Thu Aug 23 12:01:58 2007

At 9 o'clock AM, Day of Thunder, 3rd of the Month of Nature
on the Theran calendar Rawanj perished, never to return.

Race:	storm
Class:	paladin
Level:	51
Alignment:	Good
Ethos:	Neutral
Cabal:	None, None
Age:	242
Hours:	155

To me, you were a particularly well played paladin.

You had a god who was more than just a name, in how you presented it. You weren't afraid to suffer for your beliefs, but you didn't walk up to die pointlessly either.

Having read the whole paladin thing, I think it is just one of those things where two valid role-play points of view clashed.

To have a paladin that believes you should not break the trib law is fine. To have a paladin that believes you can, if the cause is right is also fine. Personally I don't think I would have uninducted over the difference, because it makes for a dull cabal if everyone has to echo the view of the leader, but it is a route that works.

Anyway, just wanted to say that I liked your character a lot, and would have liked to have spoken with you more often.

How many times did you die that night in kuo-ta 5?

The corpse of Rawanj lies here, pierced in several places.
The sliced-off arm of Rawanj is lying here.


I was laughing a lot....

Good times running from the Tribunal :P

Anyway, enjoyed what few encounters we had.

nt

I was inducted, uninducted, and spent the majority of my life trying to get re-inducted :P.

I only fought you two or three times, and it was refreshing to see a paladin that would challenge me rather than hunt me down in a roving gank squad. Although you were, in fact, part of the biggest gang I've ever witnessed and died to. I almost made it too...

Good luck in the fields.

This is a completely seperate topic from my previos post.

Basically, right after I was inducted I was in Hamsah, killed a few evils and got warranted. I refused to turn myself in to the evil trib(some dark-elf a-p)(But I wouldnt have turned myself in at all, either, at that point in the characters life), and Nih and I had a talk. He uninducted me and later on I went to Baerinika, and Nih and I argued it out again with her acting as kind of the 'Judge'. Nih stood by his guns, basically saying that if I couldnt follow the Code, then I couldnt be trusted to follow the Creed. I stood by mine, that there were different sets of Laws then just the tribunal law, and I followed Aquastrin's, and we got...nowhere(which was totally cool to me, he played it exactly like I think a Baerinika should have). Baerinika stood by Nih and told me that I would have to get his approval before being allowed to be a squire. In the end it was kosher, I got Faith because of the whole ordeal.

Later, Aquastrin(Which Imm was that, by the way?) and I had a talk, and I tried to make some compromises that would make Nih/Baerinika more receptive, but I never got a chance to approach Baer.

The Paladin's code is based on the a societal ideal, not your religious dogma.

Paladins are protectors of the people, not renegade slayers of evil.

From what you describe I approve of Nih's approach to your uninduction, IC'ly and OOC'ly. Furthermore I suspect that Baer was trying to throw you a bone and you missed it.

I must have been a ####ty-ass paladin to get a virtue for the uninduction.

I've recieved virtues.

Let me say that I don't normally agree with Thuul a lot, but in this case...

Playing a "paladin" who doesn't care about the laws definitely isn't innovative or awesome roleplaying, when all of your characters ever don't give a crap about the laws. That part of the character, at least, is just you playing the same damn thing again and again and again.

Personally, I wouldn't have empowered Rawanj at all. That's not to say there weren't redeeming things to the character, but he just was not a paladin to me at all. Luckily for you, I didn't make that call.

This scarred me deep, Neppy:(. I really value your opinion, so can I ask you to elaborate please?

Mostly just the role entry of: I'm completely tossing this chunk of the code, that coincidentally is the only part of playing this character that would be any kind of RP challenge to me as a player.

For the record, other than all things relating to that, I didn't have any problems with Rawanj, and he had his good moments.

Thanks. You're completely right though, that was a me OOC, classic move:

"What? Not pk wherever I damn well please? #### that!" and it probably should have been changed to make a better character. Thank you for elaborating again.

