Fri May 11 02:59:56 2007

At 5 o'clock AM, Day of Freedom, 18th of the Month of the Great Evil
on the Theran calendar Kubilak perished, never to return.

Race:	orc
Class:	berserker
Level:	51
Alignment:	Evil
Ethos:	Chaotic
Cabal:	None, None
Age:	51
Hours:	315

Hmmm, ok, good-byes, good-byes… What to begin with?
Oh, I know. I will say that my death sucked and I am very disappointed :( I had so many plans, still haven’t used overrun even once in PK, still had so much RP to go etc. *sigh* But oh well. I guess if you are evil with 16 wis AND short life-span, and you have to fight Fort, you are in trouble. I still think wither should be changed though. This aging thing is just plain lame.

Why this char was created on the first place?
Well, first of all, I started to get comments from Imms about myself spending too much time at one side and not seeing the game from other sides. As Empire and Tribunals have too many laws and regulations as for my taste, I decided that orc is the way to go. After all aren’t orc archenemies of Outlanders, eh?
What have I learned from this?

First of all, All the people who whine how hard it is to war Outlanders and stuff are whiners. It is DEFINITELY not THAT bad. As a person who both had insects as power, and had to face people with insects as power, I will say they are greatly overrated in the minds of hardcore Empire/Tribunal players. There ARE situations when they are deadly, but they are not that much worse then ‘the hunt’, to say. Honestly, stop whining and just play the game *chuckle*
For orc, Spirit is TWICE as easy to raid as Watcher. Yes, Spirit is annoying. But Watcher is three times as deadly. I could solo both of them pretty easily though, to be honest.

Secondly, Kubilak was considered to be a temporary char in the break while my main char (who is still alive) was dormant. But later on he appeared to be so much fun, that I decided to concentrate on him.

Thirdly, Kubilak was a challenge. I decided that if I can make anything semi-descent from orc, I can play anything in this game. I was prepared to suck, and so when it appeared I can kill ten times as many people as I die myself, that was a nice surprise really. I am not sure of my final PK score, but I guess I will have around 100 kills and 6 PC deaths. Which is a nice result for orc, I assume :P (I will have tons of mob deaths though, orcs still suck for exploration purposes :)

In general, playing this char was a blast. Chaotic evil RP is for me, heh.
I want to thank all the Imms for exp and Thrak for all the interactions.
I want to thank all the players for making this game a lot of fun. There are a way more cool people among you then complete arses, and I appreciate it.
I want to thank coders for balancing this game out. You are doing great job guys, don’t listen to whiners. It is NOT ideal, but definitely the best one I saw among all the online game I’ve ever played. And I have 10 years of experience in this area ;) (I should really quit playing, I know :(

Ok, now some comments on orcs.
They are playable. Contrary to popular opinion.
Yes, they must be one of the weakest classes around if you compare their power to other combos. But what you need to understand to play one is that they are SUPPOSED to be that way. They are cowardly bastards made from poor genetic material. They are SUPPOSED to suck. Accept it, and you’ve just made the first step towards playing a successful orc. Accepted? Then we go on!
So we suck. What can we do about it? Hmm, lets think. Right! We can choose our fights and allies! Understand it, you don’t have ideals to defend. You are cowardly bastard who has two goals in life – meat and shinies. Whenever you stayed in the fight for too long to die, you are playing the orc in the WRONG WAY! BEEP! Strike when you can, run when you must! There is no shame in running as orc. JUST DO IT when you see you can’t win. You are flexible, very very flexible. So you are stronger then I am, big deal. I will catch you unprepared then. I will backstab you, lie to you, gang you. I will do anything I can whenever I want to. So, what we have here? Your weakness is your strength now! HAR! Second step to playing successful orc is accomplished! Let’s move on.
So we are flexible. Let’s use our cowardly powers, eh? We can hide. We have village full of allies. We have slaves. We can break spines. We can demoralize. We can steal weapons and holds/shields. In fact, we have tons of tactical choices. Yes, we might not win the fight. But we can certainly make your life a hell. Use it! We’ve just made a third step!
Now. There are fights we can’t win alone. But let’s think. We are also almost unlimited in choosing potential allies. Well, of course you will hardly make a friend with Fort or Outlanders, but you can always make them fight EACH OTHER, HAR! And then come and finish the winner. Yes, Empire does not like us all that much, but we can actually play on their conflict with Fort and Scions to make them accept you at least. Etc. Etc. Etc. There are tons of way to build proper alliances and agreement, and I tried to use it to the fullest. Well, of course, you can’t be mass PKiller as high level orc, but you are not looking to be one, aren’t you, my young padavan?

