Well I deleted, maybe I'm just not cracked up for this but villagers are getting beyond my nerves. My only two deaths were both to thirsting villagers, who thirst and pray. I'm sorry man, but Jafar and Maelknar (or however you say your name) - it's really bad how powerful that can be. If I'm wrong in my depiction of my two deaths, please say so.

My first death - I walked onto Eastern road, literally one room, and ran into a thirsting duergar axe spec who one-rounded me. Two deathblows and a deathblow parting blow - I lost 640hp in one round and I had a near godly-set (which got partially full-looted, no biggie I guess).

My second death - Etissrus and I see Jafar and Alaric, two warriors. Easy right? We summon/jack Alaric, and summon Jafar - who thirsts. Right there, I think it's over. I take about 300hps in one round and flee - but come back hiding (knowing he can't see me). Well he attacks Alaric to wake him up and Etissrus returns and bashes Jafar. Money time right? The villager kills Alaric and makes Etissrus run in one round, and guess what? Little ol' Tyrone stares at a thirsting villager and loses 350hps in one round - fully looted, my second near-godly set.

Well I haven't bitched at all really with this character, who was really fun and powerful (sorry Grurk - if I could stand it, I would have stayed) but damn....I mean, why even try when that randomness ends it all? It's no fun playing a character when your option with villagers is either recall or wait for the head to be gone. The first time was completely unavoidable - my jaw dropped when I died in one round by just walking in the room! (and a huge amount of villagers are duergars...who promptly give the Fortress the Codex, ironically) The second time was just disgusting really - I can't even gang a villager without dying in one round, when I had a damn nice set.

Oh well, I'm on vacation in France and my wife is sleeping, so I thought I'd get on....didn't know I'd be deleting. Time to sip coffee and view the country-side, it was fun everyone. If I can find the log when I get home, it'll explain the "RESPECT!" line - push is a great RP tool.

Tyrone, aka NewTrapper - done with thieves for now, might make an AP with the changes. Hopefully wands will give me a chance....doubtful though.

I am interested what you think about new trappers.

Regarding your post: You cant judge Ragers 'overpoweredness' just by two stupid deaths you got from them.
Ya, sh|t happens. Most of the time you dont have any control over situation when it happens. Move on and try something.

Yes... there is a grain of truth in your posts.
But if you were to post saying you fought Ragers for 100 hours RL, tried dozens various tactics, used all possible traps and still failed every time - Your post would carry a lot more weight for me.

Regards,

Thief fun with sh|t deflector

What does 'partially full looted' mean?

I got full looted, then the Empire killed my killer, then I got some of my loot back and Village heroes looted the rest. Hence, partially looted. :)

Gotta fight Rager berserkers smartly. In most all of the complaints I see from people who complain about getting waxxed by a Rager berserker, they talk about how the Rager tore them and their groupmates a new one. Well geez, they're in the cabal of the mightiest warriors in the land. If you try to go toe-to-toe with them, I don't think you can be surprised when they kill you, even if you're a warrior yourself.

Instead, fight them smart. Lead them into traps, ambushes... one of their biggest weaknesses is their inability to escape in any way other then on foot. Also, what happens when bloodthirst wears off? Take advantage of mobs when they're thirsting. They can't use preps either, but you can. You're a trapper thief? Don't even attack them. You know you're going to be toast if they manage to target you. Instead, set up... traps. Take advantage of their weaknesses, stop trying to go in the front door and kick their ass.

In other words, don't fight their fight. Rager berserkers kill a lot and die a lot. They kill the ones that try to fight their way, and the die to the ones that fight smart. And that means that sometimes, you just might not be able to kill them. Wait and fight when the circumstances favor you. Read Sun Tzu or something!

Aarn

Ladies and gentlemen, the post you just read is all you need to know. Aarn just perfectly explained everything. There are hidden weaknesses to all villagers, not just berserkers, and when exploited, they grow exponentially. Treat a villager like you would a prepped out ranger. Are you going to waltz into the woods, let them ambush you, and tear you up with wilderness familiarity? Hell no. You bring them to you.

So, to summarize, well said Aarn. Damn brilliant.

Is that when you try to fight smart, say by fleeing and attempting to return after battle fatigue sets in, they've already run back to the Destructor to wait it of. Sure, if you catch one far enough away from the village to lay some smack down you might be able to catch them on Eastern, but I very rarely see ragers outside the "hurry back to the big D zone." I've seen plenty of villagers die, but it was usually when I boxed them in behind black shrouded Centurions with Vinson or caught them by surprise by having Gnarugk come in and take them out. If they're not raiding though you might as well forget it 'cause chances are they're making sure the Destructor is free of magic or ranking near enough the village to make running back quick and easy. I've seen plagued ragers, who took a couple of energy drains, thirst and run back to the village to sit at the D for several hours. Then you gotta gather a 3-man team, or more depending on the classes, and fight your way in to gank them down. Then they bitch about getting ganked.


It's pretty stupid.

There definitely is a very small 'Rager Kill Zone' that all but the most fearsome Battleragers fear to leave. Galadon-Eastern-Ruins pretty much sums it up, with odd forays into Scion and Maran territory providing opposition is light. Whether this is 'smart' or 'cowardly' I'll leave up in the air.

shifter outside the "D zone" as you put it. I stood on top of the mountain near frozen wastes unshifted and waited. They all hovered right up to the down way and would turn back. Its because I have killed them all when away from the "D zone". They can't play without it and they know it. They are not stupid. They know that they don't have good tactics so without bloodthirst they die.

