Tue Oct 27 23:12:50 2009

At 9 o'clock PM, Day of the Moon, 7th of the Month of the Dragon
on the Theran calendar Aesur perished, never to return.

Race:	elf
Class:	paladin
Level:	39
Alignment:	Good
Ethos:	Orderly
Cabal:	FORTRESS, the Fortress of Light
Age:	329
Hours:	116

Yean, let me know if you want it unlocked.

When I first created this characther, and was interviewing for the Fortress, I was speaking with someone who I will leave nameless, but they were trying to convince me of some pretty obvious bs Fortress dogma, which I listened to for about a real life hour. In frustration, I sent up a pray which was exactly this "I would rather have my teeth pulled than get interviewed by another Fortress NEWBIE!!!" I am sure some of you will recall the obnoxious title I had for a day or so (thanks for killing my charachter nameless Imm), but it was a completely OOC situtation, which Aesur kept getting punished for IC. After that situation, I added probably four or five more role entries, no exp, I spent a week praying in Yeans shrine, no interaction, she finally vis's herself only to say, This had to be quick, I need to leave, but when two of her other followers show up she stays for better than a half hour to RP.

So, I pray to speak with her OOC, and she pretty much tells me that it will take 'awhile' to impress her with this charachter because of that OOC situation. Well, I am not sure what 'awhile' is in most peoples opinions, but 116 hours on a MUD pretty much embodies 'awhile' in my book. It just seems to me that no matter what I do, I cannot manage to get the same treatment from the Imms that others get. Not sure if Yeans storm pallie is still around, but I saw him one day as Eldarus, at about rank 15, and a day, or maybe two later after I had created Aesur he was rank 41 and in the guild practicing the Temperance skillset, yet myself who has spent all this time, wrote about ten role entries, was the deadliest Squire in the Fortress at this time, gets nothing because of some OOC prayer I randomly sent up. I am tired of begging the Imms for fair treatment, if I even return to playing, which this has sapped what little desire I had left after nearly ten years, it will be as I used to play, no role, basic desc, just enough to get me by so I can do the things I enjoy doing, and to hell with them.

Now for the rest of you, I had some great fights with some of you, I would say Sharzula was by far my strongest foe, just too bad she was nearly blatantly OOC about accusing me of getting the Fortress to gear me. Whch by the way, Dupmasione did pass me I think three, very, very nice pieces of gear, as he upgraded his set, but the rest I gathered on my own, either by PK, or taking enormous amounts of time to slay mobs that I really shouldnt be able to slay. To all you neutrals who cursed me for breaking up your learning groups, it was nothing personal, just me trying to do what I thought an elven paladin should do when he encountered people killing innocents, but well look where that got me, so you wont have to worry about it anymore.

As for the trolls about the delete being because I lost my 'shinies', no in fact I left them in a huge heap on the Fortress floow, right next to my heart for playing CF for a while if ever. I keep hearing Imms and players talk about the low player base, and I can guarantee you that situations like this do not help those numbers at all. I imagine most intelligent newbies will do like I did, and go search some PBF's for certain Imm followers before creating an empowerment char, and I have to say that Yean 'seems' to be real, real friendly with the blessings, or at least she was to every priest whos PBF I read, paladins with two virtures in their early ranks and all, but when you do such things, then you leave another persons charachter pretty much hanging out to dry, it will cause resentment, frustration, anger, and well pretty much lots of reasons to find another place to play.

-I choosed Imm based on easy go virtues and got nothing in 100 hours for OOC preys, killing neitrals and deaths to the single mage! I was teh uber! And you! you gave me nothing!-

Thank you. We got your point. Good luck.

No, I chose the Imm that was around during my play times, I sent up one OOC pray, not 'prey' you jackass, I killed I think or or two neutrals, probably around fifteen or so darkies, and since you know that Sharzula killed me I will assume your playing her, which wouldnt be a shock as she was almost always OOC with her comments, as well you are quite known for.

Since its hard to you to realize your mistakes.

I will help you, my young padavan.

A) Did you constantly send OOC Prays as the empowerment char?

B) Did you kill and attack neitrals on the regular basis?

C) Did you expect virtues in your 100 hours and got pissed?

D) Were you seek powers and not rp?

E) Are you trying char assasination on Sharzula right now?

Look in yourself. You will find answers my young padavan.

