specs when you were Dwoggurd.

We all know you don't suck, and we all know you are about a bazillion times better at pk than me. But I got the impression from these two posts that you really didn't agree with my point of view that sometimes, some adversity is what makes playing a character worthwhile.


I say that, because getting busted to seantryn from Vindie as odrirg, and working back all the way to vindie was some of the most rewarding play I've ever gotten out of this game. Same with getting booted from the cabal entirely from Provost and earning my way back to provincial as Malzhaalohn.


Now, to be honest, More often than not, I'm not willing to work through times that tough and setbacks that bad with a char and just delete.

but I look at that deletion as *MY* choice. I look at it as I'm handed an opportunity, and either I'm up for it or I don't want to take it.


Not saying everyone has to think that way, or even that other ways of looking at it are invalid. I'm just saying, that if you can learn to look at it that way, you just *might* have more fun with the game.

Getting kicked out of trib is no big deal. In fact if you can get the outlanders to stop hunting you because of it, your life probably just got a whole lot easier.

Getting kicked out of battle or outlander, two cabals with severe restrictions, either means continuing to accept restrictions without any powers to recompense for the sacrifice, or giving up the restrictions. Giving up the restrictions pretty much means you ain't getting back in. Continuing to accept the restrictions means you have a pretty hard road ahead of you.

When something bothers you. I will be the first to admit I can make errors, and I cannot watch all characters at all times. I attempt to treat each player with honest and respect. In the same manner, I have my own rp and that of every mob I portray. I will do my best to keep it as fun for you as I can. Good luck.

Honestly my experiences with outlander imms has been nothing short of insanely frustrating. I think the way they as a group run their cabal and its RP is a pretty bunk way of doing it. I have had I think its 3 characters booted from the cabal for the stupidest of stuff. Its hard in, easy out, waaaaaaaaaaaaaay easier out then empire.

My experiences were this. I had a cloud giant axe spec whose role revolved around destruction of those deemed profane by the outlanders. So basically I went after everyone labeled as an enemy. I got booted for killing to many paladins.

I had a half-drow druid. I got booted for killing 2 people that were not on the ultimate list of enemies. Neither were random drive by's either. Funny thing is 2 months later we see a string of murder druids who killed 10 times the number of non-enemies and they get leadership positions.

I had another cloud giant get booted because during a raid he suggested, keyword here folks is suggested, that they ask a storm giant maran warrior come bash down the hero imperial that was solo raiding. The justification for that booting was only goodies are allowed to ask help from goodies.


So those have been my only three attempts at playing outlanders since the cabal went in and well they all sucked. My personal opinion (and this may have changed since I last played I understand) is that there are too many imms running the cabal. And furthermore all those imms are trying to force tooo strict a role limitation on the various alignments in the cabal. I was definentally given the feeling that we were only allowed to play each aling one or two ways, and this was a sentiment that I saw reflected in a number of other people in the cabal at the time.



Ohh well but what can you expect when dealing with a handful of chaotic imms. You get a lot more interaction then other cabals I suppose and that can work for you as easily as against you.

I agree with this:

>Ohh well but what can you expect when dealing with a handful
>of chaotic imms.

As for the rest, I can't help but think there's more to each story (whether you know it or not) than is presented here.

It was just focused on the wrong person. The swamp thing and the other Outlander should NOT have been punished in this case. The Scion on the other hand should have been rewarded for his sneaky corruption of a pair of enemies.

CF has hard coded anti sneaky penalties which makes sneaky evil extremely hard to do. Can not group with a goodie, so many items give away alignment (especially at low levels), and of course all the sources of detect alignment. Then you add Imm involvement and you get what could be considered enforced RP between certain types of characters.

It would be very neat to see CF relax the hard codes and let sneaky evils have some fun too!

You could also get transed to ROTD for "only" grouping with a few Outlanders because your times match. :) I love the Imms most of the time, but I know that whole ordeal left a sour taste in my mouth. Ranking an evil outlander is not easy... I think Innis is wrong about Goodies being about the same for ranking...I completely disagree actually. The only "evil" cabals out there are at war with Outlander, so your options are hmm Tribunal? (whoopsie, nope) or battle. Well, for Morasfenmire...battle isn't an option, so his options pretty much sucked.

Sorry, just a rant

Basically, it leaves other Outlanders(exept goodies), neutral Heralds and uncaballeds. I heroed Frearrir with the aid of Scions, with whom the Outlanders didn't have such hostilities at the time. But I can see why Outlanders don't like Scions. Fre felt uncomfortable grouping with them, but endured the Scions when they were useful.

Let's see evil outlander can't group with conjurers, necromancers, scions, empire, tribunal, maran. They can group with a neutral (maybe), fellow outlander (maybe) and what? Then add into the fact that you have immortals monitoring. Now I'm not picking on Arminas here, but let's compare his half-dozen screwups to Mosen's one or Meakanera's. I mention Meakanera since I delt with this first hand through that character.

Tue Jun 14 23:31:04 2005 by 'Innis' at level 51 (160 hrs):
Made him my mortal voice guy. It means he is now my slave. :P
Sat Jun 25 11:20:49 2005 by 'Innis' at level 51 (177 hrs):
Was wearing/carrying 2 Scepters of Chaos (evil)...let him know I did not approve.
Thu Aug 4 05:22:32 2005 by 'Khasotholas' at level 51 (320 hrs):
Raiding palace alongside Limnoreia, paladin.
Tue Aug 16 21:07:29 2005 by 'Innis' at level 51 (388 hrs):
Had a nice chat about hem becoming Sunwarden, and it went well, so he is.
Sun Sep 11 00:38:45 2005 by 'Drokalanatym' at level 51 (542 hrs):
I like this character, but he isn't really good-aligned anymore, if he ever was.
Sat Oct 22 00:38:25 2005 by 'Innis' at level 51 (615 hrs):
Very nice talk at the Glade...still on the ball, though not what I would call 'awful good'...I think being in Outlander can dent morallity.

