Tue Jun 26 11:49:00 2007

At 8 o'clock AM, Day of Thunder, 3rd of the Month of the Winter Wolf
on the Theran calendar Neikulous perished, never to return.

Race:	elf
Class:	invoker
Level:	51
Alignment:	Good
Ethos:	Chaotic
Cabal:	OUTLANDER, the Outlanders of Thar-Eris
Age:	610
Hours:	285

I thought it odd none of us took credit for "banning" you. I thought... "Wouldn't it just be the greatest, if he made the ban up?". I know you've had no qualms with fabricating stories in the past, but this seemed low even by your standards. So we cross-referenced every IP you've ever posted as Vladamir with versus the banned IP list for our forums. You're not banned. We haven't even made the slightest effort to ban you.

What's next...an imaginary life-threatening disease?

This sort of inane BS makes me want to hit you with my car and throw you into a volcano.

I couldn't reply to any posts here from my house until after you made this post. Everytime I tried I got a screen saying "Message posting is denied", so I'm afraid I'm going to have to say you're full of #### on this one. I wasn't going out of my way to be confrontational here, but you're a lying sack if you say I wasn't denied before now. If you think I'd let some of the #### said here go by without being replied to if I possibly could, then you're delusional.

The list wasn't that long, and we could trace all of them (except one, still looking into that, but it's not you) to six people.

I mean, not that I'd cry if we put your ban back in place or anything.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I don't just make this #### up. You think for one second I'd have just sat back and let some of these posts go by without replies? What would I possibly have to gain from claiming to be denied ability to post here, knowing you all would look into it? I don't know who undid it, and frankly I don't care but don't you even try to tell me I wasn't banned before now.

What would I possibly have to gain from claiming to be denied ability to post here, knowing you all would look into it?

Who knows. You've done weirder things.

I assumed you lost your temper and someone dropped a ban on you without cross-posting it. I admit I was not sad over this development.

I cross-checked the list and reminded other IMPs how to check it for themselves. Nothing on there matched the 13 sites you've used over the last few months, and there wasn't even anything close.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I don't get the "Message posting is denied" screen for no reason, and I don't imagine this ####. Funny how I could post just fine from work, but not from home, ain't it?

But then I probably made that up too.

>I don't get the "Message posting is denied" screen for no
>reason, and I don't imagine this ####. Funny how I could post
>just fine from work, but not from home, ain't it?
>
>But then I probably made that up too.

We just really don't know much about the ban list for the forum software :P I sent you an email. Let me know, I think I finally understand this crap.

But when I see a screen saying "Message posting denied", what else am I going to assume, all things considered?

n/t

nt

Perhaps it was a glitch. I was getting the same message. I just assumed with my relationship with Valg, he hit the switch.

I just found myself able to post again after reading your's.

nt

Unless Valg and Seb are there to tell you whether or not you're imagining things? Heheh.

But it seems that it was an issue for at least two of their favorite Vet's.

I'm from Missouri, you'll have to Show Me.

I agree with the Imms on some points and the players on other points. I admit that I said some mean things in the heat of it all. I still think there were a lot worse things that I witnessed as some characters than what Neik did.

That being said, would it be possible to unban Vlad and at least let him have some words?

Got me. I didn't ban him (or anyone else) recently, and Valg didn't either. At this point I'd have to dig up documentation for where the banhammer list even resides.

I could post the original thread from my work, but after that when I tried to post from home I got a "Message posting is denied" screen. Now I don't but Sebeok denies there was ever a ban in the first place. Now, how funny is that?

And I know I am probably biased as I spent a lot of time with this char and liked him a lot.

But still, let's have a look at his Imm comments.

Firstly, about this SUPER-GANK comment that I expect to see in my PBF as well. I think this log was posted both from my and Haratzi's points of view on Dio, so anyone can familiarise himself with it. Let's be honest. Two people (with guest appearance of Dacob at the end when it didn't matter at all) taking down super prepared invoker who was mangling groups of four Forties while retrieving is hardly super-gank in my book. You have different opinion on this? Fine with me. We are all humans, and we are all biased. But shouldn't these Forties get negative comments as well then? Just for the sake of fairness? Or if they've managed to lose to Haratzi while ganking him down in even worse manner kinda removes the whole "sin" of ganking? Are we punished for being effective here, or what? Or should we fight Haratzi one by one, while he is mangling the Huntress? BS, BS, BS.

Now about looting. As far as I recall I took like one thing from his corpse. Nei took none. And most of it was distributed among low-level Outlanders who had nothing with this kill at all. Yet we all get negative comments and titles for that. As for me, I was explained that as a leader I should take care of this matter. I am not buying this BS, and I never will, just FYI, but still I guess I could see the reasoning. But what about Nei? Negative comment for doing good thing? Come on! I knew you liked Haratzi (same as I did), but let's be a bit fair, eh?

About his RP. Naturally, I couldn't see his role or anything. And I will agree that while RPing non-standard RP line, one should probably add more chapters to his role and stuff. But from what I saw (and many people agree with me here) his RP was pretty consistant. Yes, non-standard, yes, annoying sometimes, but consistant. I am too lazy now to read his role, but as far as I recall he was RPing a street child from city suburbs with bad childhood experience etc. Which perfectly explains dirty language, annoying behavour etc. It took me couple of hours to find it out. I would expect Imms to pay a bit more attention and giving shadow of a doubt before punishing someone, you know... But again, I know how hard it is to be unbiased. So I won't blame anyone. As for me, negative Imm interaction is still a good thing to have. I would not make a drama from that.

Now about his deaths. Man, he did had a bad habit dying the most stupid and annoying deaths! To the point what it became a joke among Outlanders - 'dying like Nei'. But is it something to be punished for? Hmm, I don't think so, sorry. All of us have different playing styles. I prefer to predict every fight in advance and plan every move and every possibility. Shamanman plays exactly the opposite style. Does it make him worse player then I am? Hell no! It makes game fun! His whole comment about 'The only thing that can kill me' is hell lot of fun if you knew this char better! It is VERY fair for him to say it. As 70% of his deaths are stupid, easily-avoided mistakes.

