Sun Jan 18 13:22:12 2009

At 3 o'clock PM, Day of the Bull, 1st of the Month of the Old Forces
on the Theran calendar Gralbin perished, never to return.

Race:	storm
Class:	warrior
Level:	51
Alignment:	Good
Ethos:	Chaotic
Cabal:	FORTRESS, the Fortress of Light
Age:	224
Hours:	153

I didn't get to interact with your character at all except for an interview.

A) You plain told me that one of my recs didn't count

and

B) You told me only the Captain can bring Squires in, but you provided a recommendation for you.

Bad form, in my opinion. Not something I've seen of Fortress leaders in the past.

1. You had the recommendation of a squire who was going to get booted for "unsquirelike" behavior. I'm not going to count that as a good recommendation. Instead. I took the time to interview you and put my own word behind you as backing. Bad form? How about the next best recommendation aside from Baer? No offense, but Enrai and I had both agreed aboud inductions based on what Baer said to us...which apparently we got crossed, and my saying you were worthy trumps that negative recommendation that wouldn't have counted.

2. How ungrateful can you be?

3. I'll stop here because I might say something I'll regret.

If you were just another Maran, what you did was fine. But, if you're a leader, act like one.

There was nothing stopping you from either inducting or delegating someone else to interview me. Pardon me if I'm an ingrate after 20-30 hours of waiting for an induct.

Yes, been a leader before. I KNOW it's frustrating having to constantly listen to people ask for interviews. Sack up, man. It's part of being a leader, which you obviously couldn't handle in the first place (evidenced by your lack of interest in actually playing the character).

All that aside, my only interaction with you at all was the interview, which, in my opinion, put a poor taste in my mouth. You didn't give off any "leadery" vibe and saying "Well, my recommendation is the best recommendation you could ever hope for" doesn't hold water because you shouldn't have been doing it in the first place.

My advice would be to play one character at a time next time. Take that as you will. You did something right to become leader, but you ended up just disappointing everyone with your leadership because you couldn't keep your focus on Gralbin. I'll be ungrateful for that, dude.

20-30 hours isn't a huge deal... in fact, you can even look at it in a way to count yourself lucky as long as you are "actively" seeking the induction. Especially with Fortress, it's not as if you initial induction makes or breaks a character... you get protection from evil... not the hardest prep to gather for anyhow. Send your scroll, be active, and continue to thwart evil and level.

I'm currently sitting on 40+ hours waiting for an induction into a cabal... if I have to speak with every current member of the cabal for recommendations I will, and I won't pitch a fit in the least. Does it suck? You bet. In the end its a damn game though...

If you're sitting on even 10-15 hours of induction time, why the hell not just go and pray for Baerinika? If what you claim is true, she's already gonna be aware of your plight.

EXB

PS. I don't condone playing two high profile characters in the least, let alone non high profile if it's causing others to suffer.

If there are no leaders I will do mortal inductions. Obviously, I will want to see a note to the Fort and you should have two recs from Fort members before you come to me, but if the cabal is suffering I'll usually make it easy on you.

You're missing what my complaint about Gralbin was.

If you're active and the leadership is active, 20-30 hours for induction really doesn't cut it especially when full cabal powers come 30-100 hours after that. Baerinika runs a good, tight ship in Fort and promotes those she sees fit, but not until they actually join the Fort.

From my perspective, the leadership (namely Gralbin) was shirking duty. I think Enrai's and my time just didn't mesh. Also, consider the fact that not everyone can put in that kind of time easily. In Enrai's case, he went from induction to Maran in 50 hours, but put that time in over a couple of weeks. Awesome for him. For me, it could take me 1-2 months just to get that kind of time in, playing one character only. Caballing is not for everyone, and there are checks and balances to filter some people out, but when I'm begging every single time I see a Fort member to be interviewed and getting turned away, that #### is seriously frustrating and takes away from the enjoyment of the character. I'd rather spend the hour I get to play CF going balls to the wall, fighting, pk'ing, and dying, and the most fun way for me is to do that in a cabal where I can easily communicate with allies and raid/retrieve easier.

I don't feel my complaint about Gralbin was invalid in the slightest.

I will say that my recent Fortress I actually turned down an elf healer because I was in the middle of fighting back and forth and I was already pressed for time. I had been on for several hours anyway.

