Sat Oct 20 17:22:21 2007

At 8 o'clock PM, Day of Freedom, 4th of the Month of Winter
on the Theran calendar Derasori perished, never to return.

Race:	felar
Class:	ranger
Level:	51
Alignment:	Evil
Ethos:	Chaotic
Cabal:	None, None
Age:	73
Hours:	415

What a ride!*

I created Derasori to check out the new rangers (I love rangers) and picked plainsrunner/savage because I hadn't see one by that time. Many stuff I got I still don't understand well (smear mud, brutal rush, warpaint) and I could not test bramble pit and plainsrunning the way I wanted, but a felar with pursuit was awesome. It would work 17 of 20 times, and that's why I spend most of my time near the Fortress (thanks to whomever titled me "Dweller Of Redhorn").
In the beggining I killed many Marans with it and savageblow (people used to spam flee and find themselves in the pit) but soon they learned the trick and it became more interesting. I loved to fight Marans, but it's a shame a few of them would not fight alone, but again, that just made things more interesting.
All in all, I liked the combination, plus staunch really rocks!

Imms: What can I say, you are the guys that keep this game up and rocking. I had zero interaction with you, but I had no role and wasn't expecting any. I just gotta a bit angry when someone titled me "Slave Of Civilization" for herbing Kharg when he was raiding the Outlanders. Come on, I'm a chaotic evil ranger. I'm not supposed to bow my head to them! But again, in the end I almost enjoyed the situations it created :)

All others, it's being a long journey and I won't recall half of you.
Post and I will reply.

Logs will be soon in the log board. Some I already posted on Dio.

Thanks to everyone that keep this game so enjoyable.



* Unfortunally this ride was interrupted duo to a problem with password. I don't know who would like to hack my char, but I'm almost certain someone did it (and no, I didn' changed it while drunk) because it happened with two chars of mine at the same time. The other will auto-delete soon.

** Sorry for the grammar mistakes.

Well, chaotic evil rangers giving herbs to the Emperor and raiding Outlanders is not really a chaotic evil ranger's way of acting. Chaotic evil doesn't necessarily mean just do whatever you want because you can. You had also raided Outlander and aided Empire more than once. So, I gave you that title. But, to show you that I am fair, I also changed it to Lone Hunter once your kills and actions became less "Civilized". Good character overall.

What does Chaotic evil mean then?

You are chaotic and evil. Not helping order advance.

Or even anti-order. Presumably chaotic/orderly are personal characteristics and have nothing to do with which "side" you take in any given situation. Isn't that part of why "lawful" was changed to "orderly" in the first place?

A chaotic evil ranger might help the Emperor if it suits him at any given time. Now if he were habitually helping the emperor, that might be a pretty orderly thing to do. But it sounds like we're dealing with "once" as opposed to "all the time."

Yeah I agree. I pretty much played exclusively chaotic evil characters. I never had any qualms about helping empire or even tribunal--sometimes even when they didn't want me to--if it benefitted me. Of course, I never had any problems stabbing them in the back once they stopped being useful either...

I don't know the circumstances behind Lyris' motivations on the title. Just my $.02.

Sure, self-serving instances happen. That's clearly acceptable. Doing the same thing over and over is acting orderly and it multiplies when you are aiding order by acting orderly. That's what happened here. Once he had started doing things the way a chaotic evil would do them, then he had the title replaced to the Lone Hunter.

Overall, this was a very good character. The first title was just to make him think about turning into a pet to empire which is how he was acting early in his life. He definitely made a turn around over time.