Did he get kicked out or asked to kill someone? No, he was promoted to Sun Warden.

Scion grouping options are a little better but still ass.

Add in Anti-Paladins, Duergar, Dwarves

Also, think about Thieves being sorta taboo because of city ties.

Take a Mage or Priest and you limit your interactinos with ragers as well.

How many people play evil just to be evil and not join scions or empire.

I remember when I played Dalbiddle I grouped with scions all the time...in fact, I got a bonus for attacking a nightwalker when someone I was with called one. He then started a war with us over the whole thing. I understand why Outlanders don't like Scions, but man it limits choices severly. I don't mind being a loner, but ranking as such, is not fun. when your time is limited like mine is, ranking isn't something you want to take forever doing by yourself.

Yeah. Ranking is meant to be a hindrance, but given the setup with outlander I'd be tempted to just not join until 45.

>You could also get transed to ROTD for "only" grouping with a
>few Outlanders because your times match. :) I love the Imms
>most of the time, but I know that whole ordeal left a sour
>taste in my mouth.

To be completely fair, having seen the pile of (some of it circumstantial) evidence in that case, based purely on evidence, I would be more likely to believe O.J. was innocent* than you guys.

I've liked a lot of your characters and I'd really like to believe it/you were clean, but based on what was there, I have no problem standing beside the decision to pull you aside and talk.**



*I'm not talking murder here. I'm saying it would be more easy to prove O.J. was innocent of playing football.

**I've played evil Outlanders and I know how it is.

And a neutral as well in the past, I think it is about equally as hard for a good-aligned to rank as an evil. As a good I generally could not rank with dwarves, paladins, Tribunals, or Fortressites as a matter of course. I've seen someone uninducted for grouping with a paladin before by Lysriton. It doesn't leave a lot to work with.

That said, it doesn't mean it's impossible, just harder with fewer folks on. Most of the time there wasn't anyone in group range that wasn't either evil or in a proscribed group.

I don't know all the particulars about Morasfenmire's incident but it might have been something as simple as trying to motivate and interact with the player with the potential for rewards if it was done well. By their very nature the evil Ancients are a little more brutal in those interactions rather than the huggy good Ancients ( a gross exaggeration, but you get the idea).

Much of Outlander is about being the outsider, hence it often is better suited to the lone player than the gregarious grouper. It is harder and that's part of the challenge. At least it was to me when I played.

Just a random opinion, take it for what it's worth.

Have automatic boosts to XP gain when you rank alone...I think its a good solution. I'd love to rank alone, but alas, I don't have that kind of time to spend on a character.

My understanding is that groups get a boost to encourage people to RP while ranking. Understandably some people get boosts for solo ranking, I think Alven's PBF mentioned he got the full boost, but that is solo ranking that is RP driven not just because it is convient. Anyway I would not be in favor of something that would make it easier for people to turn on quiet mode and never interact with of players as I think this would.

I'm also not in favor of warring with Scions. I think until people play an evil outlander, they have little to no idea. No offense to Nep, but he has so much game knowledge that I can't see him having a hard time ranking with anything or in any situation.

Logically, why wouldn't the Scion cabal be the single most offensive cabal in the game to an Outlander?

Well because back in the day there was light and shadow. An evil Outlander could say it is the natural progression that the world be turned back to shadow. After spending all this time in the light.

I hope you're kidding.

I'm pretty sure any Outlander who said that would be clubbed with a chunk of granola. Even a cursory examination of the two cabals' helpfiles should lead one to conclude why the Scion cabal should be hated by Outlanders.

It's all the offensiveness of Empire's domination plans rolled in with disruption of natural cycles and a heaping helping of conjuration.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Hey, I'm just trying to offer an angle. :P

Because lyristeon flat out said it.

http://www.qhcf.net/cforum/logs/vpost.pl?30664

enjoy, comment

Was it after Lyristeon went on hiatus that this whole scion thing changed?

When I had Dalbiddle, it wasn't a problem...thats all I'm saying. Now, I wouldn't accept a nightwalker near me, but I didn't hunt Scions unless they had one with them and attacked me when I attacked it.

>Was it after Lyristeon went on hiatus that this whole scion
>thing changed?

Innis started to kick people out for being in friendly term with Scions or aiding them when other Outlander Imms (mainly Lyristeon, I don't recall Amaranthe making a statement on this issue) were still saying that grouping with Scions was all right.

I agree with Valg that Scions should be an enemy of Outlander by any sense. However, Scions are a mysterious group of dark magi who keep their goals hidden from others. Therefore ignorance is reasonable thing to assume. An Outlander might not know that Scions are violating all that he holds sacred. Heck, the player of the Outlander might not know it. Scions don't tend to advertise themselves, so my advice for Innis would be to check if the character knows why Scions are bad in future before booting people.

>When I had Dalbiddle, it wasn't a problem...thats all I'm
>saying. Now, I wouldn't accept a nightwalker near me, but I
>didn't hunt Scions unless they had one with them and attacked
>me when I attacked it.

I agree with you, kinda anyways. It really all depends on your role within outlander I supose. I also remember lyristeon bitchslapping malkhar I belive for attacking scions because they were not suposed to be enemies. The justification was that scions don't enslave the ccul'gra they have a partnership with them.