Your more of a moron than I remembered Beront, every one of those asinine questions is answered in my previous post, but just to clear it up for those of us who chose to stay in a drunken stupor most of their lives here goes.

A)No, I sent up one OOC pray, at the very beginning of the charachter's life.

B)I did not kill, nor attack neutrals on a regular basis, if I found them killing Lighthearted creatures, and there were no evil ones with them, I would ask them nicely and kindly to stop, and go elsewhere, even offering my aid sometimes if they would, I did kill I think two neutral characheters, who were defending a fire giant that they travelled with, thats it.

C)I did not expect virtues in 100 hours, but well everyone else seems to get at least one, if not two in that amount of time, to get none was a bit of a dissapointment I will admit. However, to be told that an OOC issue was the main cause for this lack, made me hit the roof.

D)I RP'ed quite a bit with this charachter, I would say moreso than any previous charachter of mine, sphere Knowledge Yean follower, I spent alot of time in the Lyceum, talking to Heralds, random areas looking for lost tidbits about the history of the elves, and I *gasp* even wrote a bunch of role entries about all this, that I got absolutely nothing for.

E)As for trying to charachter assassinate the transmuter, its just my opinion that she was pretty blatantly OOC in most of her tells to me, I was moreso trying to charachter assassinate you, but your charachter is corpse long rotted Beront, we all know this.

It will be hard to heal you, my padavan. But I will try.

A) One OOC tell? No, you sent atleast two. Reready your farewell post. You sent another tell before your deletation. Reread your farewells with Eldarus - its your normal behavior. Reread logs with you on Dios.

B) Reread your farewell post. You said the you were ATTACKing neitrals on the regular basis.

C) Reread your answer. Quickly. You expected it.

D)--I spent alot of time in the Lyceum, talking to Heralds-- #### THAT MADE YOU THE GREATEST ROLEPLAYER IN CF!

E) So, char assassination. No more questions.

You are so obviously an idiot Beront, that I find myself wondering why I am even responding to you, but well, since I refuse to log on and play, I got nothing better to do at the moment so here goes.

A)No one ever said anything about an OOC 'tell' jackasss, I sent one OOC 'pray', and it is quite acceptable for me to ask a non-vis Imm if I may speak to them OOC over the pray channel, which is what happened before my deletion, once again your ignorance is a shining example. As for what happened with during Eldarus's life, that should have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on Aeusr, and as for reading anything on Dios', theres a reason I have been here for ten years, and logged on to that site maybe twice, its full of misinfo, doctored logs, and well people like you.

B)As for my farewell post, it DOES NOT say anything about me attacking neutrals on a REGULAR basis, I attacked neutrals probably three times in my charachters life, and two of those were after seeking the Marshal and Captains advice on how to deal with them if they would not leave off from slaying those who Aesur was sworn to protect. Once again, ignorance raises its ugly head.

D)And I never made any claims to great RP, just RP in general, whch me spending alot of time reading crap that I have read many, many times, asking about things that I already know the answer to, learning to play the lyre, guess what Beront, thats what RP is, its not a triggered esay, or some lame ass emote that you use every time you rest. Is ignorance truly bliss, I have always wondered?

E)As for charachter assassination, you began this war of wits friend, with your petty troll of my post, is it my fault you came unarmed?

C)What I expected was to be judged, and awarded or punished on the same scale as every other player here at CF, this did not happen, end of story.

A) SO, it was two tells.

B) --and beat them good enough to make them leave the Battlefields, or the loch, without actually slaying a single one, I did this quite often.--

D) If sitting in the Inn is rp and killing neitrals is rp and ooc tells is rp - Ok. You are good in it

E) Do you understand that I am not that mage? You are silly :)

C) You did. You sent OOC tells. You got punished for that. End of story.

ntnt

So, you send up an OOC prayer that is simultaneously arrogant and whiney, and you expect the staff to completely ignore that when interacting with your character?

If I were stuck in an interview with someone I thought was dead wrong, at some point I'd politely tell them that we're going to have to agree to disagree. I'd point out that their view of things is entirely valid within the Fortress, but that I feel mine is as well. I'd ask them, again politely, that if they feel like my view is incompatible with Fort doctrine, to make note of that in their report to the Fort leaders, and mention that I look forward to discussing it with said leaders. Then I'd approach one (or both) of the leaders and see if I even have a shot, or if they agree with the guy who was interviewing me that my view of things is incompatible with Fort doctrine.

