Tue Nov 29 17:32:17 2005

At 4 o'clock PM, Day of Deception, 16th of the Month of the Ancient Darkness
on the Theran calendar Tac perished, never to return.

Race:	fire
Class:	warrior
Level:	49
Alignment:	Evil
Ethos:	Chaotic
Cabal:	OUTLANDER, the Outlanders of Thar-Eris
Age:	191
Hours:	147

Well, we met a grand total of three times, so its not like we had a lot of history or interactions. I am pleased that you got nightreaver, if only for the fact that it was my ticket in at a frustrating level 44 after having applied at level 25.

I guess my playing times just don't mesh that much with the hours where things happen.

I agree with some of your sentiments. An evil warrior in outlander can be an exercise in frustration/futility. I have been saved by the rage deletion code or whatever it is called a few times now ;-) And I guess I will hang in there a while longer. I hope you have more fun with your next.

Actually, I very much got the "throwaway character" vibe (to use your words), as well as the "I hate being an Outlander, it sucks" vibe, which is why I removed you as Nightreaver, and why I did so without any jazz. (I was not the same person who made you Nightreaver).

Oh and the plague was utterly unrelated to your ungranting. No idea where it came from, didn't even check, but it wasn't from me.

That said, you were a pretty solid combatant. I'm not saying all your criticisms are without merit, but I wish you could have gotten into the spirit more and not let everything piss you off so damned much. :P

I actually enjoyed the rp aspects and just the general feel of the cabal. What I hated, was being so crippled (see The Ugly for examples) that I felt like I couldn't put up the kind of fight I expect from myself. I'm not saying Tac should have been a pk god, but had I not been an Outlander, I certainly would have died a lot less and probably killed a bit more. I was in no way pissed about being removed from being Nightreaver, really, it took the burden of playing the character just so there was a leader away.

As for the plague... unless the midnight dragon plagues, some imm felt it necessary to plague me, and I've never noticed that dragon plaguing before.

I tried to stay calm, and I'd say that given certain situations where I was getting ganked/full looted and hunted mercilessly by people who had nothing better to do (but weren't high on Tac's priority list) that I did pretty good in most situations. There were certainly a couple of times where I was livid, but that'll happen when you've just been killed by special guards for the 3rd time in a row when all you are trying to do is get your #### from a enemy cabals pit. Side note: Being flaggable as a ghost is stupid. Make them wait till you unghost to serve the warrant. They have to wait in other situations, why shouldn't you have protection as a ghost?

No one who is serious about pking is going to get into the spirit of a cabal that removes there ability to accomplish said pking without adding an unreasonable amount of hassle. Or at least not in my opinion. There are certainly people who are more about rp but also happen to be very skilled pkers that might be able to make fulfilling Outlander characters, but as for me, if I ever make a Outlander-type character again, I'll just go uncabaled and undoubtable be more successful.

I was around at the time and I will guarantee you that an imm did not plague you.

Evil outlander's a curious thing to balance. It's weaker than most caballed characters, but it also has less restrictions (in some important ways, if not others) than most other caballed characters. I'm not going to tell you it's the best game in town, but I think it's better than you give it credit for.

unless the midnight dragon plagues...

It does plague people occasionally.

Edit: The meat of this rant is this. I cannot imagine a single race/class combo that wouldn't be more deadly and more survivable as a non outlander. Feel free to suggest otherwise and I will shoot your suggestions down.

Sometime... I dunno maybe 3 or 4 weeks ago, my Tac experiences prompted me to write up a Top Ten Reasons To NOT Play An Outlander.... now I think it's a testament to just how out of whack they are that I would do something so fundamentally unlazy, but I'll list them here anyway, so everyone can tell me how I just don't know what I'm doing. BTW there isn't really any order here. Also, it will be full of sarcasm and "vitrol".

1) Lack of available basic preps.

See my thread in which Kastellyn and I go back and forth and he basically says... gee that's a good list of basic preps, and no, no I can't see how to gather those efficiently as an Outlander.

2) Death Recovery

Let me walk you through "worst case scenario" death scene with Tac. You die in the Spire during a raid. ####. Well lets go back and check to see if your corpse is empty... Of course it is... thanks to the portable looting machines that are special guards (personally I haven't found them to have any other discernable purpose). But you've intruded into the Spire, so now you're wanted... while still a ghost. SO.. you're naked (and wanted), outfitting from your guild isn't exactly "Outlander Acceptable Behavior" (tm) so you head out. Remember how you would normally hit your bank account and withdraw some of that rainy day cash to get some basic preps? Yea forget about that.... you got to gather everything from scratch. Enter hours of regathering gear/preps/etc.... Now you get to play again... yay!

3) Your powers are pointless at best

Let's look at a rundown:

Deadfall: Can't do it while chamo'd

Harvest: 5 rounds of standing around unchamo'd for some food (it might be 3 rounds) thanks, but I think I'll just go buy some berry pies.