..a,a

I really liked what I saw. I think I was always just watching you at good times for you though, because when I checked your pk, it was WAY worse than I thought it was. It just seemed like every time I was watching you, you were making a difference in a raid, or killing some evil guy, or generally doing a good job. I came as Aquastrin when you prayed for him in the water, and got jumped by Ravon, and I talked him into not killing you. The interaction was good, and I thought I set you up for a chance at getting back into the fortress and where you wanted to be, and let you get there on your own, but then you just kept attacking people in town, and seemed like you disregarded all of the conclusions you had come to in front of your god. As far as setting a god name on your prayers, I don't have that ability, so I couldn't do it. Anyway, good luck on the next, I enjoyed watching you.

You were great in that interaction. I really like how you steered me. I was kind of downtrodden though that you told me to compromise since Baer's religion is completely anti-compromise, and I knew Nih wouldnt go for that:P. But the whole Aquastrin interaction there, instructing me, reprimanding me, reminding me, teaching me... even though you didnt actually have a religion, I FELT like I was the follower, and that the religion was your creation, and I REALLY liked that feeling. So thank you.

Were you the first Aquastrin I caught? I spoke to Aquastrin twice, and both times were amazing.

we had some really insane and fun fights. You got me in organia under flurry lag, I got you in Veran under request lag sanc down. Then we fought 2/3 times and I think I got you convulsing then youd finish me off, that happened twice for sure, other times you kicked my butt or I kicked yours, I will forever hate hiltsmash because of it. good luck with the next, thanks for the respect.

I'm not one for long drawn out goodbye threads, basically, I'll respond to your posts. But heres a quick goodbye to the Fort/Imms.


First, Iunna: You even get the headspot before Aquastrin, because you kept this character going. Taking the time to just..talk, and listen, and exchange information and stories with you was more fun then anything I had previously imagined. I cannot thank you enough, you saved this character an early deletion.

Aquastrin(s): I really liked you. I liked the chance you gave me to do my own thing, and I liked the way you took my role and molded it to your own deal. I did feel slighted a tad, but it wasnt a big deal, and I was very lucky to get the chance with my own made up religion..so..thanks.

Fortress: As a collective group, I liked a few, and disliked a few.

Niheriva: I like how you stuck to your guns, but I still think your argument was a poor one. I think you should have treated me with disdain, but I feel as if I should have been a squire. Especially with how much I did for the Fortress on countless occasions, but, it was your call and I was chill with that. I'll post more on your own goodbye thread.

Niela: I said what I meant to say in your goodbyes, but I liked you, and we were a force together.

Duujai: I liked you a lot. A whole bunch. I just got a great vibe from you and I knew I could rely on you.

Lyriana: You showed me a whole bunch, so, thank you.

Thelnorn: I considered you like... a child hood friend who beat more ass then me. And you did, and you do, and you made a damn fine maran. Kudos.

Wesly: You were cool, you kicked a lot of ass. You were slightly pushy, but that was cool with me.

I *really* liked Rawanj and am bummed that you weren't ever reinducted. I don't think it would have made much difference in the end, anyway, because you were ALWAYS there and always ready to go raid/defend, despite the fact that you weren't a member of the cabal. Cool beans character.

Ever since the first blade you gave me, I got that same feeling too. With the childhood friend thing. Not so much the ass beater. I've had my fair share of ugh and it's shown more than once. Great character, especially with a non IMM empowerment, keep on truckin.

See you in the fields

Niheriva: I like how you stuck to your guns, but I still think your argument was a poor one. I think you should have treated me with disdain, but I feel as if I should have been a squire. Especially with how much I did for the Fortress on countless occasions, but, it was your call and I was chill with that. I'll post more on your own goodbye thread.



-I think my argument was pretty much the only route I could go with it. Sphere purity elf that thinks there is nothing purer than the Paladin Code the way it was intended and plainly written isn't going to be very happy with someone who tosses one of its tenents out the window because it makes it easier to pk people, especially when your argument is 'the god I made up lets me ignore that part of the code.' :P

You did a lot for the Fortress, and as soon as you showed me you could live up to the Code I would have inducted you, I told you from the get go I wouldn't meet you half way.