In general, I can see both sides of the problem here, and I don't blame anyone. But I can understand the whole disappointment of Vlad.

Vlad, hope to see you on the fields! And good luck!

Are we punished for being effective here, or what?

Neikulous was in no way punished for his observed lootasaurus-ness. An Imm expressly noted that the action wasn't illegal or anything, but he just found it to be poor gamesmanship.

Yet we all get negative comments and titles for that.

Negative comments which come out after the character is dead, yes. Titles? Neikulous deleted with his original class-based title.

To the point what it became a joke among Outlanders - 'dying like Nei'. But is it something to be punished for? Hmm, I don't think so, sorry.

1) Please explain where Neikulous was punished for that.

2) 12+-year-Veteran players dying to an academy fleshy creature is hilarious, and if you can't see that I weep for your soul.

I would expect Imms to pay a bit more attention and giving shadow of a doubt before punishing someone, you know... But again, I know how hard it is to be unbiased. So I won't blame anyone. As for me, negative Imm interaction is still a good thing to have. I would not make a drama from that.

1) Please tell me that you didn't just claim that Halistanis would not make a drama out of a negative interaction. You very, very frequently took IC issues to complain about on the forums while the character was active, and both you and Neikulous damaged your characters' credibility with it IMO.

2) Here there was actual punishment! Neikulous wasn't punished for "a" comment, however. He was initially hit for XP (by a very punishment-averse Immortal) for consistent pollution of the Outlander CB with what was deemed to be non-RP. (Let's not pretend his speech was a clever RP angle, and just call it what it was-- the player just playing himself, slang and all.) Later in life, he was hit again for, well, continuing to do the exact same thing. It's hard to make a "benefit of the doubt" argument when the events go like that, and it's completely ignorant on your part to assume it was a snap decision.

3) That all said, if the playerbase is now so soft that the loss of 1000 XP and a verbal IC correction is now considered "character-ruining", we should just paint Galadon lavender and rename it "Happy Pillow Unicorn Town". Somewhere, Cador is rolling over in his office chair, wondering how our playerbase evolved into such easily-bruised drama-queen special-snowflake crybabies. Christ, if half our staff started a "Woe is me" thread every time some yahoo made a negative comment about us, we'd have to buy another server to store it.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Let's clear out
By "punishment" in this case I mean negative comments in PBF. It is not a direct punishment per se, but nevertheless it is something negative, isn't it? Change the word to whatever you prefer if you wish.


<<<Neikulous was in no way punished for his observed lootasaurus-ness. An Imm expressly noted that the action wasn't illegal or anything, but he just found it to be poor gamesmanship.>>>

One more time - could I please get an answer in what way it was "poor gamesmanship"? Defending Outer with the whole clan is poor gamesmanship? Killing foe who knew exactly what he was doing when coming to the Tree? Watching someone else looting this foe? I need clarification here.
Note - clarification like "We all wake up in bad mood sometimes, we are human beings after all" will do as well. Just admit it, ok?

<<<12+-year-Veteran players dying to an academy fleshy creature is hilarious, and if you can't see that I weep for your soul>>>

Agreed. It IS funny. But I would not say it is an indication of suckiness as well, no?
Let's be honest, most of powerplayers would delete and restart after that. Not a big deal, 5 minutes lost. Why not mention it as a credit, for example? Let's be more positive!

<<<Please tell me that you didn't just claim that Halistanis would not make a drama out of a negative interaction. You very, very frequently took IC issues to complain about on the forums while the character was active, and both you and Neikulous damaged your characters' credibility with it IMO.>>>

I am not planning to turn it into flame wars so I will answer only once to that. It was NOT me who started this forum drama. I've never asked anyone to start it on the first place. Scroll down and look at it, yes? I joined it only after some Imms (I won't point fingers) started throwing BS comments and unfair answers which made char look real bad. May be I should keep it to myself, but if Imms are in right to blame and critisize, so am I. At least I hope so. I honestly could not care little of losing credibility though. Honestly.

<<<Here there was actual punishment! Neikulous wasn't punished for "a" comment, however. He was initially hit for XP (by a very punishment-averse Immortal) for consistent pollution of the Outlander CB with what was deemed to be non-RP. (Let's not pretend his speech was a clever RP angle, and just call it what it was-- the player just playing himself, slang and all.) Later in life, he was hit again for, well, continuing to do the exact same thing. It's hard to make a "benefit of the doubt" argument when the events go like that, and it's completely ignorant on your part to assume it was a snap decision.>>>

I will state it once more then. He was pretty consistant with his RP line, and his comments were completely legitimate and supported by his RP. If you choose to punish him for that, fine with me. But I will call it BS in my personal book, sorry.

<<<That all said, if the playerbase is now so soft that the loss of 1000 XP and a verbal IC correction is now considered "character-ruining", we should just paint Galadon lavender and rename it "Happy Pillow Unicorn Town". Somewhere, Cador is rolling over in his office chair, wondering how our playerbase evolved into such easily-bruised drama-queen special-snowflake crybabies. Christ, if half our staff started a "Woe is me" thread every time some yahoo made a negative comment about us, we'd have to buy another server to store it.>>>

I am definately not a veteran, and so name "Cador" means nothing to me FYI. But in general I would love to see a bit more friendly environment. "I have a dream", you know.

Thanks.

<I will state it once more then. He was pretty consistant with his RP line, and his comments were completely legitimate and supported by his RP. If you choose to punish him for that, fine with me. But I will call it BS in my personal book, sorry.>

The rp wasn't legitimate. He was an elven invoker fighting for Thar-Eris. He was rping a gangsta from the streets.