Subvert: I can't imagine a situation where this isn't the worst thing I can do with three rounds while attempting to attack a Trib, but hey, I never bothered to try it.... Cause umm.... I can't imagine a worse thing to do with my first three rounds?

Ignite: This is great, except for the fact that it has a short timer and is a crime.... So sure you can get an extra +20 hit dam, so long as you use it every 8 hours and don't use it in a protected area (so that you don't get flagged)

Windwalk: Ahh... the nicest power there is. Who needs flight potions when you have windwalk? Well unless you want to fight in a city... you know... where your enemies are. Granted it's great in a utility for the lazy sort of way, but quite frankly, I'd rather have flight potions.

Vandalize: This power is so stupid. You can get maybe one potion, from an out of the way shop, and close it down for long enough that you had better get a DAMN good use outta that one potion you got. RP wise, it makes sense, game wise, it's great... for me to poop on.

Chameleon: Ahhh the Outlander uber power that evens out everything else. YOU CAN'T MOVE. I'm sure everyone knows this, but unless you plan on sitting in one place for a very very long time in order to trap someone... this is really only useful for running away (provided you have the fetish). I'd rather have lots of teleport potions personnally, but maybe that's just because you can't stop teleporting with faerie fire... or fog... or bioluminescence... or mark of the prey... or piercing gaze... or any area spell, or any other of the numerous ways to make some who is camo'd not camo'd anymore.

4) Sequestor: Without outlanders having insect call, I don't get how this power makes any sense. It doesn't take a genius to make a trigger to manacle the wanted (as I'm sure at least one spireling has) and after that, you get a short term no transportation effect. Yay for tribunals getting kills they have no business getting.

5) Tribs don't have power outside the cities: Of course... they don't lose any power with the scales gone either.... so why ever leave? Eventually they have enough numbers to garuntee any retreival will be successful, and so they just sit there... in the city. I won't be fearing any Outlanders in the wilds now that I've played one, but I'm pretty sure I'll still avoid being wanted if I can... Parity?

6) No Healers: Tac got in trouble for bartering with town healers to heal so he could retreive. That puts your list of available healer mobs roughly equal with those of a Rager. Have fun with that.

7) Any raid up the Spire, and any spireling is one recall potion, and one trib spire from being there to make your life miserable. Outlanders? If they aren't already there, you'll probably have your item before they get there. After all it isn't like there are any recall points close by, and they're going to have to run the rest of the way.

8) Gray Taint: This is just plain uneccessary. So you mistakenly wore a silver dragon necklace, or a raft from galadon. Welcome to 15 minutes of powers not working and stupidly bad regen rates.

9) Race/Class restrictions: I could go on about this for a very long time, but suffice to say, you have zero access to the four most deadly/powerful classes (necros, ap's, paladins, conjies). Zero, or near zero access to detect hidden (thieves/assassins/duergar). And the race class combinations you do allow are hamstrung by the other cabal restrictions. What were you thinking?

10) Stupid Outlander-friendly preps have stupid ass side effects. Seriously... CALM GOT ME KILLED. Why is it there?

11) This one is thrown in specifically for Rehny, and because I think it's stupid for at least the evil branch of the Outlander, but could be applied across the board. Wilderness time... Why? For what purpose? If your enemies won't leave the city, why in god's name would you sit in the woods? How does this make sense?

That's my little tirade for today. I already had this stuff written down, so I had to post it... try to leave it up for a little while Valg... it is my death thread, and I put in more effort than most into an Outlander character that was insanely frustrating.

I agree with most of your sentiments. An evil warrior in outlander is severly handicapped. You will almost surely do better in a PK sense as a noncaballed. Retrieving is a major pain and raiding is usually out of the question unless the odds are heavily in your favor.

However, the RP possibilities are great and you do have a large freedom in what you can do (Obviously only in some ways, the no group restrictions are close to ridiculous for instance).

Ironically the evil outlander powers are much less suited to PK than the good and neutral ones. I suppose that is to discourage bully types to make outlanders.

A few comments about your points follow.

>1) Lack of available basic preps.

I am so with you on this one. Fly is incredibly hard to get. The others are a hassle. I guess this is for those who like a 'challenge'.

The real problem is that you can't gather basic preps right after a death. Normally you would run to the bank and then head to Udgaard to get teleport, recall, flight, cure blind, cure plague, cure poison. That's just one stop and leaves you plenty of time to go get gear while still a ghost. As an outlander you will have to decide whether to get one teleport potion and a few pieces of gear or just get basic gear.

>Subvert: I can't imagine a situation where this isn't the
>worst thing I can do with three rounds while attempting to
>attack a Trib, but hey, I never bothered to try it.... Cause
>umm.... I can't imagine a worse thing to do with my first
>three rounds?

