I wanted to toss the idea out there that if the Tribunal's item of power was taken, that all flags would be removed from those who were wanted at the time the scales were taken.

I think this would help greatly with the war between outlander and tribunal (especially since they get flagged for entering the spire). It would also fuel more conflict with other cabals (a good thing).

Take for instance the current state of the Maran/Tribunal relationships... with the evil tribunals attacking maran, and the maran attacking the evil tribunals, all maran tend to end up wanted. I think it would be fair if they did not think their warrents just, that they could just raid the place to get them removed. Now this would cause political problems between the two cabals, but isn't that half the fun?

...Rome...

Although i think your arguements dont make sense, about the warrants being removed, i do agree that this would be a lot of fun. It might even make the war between the Outlanders and the Tribunal a little more equal. And lets me honest, the Spire is whomping them right now I'd say.

I'll be honest, and please don't take this as a discouragement to posting other ideas:

I can't think of any version of this that wouldn't be completely stupid and utterly violate the concept of Law/Order the Tribunal cabal is grounded in.

No offense taken...

..However, I don't see how this would violate anything the tribunal stands for. They don't WANT their item taken.. that's why they protect it the way they do, by making criminals out of those who raid them.

It seems perfectly reasonable for me that you have Tribunal trying their best to enforce Law in the cities, and Outlander trying to tear down that order.

The only argument that I believe is a logical one for why the wanted flags should not be removed is to say that they are not magical in nature, but more of a written record that is maintained.

The argument I would make against this, is that it plays more like a magical marker that is placed on the criminal. If this were the case, one could easily envision a system where the flag is magically maintained by the scales of justice, and when they are stolen, the spire can't maintain the flags on those

I could see several ways to manage this so that more chaos is not created by the tribunals. Most of these revolve around adding specific rules for the involving not re-flagging people who seem to have mysteriously lost their flag.

If you think of it in terms of other cabals, this concept makes as much sense as Scion losing their nightwalkers when the Scepter is taken (Arn't nightwalkers independent beings cooperating based on an understanding?) or Empire not being able to bloodoath when the codex is taken.

When I think through the situations that would develop, I see many more opportunities for politics, treaties, betrayals, and soap opera drama by implementing this. All of these things make the game more fun and exciting.. which is what we want. The down side is that playing a trib gets to be more challenging (if you want to call that a downside).. and as I am historically and currently a big Arbiter/Tribunal player, this shouldn't be taken as sour grapes coming from the other side.

...Rome...

It makes less sense for tribunals to retain their flagging, guardcalling, and vigilance powers when not having the scales then it does for them to retain these powers. The fact is that magistrates can continue to do their job without the scales.... this hardly seems logical.

I have to disagree with both of you completely. Wanted flags are not magical at all. It is a written record of you being a criminal. Look at wanted <char> yes as a written record. Their powers are only good in the cities. That limits them more than any other cabal considering that they cannot gain titles in the cities. They lose all magical powers when they lose their item, but retain their abilities that are not magical in nature, just like Outlanders get to keep a couple of theirs. The Tribunal have more limitations than any other cabal and their punishments for abusing their powers are usually the most strict. Outlanders are not hindered by wanted flags at all except when they are in the cities or dealing with a Provost or Vindicator. If you are an Outlander who sees a flag as a major crutch, you are doing something wrong.

The explanation is that the scales are a symbol of tribunal's power. For other cabals, their item is the SOURCE of their power. Tribunal's are granted power by the cities they protect, not an item.

And why allow them to take other items? Why are they a cabal in the traditional sense at all if they are really just hired mercenaries who derive no rea power from their item of... power.

Cabals are not about the powers. There are certain disadvantages that every cabal will have by losing their item. The biggest disadvantage is meant to be a loss of morale, not the adding or removing of a power. I don't know about you, but when my mortal doesn't have their item, I am going to do whatever it takes to kick them to bring them down. I am certainly not thinking that because we have their item they can't use something against me. If we took the powers away from the items and just made them colored flags, there would still be cabal wars just for the flags. King of the hill.