For a moment, I want you to take an elven invoker in the CF setting, give him a platinum grille, four knuckle ring that reads "Byotch", a medallion around his neck that reads "Playa", and a set of FUBU 05 gear. All I see is a ridiculous picture that this type of rp depicts.

Nice one, sheesh.

>One more time - could I please get an answer in what way it
>was "poor gamesmanship"? Defending Outer with the whole clan
>is poor gamesmanship? Killing foe who knew exactly what he was
>doing when coming to the Tree? Watching someone else looting
>this foe? I need clarification here.

Combination of all of it, basically.

Watching that whole debacle, I asked myself, how would I feel if I was Haratzi? Would I want to try to fight those three people for my item back? Absolutely. It'd be a fight I probably couldn't win (especially with an enemy invoker there) but trying would be fun.

Would I ever pull something like that with the same players again after they looted me down to the pies in those conditions? Hell no.

Basically, I felt like Haratzi was being a good sportsman there because he was giving you a crack at him under extremely disadvantageous conditions. He didn't have to do that. He could have bided his time and come after one or more of you logged off, or whatever. He had the option and chose to come at you with the odds way stacked against him, something that theoretically was more fun for you guys than if he hadn't.

You chose to reward that by, essentially, being as merciless as possible. If, as a player, try to play in a way that will make the game more fun for you and you respond by playing in a way that will make it the least fun for me as possible, I'm not going to make that mistake again.

As I said in the comment, nothing wrong with it RPwise, but I wished you were cooler about it. If you've ever sat there with someone's cabal item and bitched about how they weren't trying to fight you and get it back (and we both know that, at times, you have), then you've essentially wished you were cooler about things like that, too.

That's my opinion. If you don't share it, that's fine. Imm comments are what they are. Treat them like movie reviews if you like; there are some reviewers that I generally don't agree with, and some that I do. Maybe in similar fashion you decide you don't generally agree with my comments, and that's fine, too.

So many players fall into the "cautious" category and refuse to take risks. Which brings up a whole other topic altogether probably deserving its own thread.

And there's plenty of reason for it too.

In the case of Outlander vs Tribunal:

Outlander is really far away, and takes a while to walk to even if you know the path like the back of your hand. That gives the Outlanders plenty of time to sort through all the 'good' stuff. And let's face it, people take lots of things they don't even need. Happens with every fight that involves a death.

Tribunal has u-haul trucks there to ensure they loot anything and everything they can. Then they might dump off some snow worm gear for you--maybe.

Where is the incentive to take the risk? The slight chance there -might- be an Immortal watching you get your ass raped, who may or may not give you any sort of reward for accepting th risk? If I'm an Outlander fighting a transmuter, paladin, shapeshifter and a warrior (with polearm and striking the shadows footfall), honestly, what are the odds I'll actually be successful? The more likely scenario is, you'll die against those odds and will be left having to regear. And the reason that's no fun is, if you couldn't beat them with a full set of gear and whatever else you've collected, what the hell makes you think you can do it after getting raped by that ensemble?

And what incentive do Tribunal have to go running into the woods where an unaccounted number of Outlanders are waiting happily at the huntress to toss on insect swarm, bioempathy, trepidation, etc., which will likely result in your death. The Tribunal do not lose anything that significant. Why take the risk?

And it's not just Tribunal/Outlander that is like that. Almost every cabal war is skewed one way or the other. The cabal system is flawed. The raiding system is flawed.

I don't have answers.

People are losing that vibe of "gear is transient". You didn't have that gear upon creation. If you could get it once, even if you can't take it back immediately, whats stopping you from doing it later when the odds aren't completely stacked against you? My point is, who ####ing cares? Yes, shinies are fun, but they aren't fun unless you are trying to plow asses like an amish farmer plows fields (for those of you who don't know, an amish farmer plows fields the hard way all day long). Stop worrying about the set. I'm not saying suicide, but if you have even a window of opportunity, take it. Its those moments when it pays off that make the game great for me. Thats just me though, I like taking risks. It boggles the ####ing mind for me when someone complains because I took 1-3 items to upgrade after a kill. On the whole, I haven't really lost anything but a couple of items after a death (I of course am not rocking a cabdru set, however, if I were and I died I would expect to be full looted and not be upset over it, because I'd do it if the situation were reversed)

Get over it people.

Well said.

Let's see here... shall I go suicide into outstandingly uneven odds in 5 minutes, then spend another hour-two-or-three, or even several more logins, trying to replace some of what I lost?

Or maybe I could spend that time more conventionally and explore or something, instead of suiciding into the mass gang waiting just inside their cabal outer to slaughter me. Just because your cabal doesn't have its cabal item, doesn't indicate that you must be working solely to retrieve that item. There's more to CF than taking outstanding risks, which will inevitably just piss you off (even though you knew you wouldn't make it out alive), than cabal raiding/risk taking.

Personally, I could give two ####s about taking suicide risks. I've done plenty of risk taking, and I think I've gotten one PBF comment for it over the years. I'll continue to play the way I do, which leans conservatively, because starting from scratch doesn't appeal to me. Not even one bit. And let's face it, if you're raiding a cabal and die, a majority of the time, your things will be gone by the time you get back. Why is that? Cabal swings. There might be one Empire and four Outlanders. Two hours later, it's reversed.


Summary: 5 minutes - dying in cabal raid + several hours of regaining some things you lost.

Or

Spend that time doing something else which will reward the player for another day or another login. Or even possibly the same login.

Your idea of fun =! Everyone else's idea of fun.

Your idea of fun might = Some people's idea of fun

Now, this doesn't count dying some place like Galadon. You are coming back to an empty corpse in a scenario like that.

I'm not saying you have to play like that. But I know players that *never* take risks. Never. How is that fun? I don't mean an obvious suicide mission. I mean zero risks. If they don't know they have every aspect of the fight hemmed up prior to going into it, they don't go. I didn't say play like Shamanman, I don't enjoy suiciding like that either. I do enjoy going at stacked odds and either coming out on top or at the very least surviving. I don't expect anyone to just suicide into retarded odds but ffs people, push yourselves a little and step outside your comfort zone.