If I send up an OOC pray, do I expect it to be used against me IC, uhmmmmm no. Was it the best move to send up this pray, probably not, but after of an hour of hearing that Maran are not allowed to say that they 'slay' evil, that they must use the term 'cleanse', I was frustrated and sent up the pray, I personally find it neither arrogant, nor whiney, simply the truth of how I was feeling at that moment. Given that, the Imms have better things to deal with, I know this, and I could have understood them saying something to me about it, which they did, and which the whole situation was cleared up, as far as I knew. Does one random pray deserve a #### title, and having my charachter pretty much #### on by my empowering Imm, hardly. I would be willing to bet that even the great Isildur has at some point in his career lost his cool and sent up a OOC pray that was uncalled for, and I would also warrant that you got none of the repercussions I did.

I'm going to respond to this for a rather selfish reason. Because I could have written this, oh 8-10 years ago about this mud. I totally understand everything you're saying, and sympathize.

I'm responding not because I expect you to say "Wow, thanks Balten / Grudan for showing me the true path", but maybe, just maybe, it'll take you a few years less to 'get it' then it did me, and I'd call that a positive whatever you're response is in the short term.

Short version: You caused all your own problems with your attitude, and decided to blame everyone for it but yourself, even through to your deletion thread where you still seem to be blaming everyone else.

First off. Let me see if I understand this. Someone in the Fortress spent an hour of their time of their own free will talking to you for a recommendation dealing with your RP, and you actually GET the recommendation (I'm assuming) and the first thing you do is send up a prayer bitching about how painful it was to get it? Really? You got what you wanted and then complained about it?

If we stop there, can you understand why maybe noone would want to be real interested in talking to you any further and consider you a whiny bitch? If you complain about getting what you want, why wouldn't you then complain about everything else later?

Second of all, why was that an OOC prayer? We have to assume the interview was IC, right? You were playing your role, right? We have to give the other person the benefit of the doubt they were playing a role, right? So...what were you basing this OOC opinion of their character on? At best you could have said "Wow, this player is playing a real moron and newbie. If that's their role, well done!" Instead, you assumed they were a newbie who was painful to speak to.

Third, I just read help pray and help pray extra. I see it mention OOC prayers for bug reporting and questions...that's it. I don't think the pray channel was meant to be the 'Private bitch that so and so annoys me' channel.

Lastly, and this is me speaking as a former Fortress leader. The code of conduct for Squires specifically mentions that you must have respect for all elder members of the Fortress. So, if we assume your pray really could be considered IC, then you're lucky you ever got into the Fortress at all by my count.

What was happening was 'fair' despite you thinking it's not. You f'ed up in a moderate sized way (not multicharing way or something serious to get you denied) and you were paying the price for it in terms of much slower development/promotions. You f'ed up. It's not Yean's fault, or the title's fault or some other paladin's fault. It's yours. But all you talk about here is how great you are at killing people and how well you stuck to your role in messing with neutrals ranking.

Own the fact you screwed up this character, but it was salvagable with some very hard work and time. Don't blame anyone else for your mistakes or shortcomings. Life (and this game) gets so much easier after that.

Good luck with your next.

Grudan (Balten)

Firstly, lets say that no its not free will that makes people do interviews for Squires, it kind of a duty that comes along with being in a cabal, no one really likes doing it but its kind of required, so wrong on the first point right off. Also, yes they spent an hour of their time, and mine I will add, trying to convince me of some rather ridiculous Fortress dogma, and I will give one example here just so you might understand where my head was at, that I could not say that I 'slay' evil, but must use the term 'cleanse' if I wished to be a Squire. Ridiculous, right? And at the time the prayer was sent, I had not yet gotten the recommendation, and it was looking like I was not going to get it because I refused to agree with some of their more flagrant newbieness about Fortress. I have already admitted that sending the prayer was not the smartest thing to do, so there truly is no need to argue that point.

Secondly, the prayer was obviously OOC, since well IC Aesur wouldnt know what the hell a NEWBIE!!! is, right? So that point also is kind of moot, and just leads me to believe that your one of the many I am sure who will jump on the bandwagon and flame me for everything I said, just to not have to admit that at times, the Imms do
things that just arnt right, no matter how you look at it.