The problem is that I had no role at all.
To me, I wasn't "helping the Emperor", but fightning the Fortress. I was assisting anyone who would attack the maran. My point of view is that I was using them to weak the Fortress.
When I said I got a bit angry about the title, it's because, if my memory is correct, that day I was with the Empire raiding every cabal. When we went to the tree, I said I would not attack the huntress, and I didn't. I had some friends in the tree and wouldn't want war with them. But then I gave herbs to Kharg and suddenly two of three lowbie rangers that was there got angry with me and boom, I got the title.
Like I said, I didn't cared about it IC and never complainned about it. It was just my fault for not having a role. Lyristeon could never guess what I was thinking.
I would agree about the "Dweller Of Redhorn", I was being too much one-dimensional and predictable like Aodh said.
About the "The BANE of all that is good and ORGANIZED", isn't the Outlanders and ORGANIZED group? :)

That wasn't the only time though. Nor was it the first or last time that you assisted empire against Outlander. The point was that you were assisting an orderly cabal as a chaotic. More often than you should have been. As far as killing Fortress folk and you getting titled for that, I had nothing to do with that. I just did the Slave of Civilization and Lone Hunter.

It's interesting that you say doing the same thing over and over is acting orderly, because when I raised this before, I think you said the opposite, if the goal was a chaotic one. The context was that I knew a certain hero druid would always come after Victoria when they had 9 levels on Victoria (and before Victoria even had fire control), as soon as they logged on, rather than the others in the plentiful range. And they'd always use the same tactics.

No, that wasn't the point at all. The point that I am trying to make here is very simple. If you are doing something to advance order against chaos. you aren't acting in a chaotic manner. Mind you, that doing it once in awhile to keeps things unbalanced is one thing, but, to make it a habit is not chaotic. Outlanders attack AP's. It doesn't matter what the tactics are. It is the outcome. That's the difference here. One thing is about aiding a cabal based on order, another is about killing a defiler in the eyes of an Outlander.

A CE isn't going to care about the outcome at all. The only outcome they're concerned with is 'Does this benefit me?' Just because that benefit is perpetuated and happens to benefit others (in this case Empire) doesn't mean they're no longer chaotic. I don't really like your perspective on a lot of things as it differs from typical precedence.

>A CE isn't going to care about the outcome at all. The only
>outcome they're concerned with is 'Does this benefit me?'
>Just because that benefit is perpetuated and happens to
>benefit others (in this case Empire) doesn't mean they're no
>longer chaotic. I don't really like your perspective on a lot
>of things as it differs from typical precedence.

Straight from the help files. Help 91 to be precise.

Neutral Evil: The primary concern for such people is their own advancement.
Working with others or on their own, their only interest is
getting ahead. Such people are known for their 'Me, Myself,
and I' personalities. No scruples, no conscience.

Chaotic Evil: The bane of all that is good and organized. Laws and
governments are the tools of weaklings unable to fend for
themselves. The strong have a right to what they want, and
weak are there to be exploited. Leadership among CEs is based
on power, with the leader capable of bullying his underlings
into obedience.

Which one do you describe in your own words? As for your not liking my perspective, that is your choice. But, then again, nobody claims you are right about much anyway.

This guy was in love with the Empire when I had to deal with, and apparently from Draktel through Hunsobo.

Seemed this char was rolled to take advantage of easy Fort pickings (like myself) and help out the poor, beleaugered Empire (hah). Not terribly impressive.

Tough enemy, but I'd say very one-dimensional.

I hope you aren't trying to suggest that during Draktel and Kharg's time the Fort was weak? Oh...and I'd say a chaotic evil ranger taking advantage of weak fortress members is completely "evil?" Hmm...something sounds right about that.

I guess the intelligent point I WISH I'd made was that the Empire shouldn't have a Green sect. Kind of a balance thing.

Fort was weak at times. It's not like the Fort ever has the number of skilled players equivalent of an Emperor and half a council, who will usually tend to be on at the same time due to the mechanics of promotion. Fort usually one or two semi-to-truly scary chars, and a lot of support/meatshields.

So, yes, taking advantage of weak fort members is evil. Being roleless, camping Fort, and working with most anyone who comes to kill Forties? Evil, yes. Cool? Meh.