This elf healer though was rude, perhaps role play since I was a dwarf, who knows, but it seemed focused uncharacteristically upon fortress as a whole so it came across very ooc rude. Basically, I turned him away and told him that perhaps Fortress wasn't for him (in so many words of course). I think he did go another route or perhaps deleted, but in either case somebody that easily turned I wouldn't have wanted to join or consume my time to interview since I typically would invest an hour or more into an interview (assuming i wasn't pulling teeth)

I don't think you're correct in your assumption however. Path from maran does not begin at induction but rather from day one... now whether by pk records, roles or present RP the gods (Baerinika) will catch that stuff**.

EXB

Of course, I didn't make maran with Oraimus, but yeah.. and then the dwarf after well... again I felt as if I failed so he should be auto'ing any day now and I can post more on that subject.

I had a lot of fun with Gralbin and I tried to contribute something to the fortress. I'm much more of a fighter than other things and Maran has its upsides sometimes, but far more downsides for my style of play. I like to be out and mixing it up more and with the Fortress you just can't do that as much. Before people go and cry BS, just think about if you are really playing a Maran or Acolyte the way it should then you only really go after the Dark folks, or them and their groupmates until the dark guy is gone. Once he is gone my philosophy was to speak to them and try and turn them from their ways. The one time we did that with ragers they left Kiadana for calandaryl and Gralbin was happy.

A few goodbyes:

Baer - Thanks for the opportunity at Maran and at marshall. We didn't interact much but our couple of talks were nice. I did feel kind of odd when you came and asked me to step down as I thought I was still playing Gralbin a fair enough amount to be effective. Maybe that another downside to the lower playerbase. Anyway, I'm not sure why the situation bugs me so much, but it definitely does and I would by lying if I said it didn't.

Iunna - Thanks for all the fun talks and the tattoo. I'm sorry I'm such an idiot and can't keep happy with most chars for very long. It was nice to see that I could make a lich silent though, and I wish I had kept Gralbin going for that purpose alone. You are a very cool imm and I just wanted to thank you for that.

Enrai - Sorry that you didn't like Shaman in the hero range. I have always had a special place for Shaman as I know they can be tough, but you have to really like the class. I don't knwo when I'll make one again, but I might someday.

Marztia - I put you here because we traveled a lot together and you taught me some cool things I didn't know. Thanks for the trips through Trothon. I wish you had keep around more and I hope you find a spark to play again.

Padwei - You are great and I think you are an excellent Acolyte.

Unal - Man, you have the best RP, aside from Zizzle, going in the game right now. Some people don't like Ziz's RP, but I really do and it is cool to see it from both sides. Gralbin of course didn't like him and spit on him the one time Zizzle won out, but even that he RP'ed. Anyway, I'm happy that you got Cardinal and I hope you keep going for awhile as the Fortress needs your presence.

Sertius - Didn't see you much but I liked you.

Haidoril - Thanks for coming and being a part of my RP session with Iunna...that was very fun. I hope you keep the flame burning brightly for a long time.

Younger Forties - Have fun out there and don't be too gangy. I know it is going to happen sometimes, but strike out on your own as well and make a name for yourself. I'm not saying Gralbin was the pillar of an example on this, but I don't think I did too bad with it either.

Enemies -
Alz - Well you are gone and man did I enjoy some of our fights. You and zizzle were a powerful combo, but I loved it when I got you back with...I can't remember now, but it was a good fight.

Ziz - Neat RP and deadly at times.

Pzur - I'm sure your RP is good, just never saw it. I would say you are far more deadly than Zizzle as you always prepare and sometimes he gets overconfident in his meatshield.

Khratetch - That one fight in Mortorn should could ahve gone either way. I was surprised I won.

Satebos - Argh, I hated fighting you. Well, not that so much as teleporting and you always finding me...usually right before blind would be gone. Stupid pendant never did work enough.

Ahtieli - Also a hard fight, the only time we ever got you close was with what...five of us at hte inners and Ilix taking the hits.

Others - Post if you want to and I'll respond. I know that I've forgotten a lot of other people and well, I just got back from celebrating my fifth anniversary with the wife, so things are a little jumbled.

I'll be making something soon, but I've only got a few months until my first child, a boy, is born. I'm not sure what kind of time I'll have then, but he will obviously take precedence.

Later,

Minyar

In general, if we see someone who we made leader spending vastly more time as a different mortal, we watch for a bit and then if it continues, we pull the trigger. Khasotholas did it with Vezrith (who Hunsobo had promoted to WM) when he was playing an alternate character WAY more than Vezrith. Since around that time, we've tried to watch for it and act on it when we see it.

Just so you understand it wasn't just Baerinika, and it isn't just you.

"Vasty more time" is a poor way to judge these things. Someone could be spending 20 hours a week as another mort and 10 hours a week as a leader. That 10 hours is still more than enough to get leader stuff done.