Thirdly, and I kind of already covered this point in Firstly, but I will again, what the hell. I KNOW that I wasnt supposed to send up the pray, I dont need you quoting helpfiles at me, or talking about how many years it took you to learn this or that, since I have been here at least as many years, if not more. My point is that my one lapse of judgement, my one OOC pray in a moment of frustration, does not warrant the punishment I was receiving, and is not the normal punishment for such things. I know for a fact that I am not the only one who has done this, and I know for a fact that some people do it ALOT, having read many Immortal comments in the PBF's. Do all who do this have their charachters punished in such a manner, I hardly think so, and that is the whole gripe like it or not.

And Lastly, from an IC view point Aesur had no idea what the Code of Conduct for a Squire was, as he well, wasnt a Squire, and had never been into the Hall of Light to read the texts. And I did stick to my role, as both Yean follower and Squire, quite well if you ask me, and yes I bring to light the fact that I was the deadliest Squire in the Fortress at the moment, which doesnt mean I was uber deadly, but I figure around 15 or 20 pks, somewhere in that range which isnt bad for a pally, and that I was attacking neutrals (who were slaying lighthearted mobs), which if you were such an uber Fortress leader you would know is kind of a duty of the Maran, protecting the innocent and all that right.

But all I really need to do is look at the five posts on your deletion thread, to see exactly how influential a leader you were, now STFU and mind your own busines, kiss ass later.

>but I figure around 15 or
>20 pks, somewhere in that range which isnt bad for a pally,

You might want to try a lower number.

And you know? You didn't do bad.

No small number of people have done a lot better with a squire paladin, most with less gear hand-me-down action than you got.

No small number of people have done a lot worse with a squire paladin, some with more gear hand-me-down action than you got.

Basically, you're okay. And that's fine, except you expect to be rewarded as though you were actually good and get pissed when you're not.

Yes, those three pieces of gear from Dupmasione should have just made me uber-deadly, cause we all know that paladins arnt the easiest class on the MUD to flee from. What the #### ever dude.

If you want to actually read all of it before posting a reply, go nuts. If you don't, go nuts with that too.

See, this is the problem you and I have Daev, I really love this game, I play it almost excessively, but lets admit that its just not a perfect system, its not, no matter how much you wish it were, it just isnt. You always seem to think that I expect something that I do not deserve, and I always seem to think that I get alot less than I do deserve. Look at this objectively, would you have continued to play a paladin, with my hours, my kills, my role, who had been told by an Immortal that he was pretty much screwed because of an OOC pray at the beginning of his life. You say that lots of paladin Squires have done better, and some may have, I would argue that its not as big a number as you try to portray, as most paladins just arnt deadly charachters, with some exceptions of course. And I know that I wanst 'rocking' the PK per se, but for a paladin with no virtues I was doing fairly well, in my opinion and others opinions, maybe not yours but there are other opinions. Its expecting too much, after 100 hours of RP, PK, raid, re-raid, defend, write some more role, RP some more, to be treated fairly? To be given what seems to just get handed out to everyone else (insert storm pallie here), because I had truly planned to go for a deathful paladin with this charachter, and by Yean punishing me for that prayer, withholding a single Virtue, she was affecting me negatively over something as trival as a six word pray 100 hours ago, while handing out rewards to those who were doing nothing to earn them. That just seems highly, highly unfair to me, and I am sure to alot of others though they may not admit it for fear of it adversely affecting their charachters with the Imms.

I'll say it again:

Your pray is not the cause of your problems. It's just a symptom.

The treatment that people get is based on a lot of things. Do I think it's unfair that someone with the kind of attitude you took in the game doesn't get the rewards that someone who doesn't take that attitude but otherwise was an equivalent character gets? I don't, but you seem to, and that I think is where we'll just have to agree to disagree.

There's a wide spectrum of behavior towards the staff between the extremes of "kisses ass" and "is really unpleasant and generally a character I'd want to avoid if possible." Lots of people live in that middle ground and don't have the problems that you do.

I really enjoy the part where you argue both that you know more about Fortress dogma then other people, but obviously IC you shouldn't know Fortress dogma because you're not yet a Squire so shouldn't be held accountable to it.

If you're going to argue with all comers, at least try to be intelligent about it. Most of these people really are trying to help you but all you see is more people to blame and attack. That's kinda sad.

Good luck with whatever is next, man. I mean that.

This is meant to be constructive and help you get what you want out of a character in the future. You can take it as a knock on you if you want, but that's not the intention.