I could go on with the list. But I’ve made the key points. If you follow them, your orc can be pretty successful, I assure you.

About mamlauks.
Ok, this is the best specialization among orcish ones. Why? Let’s see point by point.

Whomp: Pretty useful skill. There are tons of people out there with bash protection, and you know what? They are all considering you to be an easy prey. Why? Cause orc without bash is pretty much useless in dealing direct damage. Should we surprise them a bit! Hell yes!

Stone hands: Ok, I was wearing tons of +str gear (special thanks goes to Nuloh for his gauntlets and stuff :) so I can’t really evaluate this skill. I suspect it was useful. What annoyed me though is the fact that it does not seem to increase the weight of weapon you can dual wield. I think it should be looked at (I might be wrong here though)

Swat: This skill has a potential. Too bad I understood it too late. I could be a way more successful against stupidly annoying dextrous dagger specialists. Use it. You might be surprised how actually useful it is.

Brute force: Ok, getting five attacks with primary weapon is NICE. Not mentioning crazy damages you make. Note though, you won’t hit warriors, rangers, assassins, thieves etc. all that much. All your strikes will be parried and dodged most probably. But this skill is simply priceless against shamans, druids etc. You can literally 4-5-round class in SANCTUARY and protection. Druids will be just meat for you, heh. One note though – it does not seem to work for secondary weapon. I think it is wrong and should be looked at. After all you have to wear two 24+ pound weapons to use for both hands.

Hack: Ok, this one is PRICELESS. No-fail boneshatter+kotegaeshi on successful hack hand is just DAMN sweet. Hack legs is an excellent addition if you have time. Hack torso is damn good in raids and such. What is the trick then you might ask? 3 rounds of lag on failed attempt and 4 (!) rounds of lag on successful one. For some combos out there 4 rounds is more then enough time to break through your 1300+ hp. I am not kidding. My last death was due to the fact that I landed hack hand and got wraithed to death for 4 rounds.
What is more useful in hack? It helps you to get rid of stupid staves and bows, the bane of all orcs! Hack hand, wave staff It is so much better then staff defence. So much better.

In general, I think no mamlauk should lose challenge to anyone but another mamlauk. Their skills are much stronger then other adapts.

Ok, something that won’t get into PBF now. List of edges I had with short comments on them.

Your character has the following edges:
Strong Back: You have a strong back, more able to bear burdens.
I am a pack rat, and at last I had a char who could not carry about weight and dodge. This one made my life easier and potentially allowed for stronger bashes.

Marcher: You are a like a tireless marching golem.
Very good one, my seal of approval. I don’t think I was out of moves since I took it.

Opportunistic Carnivore: You better savage your foes with your teeth.
The last one I took. Pretty sweet minor edge. Cheap as well.

Lasher: You are dangerous with a whip.
Great one. Headbutt sucks. Just sucks. This one allows you not only fight with those damn players with bash protection but actually SEAL kills on them. I recommend this one.

Demon in the Woodpile: Your demonic heritage has begun to show.
I will post some logs where it hits in.
In general, sweet one against shamans (demonfire? hah!). Very useful against thieves and warriors (blackjack, stun, cranial etc).
The negative part is that you will attack any good-aligned communer on sight. That includes guild guards, archons and angels, paladins, shamans, both PC and NPC healers (thankfully many NPC healers are protected from it). But is it really that negative? You know, it depends… Berserkering and auto-striking shaman who is trying to rot/wither you is not that bad, after all ;) Striking archon is a valid tactical choice sometimes as well. Etc. I fact, I think this is a great edge.

Lug: You are amazingly strong for an orc.
24 str, whut?! I think the best bonus of all orcish adapts. There is much more difference between 23 and 24 str, then between 18 and 19 dex, to say.

Backbreaker: You are skilled at breaking backs.
Spinebreaker is a life saver. Nuff said. Take it if you can.

Compact Frame: You are able to bash small targets.
Took it specifically to fight Nexus and challenge Village svirfs for duels. One thing not mentioned in the helpfiles is that you miss these bashes a lot. Difference in size matters after all. But still it is pretty useful. And now to the best part of this edge. Guess what many assassins are doing when they want to fight you in martial trance? Riiiight. They reduce themselves, poor creatures :) Surprise them!

What I was planning to take further?
Well, I wanted to take Slaver, but I guess I was not meeting skill requirements. Same for Survival instincts by the way. Good luck in getting Last stand to 85% :P This skill requirement is just mean.
I was also planning to play with Flailing fallback + Pit fighter combo (may be even gaining Pit fighter through RP, see role Chapter 1) but, well, bad luck!