Fort may not be weak in your eyes, but let's look at Draktel, Kharg, Hunsobo, assorted council members, and Derasori's Fort kills vs deaths (if Derasori's pbf comes out). Having numbers is nice, but I consider getting killed and failing to kill enemies weak.

Umm...my post specifically stated more than once. Do it to suit your needs, sure. Do it repeatedly is not chaotic at all.

As it seems to indicate some orderly dogma.

I've seen CE as specificly self serving, exactly as Enbro said below.

You've gone from making reasonable points to just trying to flame Lyristeon and his views on the game. He's the imm, he's the champ, you're the chump. Either accept the game for what it is or play a different one. Thanks.

That's why I like your posts, Pro. It just shows why people think what they do about you. By consistently aiding orderly folks, you become orderly in your actions yourself. If you want to oppose everything I post just to do it because you want to continuously prove yourself to be a dumbass, apologies to all the dumbasses out there for being compared to Pro, then that is your choice.

Let's break down your odd statment.


You said:
>>You are chaotic and evil. Not helping order advance. <<

Since when has this ever been a central theme for a CE? From our own beloved help files we have...

The bane of all that is good and organized. Laws and governments are the tools of weaklings unable to fend for themselves. The strong have a right to what they want, and weak are there to be exploited. Leadership among CEs is based on power, with the leader capable of bullying his underlings into obedience.

Your simplistic statment is more akin to Nihilism/Anarchy or our classic Entropist than anything Chaotic Evil. Either way, the manner in wich you described it seems to imply some higher purpose than he individual, which is what I was eluding to in my response.

Chaotic evil is plain and simple, Me, me me. Might makes right, what happens to you matters not at all, only that I benefit.

Once again, we have an example of you making some off the wall snap call sprinkled with insults and, apparently, lack of understanding of character motivations.

Sorry if my rant makes me look like an asshat, but I'm struggling to see you in a favorable light because of what I perceive to be no brain issues that you can't seem to grasp.

From your post. "The BANE of all that is good and ORGANIZED."

Maybe thats part of it.

You are the Anne Coulter of the CF community. Get a grip.

lolololol

Being Chaotic evil does not imply that one actively works against the status quo for personal gain. It can simply mean one exists only for their gain, external consequences be damned.

I understood Lyristeon to be saying that they worked toward some anarchistic goal, which to me implied, in part at least, some sort of "Orderly" mind Set.

I personally don't see how having a patern of behavior is indicative of an orderly Ethos. Does regearing from the same place in the same order make a CE character a NE or OE character?

Should the change the alignment of a CG Fortie Healer that always travels with an OG Trib Warrior and heals them?

I also disagree that CE = Leader. It is equally a follower if they lack the means to exert their influence. CE may equal Boss, never leader.

I have fugies to catch, gotta go.

n/t

>Being Chaotic evil does not imply that one actively works
>against the status quo for personal gain. It can simply mean
>one exists only for their gain, external consequences be
>damned.

You are confused. To help illustrate, I will show you the CF definition of NEUTRAL evil:

Neutral Evil: The primary concern for such people is their own advancement. Working with others or on their own, their only interest is getting ahead. Such people are known for their 'Me, Myself, and I' personalities. No scruples, no conscience.

You see, it's NEUTRAL evil that exists for only their own gain. You've been confusing NE and CE all this time.

>I understood Lyristeon to be saying that they worked toward
>some anarchistic goal, which to me implied, in part at least,
>some sort of "Orderly" mind Set.

You are confused. Having a goal doesn't make you orderly. Chaotic does not equal running around like a chicken with your head cut off. You can play it like that, but it's not realistic or interesting. I'll post this again:

Chaotic Evil: The bane of all that is good and organized. Laws and governments are the tools of weaklings unable to fend for themselves. The strong have a right to what they want, and weak are there to be exploited. Leadership among CEs is based on <b>power</b>, with the leader capable of bullying his underlings into obedience.