Also, it has never taken me several log ins over several days to get up and running. Unless you have an absurd 500+hp set or 120 damroll set or something crazy like that, generally speaking you can grab decent regear at hero and be up and running only slightly disadvantaged from where you were. Thats my own experience anyway, and the times I have monster sets, I feel almost obligated to go out and give my range a shot at the shinies (it probably has more to do with the fact it makes it easier to win those fights :) ).

Because that's about the same level I play on--what you just described.

Sorry Neik/Vlad for a mini hi-jack.

:) I can't remember when I laughed so hard over a line involving the amish! Thanks!

Oh, I also agree with the general sentiment even if I get upset sometimes after a hard looting. :p I'm a hypocrite I know.

>It is not a direct punishment per se, but nevertheless it is
>something negative, isn't it?

Not to me. While the comment may be unfavorable, receiving it is a positive thing to me. I would rather have a pbf with 5 negative comments and 1 positive comment than one with 6 positive comments. Different people have different opinions, but personally I improve best by correcting my mistakes, so having those mistakes pointed out is very helpful to me.

My experience generally has been that people buying PBFs seem much more disappointed about a character that has no comments than one with negative comments.

It's damn rare that even one of my characters doesn't have a comment that I don't agree with. C'est la vie.

Oh crap. I'm still laughing at your post 20 minutes after reading it.

Fleshy creature in the academy took him out. *wipes tear from his eyes* I wasn't even sure they could actually kill you. That's like having a heart attack while giving compressions to a CPR dummy.

That said, there should be a quest to temporarily paint Galadon purple and rename it. It'd be an awesome way to re-introduce Entropy.

-F

You guys really need to get over it. From what I can tell they didn't do anything but hit you with neg xp and a little talking to for failure to RP, no matter how much you want to spin it. Stop whining and get over it.

> That all said, if the playerbase is now so soft ...

Yet its poor gamesmanship to what? Gank someone down? Heh. I don't disagree with your entire post but while some XP loss is hardly ruining a character in the same vein a powerful, well geared, highly prepared character dying 3 v 1 and getting looted isn't anything freakishly outlandish (pardon the pun).

I mean you argue with people who NEVER admitted they are wrong. And I think they should never make such precedent.
So stop pointless discussion and login with your char, I am pissed of number in my who list.

Especially coupled with some tough job projects and certifications I need to prepare to!

I don't even have time to write down this little role and description I have in mind.

But I will do my best, man, honestly :)

First voker. First Outlander. I liked it a whole lot in the beginning. I LOVE the Outlander cabal, and the freedom it represents. I was pretty bummed when Innis went the way of the dodo, and most of the Outlanders I was tight with started deleting, getting booted and what not. Then the nonsense started where I was getting little pokes from an immortal.

The first time I had defended against multiple foes, and said something about how they had "kicked me in the junk" but I lived. BAM, gigged imm xp and someone got on the cabal channel and gave me a lecture that sounded far FAR more like some sissy school marm librarian city slicker than anyone who ought to be speaking for Outlander.

That was only the first of several instances like that, and every time it happened it was after having done exactly what an Outlander should be doing. Every time it happened, it really just pissed me off, and made me less and less interested in even playing the character, which I suppose was the point. Well congrats, you took what was a really fun character for a few hundred hours, and made me not want to play them anymore. I hope you feel great about pissing on someone elses good time.

There were so many Outlanders to come and go in the time since I started this character, I couldn't possibly name them all. So I won't even try. Post and I'll reply, because I'm getting lazy in my old age. Also if nobody has picked up Hali's PBF yet, just let me know and I will. I was too slow on Khargs, someone beat me to it. :P

CF is still the best game around, and if I ever figure out how to just avoid a certain few people I will be much better off.

>The first time I had defended against multiple foes, and said
>something about how they had "kicked me in the junk" but I
>lived. BAM, gigged imm xp and someone got on the cabal channel
>and gave me a lecture that sounded far FAR more like some
>sissy school marm librarian city slicker than anyone who ought
>to be speaking for Outlander.

I remember that incident, because I was like... okay, what am I missing here that this elf mage is talking this way? I haven't watched this character a ton, what's the deal?

Then Sebeok, Amaranthe, and Innis started paying attention and were all horrified. I moved on to working on something else but I'm pretty sure one of them bitched you out over cb and hit you with the -xp stick and that they all were more or less in consensus that it didn't seem like RP to them.

Often, there's a lot I like about your characters, and there's also a fair bit I don't like, and maybe the latter is just one of those areas where we disagree... but, I completely back the use of minor "uh, you need to RP here" nudges like XP removal for a character like that that (at the time) had no role. Not that having a role is carte blanche to do whatever you want, but you have to assume that an Outlander elf wizard who's all telling people his ass hurts from the beating they gave him or that they should shove their armor up their ass sideways is not roleplaying. At any time, the number of players who lose it and make OOC comments when they die vastly, vastly outnumbers characters who have legitimate reasons to talk like that.

Obviously, everyone has different ideas about what is or isn't good/bad RP. In the past you've been as loud as anyone about saying: I think this character did these things that are ####ty RP, therefore, I think he should be punished in some way, or didn't deserve reward X he got, etc. Basically, I feel like if we need to give a free pass to all of the elves who talk like teenage mall rats, if we need to assume without other mitigating factors that this is RP, then we no longer can attempt to police or reward RP at all.

You are absolutely ridiculous.