I didn't uninduct you for not turning yourself in to an evil tribunal by the way, it was kind of weird that that's the reason you gave people on several occasions when I plainly said it was because you broke the law and didn't follow the Code so I didn't trust you to follow the Creed or not try to bend it to your convenience.

Overall I wish I could have seen you beat more ass as a Squire, I was really surprised when I found out it was you because I'm not used to seeing that kind of roleplay from you, so good job with that.

>First, Iunna: You even get the headspot before Aquastrin,
>because you kept this character going. Taking the time to
>just..talk, and listen, and exchange information and stories
>with you was more fun then anything I had previously imagined.
>I cannot thank you enough, you saved this character an early
>deletion.

I really liked interacting with you, mostly because it was fun/engaging, but also because you seemed genuinely interested in nothing more than the conversation provided. It's a rare thing. I'm glad you enjoyed it too. Good luck with the next!

I don't understand how, over the years, we keep finding Paladin's who just write up their own version of the code.

Eventually, you just gotta be made Chaotic, because you were an in town attacking machine.

I would offer that some part of the Ethos restriction and code is that you believe in civic order.

You gave us so many good swords I nearly chose swords over axes for my second spec.

I assumed you were either a new player or Shamman man as much as you died. =)

I'm sorry you cant grasp a bit of differentiation. I interpreted the code the way I felt a righteous warrior of the waters would, and put down a role entry about my decisions. Paladins can be orderly or neutral, and I wasnt orderly.

I knew right away you were NG Pal# 231323 v2 who had a role that justified chaotic good behavior.

I never said you were orderly, but an NG character, especially a Paladin has on some level an affiliation with society. I didn't see that with you. I saw a Two-hander CG Shaman who was allowed to make up some off the wall role about "Water Law" and do what ever they wanted.

This sort of thing frustrates me to no end, especially as I play them fairly often.

CN Murder Gnome 433432 was changed here recently to CE and I nearly had a heart attack! (It only took 12 years to see it happen)

I feel that the stuff you got away with basically lessens the class as a whole, both in terms of their mystique and the affects they have on game play.

I can see your "differentiation" as you put it, but I disagree with it.

Glad this character is gone, not because you are a poor player, but this appeared to be a poor paladin.

How many times were you made WANTED?

How many times did you get away with commiting a crime do you suppose.

How many times was I made wanted? A fair amount. How many times did I 'get away'? Never. If a trib asked me, being a good little paladin I said 'Yeah, I jumped so and so'.

As to your NG paladin #949494 spiel, I feel as if you are very, very narrow minded. It just strikes me of 'I cant deal with anything if its not the way I envision it'.

To jump on the good and evil train so to speak. Since it's argued that they are absolutes in CF, then so to must be Ethos.

You can't make up a CE character and spin a role and say he is LG. Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

As far as your confessional goes, that's more a matter of Ethos, or even sphere and of alignment.

My views are not narrowminded, I've had some roles that push it as well, but this was, from what I could see, a Paladin that shouldn't have been. You were that far out of the box. (A phrase I think is completly over used)

I wasnt LG, ####, no one is...Its orderly good, since there are more then one set of laws in the game. For intance, take an imperial. They're Orderly, but they break the law sometimes if they see an anathema. Because the SET OF LAWS they follow is -different- then trib laws. Buuuuut, I was neither, I was NG, So your point is completely invalid.

I viewed all evils much like an imperial views an anathema. Their crimes are too great, and must be punished where ever they were. Further more, I turned myself in to any goodie and even some neutral tribs that were around later on in my character's life.(After some role oriented things happened).

I understand the word Lawful was replaced with Orderly some time ago to allow for some lattitude. I think that was a mistake because powergamers such as yourself sieze upon that distinction and run with it.

Neutral Good/Neutral/Evil I feel fits what the intent of Orderly was. If you wanted to wax Lawful, You are lawful (What we call orderly), Law-bending, you are Neutral, Law breaking (Consistantly what you did), Chaotic.

