Just a thought, but would it be far fetched to have food types fill equally. I think this would reduce the need to tweak every item case by case. Just so that stuff made of meat would fill in 2 pounds, bread in 4 pounds, mushroom in 5 pounds etc. This would seam quite reasonable, and would make it very easy to determine what food to eat.

How about if you make bread or berry pie one item food with multiple meals in it?

What I mean is to have just one bread or one pie in your sack or inventory and every time you eat you keep eating from it. Lets say it takes maybe 2-3 big bites to fill you up. A single bread would be 3-4 meals. Some low dex characters can save on inventory space sometimes and sack space. Not sure about the container space since I don’t know how it works. A char would carry maybe 4-5 whole breads instead of 20 loaves.

When you eat the bread you can look at it and see how much of it is left or gone, either way. The char would see something like this:

A thick crust bread had some bites taken out of it.

A thick crust bread has about half eaten.

A thick crust bread is more than half eaten.

A thick crust bread has only a bite or two left.

You could have the same for berry pies or the larger food items such as the large boar steak. You can adjust the weight to match the number of meals.

Mushroom for example could be in bunches or something and you each bunch is one item, and you can eat maybe 2-3 times out of one before its gone?

How about it?

Just a thought, but would it be far fetched to have food types fill equally. I think this would reduce the need to tweak every item case by case. Just so that stuff made of meat would fill in 2 pounds, bread in 4 pounds, mushroom in 5 pounds etc. This would seam quite reasonable, and would make it very easy to determine what food to eat.

That would work, if all our food items had the same (or even similar) descriptions by type. For example, there are 30 different 'mushroom' or 'fungus' type food objects in the game. Here's a sample:

a large spotted mushroom
a toadstool
several brown mushrooms with white spots
some smoked mushrooms
a handful of pale white mushrooms
a clump of mushrooms

Should they all fill exactly the same? Or should a handful or a clump of mushrooms fill more than a single mushroom? Extend that example to other foods; say, a carrot versus a bunch of carrots, and you start to see that, logically, more of one type of food eaten should fill you up more. So, we could either change the descriptions of all the foods to make them match, or change the fill values. We chose the latter route, as it keeps our areas very diverse.

Something else to consider is the 'waste factor' (I just made that term up). Think about eating a whole chicken versus a chicken breast. A lot of the weight with a whole chicken is bones, entrails, feet, head, etc., things that you won't eat. The chicken breast is pretty much all edible. So there's more waste per fill value with the whole chicken when compared to the chicken breast. In the MUD, we've tried to make that difference up in the cost of the item. So the chicken breast will have a higher cost-to-fill ratio, but a lower weight-to-fill ratio than the whole chicken. You'll find that logic extended to all the food objects in the game.

Kastellyn the Devourer of Magic, Lord of Legends

>Something else to consider is the 'waste factor' (I just made
>that term up). Think about eating a whole chicken versus a
>chicken breast. A lot of the weight with a whole chicken is
>bones, entrails, feet, head, etc., things that you won't eat.

This brings up another interesting thing. Yes, my elf would pick through the chicken and eat only the meat. An orc or a fire giant, contrastly, would probably just pop the whole thing in his mouth. "Inedible" is a real life view point, as there is as much (or more) nutritional content in bones and entrails. True, a gnome may not be one to gnaw on a bone, but orcs, duergar, fire giants, cloud giants etc. certainly might be.

With standardization comes the ability to implement ideas like these.

Kastellyn the Devourer of Magic, Lord of Legends

So, would that also include the edibility of like rocks and sticks for my orcs who don't know better!? :D

Anyways, just wanted to say I love ya'll with those thoughts!

I don't think that was his point.

I think he was trying to point out a flaw in your "waste" logic. I also think your logic's a little messed up and unneccessary. Yes, standardization is a good idea. But where you're going wrong (and where many of the players are getting hung up) is you're trying too hard to be realistic and logical, instead of looking at it from a gameplay point of view.

I find the opposite. The only part of this that slightly annoys me is not the realistic aspect of it. Its the unrealistic aspect. The part where it takes me twelve loaves of bread to fill up. I mean, unless I'm a bolemic (sp?), why would I need to 'binge' daily just to get full? Thats the only part I don't like. Should just run a program that returns every item of food that requires 5+ to fill and just tweak or remove them altogether.

In RL, you eat every 6 to 8 hours (or so, different folks have different eating habits). You, generally, eat until you are full. Then you wait 6 to 8 hours until you are hungry, and repeat the process.

On CF, with 1 tick equal to 1 hour, you'd be eating every 8 ticks or so if we went by the above.