>>I remember that incident, because I was like... okay, what am I missing here that this elf mage is talking this way? I haven't watched this character a ton, what's the deal?<<

>>Sat Jan 6 10:36:59 2007 by 'Daevryn' at level 40 (162 hrs):
You say 'Damn my ass hurts' Not really what I'd call a roleplayer.<<

Well, if it was his character saying about his digital bottom in the game, that IS roleplaying. How he presented it may have bothered you, but seeing as how you stated that you haven't watched the character much, how can you pass judgment? As someone who has been in Outlander a LOT and seen all the sick, disgusting, perverted things Innis, Crackernuts, Lyristeon, etc. have done, why is it the Imms can be magically sanctioned against negative repercussions and a player can't roleplay that kind of thing? Tell me it doesn't happen and I'll pull the log out of Innis 'roleplaying' pulling out his wang in front of Chaisse.

>>Then Sebeok, Amaranthe, and Innis started paying attention and were all horrified. I moved on to working on something else but I'm pretty sure one of them bitched you out over cb and hit you with the -xp stick and that they all were more or less in consensus that it didn't seem like RP to them.<<

I don't know about Sebeok and Amaranthe, but compared to Innis, Neikulous was tame. I really, really don't need to go more into this, do I?

>>Often, there's a lot I like about your characters, and there's also a fair bit I don't like, and maybe the latter is just one of those areas where we disagree... but, I completely back the use of minor "uh, you need to RP here" nudges like XP removal for a character like that that (at the time) had no role. Not that having a role is carte blanche to do whatever you want, but you have to assume that an Outlander elf wizard who's all telling people his ass hurts from the beating they gave him or that they should shove their armor up their ass sideways is not roleplaying. At any time, the number of players who lose it and make OOC comments when they die vastly, vastly outnumbers characters who have legitimate reasons to talk like that.<<

>>Mon Feb 19 12:25:57 2007 by 'Cyradia' at level 51 (242 hrs):
This char constantly displays the WORST RP I've seen from an elf. If I were a better imm, I'd watch more and punish for all his border-line OOC, 13 year old slang...but I fear the blisters that much typing would cause.<<

I inducted him and even I could tell that there was more behind this character. There are a LOT worse players (mainly newbies) out there that have no concept of how to talk, and Neikulous' seemed to have a steady, albeit annoying, RP going on. So what? Not all elves are supposed to be flowery, gaily prancing ninnies. He went a different route and was punished for it. Wow. Genius. There were some positive character comments in the imm comments for this character and it was obvious you knew there was someone playing behind it who was familiar with the game. So you should have let him just have the benefit of the doubt.


Ugh. Okay, I know its very tight and close with all the most prevalent Imms wearing CF Members Only jackets up there in Immland, but you have to remember that its the players who are helping pay for those jackets with donations and $5 PBFs and whatever. When you alienate the people who play, you lose out on these funds altogether. By no means am I saying that you should cut everyone slack, but you Imms as a whole were complete jerks and huge hypocrites in this instance. Just.. ugh.

>You are absolutely ridiculous.

Are you high? (I am not a police officer or affiliated with law enforcement.)

>Well, if it was his character saying about his digital bottom
>in the game, that IS roleplaying. How he presented it may have
>bothered you, but seeing as how you stated that you haven't
>watched the character much, how can you pass judgment? As
>someone who has been in Outlander a LOT and seen all the sick,
>disgusting, perverted things Innis, Crackernuts, Lyristeon,
>etc. have done, why is it the Imms can be magically sanctioned
>against negative repercussions and a player can't roleplay
>that kind of thing? Tell me it doesn't happen and I'll pull
>the log out of Innis 'roleplaying' pulling out his wang in
>front of Chaisse.

Team Imm is not a homogenous collective.

I can and do pass judgement based on what I see. That's my prerogative.

Every day there's going to be some yahoo who dies and starts calling the guy who killed him a fagtron. Tell me how I'm supposed to tell the difference between that guy and a Neikulous without anything else to help me out (e.g., a role).

>I don't know about Sebeok and Amaranthe, but compared to
>Innis, Neikulous was tame. I really, really don't need to go
>more into this, do I?

Tell me where I'm Innis and I'll care. :)

>I inducted him and even I could tell that there was more
>behind this character. There are a LOT worse players (mainly
>newbies) out there that have no concept of how to talk, and
>Neikulous' seemed to have a steady, albeit annoying, RP going
>on. So what? Not all elves are supposed to be flowery, gaily
>prancing ninnies. He went a different route and was punished
>for it.

Yup. Just like I'd punish the Outlander who kept setting forests on fire on purpose.

You want to do something a little off, there's tools to help you do that.

>Wow. Genius. There were some positive character
>comments in the imm comments for this character and it was
>obvious you knew there was someone playing behind it who was
>familiar with the game. So you should have let him just have
>the benefit of the doubt.

I've liked a lot of your characters, so this isn't a personal attack.

That's one of the most ignorant things ever written on these forums.

The worst examples of people not roleplaying on CF aren't newbies who don't know any better. They're guys like Kanye who can play the game well and can put out solid RP, but either A) Think they're better than everyone else and the rules don't apply to them, B) Just get pissed and lose it at that moment or C) Just don't give a ####.

Again, if I'm going to be of the mindset that in a vacuum I should let an elf mage telling somebody (in those exact words) to shove something up their ass go, I don't understand how I'm supposed to reward or police RP at all.

>Ugh. Okay, I know its very tight and close with all the most
>prevalent Imms wearing CF Members Only jackets up there in
>Immland, but you have to remember that its the players who are
>helping pay for those jackets with donations and $5 PBFs and
>whatever. When you alienate the people who play, you lose out
>on these funds altogether. By no means am I saying that you
>should cut everyone slack, but you Imms as a whole were
>complete jerks and huge hypocrites in this instance. Just..
>ugh.

I'm all about making the players happy, but there's no making the players happy with respect to how the imms deal with RP. If we let #### go and reward less than perfect characters, people (including Vlad/Neikulous, often one of the most vocal people about it) bitch. If we crack on something that's obviously well out of archetypal RP for that roleless character with no explanation, we get... well, this.

Ain't no making you bitches happy.