CE dislikes organized. They chafe at being restricted by society and laws and whatnot. CE's all want to be the biggest bad@$$ ever, and take what they want, and lay the smack down because everyone is smaller than them, because they CAN. They have major problems with authority, because authorities stop them from laying the smack down on everyone and everything: authorities want you to lay the smack down on whomever THEY want you to smack. A CE listens only if they have to, like an orc's relationship to the chieftain. The chief will squelch or kill them if they don't listen. If the orc thinks he's got the right stuff, he'll stick his axe in the back of the chief's head, and hey! presto! He's the chief now!

But, but, but, but Aodh! They have a chieftain! That means they're organized and orderly! No. They have a hierarchy of power, true, but them's the facts of life. An orc doesn't care about Tribunal laws, unless it's going to get him killed and his precious shinies taken. An orc doesn't care about what the chief says when the chief's not watching, unless it's an exceptionally craven skrugga. They don't *believe* in order, they don't *want* order, the vision of the world they're working toward is a big, bloody, smelly, chaotic mess. They shouldn't want to do things like help Empire, because they don't want to be Imperial slaves. They might do so out of convenience, but orcs should attack Imperials as well, as one of the main threats to orcish territory and supremacy. (I use orcs since they're a great CE stereotype. I guess you can try to make a CE character that doesn't have a problem with authority, but I think you might as well just make it NE.)

>I personally don't see how having a patern of behavior is
>indicative of an orderly Ethos. Does regearing from the same
>place in the same order make a CE character a NE or OE
>character?

That's a mechanical concern. Don't be silly. But, if a CE knows a place to punk someone/thing for a shiny, they're not going to pass up a chance to do so. Patterns don't matter as much as ideology and goals and worldview. Focus on these, Pro, and the rest will follow.

>Should the change the alignment of a CG Fortie Healer that
>always travels with an OG Trib Warrior and heals them?

No, their alignment shouldn't be changed. That is a GOOD thing to do. Their ethos? Meh. I'd assume they're an Acolyte. If the healer helps the trib smite evil, that's fine. If the trib is just hanging out, not challenging his evil cabalmates, allowing evils to be protected from the Maran in the cities, that's not so chaotic or *purely* good. But this is totally off-topic, isn't it?

Go look up Dyneli's pbf for a great example of Chaotic Evil. Any more questions?

>CE dislikes organized. They chafe at being restricted by
>society and laws and whatnot. CE's all want to be the biggest
>bad@$$ ever, and take what they want, and lay the smack down
>because everyone is smaller than them, because they CAN. They
>have major problems with authority, because authorities stop
>them from laying the smack down on everyone and everything:
>authorities want you to lay the smack down on whomever THEY
>want you to smack. A CE listens only if they have to...

That's one pretty good take on a chaotic evil. However, I could see a character-say a chaotic evil thief- who knows he'll never, be the biggest badass, and will work with orderlies tongue-in cheek, knowing that getting "in" with the orderlies will allow him to spread chaos much more later on down the line.

Personally, I enjoy CE roles which may play characters against each other, etc..which will almost always mean becoming aligned with orderly characters. Hell, maybe even good-aligned characters. To me, chaotic can do this sort of thing, where there is a much smaller wiggle room for say, an orderly-good to consciously interact with an evil chaotic. (from a CE's point of view, it's like, "HAha, I GOT you!"). Wink wink.

If you've ever read the Stephen King Gunslinger series, there is a character (The Man in Black a.k.a. Randall Flagg) who throughout time will become a man of power in some situation (i.e. an advisor to a king or something) and work with order to eventually usurp the local power structures and bring about greater chaos in one final act of betrayal. I like that sort of notion of chaos as well, all though, one would admittedly have to document what he was doing in his role in order not to get imm-smacked in the CF world.

Yeah, it's all about intent. And elaborating with role is definitely the way to go in my mind.

Your description of Neutral evil is correct, how ever an NE will have an element of concern where Order is concerned. A CE would not save perhaps for something that immediately affected them. (Damn, Magistrate right there!)

