Hi.

I'm thinking I'd like to try out a thief. I've seen the thief builder tool and have searched through a lot of the helpfiles but I have a number of questions as I try to figure out what a good balanced build looks like. Any advice would be really helpful regarding must-have skills or combos that are highly recommended or very commonly taken...

1) Do most people follow a single path to the end, or do most people mix and match quite a bit? Are there certain skills (thresholds) you'd recommend hitting for each path to make it worth it--if so, which are most important as a strong PKer?

I'm thinking of making a (primarily) binder, but not clear on how far it's worth going in that path or others. Also open to other suggestions as a moderately experienced player but totally new to thief class. I want a strong PKer, as much as is possible for thieves. Thinking about a villager, perhaps, for what it's worth.

2) How useful is climb? Where are some examples where it can be used? Can it get to you places like arial city or around the south bend of Hamsah outskirts, etc.?

3) Do most people take shield block? Would it generally put you at a disadvantage not to take it? Costs a lot.

4) Does blackjack operate differently than garrotte or weapon butt blackjack? Should a character only take one of these, or does it benefit a binder-focused thief to have various options to knock people out? Are they affected differently by the size of your opponent (what would be best for a gnome that might be fighting bigger opponents regularly)? Which is most reliable?

5) I'm unclear on when people can see what you're doing as a sneaking thief. Can people see you when sneaking and hidden, anytime you look at them? Thus, is eye of averice a pretty critical one to take?

6) How important is improved hide?

7) Advanced lockpicking/locksmithing...especially when having around average intelligence, are they really useful/needed for getting decent higher level treasures or access to high level areas out there?

Thanks for answering any or all of these questions or for your general thoughts and how to pick from the many options. I know a lot of it is personal preference, but also some insight on overall balance and usefulness can really help reduce the learning curve.

The level of customizations in this game make it really awesome but are also sometimes overwhelming. Gotta rely on you veterans for help!

1) Do most people follow a single path to the end, or do most people mix and match quite a bit? Are there certain skills (thresholds) you'd recommend hitting for each path to make it worth it--if so, which are most important as a strong PKer?

--Most? maybe, A lot, yes. Also to the PK portion, Thug thieves are often cited as pkish thieves as they are typically the most physically potent thieves and as such many of their abilities are taken as multi-path ones.

2) How useful is climb? Where are some examples where it can be used? Can it get to you places like arial city or around the south bend of Hamsah outskirts, etc.?

-- Yes you can get to places like Arial city with it.

4) Does blackjack operate differently than garrotte or weapon butt blackjack? Should a character only take one of these, or does it benefit a binder-focused thief to have various options to knock people out? Are they affected differently by the size of your opponent (what would be best for a gnome that might be fighting bigger opponents regularly)? Which is most reliable?

-- Each knockout ability works differently, and each has it's uses. I would rate weapon butt<blackjack<garrotte for landing knockout in my experience but each has it's use. Also you can't use garrotte for example on 2 size larger opponents, ie-> svirf against giant. Unless it was changed in the past.

5) I'm unclear on when people can see what you're doing as a sneaking thief. Can people see you when sneaking and hidden, anytime you look at them? Thus, is eye of averice a pretty critical one to take?

-- If your hidden, people can't see what your doing for the most part, looking at someone included. If this were the case people wouldn't stick around and get robbed blind by a good thief before they even notice.


6) How important is improved hide?

-- In my opinion, nice to have but not super important because you get used to tell.=someone bla bla=.. *hide* *hide* *sn*sn* to the point where it is natural.

7) Advanced lockpicking/locksmithing...especially when having around average intelligence, are they really useful/needed for getting decent higher level treasures or access to high level areas out there?

-- I enjoyed having advanced lockpick as my last bandit king, as there were very few places I couldn't go, or things I couldn't get to. As a svirf it worked great. Yes, to some treasure, but getting to the places with it normally takes more than just your self anyway.

Take all of these for what they are worth, Opinion and Personal experiences only, not to be confused with Facts from Code.

I heard you can get to be a guild leader by getting tons of gold. Can someone elaborate a little? What's the process and how much gold (ballpark) are we talking about?

Also, is that gold that's in the bank or do you have to make donations somehow in the guild? I haven't see a way to do so.

Are there any benefits to being a guild leader other than the title and general badass factor?

>I heard you can get to be a guild leader by getting tons of
>gold. Can someone elaborate a little? What's the process and
>how much gold (ballpark) are we talking about?