Our playing styles may differ, but I think it can be a good move against say a healer. I used it against whatever the evil healer provost was called. But it seems to have a poor success rate, so yes, it is something of a gamble.

Also it can be used out of PK. Personally, I like the echoes of the subverted guards...but of course that won't win you many PKs

>Ignite: This is great, except for the fact that it has a
>short timer and is a crime.... So sure you can get an extra
>+20 hit dam, so long as you use it every 8 hours and don't use
>it in a protected area (so that you don't get flagged)

I like this for the flash effect, but I agree completely that it won't in itself win you any fights.

>Windwalk: Ahh... the nicest power there is. Who needs flight
>potions when you have windwalk? Well unless you want to fight
>in a city... you know... where your enemies are. Granted it's
>great in a utility for the lazy sort of way, but quite
>frankly, I'd rather have flight potions.

The ability to move with low cost in wilderness is great in my opinion and can win you fights. But of course you need someone to fight in the wilderness in the first place.

>Vandalize: This power is so stupid. You can get maybe one
>potion, from an out of the way shop, and close it down for
>long enough that you had better get a DAMN good use outta that
>one potion you got. RP wise, it makes sense, game wise, it's
>great... for me to poop on.

I think they upped the effect on this one so you can actually get more than one potion ;-) But it has very little success rate, so it won't be a good way to stock up on say recall and fly potions.

>Chameleon:

The ability to take a break is valuable. But I am rather impatient myself so I would never sit chamoed for long. Two minutes would usually be my maximum.

>Tribunals and their powers

I have argued about this earlier. I will merely rehash my opinion as:
Tribunal is fine. The problem is that you have a cabal that is obliged to fight them/being wanted.

>6) No Healers: Tac got in trouble for bartering with town
>healers to heal so he could retreive.

This is a _major_ handicap. It sure would be nice with some more wilderness healers around the map. (Yes, I know that there are some out there already).

>7) Any raid up the Spire, and any spireling is one recall
>potion, and one trib spire from being there to make your life
>miserable. Outlanders? If they aren't already there, you'll
>probably have your item before they get there. After all it
>isn't like there are any recall points close by, and they're
>going to have to run the rest of the way.

A good point.

>8) Gray Taint: This is just plain uneccessary. So you
>mistakenly wore a silver dragon necklace, or a raft from
>galadon. Welcome to 15 minutes of powers not working and
>stupidly bad regen rates.

Uhm, get real. How hard is it to avoid something with a gray taint flag?

>9) Race/Class restrictions:

Yes, you are really shafted as an evil outlander, both in getting xp and support. You might get lucky and have some neutral mages or a healer, but don't count on it.

>10) Stupid Outlander-friendly preps have stupid ass side
>effects. Seriously... CALM GOT ME KILLED. Why is it there?

Yeah, it is not like it is a haste prep or something.


If I ever make another evil outlander, it would be a class with inherent teleport and recall. Since mages are somewhat restricted when faced with manacles, it would probably end up being a shaman.
But of course said shaman would be much more deadly in any other cabal. Still, think of the RP ;-)

I won't say I disagree with all you say, or even most of what you say, although I do disagree with a portion of it.


About what you said about Tribbies only being a pillar or a recall away from defending.

First, The pillars can't be used if a foe is in the spire. So unless they have galadon as a home town, they are running.

Second, There is no other cabal that is FORCED to not only leave alone, but PROTECT anyone not wanted who is trying to kill the captain to retrieve ONE STEP AWAY from their cabal. I could make an argument that it is easier to retrieve against odds from the Tribunal (as a non-criminal) than from any other cabal out there.

"Intruder in the Spire" isn't a factor anymore. The only times you can't use the pillars now is when you are off duty or have recently been in a PK.


Grurk

Not that I'm complaining about this, but can I ask why this was changed?

nt

If I come stand at the door of your cabal for no reason and don't leave when asked, aren't you going to do something about it? In RP sense, it would make more sense for a trib to flag you than just killing you out right. You are disobeying an officer in the police station, you are now a criminal. Atleast that is my take on it.

Though I understand that a magistrate might want someone to leave the Spire in some cases, though the need is not as vital to ask a random bystander in the courtyard to leave, but I see the convenience of having a clause in the Law to get bystanders cleared from the courtyard if need be.

>Second, There is no other cabal that is FORCED to not only
>leave alone, but PROTECT anyone not wanted who is trying to
>kill the captain to retrieve ONE STEP AWAY from their cabal.


Incorrect. Tribunal are not "FORCED" to protect retrievers who are one step away from their cabal. In fact, it is a rather simple, effective, and oft-used tactic for them to merely sit in the Spire, "unaware" that the retriever is getting ganged one step away from their cabal.


>I could make an argument that it is easier to retrieve against
>odds from the Tribunal (as a non-criminal) than from any other
>cabal out there.