It's something we make a judgement call on as we see the need to try to keep the game fun for everyone.

Out of curiousity, if you were playing a character who needed me for empowerment (or whatever), and I was spending most of my CF time playing a character that was killing you, but still 10 hours a week (but maybe not 10 hours in which you also play) playing my immortal, would you feel okay with that?

I have to think, if not you, most of the players would say no.

We all know that Imms play morts and guess what, they also play their Imm char. So, likely, we have gotten slaughtered by the same imm we follow at times. Perhaps use Hunsobo as an example and the nexus as his slayed people.

I think your statement is crazy Nep...just so you know.

If you feel like it, take another read at what I wrote.

And honestly, I don't see how it's applicable.

You said you take these things in a case by case basis. In this particular case, Gralbin didn't do inductions.

So which characters were being let down?

Gralbin/Gryssil would have some inside information about both cabals. i.e. Whomever he was fighting, he would be able to learn stuff like where they currently went to rest, or anything else that was either shared with him as an ally, or mentioned on the cabal channel.

Now you are basically saying I'm a cheater because I had a character in enemy cabals. Come off your high horse. My only point about the whole thing was that it left a bitter taste in my mouth, and guess what, I'm able to have that opinion. Kinda like, Baer probably had abitter taste in hers when she found out I was playing both and wanted me to just play Gralbin if I was going to be Marshall. I willingly said "no" but that doesn't mean I like the "not so new policy." I'm pretty sure some of the imms have probably had more than one char ina cabal at a time. I'm pretty sure i remember reading where Twist said he had more than one leader at a time, but maybe that was a different imm. Anyway, I'd prefer you didn't post to any of my threads unless you have something to say, because you just really annoy me most of the time.

That said, I don't think I have ever played multiple leader morts, but way back when, I did play more than one mortal, in multiple cabals, and even had Taceolus, Gurgthock, and probably some rager/knight/master char at the same time.

One reason I don't do that anymore is because I don't want to be a hypocrite when I dislike it when others do it.

But to get back on track, since this is your char's thread, not a history lesson in Twist's mortals, let me just say that I never once saw you doing anything shady or even questionable in the slightest. With either (any, really) of your chars. I'm just not a big fan of having mortals in opposing cabals (but it happens a lot) and I'm even less a fan of one of those being a mortal leader.

That said, I didn't make this call, I just pointed out to Baerinika where her Marshall was spending his time (when I pointed it out, you hadn't logged Gralbin in a few days, but Gryssil had been going steady day in, day out.

Meh. To me, being a mortal leader is more than doing inductions. It's being a steady presence and leading the cabal. I'm not saying you didn't do that, but I honestly think you did a better job of "leading" your cabal as Gryssil than as Gralbin toward the end.

I'm curious, what would you have done if you had gotten War Master and hadn't been asked to step down as Marshall?

I also am a big fan of one good character at a time, but sometimes that is really rough. I did it with Draktel, Zridv and Lerzion, but maybe that is just it. The goodie side is hard to keep my interest and sometimes It is just a chore. The good thing about being dark is that you can indiscriminiately kill whoever you want for the most part.

I'm not saying Baer didn't make the right call, I'm just saying it left a bad taste.

I honestly tried to always log in one or the other and try to keep a somewhat equal time between the two. Granted, Gryssil was getting more for awhile there and I tried to log Gralbin every other day or what not. The weekend I think you are talking about in particular might have been the weekend where I was sick as a dog and I hardly logged any time, and not knowing if I could make it I played Gryssil because I could log him in and out with less issue than Gralbin. Of course, i could be wrong.

If I had been both characters and nothing was said I would have probably tried to play equally and at the off-peaks for when I can play. Anyway, its fine, it played out how it played out and now both are gone and something hopefully more fun is on the way.

I'm almost always a fan of your chars.

Well, first, hopefully I wouldn't know about it because you wouldn't have told anyone.

But second, if your leader char fulfilled his leadership role, sure, why would I care if you had another character I had no idea you played?

It's still not fair to somebody else who has dedicated their time to one character and is also suitable to be a leader. If you're the only leader-quality character around, fine. But I don't think it's fair that you can have a leader character and actually spend time on another character when other people have dedicated themselves to playing one. I just think if you're a leader (thus the leader of the cabal for the ENTIRE MUD), then you should play that character primarily because it has a bigger effect on CF as a whole. Putting your leader to the side once you become leader to play another character is just wack.

nt

I kind of assumed that if the IMMs didn't want people playing multiple characters and putting more hours into the nonleader one that they wouldn't leader you in the first place. I guess not. My bad.