Rather than view your surly pray as the cause of your problems, you need to view it as an incident that succinctly illustrates everything you're doing wrong.

(Side note: not the first time you've made a pray like that while interviewing for Fort with a character, is it? And if you want to be sure that obnoxious prays won't be used against you, probably you shouldn't pray obnoxiously.)

Your problem, essentially, is that you think you're a lot better than everyone else thinks you are. You think your mastery of Fort dogma is awesome and should cause you to sail through an interview; the people interviewing you obviously don't feel that way. You think you're a PK badass; other people (and numbers) don't seem to feel that way. You think you were rocking the Yean religion and deserved more love; without asking her or putting words in her mouth, it doesn't seem like Yean felt that way.

It doesn't actually matter whether, in any objective sense, you're right or they're right; what matters is it really puts people off when you cop an attitude that would be a little obnoxious even from the best players, and you're more in the 'sort of okay' range.

Basically you either need to get a lot better at the game, or you need to learn or convincingly feign some kind of humility.

Once again Daev, what the #### ever man, its your world, you can live in the delusion you create, I refuse to. I know Fortress dogma, you cant take that away, the person interviewing me was talking utter nonsense which has no grounding at all in Fortress. So screw you and your superior attitude. I never said I wa sa PK badass, but I have more kills than any other Squire in the Fortress at this time, which is exactly what I said, and also true, so screw you once again you narcissistic ####. I dont think I was rocking the religion, in fact I even asked for some OOC help on understanding the religion, what I do think is that alot of people who arnt 'rocking' their religion dont get #### on by their Imms, I did, so once again screw you. As for getting alot better at the game, I dont play this game to impress you, or to hit the high numbers, I tend to play classes that just arnt that deadly, but if I wished to do such, I assure you I am more than capable of playing the power gamey, best race/class, be a female for the uber pimp female only gear game, I just choose not to that, but it seems thats the only way to impress you. Not from someone who is actually trying to roleplay a Squire, and a paladin, who wrote the role, does the prayer, tries to talk to the neutrals about why they shouldnt be doing what they are doing. And why on gods green earth would I humble myself for YOU, that just ####ing laughable.

You keep on doing it your way and you tell me how that works out for you.

It's no skin off my back if you can't make a character that gets the respect of other players etc. that you think you deserve.

You see, its not the other players, its the Imms and thats the whole problem. Dupmasiones' final words to me before I deleted were, "You are my most valuable Squire, its been a pleasure knowing you." Thats the respect that I was working for and I got it. The only negative responses I see on this thread are from Beront, who hardly counts as an opinion, and the Imms, who of course can do no wrong, so if I was getting #### on, of course I deserved it, I had to deserve it, or else they wouldnt do it, right? Well, lets add the bard Fort leader, ohhh what his name, wait, thats right I cant remember his name. But if anyone had bothered to pay attention, I got plenty of respect from the Fortress members, that was never an issue, I got plenty of respect from my foes, except Sharzula who just constantly went OOC complaining about my gear, I just got nothing from the Imms, once again. Now you can justify this in your own head however you wish, I truly dont care, my original post was in the hopes of trying to be constructive and make you see that its an unfair and lopsided system, were the Imms can pick and choose their favorites, and either make the charachter viable, or pretty much cripple it. But of course that isnt going to happen, because you really dont give a #### what we as the players of this MUD feel about it, its here to be exactly like you want it, and thats why you now enjoy numbers in the mid thirties at their peak, and this will continue to decline as people such as myself grow tired of dealing with the #### that coems from you and some of your Imm staff.

I'm not arguing with this whole wall of text; I'm just going to point out one thing.

You can see:
What people say to you, or in front of you.

I can see:
What everyone says.

Which of us is likely to have a better picture of how respected/feared/whatever you were among your peers?

I don't make the news, I just report it. Don't blame the messenger.

Who spent 100 hours in the last two weeks logged in, you or me, I believe that would most definitely be me. And what people say, and their actions are often two different things, of course my enemies didnt stand around and 'say' Aesur is awake, I better go find someplace to hide. But I know, from their actions, that most of the time when I was logged on, they could be found sitting in Udgaard, and even sent some Villagers into Udgaard to kill them, more than once actually. So you can claim all this superiour knowledge, but you should realize by now exactly how little your own opinion means to me.