Help Kingpin will get you started about the guild leaders. Ultimately, you get to be a leader by winning a "Vote". A vote for leadership may be called by someone who is an elite member of the guild, and everyone who is elite may cast a vote for someone. In the case of a tie, whoever has the most donations wins. As to how to donate to the guild, help guild join should explain most of that.

Typically, Galadon, Hamsah Mu'tazz, and occassionally Voralian City are the only three major thieves' guilds that have much if any activity. Often, if no-one is the leader of Dagdan or Blackclaw, you can become elite, call a vote, and win by default.

>Also, is that gold that's in the bank or do you have to make
>donations somehow in the guild? I haven't see a way to do so.

As above, it should be rather well detailed in the "Help Guild Join"

>Are there any benefits to being a guild leader other than the
>title and general badass factor?

There's two or three "handy" skills you get, but I forget what they are offhand.

>I heard you can get to be a guild leader by getting tons of
>gold. Can someone elaborate a little? What's the process and
>how much gold (ballpark) are we talking about?
>
>Also, is that gold that's in the bank or do you have to make
>donations somehow in the guild? I haven't see a way to do so.
>
>Are there any benefits to being a guild leader other than the
>title and general badass factor?

I try to always join a guild with the intention of eventually becoming guild leader. There's few enough guild members to make that a reality in all of the guilds other than the Galadon one. Of my last 10 or so thieves, 8 of them have taken over the guild unopposed.

All it takes is donating 500 gold to the guild to become elite, then you can call a vote. If you are the only elite, you win by default. If the other elites are inactive for a few days and don't vote, you can still win by default.

Guild leaders get 3 minor skills which used to be city slicker abilities before the revamp. Guild Protection, Shopkeeper Favors, and City Ties. All have some niche uses, but aren't anything that will really give you an edge.

It's mostly a RP opportunity, as the title makes people want to talk to you. Which can be annoying, since everybody assumes you are now their personal mobile shopping center for limited gear.

I've had a lot of experience with thieves, having played all of them multiple times except for poisoners (which have never appealed to me).

You can take one full path and a few general skills and be very viable. There's no need to rely on Devious Versatility edge(s) to make you do well. It all depends on your knowledge level and what kind of circumstances you will fight in.

City Slickers do well alone or in cabals. They aren't great at killing, but are great at surviving and hoarding shinies.

Binders do well if they are in circumstances where they can fight their targets alone. Cabal warfare, shifters, and outlanders in particular make many of their advantages disappear.

Thugs can do well in many circumstances, as pure combat is always useful.

Trappers and poisoners are a huge investment in time and energy, and I will refer you to earlier discussions on their viability.

Climb is useful for ragers who can't use flight potions. For everybody else, there's better skills.

Gentle Walk should be mandatory for all thieves. It's just that good.

Shield Block is good if you tank a lot (as a non-felar). You can get some ranking mileage from it, and it helps if you only intend to knock out and rob your foes, but it will be very limited if you actually intend to kill another player. Your only saving grace as a thief is doing as much damage as possible before your target escapes, shields will only make that impossible.

Blackjack, garrotte, and weapon butt blackjack all have different strengths and weaknesses. Blackjack has some of the most noticeable advantages in success rate, so it's not uncommon to take it even when you already have another knockout skill. If you are wanting to knock people out as a gnome, be prepared either to learn traps/poisons or become familiar with cheap enlarge preps.

Discerning gaze hides the room echo people get when you look at them from the shadows. And it's nice, but not critical unless you are scoping out somebody who is likely to let loose some area damage to flush you out.

Improved hide, has some uses but can be skipped without any regrets.

The locksmithing path is rather niche and can be skipped.

There's some good skills in the Mystic path, scrolls should be a high priority for any non-rager thief. The other mystic skills are less critical. There's just too many buffs and maledictions in scrolls you can pick up easily which will swing a fight heavily into your favor.

My advice is to search the PBFs of past thieves to see what combos they have worked with and what edges they took, and you will get a decent idea of what is possible. I would also suggest just playing whatever sounds good and using that experience for future characters.

>Hi.
>
>I'm thinking I'd like to try out a thief. I've seen the thief
>builder tool and have searched through a lot of the helpfiles
>but I have a number of questions as I try to figure out what a
>good balanced build looks like. Any advice would be really
>helpful regarding must-have skills or combos that are highly
>recommended or very commonly taken...


I've never played a neo-thief, but this is what I've gleaned from other's experiences. Take it for what it is worth.

