An Outlander buying preps from a store? A maran wearing an evil item because of better damroll? A villager quaffing a potion of return? "That's atrocious!" you'd say, and I would agree 100% if I saw that happening. If they're doing that, why are they even in the cabal? So why on earth do the Tribunal get away with breaking cabal protocol just so they can get a pk?

A lot of nefarious, questionable activity has been going on lately in Tribunal, for whatever reason. Maybe the imms aren't watching closely, maybe they don't care, maybe the tribs are just getting lucky. Who knows? But chasing a noncriminal into town and deliberately killing them. Or warranting a person when they did nothing wrong, summon them into a group and gank them and then not even give them a reason for why they were warranted... that's just insane. For a lot of things that have been happening lately, in the old Tribunal, these offending characters would be booted. I could understand a warning instead of instant-boot, but it seems it happens again, and again, and again. If you're one of these Tribunals reading this, and you know who you are, I'll have you know that most of your enemies want to rage delete.

So, I ask you. Is this fun? Do you like not having anyone to oppose you? Does being in a cake-walk cabal make the game a better place for you? Think about it. The more you gank, the fewer your enemies become, the less imm awards you'll end up getting. When you triumph against the odds is when you get noticed more often.

When you cheat or severely bend the rules just to gain an edge, does this make you a better player? Do you feel better sitting in a gang of four trying to gank a single player that could easily be brought down with a gang of two? In my honest opinion, gangs should be reserved for raiding situations. Three on three gangs are fun, while trying to gain the other cabal's item. Three on one gangs and looking for a way to gain a cheap kill is not fun.

I've played a lot of Outlanders and have been in one cabal or another plenty enough times. We've had the advantage sometimes and not others, so I can claim I don't do it just to play the "winning side". I purposely avoid being part of gangs, which is my style of play. I can understand a two-person gang. A four person one is just ridiculous, especially against someone who is alone, extra-especially if you have two guards for everyone in the gang. So, if the imms won't do anything or watchdog you a little better (because they shouldn't have to), I'll write this to appeal to your sense of decency, fairplay, honesty, and wanting to play a fun game.

While I leave (with good reason) most questions of balance and all that jazz to Nepenthe, I will say that the numbers of the cabals are very equal. Certainly there are periods where one will have 5 or the other, and I've seen a lot of great things out of both of you.

In regards to watching Tribunal, I do typically average 4 or 5 hours a day, but that is only so much. If you are seeing any problems, and do not want to get into it ICly, please e-mail me at dalteric@carrionfields.com. We've always felt that Tribunal/Arbiter require a lot of watching because of the sheer power of wanted, and if there are ickies and wrongdoings going on, I'd very much like to know about it.

First off, it seems to me that the Tribunal Imms are ALWAYS watching. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is always the impression I get. As far as people getting away with things, you would be surprised at how things are taken care of internally. As another already said though, We don't have to tell you what happens, just like you don't have to tell us what happens internally to you. I got busted down myself (yes that was me that attacked someone just outside the graveyard in Galadon).

As far as other players complaints that Tribs always full loot, let me just say this. I can think of only two outlanders, Qing and the old Pather Shifter (sorry can't think of your name at the moment) that did NOT either full loot or full sac everything I had, EVERYTIME (and trust me, I die alot to you guys). Why? Because it is a WAR. Did I complain about it here or in the game other than what I would IC, no. Why, because it is a WAR! If I wanted to hurt my enemy to keep them from coming right back at me as soon as they could, I would do what ever I could too. And I expect it to happen to me as well. If you don't like being in a war with the Tribs, don't play a outlander or stay out of the city.

Ok, I'm finished with my rant now, Feel free to rip it apart!

Murcadin

to never trust them, even if in town. You can always tell the ones who's eyes are gleaming with greed at your stuff. Some will break the law to kill you or arrange for you to be wanted. So try not to put yourself in that situation.

As far as tribunals breaking the law, ive done it as a trib. The key is to make sure you dont get caught. As a trib you dont really know if a trib god is watching or not. As a trib your best bet to break the law is to take advantage of situations of extreme chaos where even an imm might not notice a transgression. Ive been flagged in MS with 8 guards there because of my gear, I sort of antitipated the move however and managed to get away. Treachery is as common in CF as it is in RL. Dont trust anyone really, so what if they are trib and in town and you are their enemy and not wanted...yet? I have personally flagged marans for even looking at me the wrong way :P A few times I got away with it.