This argument of yours would be meaningless unless a sizable percentage (if not the majority) of people retrieving against odds from the Tribunal were non-criminals.

I think it would be way more fun if Outlanders were really outfitted to take the ass-whoop to civilization. Right now their powers are just ways to deal with their ####ty short-comings.

But then again, Sylvan was a bitch.

>Edit: The meat of this rant is this. I cannot imagine a
>single race/class combo that wouldn't be more deadly and more
>survivable as a non outlander. Feel free to suggest otherwise
>and I will shoot your suggestions down.

I am going to refute just about everything I have read here and shoot you down. Nothing personal. :)
>
>Sometime... I dunno maybe 3 or 4 weeks ago, my Tac experiences
>prompted me to write up a Top Ten Reasons To NOT Play An
>Outlander.... now I think it's a testament to just how out of
>whack they are that I would do something so fundamentally
>unlazy, but I'll list them here anyway, so everyone can tell
>me how I just don't know what I'm doing. BTW there isn't
>really any order here. Also, it will be full of sarcasm and
>"vitrol".
>
>1) Lack of available basic preps.
>
>See my thread in which Kastellyn and I go back and forth and
>he basically says... gee that's a good list of basic preps,
>and no, no I can't see how to gather those efficiently as an
>Outlander.

I had absolutely no problems with preps. The bad side effects that happened every once in awhile are the same bad side effects that can hit anyone else. Gathering preps was extremely easy for any of them by the time I hit level 40. The only thing I can say about this is perhaps I have a better knowledge of where to find them.

>
>2) Death Recovery
>
>Let me walk you through "worst case scenario" death scene with
>Tac. You die in the Spire during a raid. ####. Well lets go
>back and check to see if your corpse is empty... Of course it
>is... thanks to the portable looting machines that are special
>guards (personally I haven't found them to have any other
>discernable purpose). But you've intruded into the Spire, so
>now you're wanted... while still a ghost. SO.. you're naked
>(and wanted), outfitting from your guild isn't exactly
>"Outlander Acceptable Behavior" (tm) so you head out.
>Remember how you would normally hit your bank account and
>withdraw some of that rainy day cash to get some basic preps?
>Yea forget about that.... you got to gather everything from
>scratch. Enter hours of regathering gear/preps/etc.... Now
>you get to play again... yay!

So many mistakes here in the above paragraph, it is hard to begin. Go back and check? Never. Go grab a couple of weapons, some damage gear, unghost, ignite a few places and kill one of them and get gear back. Your scenario leads to failure, not success. Every basic prep you just listed can be found in less than 10 minutes real time if you know where to look.

>
>3) Your powers are pointless at best
>
>Let's look at a rundown:
>
>Deadfall: Can't do it while chamo'd

Don't need to do it while camo'd.


>
>Harvest: 5 rounds of standing around unchamo'd for some food
>(it might be 3 rounds) thanks, but I think I'll just go buy
>some berry pies.

It's an excellent rp power that you can use with or without the fetish.

>
>Subvert: I can't imagine a situation where this isn't the
>worst thing I can do with three rounds while attempting to
>attack a Trib, but hey, I never bothered to try it.... Cause
>umm.... I can't imagine a worse thing to do with my first
>three rounds?

This power is awesome. Sometimes it is better to cripple your foe for a time than it is to kill them. You do that on a pain in the ass lower level Trib with your gear and you can get your stuff back.

>
>Ignite: This is great, except for the fact that it has a
>short timer and is a crime.... So sure you can get an extra
>+20 hit dam, so long as you use it every 8 hours and don't use
>it in a protected area (so that you don't get flagged)

The timer is no shorter than a decent prep. If wanted flags are a bother for you, you aren't ready for Outlander.
>
>Windwalk: Ahh... the nicest power there is. Who needs flight
>potions when you have windwalk? Well unless you want to fight
>in a city... you know... where your enemies are. Granted it's
>great in a utility for the lazy sort of way, but quite
>frankly, I'd rather have flight potions.

Extremely minor issue.


>
>Vandalize: This power is so stupid. You can get maybe one
>potion, from an out of the way shop, and close it down for
>long enough that you had better get a DAMN good use outta that
>one potion you got. RP wise, it makes sense, game wise, it's
>great... for me to poop on.

I agree to a point here. I wouldn't mind seeing someway to try to vandalize and choose what you want. Then again, I didn't have it mastered so who knows how good it really works.
>
>Chameleon: Ahhh the Outlander uber power that evens out
>everything else. YOU CAN'T MOVE. I'm sure everyone knows
>this, but unless you plan on sitting in one place for a very
>very long time in order to trap someone... this is really only
>useful for running away (provided you have the fetish). I'd
>rather have lots of teleport potions personnally, but maybe
>that's just because you can't stop teleporting with faerie
>fire... or fog... or bioluminescence... or mark of the prey...
>or piercing gaze... or any area spell, or any other of the
>numerous ways to make some who is camo'd not camo'd anymore.