You can choose the following edges:
Flailing Fallback: You can learn to throw knees and elbows as you dive for cover.
Undersight: You can adapt to the lightless world below.
Battle Tested: You can learn to slumber more quickly after the excitement of combat.
Last Breath: You can learn to swim short distances when your life is on the line.
Seasoned Traveller: You can apply your considerable knowledge from your long journeys and condition your legs for faster recovery.

Ok, general comments on Chieftain position.
Nice special bonus to HP/MANA/MV, definitely unique. Well done, Team IMM!
I still think orc leaders should get quest weapons as all the other leaders *shrug*

Ok, now to goodbyes.
Hmmm, hmmm.
Fine, I admit it is hard to write them. Please, remind me of yourself, and I will write my comments. Thanks!

Just several negative comments.
Rot monkey (you know who you are)
You are the reason I think Imms should take some time and add Rot deaths/kills to statistics same as Assassination and PWK deaths. Honestly, get a life. You are freaking leader and priest. Com rot/flee/quaff teleport is NOT a way to go IMHO. If you rot, have some dignity to fight after that at least. Also, read helpfiles. Help Orc, to be specific. See something interesting in there? No? I will give you a hint. Orcs are RESISTANT TO DISEASES. And yes, it includes rot. Surprise! Your rot never got me lower then -7 con for your info. You won’t kill an orc that way. Thank you for trying!

Hmmm, anyone else? No, I think most of you were cool. Thanks.

Time to move on and I have no idea what to play now… I really hoped I have a bit more time, had no plans :( *sigh* What do you think, Imms, players?

From Ukraine with love,
Krynna, aka Kubilak, aka *still active dormant char*

P.S. I tried to activate PayPal from Ukraine. For some reason it is not accepting my Visa card and I don’t have Master one. So I would still appreciate someone buying this PBF, please. Thanks!

I am sad to see you go, but I think you should find some comfort in the fact that although you aged died early, you played your character to the fullest. I've interacted with Krynna while I had a lowbie transmuter in the outlander quite some time ago (was my first char actually) and I am surprised that you played both characters. I suppose now thinking back, it makes sense. Both had the non-flashy confidence and skills of an experienced player who did not have to waive their ego in front of others but just quitely and VERY EFFECTIVELY did their thing. Anyway good job!

From IC/RP perspective, Bawgor liked you quite a bit. Bawgor's belief is in the fire internal as well as external. He realized quite early to his own surprise that orcs' fire burns just as bright as the fire of others. He investigated such and reached his conclusion that while duergars and dwarves tamed the fire to forge metals, it was orcs that carried on that tradition (and carried such forged weapons). So my attachment to you was very IC (though I did not want to admit as a Magistrate that I liked foul smelly orcs!). Had I not pissed off the Fortress by mis-timing some of my sanctuaries on Hunsobo, I would have hung out with you more. Although I heard reports of your unlawfulness, you've helped Bawgor capture many criminals and took the fetish several times, so as far as Bawgor was concerned, you did more for the law than Chaos and was thus acceptable company.

Anyway, all around great job.

Kak dela na Ukraine? Ty v Kieve ili gde?

Man, I was avoiding becoming wanted as hard as I could. And not only because I wanted to have Tribunals as allies against Outlanders, but also specifically because I liked to travel with you. You doing very good job as healer, and I bet you will know a hell lot of things after this char and will be able to play by your own very effectively.

As for IC things, I was pretty chaotic, I hope. I was breaking laws A TON, but only when there was noone around to see it and punish me. Pretty viable decision for cowardly orc, if you ask me ;)

P.S. A dela v Kieve prekrasno. Vesna odnako :)

I really liked you. I liked the fact that when we were lvl 20 or so when we fought you didn't full sack my stuff because you said I gave you a good fight. You were one tough orc. I wish I had fought you more while we grew up, but I'm very new to PK and knew I would just get my ass handed to me. I'd run and hide whenever I saw you.

Great character, I hope someone gets your pbf so I can read your role and whatnot.

Well, I am sorry for being a bit paranoid during the fights with you, but as Krynna I was pwning orcs left and right, with horde, in cities etc. So I was kinda very careful with rangers. At first :) Later on I found out that with correct tactical choice and proper timing I can fight them even in wilderness, so I hope I gave you some good fights.

Well fought, and keep learning. You can do better, just try harder!

Oh well. I was hoping to get up near hero to tear around with you. Sucks that you're gone. Pretty slim pickings on which orc can make a name for themselves like you did. Whoever it is, Pen help!

Roll another one.