>An Outlander buying preps from a store? A maran wearing an
>evil item because of better damroll? A villager quaffing a
>potion of return? "That's atrocious!" you'd say, and I would
>agree 100% if I saw that happening. If they're doing that, why
>are they even in the cabal? So why on earth do the Tribunal
>get away with breaking cabal protocol just so they can get a
>pk?

When I played Tribunal the policy was that if your actions as magistrate lead to death of an innocent person(someone who didn't commit crime), meaning you kill him or warrant him wrongfully(either he didn't commit a crime or you didn't have authority to warrant him for it), you'd get booted from the cabal or be demoted. Have you played a Tribunal, broken the cabal rules regularly and got away with it? I didn't break the cabal rules when I played Tribunal, but I saw many booted for breaking the cabal's strict rules and policies. Also, my Outlander app was attacked in Galadon when not wanted by that snake magistrate, who was going to get demoted for it, but chose to be booted instead(to delete right after), so they didn't let it slip either(IIRC Imms were watching that well-rped magistrate for Vindicator).

If you feel that you are unfairly warranted or a magistrate breaks the law, feel free to send the Spire a note about it so that they can investigate the case and act upon it. If you don't complain and Imms don't happen to watch him, nothing is going to be done about it, since he isn't going to get caught.

why would an Outlander care ic about being warranted? Meakanera was warranted wrong once, but ic I didn't give a #### about the laws, so why would I complain. I could've wrote a note ooc, but that is just a hassle. By the times the Imms get the note it is likely they can't investigate the warrant.

breaking their own silly rules(heck some of the outties might think it is a good thing) but really it sucks being wanted 6 times in the chars lifetime...and four of them were not even for...anything at all. And, hearing this crap about tribbies killing people in town...and nothing is being done about this(yes, I know who the tribbie is in question...and it just sickens me). I am this --><-- close to just quitting cf because of this bs. I got punished with my first tribbie for a misflag that I tried to fix before the person even complained. I can deal with massive gangs, heck I can even deal with being full looted of earthen gear, but I cant deal with blatent, obvious spitting at thier own "so-called beliefs."

I liked this game because of the rp, very much so, and I try not to be a complete butthole about things(yes, I know I have ganged...dont think I have full looted though, but if I had, sorry man)...but I don't throw rp out the window.

So all those tribbies who think that gang banging an out of form shifter with four(or was it three...cant really tell?) people, and 4 guards...say so! It certainly wasn't fun for the shifter in question, and I am not sure why such an easy kill would be fun for you either. And those tribbies who like misflagging people...you suck. And those tribbies who dont follow their own "beliefs" and attack nonwanted people in town...you suck too. I really think the imms should crack down on this, please, before I go crazy, since really the outties cant complain.

I remember when Outties would TRY to get Tribs to trip up, because they all knew the consequences. There was one instance where, I think it was Aesrira, was fighting a trib in the graveyard, and then she lured him into town and he attacked her. His words immediately following that were "Oh crap..." and then he either got uninducted or demoted to Seantryn. If they don't want to be THAT strict, that's fine. But blatantly attacking a non-criminal in town in front of other tribunals without fear of retribution is completely reprehensible. I don't want Outtie to be stronger all the time or Tribunal to be stronger all the time. I just want the possibility of fairplay. Its bad enough that Outlanders lose all their abilities (just like just about any other cabal) when their item is gone, but Tribunal, the most unnopposed cabal in the game, gets to keep all their abilities. "Our item is gone!" "So? We can still do everything we normally can. We have guards, we have warranting ability. Let's just sit in our towns until all the Outlanders are gone, they we can easily go get it back. No big deal." I agree with Tiera somewhat that I'm about to take a respite from CF from the huge lack of RP from people. Okay, so you don't have to talk in a dwarven accent and roleplay a disco dancer, but the minimal requirements of cabal-rule following should be enforced.

Outlanders do not lose all of their cabal abilities when they don't have their item. GO FALCONS!

There is also a problem of outlanders all sitting in a big ambushing gang waiting for ages for people to retrieve, the idea being that they will never realise what a gang is waiting for them until it is too late.