It gives any Outlander AMBUSH and the ability to AVOID enemies. If you have five people who see you out in the open and you chameleon to try to hide, you aren't using it the proper way to avoid. If you sit in an area waiting to ambush and you wait to let them fog you out, you aren't ambushing...you are trying to hide right in front of them.
>
>4) Sequestor: Without outlanders having insect call, I don't
>get how this power makes any sense. It doesn't take a genius
>to make a trigger to manacle the wanted (as I'm sure at least
>one spireling has) and after that, you get a short term no
>transportation effect. Yay for tribunals getting kills they
>have no business getting.

Short timer, barely a problem.

>
>5) Tribs don't have power outside the cities: Of course...
>they don't lose any power with the scales gone either.... so
>why ever leave? Eventually they have enough numbers to
>garuntee any retreival will be successful, and so they just
>sit there... in the city. I won't be fearing any Outlanders
>in the wilds now that I've played one, but I'm pretty sure
>I'll still avoid being wanted if I can... Parity?

See above about wanted flags.
>
>6) No Healers: Tac got in trouble for bartering with town
>healers to heal so he could retreive. That puts your list of
>available healer mobs roughly equal with those of a Rager.
>Have fun with that.
>
>7) Any raid up the Spire, and any spireling is one recall
>potion, and one trib spire from being there to make your life
>miserable. Outlanders? If they aren't already there, you'll
>probably have your item before they get there. After all it
>isn't like there are any recall points close by, and they're
>going to have to run the rest of the way.

Depends on the odds. If the odds were even, they didn't even come close to the tree for the most part because they didn't want to get ambushed. The few who did, like Dazan and Yagharek, usually came up on the short end of the stick at the tree. Retrieving is easy for a warrior for the most part. Beat up the competition first and then the Captain dies quick. Most people make the mistake of just going after the Captain first.
>
>8) Gray Taint: This is just plain uneccessary. So you
>mistakenly wore a silver dragon necklace, or a raft from
>galadon. Welcome to 15 minutes of powers not working and
>stupidly bad regen rates.

Good rp stuff there.
>
>9) Race/Class restrictions: I could go on about this for a
>very long time, but suffice to say, you have zero access to
>the four most deadly/powerful classes (necros, ap's, paladins,
>conjies). Zero, or near zero access to detect hidden
>(thieves/assassins/duergar). And the race class combinations
>you do allow are hamstrung by the other cabal restrictions.
>What were you thinking?

Seems like a good balance. A chameleoned character that can sleep you is just plain unfair. Paladins and conjies is a neat rp issue and gives outlanders others to hunt aside from just Tribs or Imperials. There are plenty of uncabaled assassins that can't stand Fortress folks that you can align yourself with. I did.
>
>10) Stupid Outlander-friendly preps have stupid ass side
>effects. Seriously... CALM GOT ME KILLED. Why is it there?

Preps already explained above.
>
>11) This one is thrown in specifically for Rehny, and because
>I think it's stupid for at least the evil branch of the
>Outlander, but could be applied across the board. Wilderness
>time... Why? For what purpose? If your enemies won't leave
>the city, why in god's name would you sit in the woods? How
>does this make sense?

Having done the ranger/druid thing in the past, wilderness time is very important. That being said, if a ranger or druid has to worry about wilderness time at the higher ranks, they haven't been very ranger or druid-like.
>
>That's my little tirade for today. I already had this stuff
>written down, so I had to post it... try to leave it up for a
>little while Valg... it is my death thread, and I put in more
>effort than most into an Outlander character that was insanely
>frustrating.

Nothing here that looks like it should get nerfed. Those were things that you found with your character. The problem is that having been one and run around with quite a few of the past Nightreavers, I find your little rant to be more about your troubles as a player and less as a problem with Outlander/Nightreavers/Warriors etc.

Good luck with your next.

I am going to refute just about everything I have read here and shoot you down. Nothing personal. :)

And yet you neglect to mention a race class combo that wouldn't be both more deadly and more survivable as a non outlander.

As for the rest of your post... I was going to refute your points, but it is obvious to me you have no clue what you are talking about. Try the easy question above before you start spouting nonsense like this:

"Every basic prep you just listed can be found in less than 10 minutes real time if you know where to look."

If I only wanted one of each, this still wouldn't be true.

>I am going to refute just about everything I have read here
>and shoot you down. Nothing personal. :)
>
>And yet you neglect to mention a race class combo that
>wouldn't be both more deadly and more survivable as a non
>outlander.

There are pros and cons to every class being more deadly than others. It is much more based on the skill of the player than on race/class/cabal combo. There will always be a more skilled killer regardless of what they are playing. There are a few players who routinely land 100+ pks with every character they play. It doesn't matter what race/class/cabal combo they play. Surviving is another thing based on skill. Sorry, bud, but being an Outlander requires you to really have your act together if you are going to be successful.