P

In fact, I had such a projects some time ago (evil healer, follower of Thrak :) ) but after getting to level 30 I realised there are no semi-descent orcs for me to run around with, and, in addition, changes to evil healer went in, so I gave up. But the idea is very good, I admit it.

I would probably consider creating another orc if I had desire to spend 60-70 more hours more to spam skills up, but I don't :( In addition, all those warrior edges coming in in combination with evade (improved evade, ability to block fallback, ability to avoid bashes etc) are looking realy arsish towards orcs. Without effective fallback and bash orcs have no chances against warriors, sadly. So I think I will pass.

But hey! there is always a chance for another masochist joining in ;)

Keep on rolling, Penelope, and good luck! you will need it.

I was lucky to see a couple of you burly orcs first-hand. Kubilak was top notch both in RP and in his murderous skills. A well RP'd Orc makes me laugh and you sure did that. Though Nihk didn't like traveling with others and being a little pocket haste buddy he was always happy to join up with Kubilak. I definitely liked the notion of a dark mage and an Orc running around causing some havoc. And you didn't let me down.

Getting the Orb and watching the fallout of Fortress folks try and retrieve was pretty fun always. Good times. Oh, and hope you put that gold to good use!

Well done on the showing, man. I think it's safe to say that Orcs are indeed playable.

And as a side note, I agree 100% that the withering of age thing is just crap. I simply avoided shamans altogether toward the end because I knew one commune and my character could be insta-dust. And the game lost a good character in Kubilak way too early because of it.

Oh I almost forgot, you probably never seen an old 80's sitcom called Parker Lewis Can't Lose? I pictured in my head Kubilak == Kubiak. Google it or something ;-).

I enjoyed running with you as well. Isn't it nice to have backup as orc, eh? ;) And I will check this Kubiak thing.

... well. From the point where you posted the logs on qhcf it was blatantly obvious it was Krynnas player. I'm not going to say narcissism but you are really happy about yourself and your comments about it really shine through. No other play does that to that extent.

That being said Kubilak pulled obliterates on EACH OF HIS HITS on a regular target. that is sick and made you a valuable ally to Haratzi.

Odd note, I think you ambushed me as Krynna on Kiadana where I eluded you at some point? I'm sure we fought a few times regardless. If I was as secure in the invoker role then as I am now it could have gotten real interesting ...

Regardless, you truly have an affinity for pk and gear. Given that, perhaps an AP would be recommended to play? Maybe in Scion? We have the best cabal powers after all ...

Good luck and I have no doubts I'll see you in your next incarnation.

You will see my next incarnation for sure. But I am not sure I am ready to play anti-paladin. You just need to be COMPLETELY and DISGUSTINGLY paranoid to play it. I am not sure if it is my styly. I don't take stupid risks, but I like reasonable risk. It makes my blood boil.

The whole idea of gathering souls for 300 hours and then lose them in one fight is a bit too crazy for me, hmm. But I will definately consider it one day.

In general, considering I've played only 4 chars so far, my gear knowledge is reasonable. But definately not all that great as you might think. Those damages you saw, they come from orcish skill - bully. Great skill, mind it ;)

See you on the fields, keep trucking!

An ap can be pretty deadly without charges, in the right situations.

Best orc I have seen in a few years and far and away the best killer we have had. I enjoyed watching you and am glad you enjoyed the limited interactions. Thanks for truly showing that orcs can be a power at the higher levels.

I really adore how you play orcish god. Well done, both evil and reasonable.

Just one request to you in the name of all orcs - be more generous to us! Those people who play high level orcs are WILLINGLY accepting the fact they will have very hard time against many combos. That they will spend long-long-long hours spamming skills. That they will be withered and age-die young ;) . That they will be hunted rentlessly by power gamers who just want to get an easy kill (air/offense shifters, antipaladins with huge weapons etc.) Etc. Etc. Etc.

Playing an orc is kind of masochistic thing to do, to be honest. So if you wish to see more orcs, just throw them bones sometimes. I don't know - free edges, some quest skills, leader weapons, stuff like that. There is nothing like knowing that your effort is being appreciated.

Just my two cents.

Keep rockin'.

I really enjoyed our fights and our verbal jousting. I look forward to that evil thief you will be playing next, and I'll be thankful that you won't have an orc army when you do. GLOYN.

which I couldn't while I was concentrated on Kubilak, I am even more impressed, man. So many self-caused limitations... I would give up, honestly. But you are rocking. Impressive, impressive. You deserve everything you have.

Sadly, your combo is the strongest one against orcs. High dex dagger spec with flow of shadows AND sunrise are almost impossible to beat as an orc. The only hope is to disarm dagger, but you won't do it with leader weapon. So honestly, our fights were pretty one sided. I did my best, but sooner or later you make a mistake :)

Keep on rocking!