If you do that, don't complain when no one walks into your trap. Tribs may have the numerical advantage but they don't actually know it half the time, and they are wary because they think they don't have the advantage. (None of my tribs sat on duty to avoid fair fights either.)

Tribs are very static when they are in town. That can be turned into a huge advantage for the attacker, if the trib isn't in his guild.

I know Dalteric watches Tribunal formally a fair bit most days. I know I do a fair bit of it myself informally, and a handful of other imms do as well. While there are the occasional slip-ups which are noted and usually result in demotions or worse, I can honestly say I haven't seen the like of the systematic abuse you're describing.

As an aside, I played both Tribunal and Outlander early this year when I had a lot more time to play and do CF stuff, and the Trib-Outlander balance is nowhere near as lopsided as you're suggesting. I think it's pretty close to dead-on, actually, with a few reservations that will probably be addressed eventually. You should try playing a Tribunal for once and get a feel how the other half lives. (Or accept that, while you've produced some great Outlanders, you're not in a position to accurately judge their balance.)

>>You should try playing a Tribunal for once and get a feel how the other half lives. (Or accept that, while you've produced some great Outlanders, you're not in a position to accurately judge their balance.)<<

I have. I know its hard because of the (normally) strict rules placed on Tribunal. Tribunal are SUPPOSED to be tough in the city, I agree completely. However, while some things have been sketchy, there have been amazingly blatant tribunal no-no's lately that I remember would have gotten most kicked out. At the moment, I'm an outsider looking in, though, so I can't tell you what the inner workings are like at the moment. If you tell me you're watching them but don't see these offenses when they're occurring, the offending players are just extremely lucky. Whatever.

My appeal is mainly to the tribs themselves.

1) RP like there is actually a difference between good and evil.
2) Trib-ganking someone who is virtually naked, has only food and water and then taking said food and water when you don't need it is unnecessary.
3) Warranting those that don't deserve warrants, killing them, and then not even telling them why they got the warrants is not right.
4) Realize that you're just making the war not fun. There's struggle, there's extreme difficulty, and then there is complete and utter overkill. Which category do you think you fit in?

I'm pretty much done with this. So, flame if you want. I'm going to log and at least TRY to make the game fun again for me.

One thing to keep in mind is that sometimes you think nothing happens to the tribs, but actually it does, or you were mistaken in what actually happened.

For example, I had people report a crime by a trib and also a complaint about my trib for not reporting the other trib (which I had, in fact, done), and in the event the trib was punished. I've also had people report that my trib stood by watching a crime by another trib when I wasn't even in town (I had an object that let me sneak), and despite the fact that I wasn't in town I still investigated and the person was punished (for what was actually an unintentional mistake).

What you need to bear in mind is that tribs are in NO way obliged to discuss internal discipline and punishments with you.

>My appeal is mainly to the tribs themselves.
>
>1) RP like there is actually a difference between good and
>evil.

Agreed. Some tribs are good at this, but some are really bad. I remember paladins used to come and help my necro get gear I wanted.

>2) Trib-ganking someone who is virtually naked, has only food
>and water and then taking said food and water when you don't
>need it is unnecessary.

It's a very pathetic thing to do, imho, but totally unrelated to being a trib though. I have been treated the same way by a few outlanders despite the fact that I never did this to any. Apparently it was ok for them to do it to me because other tribs did it to them. Maybe it never occurred to them that this encourages more tribs to do it to them, and so on. It's a vicious circle. Nevertheless, other tribs are fine. For example, when I died trying to kill Dazan and his special guards, he remembered that I left almost all his stuff so he returned almost all of mine.

>3) Warranting those that don't deserve warrants, killing them,
>and then not even telling them why they got the warrants is
>not right.

If they don't tell you why they are warranting you, and there is no reasonable excuse (like the fact they were trying to chase you) that prevented them from having the time to tell you, they've breached trib law. Report it, and it is likely they'll get a warning (since this is a fairly minor offense if it is simply forgetting to say why when the crime was a genuine one). If they do it again, they'll probably get demoted. Personally though, if someone committed a crime right in front of me, and they were a regular criminal, I usually skipped the explanation because everyone knew what the flagging was for (e.g. a guy that looted Aesrira's corpse in front of me, and apologised for breaking the law right before he did it).