>
>As for the rest of your post... I was going to refute your
>points, but it is obvious to me you have no clue what you are
>talking about. Try the easy question above before you start
>spouting nonsense like this:

Your above comments show the exact opposite of what you truly know. It is only nonsense if it hasn't already been proven by multiple players who accomplished what you call nonsense. It is only nonsense to you because you weren't able to do it.


>
>"Every basic prep you just listed can be found in less than 10
>minutes real time if you know where to look."
>
>If I only wanted one of each, this still wouldn't be true.

This just tells me you don't know where all of them are. And since I am not going to post locations for obvious reasons, I can comfortably know that I am more than capable of getting them in that amount of time.

This post isn't berating. Tac was a solid rp'd character. Your beefs about being an Outlander and its drawbacks are from inexperience, not from game balance issues.

Let us take the hypothetical "skilled player that always gets 100+ pks" in your post, I'll call him Joe. Tac's point, that I happen to mostly agree with, is that if Joe rolls up an outlander, he will have a harder time than if he rolled up a character that went with any other cabal.

I can, however, name one class that I do feel benefits greatly from outlander powers (really just chameleon) - druids. They aren't prep reliant so don't have bartering issues regathering the basics, need wilderness time anyways so it isn't an undue burden, and the ability to be concealed in the woods gives them an incredible advantage. The downside is that your enemies tend to just avoid all wilderness areas out of caution, taking away many of your advantages.

>Let us take the hypothetical "skilled player that always gets
>100+ pks" in your post, I'll call him Joe. Tac's point, that
>I happen to mostly agree with, is that if Joe rolls up an
>outlander, he will have a harder time than if he rolled up a
>character that went with any other cabal.
>

Thanks for explaining this is a civilized way. Very well stated.

>I can, however, name one class that I do feel benefits greatly
>from outlander powers (really just chameleon) - druids. They
>aren't prep reliant so don't have bartering issues regathering
>the basics, need wilderness time anyways so it isn't an undue
>burden, and the ability to be concealed in the woods gives
>them an incredible advantage. The downside is that your
>enemies tend to just avoid all wilderness areas out of
>caution, taking away many of your advantages.

I somewhat agree, but I will point out two things that I beleive tip in the non-outlander druid favor. 1) Survivability: If you aren't a wood elf, you recall to a healer. Also, druids still need teleport/recall potions which are easier to come by as a non-outtie. 2) The deathfullness that chameleon adds I think is less potent than the wider choice of allies you have a s a non outlander. As a druid, teaming up with certain race/class combos (that are unavailable as an outlander) more than makes up for the added deathfullness of chamo, IMHO. Side not: I'd rather be a druid vindy, lower wildness time and all.

Sick, sick, sick.

Druids don't really need recall.

Especially once you get birdform.

Also druids are ridiculously good at healing themselves. I went against an imperial shaman with 8 or 9 levels on me for about 30 minutes real time without paying a single visit to a healer. Herbal forage, heroes feast and the like can cure almost anything. (Being blind wasn't so good though.)

>Let us take the hypothetical "skilled player that always gets
>100+ pks" in your post, I'll call him Joe. Tac's point, that
>I happen to mostly agree with, is that if Joe rolls up an
>outlander, he will have a harder time than if he rolled up a
>character that went with any other cabal.

And there are other players that this affects in a completely opposite manner. It really is a skill level per player, not a race/class/cabal combo issue. That is the point. It isn't that much different than saying anything else is bad.

>
>I can, however, name one class that I do feel benefits greatly
>from outlander powers (really just chameleon) - druids. They
>aren't prep reliant so don't have bartering issues regathering
>the basics, need wilderness time anyways so it isn't an undue
>burden, and the ability to be concealed in the woods gives
>them an incredible advantage. The downside is that your
>enemies tend to just avoid all wilderness areas out of
>caution, taking away many of your advantages.

Marcus had a ton of kills with Cathoria, but three times as many with Rhomelanthos. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any outlander that had more than 150 kills.

I won't go so far as to say you are flat out wrong, but I am not aware of any player who has come out and said it was easier to rack up kills as an outlander.

>Marcus had a ton of kills with Cathoria, but three times as
>many with Rhomelanthos. Off the top of my head, I can't think
>of any outlander that had more than 150 kills.
>
>I won't go so far as to say you are flat out wrong, but I am
>not aware of any player who has come out and said it was
>easier to rack up kills as an outlander.

Marcus had a ton of kills with Eyzy as well. Yes, I know, he used a mad trigger system and got spanked for it, but, he was still killing at an incredible rate even afterwards.

Tjok landed over 130 kills and I haven't heard from any other of his characters since.

Many characters deleted with low hours who would have hit those numbers easily. They are all races and classes...shamans, druids, shifters and warriors.