It was fun. For some reason I had a feeling you would be a long term orc early in your career and so I was a lot more willing to help you. Later it was always nice to know you were willing to raid for items and you were a beast when it came to laying out the damage.

Yeh was a tough'n an' ah'm glad tuh see yeh's arse on deh pile o' rottin' carcasses. Ah donnae rememba, but ah t'ink ah witha'd yeh once or twice so HAR! Deh Light be doin' it part tuh rid deh lands o' yeh stench. Mehbe yeh fargin' find deh Light down dur in 'ell an' comes back wif a fargin' ally ratha den a sack o' dung heathen.

Was fun fighting you; and also when we somehow came on friendlier terms later... Even though I never got to kick your ass in retalitation to that DP you gave me, like I promised to.

Age : middle-aged, 51 years old (315 hours)

<905(68%)hp 508(100%)mn 1110(100%)mv (10_AM (Day)-new) {standing}
Your aging body finally gives out on you.
You turn into a ghost for an hour.

You can quit at anytime to speed the process along.
As your arms slide out of the bracers of Archery, you feel your magical archery expertise fade away.
You feel the spirit of the Wolf leave you.

Well, I was not ready to die that fast. Hoped to get at least 500 hours or something...

So I will need time to compose my goodbyes (I think I will have time to write them till the end of the day)

For those who wondered though, Krynna walked out of the forest at last!

Crap. I so wanted to test myself against you. I had just finished fighting Adobel when you came along, so wasn't really prepared. I have something in my role in regards to orcs and you were one of the main reasons I wrote it. Now I am going to kick myself for not trying to summon and wither you. Well done and keep them awesome characters coming.

>Well, I was not ready to die that fast. Hoped to get at least
>500 hours or something...

Y'remember when you posted on the forums, like "OMG Light of Heaven is schooling me, why is this so tough?" and I said something along the lines of, while your gearing strategy clearly is steamrolling some people, it's got some downsides and Light of Heaven schooling you is one of them?

This would be the other one. Man, sometimes you needed to warcry just to get your spell save to not be a positive number... and then you didn't, and kept fighting a variety of shamans that you let wither you. :(

Overall, pretty tough and well played. Nice job.

I had my saves on Heavily protected in score with warcry on, I believe. Which was not that bad for orc IMHO. Of course, wraith, damnation, and orcish int/wis were making them a way worse but there is no way I could help it :P, you know. In general I've never had problems with my saves. I just wasn't giving people enough time to spell me down ;)

Now correct me if I am wrong, but you want to say that wither affect is NOT shown in score after it lands? I mean I thought I will see this age loss in score, hmm.
In total, I ate three withers. Two of which were bugged and fixed later on as far as I know (you know, wither with -dex AND aging affect). I still think wither should be looked at. Destroying fun like that is not right. I could do A HELL more with this char. I had new role chapter in progress, had some thought on enhancing clan/cabal policies, was planning to RP for some perks etc. And then bah! I die with 300 hours... That's just... unfair :P

Ok, I can't write much right now, I have work to do, will make my comments later.

It lowers the age you are going to croak at (which isn't something you see in your score). So if you get whithered for twenty years, you won't see your age go from 62 to 82, but you will age die 20 years sooner

~

It does reflect the actual age. Wither doesn't warp you ahead in years. It takes them away from the back. He was still 51 years old. He just didn't have the usual 75 some odd years an orc would normally live.

Looks like his score still said middle age, which is what (i think?) surprised him when he died.

Keep on rockin, Imp!

I am not sure if I would want it there. Unexplained deaths, such as people dying before their time, are part of the reality factor. You don't know when you are going to age die, sometimes, it just happens. It may not even be a physical thing that you see or find. I look at it this way. If Jerry Garcia had the foresight that maybe, just maybe, taking less drugs might extend his life he might still be alive today. If Kubilak saw what that wither was doing to him, maybe, just maybe, he would have worn more save and less damage gear and he might still be alive today. Both died before their time, but, very few knew it was going to happen when it did.

nt

You guys might want to consider realism versus pissing off players so bad they quit when a character they spent tons of time on suddenly dies 200-300 hours early.

So they quit when they realize they have 50 hours left instead of 250? Really, what's the difference? If someone is going to get pissed because they lost some years due to wither, they need to figure out what they are wearing that is wrong. Losing years due to wither is extremely rare and easily countered after the first time. Whether the player wishes to take the hint or not is totally up to them.

I wonder why wither even has the -age affect.

I can't see how this furthers RP, PK or the fun of the people involved.