>4) Realize that you're just making the war not fun. There's
>struggle, there's extreme difficulty, and then there is
>complete and utter overkill. Which category do you think you
>fit in?
>

Both sides are guilty of this (as are many other cabals).

>I'm pretty much done with this. So, flame if you want. I'm
>going to log and at least TRY to make the game fun again for
>me.

The best way to do that is to encourage your allies to treat others better, imho. Otherwise your enemies are just seeing the same thing as you, from a different perspective.

The one thing you bring up I see more than anything is the good/evil thing.

There is no greater pet peeve to me among Tribs...and Outlanders actually then watching the cabals throw their aligns away and just because mindless members of said cabals. It's like you're good, you join Trib/Outlander, and suddenly you're just a Trib/Outlander. I've seen this happen in both cabals. Trib paladin happy as a clam working alongside Trib necromancer ganking down Outlander goodie, and not really RPing out any sort of remorse for having to do that. I mean I'm cool with trib pally killing Outlander goodies, but I'd expect to see some sort of reaction or remorse out of it. The same goes for the reverse too. There was a brief period recently where I saw Outlander good/evils going at it with each other. This is the kind of thing I like to see. There were some pretty fun things to watch during the brief Outlander/Fort war.

Anyway, this rambling rant is just to say if you join Outlander/Trib...try to keep your align in mind and keeping playing it. Don't let the cabal wash it out. I think it's a hard thing to do to be both a good goodie/evil and a good trib/outlander. It's easier to do one or the other, so if you really wanna stand out, try to do both.

There was a brief period recently where I saw Outlander good/evils going at it with each other. This is the kind of thing I like to see. There were some pretty fun things to watch during the brief Outlander/Fort war.

Of course I can almost guarantee that will never happen again.

Of both the Fort/Outlander War and Intra-Outlander conflicts, that I have seen start to brew.

Just something fun to be watching for on the Horizon.

/

Not just Trib and Outlander, but any cabal. Probably the Trib, Outlander, and Battlerager cabals should have the more physical disagreements, but the Scions as a whole, the Empire's different sects, and even the way Marans/Acolytes decide to accomplish things. I can't really see a Maran attacking an acolyte, but everyone's views are different and should vocalize that they disagree. Not to mention ethos. A chaotic good may want to set the laws aside to kill that duergar in the town while a lawful good may be concerned with innocent people getting hurt in the process.

I just can't stand cookie-cutter renditions of everyone. Twelve dwarf paladins all with the same mindset, viewpoints, ethos all saying they hate evil seems pretty boring. I like it when people try to set themselves apart from others. The mysterious lone Imperial striking down others in the name of creating order.. that's neat. The faceless gankwhore Imperial clone bashing from behind three other Imperials is... just ugh.

By the way, I love the sour relations between Outlanders with each other. Its why I keep going back.

While it wasn't the answer Phindar expected during the interview, he gave me kudos for sticking to my opinion.

Much like Arvam, disregarding character alignment while in a cabal, tends to annoy me. While I do my best to watch the goodies of Outlnaders, I cannot see all the transgressions. Having a basically good-based religion alongside of cabal duties, I am aware of certain pitfalls associated with both. Often, goods/evils toss out,or temper down their alignements to work within the cabal stucture. Sometimes this is needed for raid/retrieval situations...anything beyond this and I have a problem.

I try to make it clear to goody Outlander and those who follow my religion, that if they are nice to evils, they will hearrom me. In my case, I place my religion over cabal interests (aside from raid/retrievals). Other imms handle their followers/cabals in their own fashion, and that is their business.

Blatant disregard for alignment will not go unpunished, though the degree of punishment will vary by offense among my followers.

You currently have a tatted, titled goodie outlander who attacks other good aligned people with zero signs of remorse or hesitation. Since this character has been doing the same thing since I was in my teens, I know it's not a "new" thing.