>1) Do most people follow a single path to the end, or do most
>people mix and match quite a bit? Are there certain skills
>(thresholds) you'd recommend hitting for each path to make it
>worth it--if so, which are most important as a strong PKer?

Most thieves take a path to sort of the "signature" skill, then decide if they want to take it to the end or pursue some other skills from general skills or from another path. Some of the signature skills would be like acrobatics in pickpocket or truss in binder.

>I'm thinking of making a (primarily) binder, but not clear on
>how far it's worth going in that path or others. Also open to
>other suggestions as a moderately experienced player but
>totally new to thief class. I want a strong PKer, as much as
>is possible for thieves. Thinking about a villager, perhaps,
>for what it's worth.

Binder is a decent path for a villager. One thing to keep in mind is that drag is size/str based and shadow drag doesn't prevent the victim from making themselves visible as far as the last I'd heard.

>2) How useful is climb? Where are some examples where it can
>be used? Can it get to you places like arial city or around
>the south bend of Hamsah outskirts, etc.?

For a villager, climb is extremely useful unless you are playing an arial as it will let you get at areas that would otherwise require flying which you can't get as a villager due to magical restrictions (again unless you are an arial).

>3) Do most people take shield block? Would it generally put
>you at a disadvantage not to take it? Costs a lot.

I wouldn't recommend it for the same reasons Tsunami cites below.

>4) Does blackjack operate differently than garrotte or weapon
>butt blackjack? Should a character only take one of these, or
>does it benefit a binder-focused thief to have various options
>to knock people out? Are they affected differently by the size
>of your opponent (what would be best for a gnome that might be
>fighting bigger opponents regularly)? Which is most reliable?

Blackjack requires you to "wield" a blackjack item in one hand. You can use it on anyone one greater than your size or smaller. Can use on fighting people.

Weaponbutt blackjack uses your weapon and follows the same rules as blackjack AFAIK but with reduced success.

Garotte cannot be performed on fighting opponents, but has a good success rate.

>5) I'm unclear on when people can see what you're doing as a
>sneaking thief. Can people see you when sneaking and hidden,
>anytime you look at them? Thus, is eye of averice a pretty
>critical one to take?

If they can't see you, they can't tell you looked at them. Anything that causes you to step out they can see, as well as anything with a room echo (like assassin endure). Most things they won't see unless it causes you to step out. Scout ragers can stay hidden when calling rager powers, but the room echo still happens I believe.

>6) How important is improved hide?

AFAIK this just lets you stay hidden while doing a couple of things. I think mostly just tells and cb. If there are others I'm not aware, but maybe opening doors/containers (that might be a different skill)

>7) Advanced lockpicking/locksmithing...especially when having
>around average intelligence, are they really useful/needed for
>getting decent higher level treasures or access to high level
>areas out there?

Wouldn't bother with a rager. Is more important for gold gathering than anything else I can think of.

>Thanks for answering any or all of these questions or for your
>general thoughts and how to pick from the many options. I know
>a lot of it is personal preference, but also some insight on
>overall balance and usefulness can really help reduce the
>learning curve.
>
>The level of customizations in this game make it really
>awesome but are also sometimes overwhelming. Gotta rely on you
>veterans for help!

Shield block is expensive and I think most people would agree that using a shield in PvP unless you are a shield dedicant paladin isn't usually the best option. A thief needs to kill quickly so dual wielding is almost always the better option. Most importantly the cost is what, 10 thief points? That is a lot for something that you shouldn't be using except in maybe specific situations.

I'd scrap lock picking abilities if you plan to focus on PK as well.

I believe climb lets you get into Arial city. Don't know about anything else. I'd imagine the trail around Hamsah and the snow wurm lair are probably places it comes in handy as well.

Someone else recently asked this and I didn't see an answer...does gag keep magi from casting spells?

Also, how effective is acrobatics? Seems like a non-arial villager would really benefit from it...how often will it actually prevent a bash or trip from landing against you? Is it based on any stats or size, etc?

I've been told second hand by the player of an arial thief city ties that acrobatics on an arial is damn near immunity to bash. You don't really need it so much for trip since you will be flying.

If gag doesn't stop magi from casting then it is stupid. Just remember that there is an order bindings fall off in battle (I don't know the order) and that the more chaos there is in the battle (the more people) the faster things will fall off.

I'd look up logs of binders on QHCF to determine what order and get a feel for how quickly things will fall off once you initiate combat.