It doesn't further RP since the character that gets hit has no idea when they will age die to begin with, nor does it make you any older so you cannot RP a sudden age change.

I don't see it furthering PK as the affect does not matter for the current fight. What I mean, assuming the affected character does not fall over dead due to age death in the space of the current PK fight then it really does not further PK. There is a long term affect by age dying someone early, but since most people delete before 200 hours I don't see that as a very reliable tactic.

My feeling on it is that when the -age affect matters, as in this characters life, its result is only a bad experience for the player involved, that is the one that has age died. Thus, it seems like a strange affect to have on an otherwise very good commune.

Well just my opinion and I am sure I am missing something.

PS please excuse any misuse of affect/effect, I'm tired today :p

If wither aging is working as designed, then you might want to consider revising the helpfile. Because the helpfile clearly and expressly states that the supplication is causing -permanent aging-. This is a different animal from cutting short the strings of fate and shortening the character's ultimate lifespan - without aging the character at all. If you changed the helpfile so it reflects your opinion of what wither is actually doing, I think it would do alot to alleviate confusion.

Also, re: the aging effect. What ORB is saying, and I'm not sure you're recognizing, is that most "throw away" characters delete by the time they hit 250 hours. Hell, that's being generous. Most delete by the time they hit 200 hours. Wither age doesn't kill a char until ~300. What this means is that the ONLY characters affected by wither age are the ones that players pour the most time/creativity/energy into because they want the characters to stick around for a few hundred hours. So wither is basically penalizing the best played characters with the most effort put into them. Considering that, is it really helpful to have the age effect in the first place?

I'm in ORB's camp because I had a character that I really liked, who fought too many shamans, and age died at like 300 hours, and it sucked ass. I'll never play a non-hiding arial again after that.

It is permanent aging. Aging is permanent. That doesn't mean you get a crystal ball and get to see when you are going to age die, nor, does it mean that you time warp ahead that many years. The years are the same no matter what. I understand what ORB is saying and what you all are meaning. Kubilak did not age jump to 75 or so years. He was still 51 years old.

As for the helpfile being wrong, it isn't. The character is aged by several years, it doesn't mean he is automatically going to "be" older. If 51 game time years have passed for the character, that is how old the character is going to be. Even if he is withered for losing 25 years of his life.

The affect of wither is there for a reason. There has to be a balance between pure damage characters and characters who have to protect themselves from other outside sources. Kubilak was a pure damage with little to no saves orc. He was a beast while he was alive. He just got hit by one of those balances that keeps all orcs from being like him.

Ok so maybe the hours don't change but if a character is AGED shouldn't the age indicator young, mature, middle-aged, old, etc reflect that? I guess that's what we aren't understanding? I know when my arial age died I was only Mature.
So Wither is the grand balancer of no save vs spell vs damage? Not sleep, plague, and a million other maledicting spells and communes or damaging spells? Just seems pretty lame having a power that specifically ####s over non-throw away characters. Also with Skryth I wasn't pure damage, in fact because I had to fight so many imperial shamans I started gearing for saves and strength alot more so I wouldn't keep dropping my weapons. But when you are forced to fight shamans all the time and all they do is spam wither, even with good saves as an arial your basically screwed. So what do I do then, throw my roleplay out the window and say as Harbinger I'm not going to raid because the imperial shamans keep spammin wither on me or have a character I put tons of effort in die at 169 hours or so?

P.S. I'll stop brining it up, but until it's happened to you I don't think you'll get how fustrating it is.

>Ok so maybe the hours don't change but if a character is AGED
>shouldn't the age indicator young, mature, middle-aged, old,
>etc reflect that? I guess that's what we aren't understanding?
>I know when my arial age died I was only Mature.

No. I do not think it should be changed. Have you met anyone who dropped dead of a heart attack at age 40 who looked like they were 40? That's the point I am trying to get across. You can age die without looking old.

>So Wither is the grand balancer of no save vs spell vs damage? Not sleep, plague, and a million other maledicting spells and communes or damaging spells? Just seems pretty lame having a power that specifically ####s over non-throw away characters. Also with Skryth I wasn't pure damage, in fact because I had to fight so many imperial shamans I started gearing for saves and strength alot more so I wouldn't keep dropping my weapons. But when you are forced to fight shamans all the time and all they do is spam wither, even with good saves as an arial your basically screwed. So what do I do then, throw my roleplay out the window and say as Harbinger I'm not going to raid because the imperial shamans keep spammin wither on me or have a character I put tons of effort in die at 169 hours or so?

