Somewhere down below I brought up pugil strike success rates for a ranger where despite mastery, I failed more than I struck. I just ran another random test and came up with 56 avoids to 53 strikes. These were not misses (huge hitroll), but avoids.

The question is, is this the rate you intend for it to succeed? It's not a blame thing, or a whine (well much anyway) just wondering if this is about what it is really supposed to be for something with a 2 round lag?

Thanks, really, for all the work you guys put into the game.

That's pretty close to what I'd expect.

see below for additional comments.

Pugil can also deal a ton of damage. If it hit every time (or close to it), it would obviate many of your other skills. Some element of uncertainty is one mechanism for justifying a potentially large payoff.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

If you are a ranger wielding a staff you have already given up your second weapon (hence 1-3 attacks) or a shield. For felars this isn't a trade-off, but for others it is. Rangers do not seem to have a lot of other skills to use in place of pugil if wielding a staff: kick (same lag, less damage, maybe greater success), entangle (I don't think this stacks, so once), dirt, bearcharge (seems to fail even more than pugil-I know size plays a role), disarm...not really anything that would cause damage and it doesn't lag your opponent, so they are still doing the same things they would be.

I think part of the concern I have is that you can miss 6, 7 times in a row, so 14 rounds where you lost the second weapon attacks as well as any damaging extra attacks. I just haven't noticed a similar fail rate for other melee skills, though I will openly admit to not having played all the classes anytime recently.

Pugil can deal damage, but I usually see maybe only twice the normal damage at best, not 3-5 times that a really big hit from a meelee skill might do.

I will also concede that a ranger staff is a great weapon, hence the trade-off in using it over 2 other conventional weapons. The pugil failure rate just seems to detract a little from using a class-based weapon.

I think you're probably not using the skill wisely then. With my last ranger, I'd hit pugils roughly 85% of the time once perfected. Keep in mind that alot of factors play into whether or not skills land, not just your proficiency at that skill. What level are you and they? What race? These are just basic questions, but plenty more apply. I assure you that ranger pugil isn't as junk as you make it out to be. When every two rounds you see someone drop an obliterate while wearing shabby +damroll gear, you'll understand that.

I didn't say it was junk, I said it failed more often than it hit and I was wondering if that was what was intended.

I've played enough rangers to understand something of the class and when to use pugil. But thanks for the comments.

What about in pk situations?

Pugil has messed me up good from another player when I do not know the staff skill. Add to blunt vuln, that hurts. Bad.

I don't really think improving pugil for rangers would 'break' the class or make them overpowered, by any means. That being said, I don't really think it addresses their shortcomings in gameplay either. I'm not sure how I'd tweak rangers to be more fun to play outside of one-shotting people at hero range, probably some sort of spec revamp, but, thats a lot of work and they're already very good from 11 to 40.

I still think rangers are one of the best classes in the hero range, but I'll accept that mine is a minority opinion.

Even if they're viable in PK, they're just somewhat boring to play. You join a cabal like outlander, since its the only really ranger-friendly cabal, only when raiding Tribunal and especially Empire you're severely handicapped. Imagine, if, for instance, paladins couldn't commune inside the palace's inner. Thats often what it feels like to be a ranger. Dirt/disarm and serpent spamming is pretty much your main firepower in cities. Its not that you can't still do well, its just sorta boring. I think some diversification would be nice, or some more carry-into-the-city firepower (like bears, but not bears), but, I get thats a lot of work for little benefit.

Weren't you Kamal? (If so, awesome!) Have you had a hero ranger in the past three years? (No malice in the previous.) Granted, I think rangers kick too, but you've got to admit they're boring when relegated only to the woods. I just wish they had a few more options other than pugil and serpentstrike to utilze while raiding or wandering the many oceans, roads, deserts, and cities. Options like bearform and birdform, since I'm still under the impression that those skills were given to the wrong class by accident.