The way you viewed evils is a great role for a shaman (A chamion of a god), which you should have played. I don't think it's a valid role for a Paladin (A champion of the people as defined by the code)

Basicly it seems to me like you custom made a role that separated you from the normal attachments a Paladin would have, so you could have a Shaman with Strike of Faith.

I would give you some pointers on sealing kills with a Paladin (Since you never got me), but I don't want to ever see you in one again. =)

Orderly is not lawful. It is not word replacement. It is restructuring the ethos. Orderly indicates structured thought, methodical action.

Just a heads up for you, re read your own post. See where you keep saying "I feel" "I think". That means its all your opinion.

And why we spent the time to rewrite various information regarding ethos, and the origin of the decision to go with "Orderly" over "Lawful".

Orderly is not lawful. It is not word replacement. It is restructuring the ethos. Orderly indicates structured thought, methodical action.

Just a heads up for you, re read your own post. See where you keep saying "I feel" "I think". That means its all your opinion.

Correct. He's welcome to it, and it's one way to play an Orderly ethos, but it doesn't mean we're going to unempower/etc. people based on diverging from his interpretation.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Somethings should be cut and dried. I fail to see the logic of "Orderly" since it's wide open to interpretation.

Having a standard that people can be judged by and held to account isn't a bad thing. What I see now, and frequently are people who make roles that just allow for them to wear gear/hold classes the should otherwise not be playing.

Anyway, it's all my opinion, and I'd rather not see a Paladin like this running around ever again.

Because of how *you* interpret one section of the code. Your view is narrowminded and limited to your own OOC perceptions.

Paladins do have a standard that they are held to, thankfully you aren't overseeing that.

for a hunting ground is too much.

I'd never go so far as to say my way is the only way, at least not intentionally. But there is a way, and he seemed way away from it.

I'm going to go role an Orderly Good outlander and say that The natural order is survival of the fittest and that by killing off all the weak we benifit future generations of the various species while easng the burden to Thar-Eris.

We UNDERSTAND you were playing a Trib character. We UNDERSTAND you have an opinion on ethos and on the Code and on paladins.

We just don't care.

Unless you become an imm (*snort* *giggle*), and your opinion suddenly starts mattering. You see, he was uninducted, not unempowered. Therefore, he must not have been a terrible paladin, but perhaps one that the current mortal Fort leadership didn't jibe with.

Or perhaps he, indeed, did attack in town too much, but in any case: stop vomiting all over this guys goodbye thread, and make one on gameplay if you really need to go repeat yourself over and over and over again somewhere.

I'd expect more from a paladin-playing Professional.

sd

There's something ironic about a failed Tribunal who couldn't roleplay his cabal's rules criticizing a Paladin's interpretation of the Code. Don't you think that you would, literally, be the LAST person to give advice on this issue?

There is no connection between the two.

Further more, I can RP tribunal. I have and still did. I disagree with how my own uninduction was handled but that is irrelevant to my opinion of this Paladin.

Your example would be like saying that since this guy played a Paladin, he couldn't play an orc.

I really liked this char. I enjoyed our fights. I liked your made up deity and how his teachings came across.

A shame I won't run into you anymore. I hope you deleted because you
achieved whatever goals you set out to, rather than because it wasn't fun.

Anyway, best of luck with the next.

I tried to get across to you how much I liked you. Seriously, you were so much fun to fight and talk with, and that time in Blackwater I was so sure I had you toasted:(. Sadly though, I didnt even mean to delete. I was 2 deaths from con death, but raged, and meant to reactivate..I just never did.:-/

>I tried to get across to you how much I liked you. Seriously,
>you were so much fun to fight and talk with, and that time in
>Blackwater I was so sure I had you toasted:(.

Heh...it sure surprised me when you went from convulsing to gushing.
Unfortunately, I haven't kept a log, but I had around 20 hp left after your strike went through.

Pure heat, man!

Good luck with the next. I am almost tempted to roll a paladin when Throkk is done.