So you can either leave the fullness value where it is, and eat your 12 loaves of bread all at once to fill up. Or we can move the fullness value down to 8 hours or so, and let 2 loaves of bread fill you up at one sitting.

Neither way is perfect, but I think letting you turn yourself into a two-day food camel on CF makes eating a bit less of a chore.

Kastellyn the Devourer of Magic, Lord of Legends

Can you consider changing newbie Academy Bread so that it gradually decreases in its ability to satiate you once you pass level 5? The sudden drop off is so complete and so abrupt that it may unnecessarily harm newbies just learning the ropes to the game.


(edited for spelling errors :) )

>Can you consider changing newbie Academy Bread so that it
>gradually decreases in its ability to satiate you once you
>pass level 5? The sudden drop off is so complete and so
>abrupt that it may unnecessarily harm newbies just learning
>the ropes to the game.
>
>
>(edited for spelling errors :) )

I found that pretty abrupt too.

>>Can you consider changing newbie Academy Bread so that it
>>gradually decreases in its ability to satiate you once you
>>pass level 5? The sudden drop off is so complete and so
>>abrupt that it may unnecessarily harm newbies just learning
>>the ropes to the game.
>>
>>
>>(edited for spelling errors :) )
>
>I found that pretty abrupt too.

If the economy is supposed to be working or at least part way there, why is this even an issue? Why do you have to make newbie food some special subset of economics?

I think thats what they're trying to achieve. Weight x price = fillability. My only recommendation is that once its done, tweak it so that most food items take 2-4 to fill you up, even if they have to be made heavier and more expensive. A solid example is 14 loaves of bread, even with the echo saying its unsatisfying, it just doesn't make sense for it to be there at all because it then serves really no purpose. Give it time though, given how many food items are in the game its not a quick 2 minute thing to edit all of them.

A solid example is 14 loaves of bread, even with the echo saying its unsatisfying, it just doesn't make sense for it to be there at all because it then serves really no purpose.

This might be the newbie bread, which isn't all that good for more seasoned adventurers.

It shouldn't take much more than 3 loaves of most breads to fill you up.

Though, given how many food items are in the game its not a quick 2 minute thing to edit all of them.

No, no it's not a 2 minute thing...*sigh* Wouldn't that be nice!

Kastellyn the Devourer of Magic, Lord of Legends

Im not the Standardization Guru but..I can comment on some of the problems you are running into. Like the numbers Kastellyn posted about average fill values, and weights and such. This project will bring the cost vs weight vs fill value matrix into line. So essentially you WILL be able to get decent food, for a decent price, everywhere in Thera. Just give it some time to work itself out. There have admittedly been some strange occurrences and it is the goal of all of us imms to make the playing field more level. Even with something as trivial as food consumption.

I agree that same food should be equally filling in respect to it's weight all over Thera. I found it strange that it took about 3 kg of Hamsah sausages to get my fill after hunger(900g each). I think that meat should filling and that a regular human shouldn't have to devour a flock of hen to satisfy his hunger. Personally, I've been a large boar steak feeder, as I like the idea of one item filling me up, which is true for a normal sized person and a boar steak.

I agree that same food should be equally filling in respect to it's weight all over Thera.

Weight won't be the final determining factor of fill value. See my above post about the 'waste factor'. Also, there are certain foods that have a relatively high fill value for their weight - but they cost more. It's more a balancing act between cost, fill value and weight than a 1 to 1 ratio of weight to fill value.

I found it strange that it took about 3 kg of Hamsah sausages to get my fill after hunger(900g each).

Without going into too much detail, almost all of that last sausage string went straight to your hips.

I think that meat should filling and that a regular human shouldn't have to devour a flock of hen to satisfy his hunger.

Prepared meat is more filling (for a given weight) than, say, vegetables...but it also costs more.

Personally, I've been a large boar steak feeder, as I like the idea of one item filling me up, which is true for a normal sized person and a boar steak.

We haven't done the Inn yet. Boar steaks will soon be similar to all other steaks.

Kastellyn the Devourer of Magic, Lord of Legends

I avoid foods that fill me up in one eating. Six or seven hours being unable to eat any pills is, in my mind, unacceptable.

I agree with this to a point. It's nonsensical that a human should need to eat, for example, four Hamsah whole chickens to get full. I don't know many humans that can eat more than one whole chicken.

Now, is the discussion tweaking the weight, price, fullness-factor or description of the item? That's for Team Standardization to decide, and I'm sure a lot of these things will be adjusted in the relatively near future. Kasty is a workhorse, yo!

I agree that same food should be equally filling in respect to it's weight all over Thera. I found it strange that it took about 3 kg of Hamsah sausages to get my fill after hunger(900g each).