A NE may accept that a better person is suited to head a group for instance and thus follow their lead so long as it benefits them.

A CE (One that I play at least) might usurp command at any given opportunity unless it was conclusively proven that a stronger character had the right of way.

I'm bigger, I'm stronger, and I eat more.

an NE will care about Order as it effects them. I would think a CE would happily break the law, steal pies and n00bie breadz whether or not a magistrate could see, unless the magistrate could beat them down right then and there. All depends on the CE, I guess, but the way I see CE is that nobody and nothing is going to stop them from taking what they want unless there's some serious evidence someone mo' meaner is opposing it.

Agreed with the leading groups. A CE should usurp command/backstab/betray/do something nasty, kill everyone in the end, and take their tasty pies.

>Let's break down your odd statment.
>
>
>You said:
>>>You are chaotic and evil. Not helping order advance. <<
>
>Since when has this ever been a central theme for a CE? From
>our own beloved help files we have...
Who said anything about a central theme? It was never the character's central theme. You seem to be putting your own thoughts into your head. But, for you to understand this, repeatedly doing something puts things in an orderly fashion. If you don't understand that, you have the problem.
>
>The bane of all that is good and organized. Laws and
>governments are the tools of weaklings unable to fend for
>themselves. The strong have a right to what they want, and
>weak are there to be exploited. Leadership among CEs is based
>on power, with the leader capable of bullying his underlings
>into obedience.
Yes, and if you are chaotic evil, you shouldn't be the slave, you should be the leader. For awhile Derasori was doing things as the slave to empire.
>
>Your simplistic statment is more akin to Nihilism/Anarchy or
>our classic Entropist than anything Chaotic Evil. Either way,
>the manner in wich you described it seems to imply some higher
>purpose than he individual, which is what I was eluding to in
>my response.
Bleh. No, it isn't. Let me put this plainly. When...you...act...orderly...by...helping...orderly...against...chaos...you...aren't...acting...
chaotic.
>
>Chaotic evil is plain and simple, Me, me me. Might makes
>right, what happens to you matters not at all, only that I
>benefit.
Wrong. You still read D&D books I see.
>
>Once again, we have an example of you making some off the wall
>snap call sprinkled with insults and, apparently, lack of
>understanding of character motivations.
When you say we in this statement, I know you mean you.
>
>Sorry if my rant makes me look like an asshat, but I'm
>struggling to see you in a favorable light because of what I
>perceive to be no brain issues that you can't seem to grasp.
>
You just proved me right, so, if you are looking for a brain, perhaps the man behind the green curtain can get you one.
>
>

So I yield the field. n/t

You were an aquaintance of Draktel for sure. I could understand you being called a slave to civilization in some ways because you never said no to helping me. Anyway, you did kick a lot of but and sometimes it was my other chars. WE had some great fights as Martanis and other characters. I do appreciate all the help you gave me as Draktel though as I was often short-handed with backup, and I could rely on you to at least make them wary.

Great job, long lived.

forgot my stupid password and it's not autosaved on this comp.
*groan*

:) I have already forgotten all the things I meant to say to
you after you died. :) I had quite a bit of fun with you though.
Even with that dratted pursuit. Have fun with the next. and
don't take so long to die next time. *rofl*

I just have to throw a shout out to Derasori - you were one consistent (and pretty deadly) dude. I could always count on you to make Fortress' lives difficult.

Kastellyn the Devourer of Magic, Lord of Legends

*** Email me your testimonials or two-line blurbs. Help our marketing efforts! ***

Yeah, it was always fun taking the orb with you guys. I believe it came a time none imperial would attack me, even I being a ranger. I was always ready to strike the Fortress and, if I'm not wrong, I took the orb three or four times alone just to give it to an imperial to drop it.
When Kharg was around, I knew we would fight them, no matter how many of them was around. Thanks for the interactions. You rocked.