I bet Death_Claw could do a druid and spank those numbers as well better in Outlander than outside of it.

Marcus is very solid. His trigger system aside*, he knows what he's doing. His killing had nothing to do with being an outlander.

Tjok (IIRC) isn't playing anymore, or at least nothing serious. Also, that character was like 600 hours old.... Being an outlander had nothing to do with his killing ability.

It's easy to rack up kills in the lower ranges, regardless of cabal.... Just because you have 30 kills in 40 hours at level 35, doesn't mean you're going to rack up 150+ in 200 hours.

Have you played an outlander? You can gather all those preps in 10 minutes right? Feel free to produce your uber badass outlander, but forgive me if I don't hold my breath. We have immortals and some solid vets saying that my argument has at the very least "some merit" and only you saying that my arguments are baseless because I'm not skilled enough. Perhaps it is not my viewpoint that is skewed.

(*) I can't beleive no one did this before him... I've often considered making dash + reiniate triggers, but was too lazy to ever put them in effect. I have, however, on other games made dash+bash aliases so that I could catch fleeing oponents before they had a chance to get away. The only difference being that Marcus's was much more effective.

>Marcus is very solid. His trigger system aside*, he knows
>what he's doing. His killing had nothing to do with being an
>outlander.
>
>Tjok (IIRC) isn't playing anymore, or at least nothing
>serious. Also, that character was like 600 hours old....
>Being an outlander had nothing to do with his killing
>ability.
>
>It's easy to rack up kills in the lower ranges, regardless of
>cabal.... Just because you have 30 kills in 40 hours at level
>35, doesn't mean you're going to rack up 150+ in 200 hours.
>
>Have you played an outlander? You can gather all those preps
>in 10 minutes right? Feel free to produce your uber badass
>outlander, but forgive me if I don't hold my breath. We have
>immortals and some solid vets saying that my argument has at
>the very least "some merit" and only you saying that my
>arguments are baseless because I'm not skilled enough.
>Perhaps it is not my viewpoint that is skewed.

As Kazren, I did okay and played it within my role to try to only kill those who were considered the toughest in the land. I rarely ever killed anyone who wasn't considered a threat because I am not a fan of just racking up the numbers anymore. Having killed Yagharek, Dulmisa, Aurilinius, Dazan and a few others who were considered the elite during my time as Nightreaver, I have more than enough knowledge and ability to be proof itself. I am not saying that Tac was a bad player or anything like that. From what I saw of Tac, I liked him. I just think that you are putting the blame for what you considered as a failing in the wrong place. And yes, I ran the gauntlet, so to speak, and got a haste, stone skin, cure poison, cure disease, shield, fly and teleport potion in just under 9 minutes to be exact without using a coin. That leaves approximately 5 minutes to grab the few pieces of gear needed for a counter before you unghost. For anyone who remembers Kazren over the summer, having preps was never an issue.
>
>(*) I can't beleive no one did this before him... I've often
>considered making dash + reiniate triggers, but was too lazy
>to ever put them in effect. I have, however, on other games
>made dash+bash aliases so that I could catch fleeing oponents
>before they had a chance to get away. The only difference
>being that Marcus's was much more effective.

Good-aligned shamans benefit very well from Good Outlander powers. I hesitate to say "greatly", but they definately come out well ahead in the bargain (benefits = harmony, windwalk, chamo, and to a much lesser extent, beast call; drawbacks = roughly the same as a druid). I'd take a good outlander shaman over a maran shaman.

Personally, I've scrapped a couple of warrior ideas because I didn't think I could sufficiently hack it at lvl.51 with all the Outlander drawbacks - which makes me admire Marcus all the more.

I was going to devout this space to bashing on all the bitch ass characters that mad Tac's life miserable and whatnot, but it doesn't seem neccessary, so I'll leave this as a place holder in case I feel the need later.

Every fight I had against you was very bad for me. I must say I was very upset to see you have left. I wanted a couple more shots at you. I don't think that it would have done much good...but I wanted them anyway.

This character was always a throwaway character.... Unfortunately no one seemed to get it but me. Nearly every choice made with this character was some sort of joke, starting with his full name (chosen at level one) Tac Mruck. Obviously the Imms didn't get the funny part, since I had to point out that it probably wasn't wise to show my last name..... "Don't waste our time with this sort of stuff." was I beleive the official response. Tac had no role, and Tac was never meant to have a role. Tac's first warcry "Tac Attack" was used only once before his warcry got nuked and his subsequent warcrys were mostly slightly modified movie quotes.... "Fists of Fury" from kicking and screaming anyone? I wish I could have worked in "Tornado of Anger" and "Whirling Dervish, Swirling About", but I couldn't figure out how....