I sent up a few prays about it the first time, and was basically told "tough ####". I know this characters behavior has been reported, since I did so. Nothing was done. Since this character conducted themselves this way that early on (pre outlander) I can only assume their behavior is being fully condoned and encouraged by the rewards typically associated with good roleplay. (IE Tats, titles and the like) Just today this character ran into the Chasm during a raid, and rather than attacking the evils inside, immediately attacked me for being a conjurer. Once I fled out to avoid killing this person, they THEN attacked the Scions. This character has placed cabal goals above alignment, which is a fine roleplay choice. But they have done so with zero penalty, which is just mind boggling to me. Good aligned villagers have been turned and suffered penalties for less blatant goodie-attacking, and they are not even priests. To have a priest of a religion carrying on like this, consequence free, really makes people wonder (and not just me) if alignment and roleplay are even enforced anymore. I'll be honest, when I read your post I just sat and shook my head in wonder that you could possibly have missed this behavior.

As far as the tribunal situation goes, I have personally seen Provincials (and a few others I will not name speficially) attacking non criminals in town, and then warranting the victim so they could bring their powers to bear on them. I have seen Magistrates and even provincials helping retrieve the Scepter with Scions who are habitual criminals, travelling with them frequently to gank down people. Am I seeing this from all of the provincials or Magistrates? No, not at all. But I see a few stand out repeat offenders carrying on without being busted down for it.

I know we try to have a delicate balance between "hands offness" from the immstaff, and enforced roleplay. I know in the past there's been people crying "Don't smack me down for playing outside of the box", which has probably contributed to the things we're seeing now. But without certain things being enforced (conduct for good aligned players, cabal policies being adhered to) to a greater degree than I think they are currently, you have a lot of people scratching their heads and wondering where all the "enforced roleplay" is.

Do I think all good aligned people should be shiny happy people holding hands? No. Do I think all Tribunals should be above corruption? Again, no because neither of those things is realistic. But when you do things counter to your supposed beliefs, I do think there should be some sort of drawback to your actions. If the players don't have the ability to roleplay this (guilt for goodies who attack other goodies, etc etc) then the immortals need to step in and lay down a little drawback of their own, IMHO. Otherwise whats the point of claiming we promote roleplaying, when everyone can just carry on any old way they want, with no consequences for their actions?

People say goodies hold hands with each other and cheer each other up but being a goodie is more along the lines of acting in such a way that you take into consideration the greater good in your actions. Now the fortress version of greater good has become the standard and theirs is simply everyone with a gold aura is the goal. Outlanders and tribunals have a slightly different approach at what constitutes the greater good and sometimes that overlaps with other goodies. In these cases I expect them to attack and kill other goodies, now the difference is they should be treated with respect to a degree. For instance I see no problem with a goodie outlander running up to a paladin and bashing him to death but asking the paladin to group then bashing him would be poor role play.

Should they cry everytime they kill a goodie well it depends on your role but its acceptable to feel inner anguish at killing goodies without emoting and having a deep conversation everytime.

if I was sober this post would not feel so random but bottem line is the fortress version of greater good is not the only version and as long as they are trying to create goodness around them then I don't see any problem with cutting down a few goodies in the way.

I am only going to address the part of your post that applies to myself, my followers, and my religion. I have not fielded any of your prays, so I cannot address what was said. I was, however, listening in on the Fortress channel when you spent a bit time speaking out on what yourself mention in your post. I reviewed the logs prior to your complain that a Lightwalker attacked you, and I didn't see any such attack in the logs. I did see where one of my followers died on a defense just prior to your statement. It may have happened much earlier, but I only went back an hour from your cabal channel complaint. I did see that you died in a defense about that time.

Here is how it works for me: My goodly followers are good first and if they belong to any cabal, they can be that second. If they see something against my religion/anti-religion, they are free to act against the event or person(s). If a goody follower steps over the line, I may or may not catch it the first or twentieth time, but eventually through observation, player note or immortal comment, I usually find out. When I do find out, I will take action, though not necessarily on the first or second event. That action can be in many varied forms, but I usually do something if it is blatant.

Should lightwalkers attack other lightwalkers? You're right, they can under certain circumstances and conditions...as you note, I expect there to be some rp in there, whether remorse, pennance or divestiture of worldly possessions...something.

In short, you know my feelings, limitations (I have a real life also ;)), and beliefs. If I am aware of it as a valid problem, I will deal with it as soon as I can.

Thanks for your help and concerns.

Don't discuss active characters.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I recently had a character forced to delete because of discussing active character and my forum handle being able to be linked to previous chars, in the interest of satisfying my need to feel that the situation was really neccesary were the parties in this subthread made to delete as well?

Not the same thing at all.

.