To re-emphasize this point: CF weights can't be reliably compared to RL weights, because CF weight capacities (300+ pounds of gear, 20+ pounds of weapon, cloth knapsacks that can carry 200 pounds without tearing, etc.) are usually terribly inflated. Conversely, carrying a (sea/ocean-worthy, even) raft is nigh-impossible in RL, but CF has them weighted low, in the 40 pound range.

In other words, we're setting weights in the game based on what we think is playable, not what the actual RL objects weigh. Under the new system, based on some numbers Kasty provided me, roughly 5 pounds of food per RL hour of play is reasonable. 5 pounds of rations would be cumbersome if you or I had to carry it all day, but to a CF human (non-warrior, even) who can lug 300 pounds continuously, it's a non-issue.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Let's say that I used to buy lots of Galadon berry pies for food (a good place to set the value, since it was relitevely cheap and convenient). If we take into consideration that I spend 90% of the life time of my charachter patrolling the frequented areas (pretty much depicted in the Granaak rager map) or ranking, after the whole tweaking is finnished and everything is as is supposed, will I need to

- carry more or less food with me to last the same time?
- spend more or less money to buy me the food to last the same time?
- spend more or less time gathering the food to last the same time?

I am not very worried about whether the changes will affect my PK power, my carry weight or anything of such value. As for why I enquire, is because I am a lazy slob. I am a player who takes the Eastern Road always, spamming the directions from MS to West gate Hamsah, because I find being occasionally summoned/gang raped/full sacced/gloated over on dio's/recieving an occasional demotion less of a bother than having to pay attention and enter one east at a time for those 84 rooms. I am a player who dies without teleport potions since it's too much of a stretch to walk all the way to get some, unless I can afford to buy 10 at once.

The best case scenario (for me) for this new change would be that food all around Thera would be good, so I could walk into any food shop, grab a reasonable priced food item, and it would work just as well as the Galadon berry pie of old times.

The worst case scenario is that this change will reduce the effectiveness of the most major frequented food, and favor some of the less frequented ones, levelling all the foods on a slightly (perhaps even considerably) lower value than the convenient Galadon berry pie. Effectively a change into this direction will be inconveniencing me (possibly not much, but even a slight change to the worse is indeed, a change to the worse) for 98% of my time spent on Carrion Fields, and only favor me 2% of the time, when I happen to be far away and haven't remembered to stock up.

I thank you for the hard work you do on CF, and hope that this does not come out as a change-fearing whine-happy post.

After the whole tweaking is finnished and everything is as is supposed, will I need to

- carry more or less food with me to last the same time?

It should be about the same. Average fill value didn't change all that much across the board. But you might have to find a different 'staple' food than the old tried and true ones of the past.

- spend more or less money to buy me the food to last the same time?

Definitely less money. Food values decreased pretty much across the board. With the fill values remaining fairly constant, that means less money spent to fill you up. I will caveat this with saying that different merchants have different mark ups on the food they sell. Think of Galadon as New York City and Aturi as Montclair, NJ. Farm-type foods are cheaper the closer you get to the source (usually), so you'll probably face less of a mark up for a whole chicken in Aturi than in one of the big cities.

- spend more or less time gathering the food to last the same time?

Should be less, simply because you can buy your food wherever you happen to be and get a good deal. So if you happen to find yourself in Balator, you can buy a strip of taglo jerky there that will fill you up just as much as the beef jerky sold in Galadon - and that jerky will weigh about the same as well.

The best case scenario (for me) for this new change would be that food all around Thera would be good, so I could walk into any food shop, grab a reasonable priced food item, and it would work just as well as the Galadon berry pie of old times.

Food all around Thera will be similar, but not all food in the game will have the fill value of the old Galadon berry pies. You can still get filling foods, but they'll either a) cost more, or b) be heavier than average filling foods.

The worst case scenario is that this change will reduce the effectiveness of the most major frequented food.

It should in most cases, simply because the most major frequented foods (and I can extend this to drink containers and carrying containers) were the ones that were the most out of whack with what made sense (the 100 g side of beef that filled you up for 40 hours comes to mind). Some of the most major frequented foods were the ones that were most convienient, and those shouldn't change too much.

...levelling all the foods on a slightly (perhaps even considerably) lower value than the convenient Galadon berry pie.

You'll now pay what you should have been paying for this convienience (as far as copper goes).

I thank you for the hard work you do on CF, and hope that this does not come out as a change-fearing whine-happy post.

No worries, and no, it came out as a post of questions concerning the food revamp. I hope I answered your questions. Give it some time, not all the areas have been updated, though we're probably about 80% there.

Kastellyn the Devourer of Magic, Lord of Legends