As for why Tribunal can take items now is also quite simple. One of the biggest complaints from good Justices, Arbiters and Tribunals was that it could be quite boring. So, we gave them a cabal to actually war with. And it has worked out great. Outlander takes a beating for a few months, Tribunal takes a beating for a few months. Because of other cabal associations, they have even had wars with others.

I want to thank you for making Outlander available to war with Tribunal directly.. it has been a lot of fun. I don't want any of these comments to be taken as critism of the job you all are doing, it really is just random thoughts I'm spewing out to spawn some discussion so I have something to read at work (Thank you all for the entertainment).

Disclaimer over.

I think we all agree that one very valid way to look at tribunal's flags etc is that they are physical records and so forth.

The question is, is this the best way to look at it?

Consider my earlier arguments for why it would be benificial for flags to be able to be removed, and then consider possible ways to make it function realistically.

Perhaps the Trib Imm's decide to give them a power "boost" by replacing the scales of justice with the magical Tome of Justice, wherein all wanted criminals names are scribed so as to allow them an easier way to tell all those who are wanted at any given time. A side effect of this being, when the tome is stolen, obviously it could be tamperd with.

Anyways.. have a good night.

...Rome...

Flags are only a hinderance where criminals are not wanted. Outlanders don't care where they are criminals or not. In fact, if they go someplace where criminals are not wanted, they should want to tear down that place as well until the attitudes change. I have absolutely no reason to make the Tribunals job any tougher than it already is. Their power is in 4 cities and the spire aside from the odd Vindicator and a Provost. Every other cabal that has their item has their powers whereever they go. I don't think it would be fair to have every tribunal running around with vigilance and special guard. A wanted flag doesn't take away deathblow, chameleon or anything else like that. But their leaving the city strips them of all of their beneficial powers. Flags are only removable by death by design. You are a criminal...you need to die for your acts. Plain and simple.

Their power is in 4 cities and the spire aside from the odd Vindicator and a Provost. Every other cabal that has their item has their powers whereever they go.


Just curious, since when do we consider 3 vindicators the Odd vindicator? Personally I don't care one way about trib or outlander id never play either. Just playing devils advocate here..
Much Love
Parv

This is the first time in how many years? Ever?

I really don't see any problems with the way tribunal powers are working aside from bloody shackles being looked at. Just because they lose the scales, I don't think they should "forget" that someone is a criminal. Tribunal powers, for the most part, only work inside the cities and spire. And for the majority of Tribunals, they can only use these powers in the cities they are assigned to. Tribunals are supposed to be the power in the cities and for those who wish to break the laws of those cities, they should just deal with whatever punishment might be given to them.

As for outlanders, I look at a lot of hero outlanders who were considered successful and I see that they carry their flags for character years on end. Qing-11 flags, Eyzy-21 flags, Kazren-10 flags, Thilzhiloins-19 flags, Dalbiddle- 11 flags, Fereksah- 14 flags and the list goes on and on. Being wanted is not as much of a crutch as everyone puts it out to be. It is a bit tougher with a Vindicator and Provost, but they are very few. As for it being tougher on mages, this is true, but probably not nearly as bad as you might think. Reggie-24 flags, Alynana-3 flags and Dalbiddle above. Having watched these characters, I also know for a fact that most of the above deaths that came from losing the flag didn't come from Tribunals.

Looking at these facts and this post tells me just a few things:

1. The players this bothers the most are probably not ready for a life of crime.
2. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
3. Lowering the amount of protection in the cities for newbies would be a real bad thing.

On an aside, I would like to see more Tribunals help those out who died while they were under the protection of a city magistrate. This is just my opinion, and other imms might think just the opposite.

As for not making raiders wanted or losing their wanted status
that is just plain rediculous. Tribunal is the only cabal where
you can retrieve your item, step one room out into the city and
you are totally safe from reprisal unless you are in fact wanted.
Not only are you safe, but if you are attacked while in the city
the magistrate is duty bound to protect you. No other cabal comes
even remotely close to as easy to recover in that sense. All this
whining really just sounds like those who get wanted don't want to
have to suffer any consequences and that is just pathetic.

>"As for it being tougher on mages, this is true, but
>probably not nearly as bad as you might think."