So your saying just because someone has a role means that they aren't going to freak out and go ooc retarded on someone else cause they get pissed?

Nope. See two posts up where I say:

Not that having a role is carte blanche to do whatever you want

But, you know? If someone put in their role: "My character is a huge rageaholic hypocritical #### who talks mad #### at his killers that he himself could never live up to when he dies", what could I really say to half the people who do that? I mean, in some cases I could say, ok, you're roleplaying, but that's still not ok behavior for a paladin so the hammer comes down on you for that, but a lot of them I'd just have to shrug and let go.

Just because they have it in their role doesn't make it ok, I think it makes it worse just because they are using the role command as an excuse to be a prick. Albeit there are a few ways one could do it successfully and truly roleplay it.

Just because they have it in their role doesn't make it ok, I think it makes it worse just because they are using the role command as an excuse to be a prick. Albeit there are a few ways one could do it successfully and truly roleplay it.

We've certainly seen "excuse roles", and I hope that as a staff we're good about telling the difference between those and a player who's doing something legitimate. (This was a textbook "excuse role", intended only to justify the player 'roleplaying', well, himself.)

For example, let's say you write a role that says you're a coward. Now, this gives you an excuse to flee early from anyone remotely tough, abandon groupmates to die, and the like. However, a player who's really trying to do something with that role might also turn down a trip into an especially dangerous area. That kind of consistency might tell us something interesting is going on, especially if the role was done in advance, and I wouldn't call that an "excuse role".

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I speak NOTHING like Neikulous.

Thats all.

Ok, I just want to say that before someone gets happy with the ban/delete stick that I think these sorts of discussions need to happen. I know, I know, it will take away from the characters goodbye. I do not think Vlad really cares and you guys could check with him on that if you want but I think he is banned once again. The give and take discussion about what was wrong here and what was wrong there is definately needed, even if you believe it takes away from the character. It has been lacking too long and if it can be handled in an even slightly civil manner how can it not improve cf?

Immortal says "I think you did this wrong and the rest of the staff agree's, if you could maybe put a little more effort into such and such you would definately rock out as a character"

Vlad says "You guys definately need to find a different way to correct something you think is wrong, the negativity kind of ruined this character that I was enjoying, why can't it be done this way?"

Of course, if it gets heated the imms will always win because they have that power. But everyone needs to take a step back and just kind of look at why we played cf in the first place and why it was so awsome.

>Immortal says "I think you did this wrong and the rest of the
>staff agree's, if you could maybe put a little more effort
>into such and such you would definately rock out as a
>character"
>
>Vlad says "You guys definately need to find a different way to
>correct something you think is wrong, the negativity kind of
>ruined this character that I was enjoying, why can't it be
>done this way?"
>
>Of course, if it gets heated the imms will always win because
>they have that power. But everyone needs to take a step back
>and just kind of look at why we played cf in the first place
>and why it was so awsome.

You will rarely if ever find me rewarding or penalizing people for their roleplay or lack thereof. To be perfectly blunt and honest, I hate it and it's not fun for me. Everybody loves imm-teraction until it goes south for them, or they get called out, or feel they got slighted, etc. Thanks, but no thanks, I'll stick with the coding.

Then his entire RP and everything would be perfectly fine, just with a crappy Scottish accent.

I've even seen elves with that faux-Scottish dwarven accent get recognition. Is that considered tremendous roleplaying?

So what makes that reward-worthy and Neikulous gets punished with negative experience?

Neikulous wasn't a dwarf. He was an elven invoker who spoke like his hometown was Compton. I am sorry, but, when I look at all of our elven areas where a youthful elf would grow up, even if they did it on the streets, I don't see any of them being in the same concept as 'the hood'.

If it was so "over the top" tell me one phrase I used that was anything "Comptonesque". We've already established (and others will back me up) that people (including immortals fromt he Fortress) have been using "kicked in the junk" on CF for a long time. Because beyond that one phrase, there wasn't a damn thing wrong with my speech. Unless you are of the opinion that all elves need to speak in a certain way, which means they are born knowing the language and nothing they do aside from being born determines how they speak.

Also explain then, why when I emailed Innis a log of the firt incident there was no "Well we're unhappy with the way you speak" or "Well you were in the wrong" or even "Hey ####o, this ain't Compton". The only response was along the lines of "Try not to let it piss you off".

Then you can explain why, if people were so concerned about what I was saying, what I was DOING at the time was ignored? The times when it was decided that I needed poking were immediately after DOING the things I shoukd have been doing. IE defending the cabal, turning down having my gear given back in exchange for a promise to lay off of the Tribs. If thats the way you feel about things, then what you really should be saying here is "We don't care what you do, it's all about how you talk" which IMHO is crap.

You may notice the number of people saying my speech wasn't anywhere near what is being claimed by the staff. The same staff who admittedly didn't watch me much. I'm sorry but I'll take the opinion of someone who spent dozens of hours in interactions with me over some jerkhole who watched me for 5 minutes and decided my speech wasn't up to snuff, while ignoring everything I was doing.

You weren't kicked out of Outlander. You weren't titled in a negative way for it. You weren't denied because of it. You were told it was lame. I agree, that type of rp for an elven invoker is lame. If it was completely over the top, one of those things may have happened. That being said, if you were told by an imm that it was lame, and you continued to do such. Don't expect the good and fun things that come with immteraction to happen. That's where I am coming from. Everybody is trying to make it sound like we totally screwed you over. We hit you for a small negative xpadd and some history stuff. Nothing else. For the most part, aside from those things, we just ignored you because we weren't interested in promoting or rewarding it. It's really as simple as that. As for the banning stuff, it was another player who stated you were banned. I told the Imps that I read the post that stated you were banned and there were four of them about and none of them said they did it. I went to bed right after that, but, obviously you are back on.