However, just because I had no role, doesn't mean I didn't roleplay, I just wasn't that serious about it.... Most things were a joke to me OOC, even if Tac was very serious about them IC. I can't really explain why I never took a second spec, but it seemed like an IC choice Tac would make.... On a related note, everyone should read help fire giant background.... Of all the people I interacted with, I don't think a single one got the One Law reference, and it was very disheartening. If I had ever made a role entry it would have gone something like this: Help Fire Giant Background + Former Slave - Use of Conventional Weapons = Tac. Didn't really seem neccessary, ya know?

Anyway, as a throwaway character, I never had any intentions of doing anything meaningful, but I did want to check out Outlanders (see The Ugly), which was pretty fun, at least for a while. Some characters made this particularly enjoyable, and I'll attempt to mention them here... if I forgot you it means I hated you... no seriously, I just forgot.

Kruuak, you motherless bastard, I wish we would have traveled together more, but alas it was not to be. As for why... well since the only thing that kept me playing was the obligation to make a decent showing at Nightreaver (a position I never wanted or asked for btw) and that dissapeared, continuing to provide the spire with gear seemed rather pointless. I did enjoy our one romp about the fortress with Chakru, even if I did get bitched out by (I assume) cabal imms.

Chakru, boy was it nice having a evil healer psuedo-ally, if only a few times, and for brief periods.

Ahtathurn, I can't beleive I ranked so much with you and you never mentioned joining the Empire.... bastard. Seriously though I will gloat over my one kill on you in Hamsah (evil trannies should save allies so much!) and conveniently forget all the times you beat me down (though less so solo after a while).

Ceymore, wish we could have fought together more, you were nice to have around, even if we didn't fight all that great together (mostly me being stupid).

Quaurean (sp?), thanks for all the transmuting to wood.... without it, my "curious" choices for specs/legacies would have been even more difficult.

Arminas, see Chakru, substitue evil for good and apply liberally.

Gosen... for like a week, you were like Tac's best friend....

I'm going to forget some Outlander types, because even when some of you got high enough in level for us to fight together, Tac still spent most of his time alone.... tough to hang out in the weald with camo'd rangers when you don't have the fetish and all...

As for the Spire, I'll only mention two of you, Volicitry, who was only a bitch about 40% of the time, and the not Kasdenn svirf. You two were (to my immediate recolection) the only two Tac had any respect for, and those pretty much mirror my personnal thoughts as most of you were basically cowards. When 6 of you came after me in the graveyard of Galadon.... that was perhaps the silliest thing I've ever seen. (Falun I avoided like the plague, but when he did show up at the Tree to kill me... it wasn't alone... ever)

I'm probably forgetting a ton of people, but if you speak up, I'll probably get to you.

well since the only thing that kept me playing was the obligation to make a decent showing at Nightreaver (a position I never wanted or asked for btw)

Just to refresh your mind -
Tac tells you 'Tree has no Nightreaver. See no one rally behind, so no rally.'

You tell Tac 'It is known we are poor on allies.'

Tac tells you 'Then lets Tac gather them to hims.'

Tac tells you 'Only Glade Adherents and other weak hearts seek Refuge. Sunwarden does her part, let Reaver do theirs.'

You tell Tac 'Perhaps if you can grow a bit in power...it may be yours. I shall remember you and remember your interest.'


Regarding your other comments, I am not saying they lack validity. What I will say, is they can be a pain and many characters prior to you have had reasonable success with the restrictions imposed. What I will say is presently Outlander is an underdog, that will change when it cycles through again. When anyone is the underdog, life on CF can be a pain. You showed you had guts and were willing to fight, and I respect that.

Good luck in whatever is next.

Was good getting a chance to travel with you towards the end of your life. Shame you deleted though, when a warrior is so handy to an invoker. Wish we could have done more then the occasional ranking though, so good luck!

P.S. Join Scion!

Millithora

Well played, again.

What happened?

I got replaced as Nightreaver for.... well who knows I just got a plague and a go away out of the deal. I've never met the person who replaced me, but hey... if you're a ranger you will sure as hell be bringing the fight to the city....

Anyway, I was tired of being outnumbered 10 enemies to me, and then getting yelled at for grouping with scions the only *possible* allies in a ranger filled with fort/empire/spire, and since I didn't have the obligation of being Nightreaver anymore, it seemed as good a time as any.

It was fun travelling with you. Maybe we'll meet up again when I'm not playing a rager without rager powers and we'll kick some ass together.

Getten fool looted by six tribunals was tough for me to sit back and watch., I didnt want you to delete, you had some major balls as an outlander! ####en burnen the cities down all the time! Had meh runnen into fires left and right. We had a few good fights. Expecially that one against Tahlek and you. I got killed! Hah! Seriously, I hated seeing you get fool looted when all you had was some steaks. It pissed me off to see that!! Good work with character sad to see you delete!


Volicitry

After that Garlaath just hated you, and did whatever he could to kill you (or avoid you since I couldn't deal with your legacy/spec with mine very well).

.