Manacles really need to hinder everyone the same. Mages spells,
Priestly supplications, bard songs (except A Capella), warrior
specs, special skills like assassins kicks & throws, thiefly
skills and so on. Mind you I wrote hinder and not disallow. As
it is mages can perform spells there is just a chance it will
fail. So it should be with all other classes where there is a
good chance these skills and such will fail, but are not totally
disallowed like a forget spell. Perhaps manacles function to a
degree like this already but as a Magistrate I never saw it
happen to any but mages. As for Provosts, Justiciars, and of
course vindicators they should hinder the wanted even more but
still allow a chance to work, though bloody shackles need to do
alot less damage in that case.

>On an aside, I would like to see more Tribunals help those out
>who died while they were under the protection of a city
>magistrate. This is just my opinion, and other imms might
>think just the opposite.

It would be nice if guards could be ordered to rescue the 'victims'
rather than have to wait for them to attack the wanted as the delay
in attacking criminals can be quite long initially. This would go
a long way towards 'protecting' the people than just attacking the
criminal

(this is more wish list than realistic) Lastly it would be great if
somehow vigilance gave a chance to avoid an initial attack such as
"From the corner of your eye you see SoandSo lunge at you with his
weapon and you successfully avoid the attack" Magistrates being
vigilant would be more aware of their surroundings than most.

--Quezz

>> Manacles really need to hinder everyone the same. Mages spells,
Priestly supplications, bard songs (except A Capella), warrior
specs, special skills like assassins kicks & throws, thiefly
skills and so on. Mind you I wrote hinder and not disallow. As
it is mages can perform spells there is just a chance it will
fail. So it should be with all other classes where there is a
good chance these skills and such will fail, but are not totally
disallowed like a forget spell. Perhaps manacles function to a
degree like this already but as a Magistrate I never saw it
happen to any but mages. As for Provosts, Justiciars, and of
course vindicators they should hinder the wanted even more but
still allow a chance to work, though bloody shackles need to do
alot less damage in that case.

Manacles already do a decent job of messing up fighting classes. -10 dex and penalties to hit/dam aren't to be overlooked, especially the -10 dex cripples the defense of melee classes much worse than it cripples mage defense. Although i do agree that mages still suffer the worst. I could go along with manacles would hinder fighting to some further extend, under the restriction that it would only be applicable if the tribunal who cuffed you was in your pk range. Tribunals already have the best out-of-range pking abilities in the game, including some that can be outright abused to guarantee certain death of some victims (although I've never seen that being pulled off). However it would be ridiculous if some level 15 gimp can walk into a fight and turn your hero warrior into a vegetable.

>> It would be nice if guards could be ordered to rescue the 'victims'
rather than have to wait for them to attack the wanted as the delay
in attacking criminals can be quite long initially. This would go
a long way towards 'protecting' the people than just attacking the
criminal

I'm very much against this. I get alot of pleasure out of killing people in town, just in front of higher level tribs, and the delay before guards attack is often crucial to pulling this off. Not only that, but most of the (rare) occasions that I get attacked in town, I really don't want some tool to come rescue me because then I can't kill whoever attacked me without getting flagged.

The reason why tribs usually get their ass handed to them isn't because of their powers, but because most of the people playing tribs are either newbies or not very interested in/adept at pking. And even though I honestly believe that tribs are on average worse than other cabalmembers at pking, I still die more to tribunals than to other cabals. (Although many of these deaths don't show up because I either die to law-enforcing mobs or suicide in the hamsah cell).

Perhaps you all don't realize, that even with this, the Magistrates would sit back while they didn't have the scales, record all laws broke, and write warrants for each and every single one of them, then when the scales were back, everyone would still get wanted...


My 1/2 cent

The point is that there should be a way to become unwanted without dying. I don't know that I personally agree with it, I just think it should be something less of a pain in the ass to be wanted. An example might be if you're hardened enough of a criminal, guards won't attack you and might not guard channel til some time later. I just don't see guards splatting themself against the orc chief or leader of Battle because of a wanted flag. Additionally, I feel the annoyances of being wanted in and of themselves should be sufficient without the addition of uber-vindicators hunting you down out of range with level 60 guards and force duel.