No. It is one of the many things that balances out the guy with the "single" aspect of a character. Kubilak was a pure damage output type of character and his pk record shows it. Wither is a supplication that requires a couple of things to happen for the age affect to hit. Bad saves and bad luck (Luck as in RNG, not stat). Wither is not going to end an elf's life the way it will a human/arial/orc. Kubilak died looking like a middle-aged orc. Not an old, decrepit orc.

if it doesnt shave the years off from the future... It doesnt make you age in apperance.. and keeps how old you are at the present time.. then what is it doing?

Until this last post I assumed the impressions that you didnt physically get older in age.. but rather you start to shrival and such. Start actually appearing older than you truely are. But you just threw that idea out the window. WHAT ARE YOU SAYING HAPPENS?

It takes years off of your life without actually physically aging you. If I smoke a cigarette I don't get three birthdays a year, I still only get one. BUT, I will probably die earlier than I would have if I had not had those cigarettes.

I could have sworn smoking physically harms you. If you were to examine your lungs you would see it. Physical evidence you can even feel, likely. They said it doesnt take years off your life...that is AGES you somehow without evidence or feeling.

All age death in CF is due to heart attacks. Wither has the effect of putting an extra two layers of gunk in your arteries. You can't see it, but you feel a little crappier, and all of a sudden one day, BANG heart attack and you're dead.

>No. I do not think it should be changed. Have you met anyone
>who dropped dead of a heart attack at age 40 who looked like
>they were 40? That's the point I am trying to get across.
>You can age die without looking old.
>

Not in CF I haven't. In CF you age die at old age at the end of a long life, wither is one of the very few ways you can AGE die prematurely. Trying to make it sound like you died early due to natural causes, i.e. a heart attack does not make sense in the realm of CF and the use of the wither commune. Seriously, if you want to make that argument then random permanent natural cause deaths should be implemented.

>No. It is one of the many things that balances out the guy
>with the "single" aspect of a character. Kubilak was a pure
>damage output type of character and his pk record shows it.
>Wither is a supplication that requires a couple of things to
>happen for the age affect to hit. Bad saves and bad luck
>(Luck as in RNG, not stat). Wither is not going to end an
>elf's life the way it will a human/arial/orc. Kubilak died
>looking like a middle-aged orc. Not an old, decrepit orc.

I feel it is a horrible balancer. I am guessing the number of characters who have age died due to wither is a small number, no more then a couple dozen if that many. So its effect on game balance considering the thousands of characters played and who have been affected by wither (but not age died) over the years have not had any consquences. That is they deleted or con died before the "game balance" effect of wither could even come into play. So what is it actually doing to balance anything? Nothing.

At the VERY least the helpfile should be rewritten it clearly states the victim is permanetly aged, the definition of AGED is not in question but obviously you don't understand it.

This is from a log of Kubilak getting withered.

<924(90%)hp 166(43%)mn 359(49%)mv (12_AM -waning) {standing
You yell 'Die, Thoric, you sorcerous dog!'
Thoric narrows his eyes and glares in your direction.
You can no longer find the strength to wield the clawed club of skull-bone.
You can no longer find the strength to wield the Wand of Orcus.
You are wracked with pain as Thoric withers your flesh!
Thoric's withering rips away years of your life!
Thoric's withering *** DEVASTATES *** you!
Thoric has some small but disgusting cuts.

>At the VERY least the helpfile should be rewritten it clearly states the victim is permanetly aged, the definition of AGED is not in question but obviously you don't understand it.

Third line from the bottom, the victim knows he is permanently aged. It doesn't say he gets older. It states that it rips years away from his life. I obviously understand it just fine.

From the helpfile.
Level(0) WITHER
Syntax: commune wither <victim>

This horrific malediction attempts to wither the target, causing
extreme strength loss. There is also a chance of the victim
being permanently aged several years if this supplication is
successful.

>It is permanent aging.
>The affect of wither is there for a reason. There has to be a
>balance between pure damage characters and characters who have
>to protect themselves from other outside sources. Kubilak was
>a pure damage with little to no saves orc. He was a beast
>while he was alive. He just got hit by one of those balances
>that keeps all orcs from being like him.

I think it sucks we have something like this in CF.
And it is easy to abuse (now when we know all about it).

Kubilak mentioned rot-monkey. How about wither-monkey?
What about if say Gromkonk would repeately wither Hunsobo to make him permanently gone?
With enough tries it will go through even moderate saves.

Motion to remove aging affect of wither got my vote.

>Kubilak mentioned rot-monkey. How about wither-monkey?
>What about if say Gromkonk would repeately wither Hunsobo to
>make him permanently gone?
>With enough tries it will go through even moderate saves.

I don't really see this as true. I've been withered hundreds of times over the years as a variety of PCs, and I've never been aged by it.