As for my peers, I could care less if they respected me, as I said in two weeks Aesur was the deadliest Squire in the Fortress, do I truly care what the people who log in for three hours a week to die six times to some lowbie necromancer think about me. I reiterate here Dupmasiones' last words to me a second before I deleted, and thats as clear as the picture will get "You were my most valuable Squire, it was a pleasure to know you." End of story.

I really liked what I saw of this character.

Your ego did occassionally slip through, but I think that was more of a matter of endless frustration than you being a egotistical type.

And as a FYI, next time you deal with a so called Fortress twerp. Just walk away from the interview, or try and change their mind if they are open to it! Its not like there aren't a bajillion of them, nor are all of them so close minded.

Did I finally find someone who isnt neck deep in the Imms ass, I am shocked, but thanks for the kind words regardless. I really tried with this guy, yet somehow its going to turn into me not deserving more than I got, which is Daevryns #### response any time someone has a complaint about the Imm's.

He wants to say that I think I rock at PK, where have I ever said that?

He wants to say that I think I was rocking the Yean religion, where have I ever said that?

What I did say is that I see alot of players, do far less, and get alot more, which no matter how you look at it, its true. I wont bring the storm pallies name into it, since he may still be around, but I knwo for a fact he got bitch ranked from teens to mid forties in a couple days, since I was around pretty much the whole time, I do know that he had a Virtue, Temperance at that, arguably the best possible Virtue for a paladin. I do know he was following the same religion I was, and I find it nearly impossible that he did any more in PK, and I would say arguably alot less than I did, I know if you gain thirty plus ranks in two days with a storm pallie, you dont have time for a whole lot of RP, so what did he do that he was deserving of a Virtue, and I am not. And its all irrelevant really, as Yean told me that the OOC pray was the reason it was going to me 'awhile' to impress her, like 116 hours isnt 'awhile' to be playing a stupid ####ing MUD.

e

I'm pretty much hope that one day I will be reason for him to grow or leave cf.

.... Was a very bad idea... But sure it can happen, but if I had done that (I never have sent up an ooc pray about something like that, only possible bugs and what not.) I would have expected it to hit me in the head later on when it comes to my char.

(I have experienced something similar however about a suspected cheating incident, that wasn't cheating, which was agreed on, but shouldn't be repeated, and while I didn't get a nasty title, I didn't get any imm-xp ever again with that char. Which wasn't odd since I knew what I did back then was semi-shady. Thus either delete or live with my mistake.)

I liked both of your chars as I've interacted with both, but you I don't think you should be surprised that the OOC pray affects you IC. (But I do think that the title was a bit much perhaps, not that I've seen the exact wordings of the prayer, but still.)

Anyways, I hope you come back, and ROLEPLAY again. I've enjoyed our interactions.

... I wasn't much of a match for you, YET. But I was working on that. heh

Anyways, REALLY nice kill on me in Galadon that day. Can't believe you escaped being wanted for it. Good work.

GLWYN

We did have some good fights you and I, and I think you might stand a chance at actually making a successful AP, something I have never been able to do. One word of advice though, lose the Armageddon sword when fighting pallies, I could have made myself immune to it at any point in those last fights at the Palace, I just didnt have the heart since I was already pounding you pretty hard, in the Throne Room.

... Wasn't sure at what level, so thought I'd give it a try. Since you weren't immune, I kept using it. heh Now I know though. hahahaha

I liked our few interactions. You seemed like a solid character. Thanks for the jagged sword. Hope this wasn't gear related as we could have fixed that up pretty quick. GLWYN

Hope you appreciated the effort at least.

I did appreciate the effort Grobbak, and I figured it was you even since you and Yean are about the only two I normally see about at that time of the morning. I didnt really understand your saying about being a Champion of the Light, as in my eyes what I was doing pretty much was being a Champion of the Light, owning nearly everyone I fought (besides Sharzula, damn you transmuter), protecting the innocent at every opportunity, even from those who I would not normally strike. I mean, you take a Paladin into a group of three neutrals, which negates your protection from evil, with only sanctuary, and beat them good enough to make them leave the Battlefields, or the loch, without actually slaying a single one, I did this quite often. I did kill a few neutrals, but these were the ones who just blatantly refused to stop killing the Light hearted innocents that I was sworn to protect,or were protecting some dark heart in their group, all perfectly fine RP for an elven pallie in my eyes.

Lose all your shinies?