But thats fine, you've done such an about face on so many things since getting promoted that I suspect there's some new kool-aid additive being passed around. One thing thats clear though is that you think what someone says matters more than what they are doing. THAT is whats truly lame.

Well, seeing as how I don't have access to past logs or even know if there are past logs that go back that far, I am not going to state word for word things you used. I know I didn't copy and past or log them for myself. I can only assume you are under the assumption that we think you did it all the time. If that were the case, you would have been booted, canned, denied, titled etc. It usually happened when things didn't go your way. You did it enough for it to be considered poor rp.

I do things on a character by character basis. I was the imm who got you the shield spell for Spenner, remember? I don't pay attention to who is playing who. Heck, some folks thought I ripped Palmer, who Thrak posted he played on a different forum here, for not being around much at night. I have had followers who played by the same player who thought I was great once and sucked the next time. I suppose if I wanted to waste my timing looking up things and worrying about who is who and spend less time doing the rp thing, I could...but that would bore the hell out of me and take me away from doing what I like to do and that is interact with the players.

As far as comparing me to Valg, well, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Valg does so much more for this game behind the scenes then I could ever dream of doing. I thank you for the compliment though.

After reading so many of your posts I have come to this analogy. You remind me of the guy who truly believe that the lunar landing was a fake and you have spent the rest of your life trying to prove that the government is wrong and full of conspiracies because of it. You have no facts, but, you are sure you are right. And then a few folks try to make sense of what you are saying and forcibly agree to the idea that having no facts must be the truth.

>Well, seeing as how I don't have access to past logs or even
>know if there are past logs that go back that far, I am not
>going to state word for word things you used. I know I didn't
>copy and past or log them for myself. I can only assume you
>are under the assumption that we think you did it all the
>time. If that were the case, you would have been booted,
>canned, denied, titled etc. It usually happened when things
>didn't go your way. You did it enough for it to be considered
>poor rp.

Only by the staff, it seems. However you missed my point. That point being you all were paying more attention to what I was saying, and zero attention to what I was doing.

>
>I do things on a character by character basis. I was the imm
>who got you the shield spell for Spenner, remember? I don't
>pay attention to who is playing who. Heck, some folks thought
>I ripped Palmer, who Thrak posted he played on a different
>forum here, for not being around much at night. I have had
>followers who played by the same player who thought I was
>great once and sucked the next time. I suppose if I wanted to
>waste my timing looking up things and worrying about who is
>who and spend less time doing the rp thing, I could...but that
>would bore the hell out of me and take me away from doing what
>I like to do and that is interact with the players.

I wasn't accusing you of doing anything to the character based on who the player was. In fact I never once, on either forum, implied it had anything to do with me as a player. If you thought thats what I meant, I didn't.

>
>As far as comparing me to Valg, well, you obviously have no
>idea what you are talking about. Valg does so much more for
>this game behind the scenes then I could ever dream of doing.
>I thank you for the compliment though.

What I meant was, I made several very specific points in my post, none of which you addressed in your reply.

>After reading so many of your posts I have come to this
>analogy. You remind me of the guy who truly believe that the
>lunar landing was a fake and you have spent the rest of your
>life trying to prove that the government is wrong and full of
>conspiracies because of it. You have no facts, but, you are
>sure you are right. And then a few folks try to make sense of
>what you are saying and forcibly agree to the idea that having
>no facts must be the truth.

I never said there was any conspiracy here, or that anything that happened had a thing to do with me the player. I'm not sure where you got that impression. What I have been saying is, more attention was focused on what I said than the things I was doing at the time. The times chosen for these stupid little xp gigs were, IMHO, not the right time for it. It's like giving a kid a test, and giving him a shock when he gets a right answer not because of his answer but because you don't like the color of shirt he has on. The times that were chosen for these stupid little pokes is what pissed me off far FAR more than the pokes themselves. Had I not been actively DOING the things I should have been at the times I was gigged, it wouldn't have pissed me off at all. When I do a role thats not to everyones taste, I know going in I'm going to attract at least some negative attention. I accept that. But to do things negative to me at the times that I was doing exactly what I SHOULD have been at that time (IE defending and retrieving) is what really ruined the experience for me.

Being told how to talk as an Outlander was pretty gay too. Hearing Crackernuts bitch at me like some librarian city hugging bitch about what the proper way to speak was, was BEYOND gay. It flew in the face of everything the cabal stands for. "We want you to be rugged individuals, don't take orders and don't let people push you around. But be sure not to speak in a way we don't like or we'll rap your knuckles, even if you're doing everything else right at the time".

If you can't see how lame that really is, then I don't know what more there is to say about it.

You made OOC references. References the Imms don't want in the game. Live with it, and don't do it again. I'm tired of seeing your forum handle associated with this asinine whining.

Nepenthe's main point as I read it is that having a written or observed role in no way absolves you of its consequences. In other words, if you're a gnome and you write a role about how you're a serial killer with no conscience, you don't get to complain if your Wisdom and/or alignment get adjusted to suit the actions in question. It's crucial to judge actions (which is what other players see), and things like Detect Evil should work properly with respect to your character.

In this case in particular: I don't think any of the involved Immortals (and we're talking about all Outlanders or very senior people... people who have some experience with what the cabal's domain covers) thought Neikulous was really trying to roleplay anything. All of the OOC-forum-lawyering struck me as an attempt at after-the-fact justification of his past non-roleplay.

And what happened to the character? A trivial deduction of experience and an IC lecture intended to communicate that disapproval. A better player could have done something with that wrist-slap, but this one chose to take everything to OOC forums and play the martyr.

In other threads, people always talk about wanting more immteraction. Now, it's silly to have a staff that just goes around rewarding everyone regardless of what they do. The vast majority of immteraction is positive, but at some level the staff acts as referees, not cheerleaders. Accomplishment stops being interesting or rewarding in an environment where everyone gets a reward just for showing up. The players have always responded to a merit system, and in a merit system, not everyone's a winner.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

P.S. I also strongly agree with Nep's aside that the worst roleplay is rarely from inexperienced newbies. (Beyond, say, level 3 guy who doesn't get the boundary between IC and OOC.) New players tend to come in with good intentions and a willingness to learn, which goes a long way. Infamously poor roleplay is nearly always from an experienced player who either doesn't care or thinks they walk on water.