I think it sucks we have something like this in CF.
And it is easy to abuse (now when we know all about it).

This wasn't exactly obscure. It's in the helpfile, and Wither has worked this way for a decade or more.

What about if say Gromkonk would repeately wither Hunsobo to make him permanently gone?
With enough tries it will go through even moderate saves.

Knowing how the supplication works, good luck with that.

If your saves aren't horrible, it's extremely unlikely. It's one of many reasons why the Kubilak strategy, while good for some things, isn't optimal in all cases.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

It seems like all of you guys are imagining like I had +100 saves or something. While actually in my Score without warcry I had saves vs. spells as "Protected" and with warcry as "Well protected" (I am 100% positive about it). I was actually wearing some pieces that were adding -15 saves FYI, for example.

So, what EXACTLY was wrong with my saves? Was it orcish INT and WIS screwing me that bad? Or something else?

As I always assumed that "Well protected" is pretty descent in save department. And with my other char, who is still alive so I can't name it, but she is of smart race, "Well protected" seems to be more then enough.

I mean is it necessary for orc to have "Divinely protected" not to get withered?

A bit of clarification for all the orc players here?

Around the times I saw you get withered and lose age, you were circa +0 for saves. Let's say within +5/-5.

Later in life, you did carry something along the lines of well protected or better, and you didn't lose any more age.

>Third line from the bottom, the victim knows he is permanently
>aged. It doesn't say he gets older. It states that it rips
>years away from his life. I obviously understand it just
>fine.
>

No I really don't think you do. The question here is over the use of the word "aged". I would suggest reading the dictionary definition sometime. But, to further my argument I provide one, this is a rather normal, conventional, definition of the word aged.

"The length of time during which a being or thing has existed; length of life or existence to the time spoken of or referred to."*

Now, you don't want us to think of wither as moving someone forward in time, i.e. aging them or in fact having anything to do with time at all. The way you look at it, wither reduces the potential length of the victims life, that is not being aged. The victim ultimately remains the same age they just die early.


>From the helpfile.
>Level(0) WITHER
>Syntax: commune wither <victim>
>
>This horrific malediction attempts to wither the target,
>causing
>extreme strength loss. There is also a chance of the victim
>being permanently aged several years if this supplication is
>successful.

I would reword the helpfile as it stands it is confusing at the very least.

* Definition is from dictionary.com but was consistent with my desk copy of the oxford english diction, and the merriam-webster online dictionary. Additional entries tended to go into greater precision
in regards to aging, marking ones age, or being "aged" as in old. I could not find a single mention remotely close to something being "aged" but showing no signs of age, or not dealing with a length of time.

The help file is fine. Anyone with half a brain should be able to work it out. Go find something else to bitch about. Some people are just wankers.

If you're gonna refer to a dictionary, atleast do it right and don't just take the first definition you see. The helpfile refers to transitive verb age, not to a noun. Which gives, from the dictionary:


v. aged, ag·ing, ag·es

v. tr.

1. To cause to become old.

But even that probably needs some clarification. It doesn't mean that it causes you to have existed for a longer period of time. It means that, in the case of milk, it will get sour in a shorter period of time. In the case of humans, you get wrinkles sooner and you die sooner. The only thing that should change game-mechanics wise or helpfile wise is that you should enter the states of middle-aged/mature/old in a fewer number of years. But that would make the aging aspect of wither even better, so we don't want that.

Sorry, you got outanaliced.

>The only thing that should
>change game-mechanics wise or helpfile wise is that you should
>enter the states of middle-aged/mature/old in a fewer number
>of years. But that would make the aging aspect of wither even
>better, so we don't want that.
>


This is exactly the change I wanted (or a change to the helpfile so it doesn't say "aging"). But you're right, that change WOULD make wither better. Thanks.

The helpfile should be changed to work with the current implementation. Instead of aging it should be reflect the reduced life span of an individual.

Maybe you missed it but that is not what Lyristeon is stating at all, there is nothing to do with aging going on at all in the current rationalization put forth.

You could for example cause milk to "age" faster by leaving it on the table instead of keeping it chilled. This accelerates the aging process, wither does not do this. If milk aged as if it were afflicted by the wither commune it would be perfectly fine up to a given point then suddenly spoil unexpectedly but in reality it slowly spoils on the table getting progressively worse just at an accelerated rate from what it would experience if kept in a chilled environment. This is aging as defined in your definition, to cause to become old but this is not what is happening in regards to wither.

The problem is the current implementation of wither and helpfile do not accurately reflect what is occuring. I would prefer to see that the age state of the afflicted is changed it makes more sense and would not lead to surprise early deaths.