I think this is something that could be used because as it stands, the Tribunals do not loose much when the scales get whisked away. This would give an actual drawback to them loosing the scales, as they loose track of whom is wanted and who is not.

The only thing I can think of is put like a 5 tick timer that they cannot automatically turn around and place flags on those that just raided.

I like it.

.

I think there would shortly be cries of people that got re-flagged, that say they weren't before. Also people getting flagged that ACTUALLY weren't wanted before. The only fair way to do it, is if all the flags are removed for downing the item, they shoud all be null and void period. Essentially no re-flagging, or we'll just have another abuseable tool.

If the scales were lost and the flags removed, tribs would have to assume all those who had a warrent had died and lost their flag.

Otherwise, like you said, there would be chaos.. and that's not what the tribunal is about, is it?

...Rome...

That's just dumb, read my above post, tribunals know who the criminals are, and they know who just broke the law to raid the spire, they will write warrants and serve them whenever they can... Why would they have to assume all those who were wanted had died?? That makes absolutely no sense at all... There would be no chaos, Tribunal already has things in place for when warrants can't be served, they wait until they can...

Unless something has changed, you can't place flags when you don't have the scales. If something has changed, it should be changed back :)

...Rome...

There are only a few positions in the Spire that loose all their powers
when they don't have the scales.

Magistrates can still flag and call guards, and of course, become
vigilant.


As for any changes to this, I would not be in favor. I site one simple
reason. One of the many functions of the Spire is to keep the cities
(relatively) safe, especially for newbies. We don't want to have newer
players getting killed in droves because Outlanders have the scales.
Can you still whack them in town? You betcha! But there is going to be
a consequence to this. I would be strenuously opposed to seeing any
change in this system.

Just my thoughts.


Grurk

And is quite frankly is a mostly BS argument IMHO. Newbies get whacked all the time. In cities and out. How hard is it to trick them into leaving a city (that actually has a magistrate just sitting there) if you REALLY want them dead? No too hard. I think the best alternative would be that the cabal what downs the scales has all their flags removed and can't be reflagged until the spire regains the scales. Would this give some low level outties the chance to wack with impunity and general cause chaos in cities? #### yea, but then that is what they are SUPPOSED to be doing, but generally can't when they are low level for fear of getting one rounded by hero level guards. Uncaballeds wouldn't enjoy this priviledge, so it isn't like knowing the scales are downed would cause rampant chaos, but it would allow outties to do their thing (at least while they had the scales). This is a good idea. I challenge you to say differently.

Ragers want to wack town sitting mages without getting flagged... they go grab the scales and start with the killing.... of course they've just started a war, but hey, it'd be fun. Any cabal that would realistically want a period of "lawlessness" for their members would have a chance at doing it. Of course, tribbies wouldn't get to rely 100% on their guardcall power, but then, that doesn't hurt my feelings at all.

There would be some minor division in some cabals as to whether or not the scales should be taken. You would have orderly people aiding the tribunals in retrieval against cabals they would probably otherwise leave alone. I could even see tribunals rallying a city of people together, to got take down the offending cabal's outer so that order could be restored. If this were to happen, I might actually want to play a tribunal.

I actually like the idea of people who depend on the safety of cities hating outlanders. It just makes sense in my eyes. Additionally, as others have responded newbies die a lot anyway, its more hurtful than helpful to give them the impression cities are always safe.

I don't think they like us very much, so we probably do more harm than help :P Of course, we could try and only make politely worded uber helpful posts, but what fun is that...

Are probably the only reason I wasn't perma-sitebanned from these forums a long time ago. Makes it harder for my biggest fan to slap a ban down on me when I play nice :).

I'm not sure what you are trying to say, but the Tribunal inner counts on raiders being wanted, as the guards it calls do not assist it. They just attack wanted people like guard mobs do. If you are not wanted, the worst thing the inner can do to you is normal blows and dirt kick. It will call its guards too, but they won't assist since you are not wanted. Feel free to raid Spire some time when no tribs are online to flag you and you'll see what I mean.

You could still get wanted for entering the spire. The guards would still attack you as usual. The only difference would be that if you win, and take the scales, you could have your flag removed when it got put down.

...Rome...