***Ain't no making you bitches happy.***

They got threads on dios right now whining about killing kobolds and ranking in FON.

Hopefully there will be a moment in the near future where the playerbase as a whole
opts to lift up their skirts and step over the puddle themselves. What a bunch of girls.

Christ.

Hopefully there will be a moment in the near future where the playerbase as a whole opts to lift up their skirts and step over the puddle themselves.

To be fair, most of our skirt-wearing players are more mature than the males writing the threads in question. :)

Different example, same trend:

While in general I can appreciate the trend towards not full looting/saccing a kill barring extenuating circumstances, one of the consequences you now see is that people complain when anything is taken. Hero with a full set of shiny objects will get killed by some crafty dude in fine leather undies and a snow worm hat, and they will complain ad nauseum because the killer dared to take and use items that he needs.

Taking all the stuff and destroying it? Clearly only useful to cripple the guy or spite them. Feel free to complain about this, just keep it IC and not on channels like 'yell'. Yelling is just sad.

Taking certain valuable stuff and selling or trading it? Still a little rough, but rational and you can understand if they if they need the cash or goods. Maybe grumble a little, then let it go and grab a new pair of pants. Gotta use your ghost time for something.

Taking certain valuable stuff and wearing it because it's better than the goblin toy the killer was holding? Victor, meet spoils, and you know you'd do it too. No one should complain about this. Have some dignity.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

To all you container sackers out there, I swear il full loot/sac every last one of you. Talk about a complete #### move on a players part. Sure loot the hell out of a corpse you earned it, but sacing containers? That is so totally graatchonian.


Much love
Cuddly parv

>Ain't no making you bitches happy.

The playerbase is not a homogenous collective, to use your terminology. Obviously some people will agree and disagree with every judgement call that ever gets made.

It's true! Consider that statement just directed at the bitches, then. ;)

>>Ain't no making you bitches happy.
>
>The playerbase is not a homogenous collective, to use your
>terminology. Obviously some people will agree and disagree
>with every judgement call that ever gets made.

I inducted him and even I could tell that there was more behind this character. There are a LOT worse players (mainly newbies) out there that have no concept of how to talk, and Neikulous' seemed to have a steady, albeit annoying, RP going on.

Lots of people can roleplay well when:

1) They know they're being evaluated.
2) Things are going their way.

Take away either or both of those, and you separate the wheat from the chaff.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

It's easy to say "This is how it is, and I base this on a few minutes of observation", but that doesn't make it true. Sure, this is your sandbox, and you can kick people out of it who disagree with you but that doesn't make you right. It just makes you a bully.

The people who spent more than 5 minutes interacting with me, and there were more than a few, agreed that my roleplay was nothing like what is being represented by the staff. You know what? Their opinion matters a lot more to me than yours does.

Because it was the most stupid thing I have ever read for multiple reasons. Well done.

>Well, if it was his character saying about his digital bottom
>in the game, that IS roleplaying. How he presented it may have
>bothered you, but seeing as how you stated that you haven't
>watched the character much, how can you pass judgment? As
>someone who has been in Outlander a LOT and seen all the sick,
>disgusting, perverted things Innis, Crackernuts, Lyristeon,
>etc. have done, why is it the Imms can be magically sanctioned
>against negative repercussions and a player can't roleplay
>that kind of thing? Tell me it doesn't happen and I'll pull
>the log out of Innis 'roleplaying' pulling out his wang in
>front of Chaisse.

I can only speak for myself. I am a chaotic evil wiseass. My language, while not vulgar, does lead to vivid imaginations. It's a gift I have. Now, if I were an elven invoker, my language and actions would be different.

Whats the point in bothering to write roles then, if we're all suppposed to be cranked out at some factory? Why bother with descriptions, because hey, elves should all be just alike.

I remember you raiding Tribunal, getting damaged then running to Blingdenstone. I chased and slept you and subsequently killed you. You lost it at me. I always wondered why you'd be so upset at that kill. You raided my cabal (admittedly it was a retrieval attempt), I defended against you and then chased you down and killed you. Sounds kinda routine, yet you completely lost it. What was that about?

But I don't recall "totally losing it". I was ripping someone a new one who I couldn't see at the time, so you may have gotten one of my replies if you sent me a tell in the time between my death and me having enough mana to cast detect invis. Neik was fairly mouthy though, so I may have just tossed out some one liner, but I don't recall that being the case with you.

It was something along the lines of "That was such a weak and pathetic kill". It just made me think "Well what do you expect when you raid my cabal? I'm not one to give up on a chase."

I suppose all things considered though (I didn't know much about this character) but you aren't one for power gaming - which is a compliment. An invoker in Outlander is not something I think I'd enjoy.

I was mouthing off to Palmer, because the only times Neik ever saw him he was part of a tag-along. It was an IC thing. I knew damn well Palmer had a reputation for taking out whole groups, but in Neiks feral (and juvenile) mind, Palmer was afraid of him.

Outlander Invoker was actually REALLY nice, I just had no clue how to play the class at first, and died some stupendously silly deaths. I was okay with that though, I learned a lot with this character.

.

If I had rolled up a character designed to do nothing but bitch , whine and suck. I probably would have pated myself for a job well done and deleted after I died to a lvl 2 mob as well.

nt

I recalled, got incapacitated, and one of the falcons finished me.

It was bleeding or scourge or something sapping my hps, I got incapacitated, and of course falcons in the plains attack people who have bioempathy up because that makes perfect sense.

Wild creatures do attack other wild creatures. I imagine you empathised with the falcon's desire for meat, as it killed you.