Baer did say that she made me Marshall and then Twist brought it to her attention. I can understand why, but at the same time, like I said, I had no significantly changed Gralbin/Gryssil times that much. I still played both about hte same. I created Gryssil awhile before the Marshalling. Oh well, what is done is done, I just wanted to make it claer that I didn't all of a sudden stop playing Gralbin for some other char...like some leaders do.

The ability for bias among other things to creep into your decision making is something I as a player don't think brings anything to the game.

I don't understand why people can't just stick to one character. It makes things so much less complicated.

I interacted with both characters, and thought both were memorable, but had you got Emperor somehow I think I would notice that the Emperor and the leader of the Fort are never on at the same time.

Fort had two leaders. Myself (Enrai) and Gralbin.

We had an agreement wherein I did all the inductions, and he focused on more of the leading/mentoring/training of the people already in the Fort. So there were exactly ZERO applicants who suffered because of this. Hell, there would be ZERO applicants to suffer if Gralbin went completely MIA (which he didn't).

But to get at the real issue, if this dude WASN'T playing another char, and still only played Gralbin for as much as he did, would it have been a problem? I really don't think so.

The only problem would be if Gralbin/Gryssil chose which character to play based on the climate of the mud (playing Empire during their peak/Fort during Fort o'clock). If that's the case, I can see the argument. But I don't think any of the playerbase can accurately gauge that.

Honestly, when I gave Gralbin and you the talk about what I expected from the Captain and Marshall I was trying to work out what it says in the Hall of Light:

Captain of the Brigade - It is your duty, noble captain, to see that
the squires are trained in the arts of war. Teach them of the weak
points of our foe. See that they learn from your experiences in this
battle.

Marshall of the Fortress - It is your duty, honored marshall, to see
that the scribes and squires learn the art to defending the Fortress,
and themselves. Our enemies are not fools, and often clever and crafty.
See that the Fortress is prepared.


I never, ever said don't induct. What use is a cabal leader who doesn't induct?? Drillmaster, I understand if they shouldn't induct. But I expect any Fort leader to induct. It's part of the price for the benefits you get being cabal leader, in my opinion.

I would have clarified but from my perspective it seemed that Gralbin was playing a lot more Gryssil and I didn't think he'd be leader very long, so I let it go.

Well...I totally thought Marshall was more like the Drillmaster in that he was to make sure folks were toeing the line and helping them learn to defend themselves and the fort. I guess I got that screwed up, and I should have inducted some. There were a few who I would have inducted had I been thinking along the same lines as what you are saying you want.

Oh well...its water under the bridge now, and I guess if I ever return to maran I'll know better should I be lucky enough to be a leader who takes the time to lead.

You said you wanted Gralbin to be an "enforcer" (pretty sure those are your words). And you wanted me to be a "beacon and a leader".

Then after talking to Gralbin and he suggested that I'd be doing inductions and things of that nature, while he'd be focused on dealing with current Squires/Maran it seemed to fit. It looked from my perspective that you were wanting roughly a Commander/Drillmaster style thing.

Personally, I enjoy doing interviews and that sort of thing, so I didn't have too much of a problem with it most of the time.

But yeah, I guess we both missed the boat on what you meant. Sorry.

NT

No worries, dude! I thought that might've pissed you off a little because I clearly had no idea what I was talking about either :P

Sorry I was a bit of a screw up attack/defense wise sometimes! It's my first character in a while and I was never that good in the first place. See you again! As an enemy by the sounds of it.

I think our wires ended up sort of crossing. I had noticed Gralbin's times were down, and was rethinking my original plan to ask him to be Marshall when you came to see me in my shrine. You seemed to be hinting pretty strongly that you wanted a leadership title so I thought that maybe you were going to be committed to it. Unfortunately, as I said, I found out too late that you were playing Gryssil. Still, I thought I'd give you a week or so and see if you moved to playing Gralbin as your main. In my view (and no, I can't be on 24 hours a day) you seemed to be playing Gryssil more than Gralbin. I could probably figure it out if that was true or not, but either way it was my feeling. Also, as you said with bitter tastes, it would really turn me off when I would see you raiding Fortress or bashing down or ganging down Forties.

At the end of the day, plenty of people disagree with the way I run my cabals, but even so they are mine to run and I genuinely do try and make the best decisions for them. I hope you can understand that.

Good luck on your next.

nt

Sorry we didn't get to interact much after the tattoo.
Good luck with whatever's next.