My only issue with berserkers is that deathblow is damn painful and pretty common.

Let's go over my options - I had thug up to parting block and the rest in binding, so let's put this versus any berserker warrior.

1) Blackjack
-First fight, thirsting warrior walked
-Second fight, it failed
-In general, it's useful to gang or at least try and level the fight.

2) Backstab/knife
-First fight, again no option
-Second fight, damage wouldn't have helped
-With resist, my <<ERADICATES>> were doing **DEMOLISHES** - rather blackjack and pray it falls.

3) All my binding skills
-First fight, useless
-Second fight, no jack = no binding
-Without blackjack, not a chance in hell.

4) Quaff/call buddies/run
-First fight, useless
-Second fight, shoulda ran
-I hate running

See, I know how to fight ragers - just this character didn't have many options. I'm not into hopelessly massacring them since it gets real boring and I have somewhat of a soul when it comes to killing villagers 10 to 1. If blackjack fails, I've got about 2 rounds of combat with a warrior who will completely rip me a new one. Even if I land the blackjack, the chances of me surviving a one-on-one is real rare.

I've killed villagers, just this character had no real options in one-on-one that were viable. When you step one room onto Eastern Road, and die in one round (when I've been avoiding villagers a LOT prior to this) - kinda gets ya down, right? There's no preparing to take 650 damage with every step you take as a thief. I can't walk around with sanctuary/barrier, and I sure as heck am not going to be paranoid enough that I scan every room I go.

My end-all solution?
1) I make a character that can handle villagers - yes, they exist. And it'll help my frustration a bit to dying so easily to berserkers. If I get that annoyed, I can always make the ultimate village killer - duergar shaman, dwarf paladin, etc. That or I just make a character that either is not an enemy, doesn't deal with them or I make a villager (very unlikely). Either way, I don't grumble about villagers anymore.
-and-
2) Make deathblow based on opponents,protections and level - so the damage is percentage based and not a strict multiplier. The character has invoker shields, sanctuary, barrier and super-uber nepenthe-isk protections? Make deathblow do an UNSPEAK before reduction. Random thirsting berserker walks into you (who you haven't even seen before) and you're a lonely thief? Make the deathblow do a DEMO-DEVAS. 12 gangbangers summon you into a locked room to savagely beat you with jerky strips? UNSPEAK. You get the idea.
-and-
3) Make it one, maybe two a round tops? When ya get two and a parting blow in one round of combat, that's a bit over the top - it doesn't make for true "warrior skill", it's rolling the dice to see if you win.

You can tell me strategy, and I hear you Aarn - I know it, I didn't get a god suit from sitting on my thumb. I killed and stole and did what I needed to do to get what I wanted. There's no strategy to walking into a room that has the equivalent of a death trap that you didn't know about. I could have picked up my ghost pants and regeared or I can realize that it's a lose-lose situation with this character and try something else. Even if I had heroed and got bind-hands/tie, it wouldn't have helped much in killing villagers who constantly deal ANNIHILATES or higher damage each round of combat - even without their weapon.

Tyrone

>See, I know how to fight ragers - just this character didn't
>have many options.


That might be the whole deal right there, just thinking out loud here.

It just seems like part of the balance of CF is that each combo usually does very well against certain kinds of enemies and very poorly against others.

As I shield spec tribunal paladin, for instance, I learned quickly that fighting neutral invokers and neutral axe specs outside of town was, more often than not, a waste of time without a buddy tagging along.

>My only issue with berserkers is that deathblow is damn
>painful and pretty common.

Let me just say I had next to none problems with village.
It was Marans who gave me pause (Damn you Iramath for engineering all these gank situations).
But even me as ShadowLord, if I saw duergar berserker running to me with big axes - I would get the hell out ASAP.

>Let's go over my options - I had thug up to parting block and
>the rest in binding, so let's put this versus any berserker
>warrior.

I took exactly this path.

>1) Blackjack

Worked just fine for me. Problem was - victim would radio over CB they've been blackjacked and whole village would relocate to save poor sob and/or mash me into the ground (see how courageous Village is).

>-First fight, thirsting warrior walked

Eh? Dont EVER fight thirsted village. Quick way to the altar.

>-In general, it's useful to gang or at least try and level the
>fight.

I do agree the current situation is set up so only relatively safe and sure way to kill berserker is gang.

Which is sad. Deathblow do have to go.


>2) Backstab/knife

You are not going to outdamage village berserker. Period.
Stop being warrior in funny suit and be a thief.
You cant win all fights. Sometime you have to let it go.
If you are trying to blackjack every enemy you see - you are not playing thief right.


>3) All my binding skills

They do tend to be useless if you failed blackjack.
Flee/hide, try 5 hours latter.


>-I hate running

Soooo? What is more imporant for you? Your life or the fact you had to run?


>If blackjack fails,
>I've got about 2 rounds of combat with a warrior who will
>completely rip me a new one.

You are absolutely right. Sometimes it pays to prepare for worst.
Helps you survive.

As an example: Before I were to blackjack Icthaen (maran elf spear/axe spec) I would quaff protection/fly. Some blackjacks failed but I lived to fight again.


>Even if I land the blackjack, the
>chances of me surviving a one-on-one is real rare.

Here you are wrong. Finishing villager might be a problem.
But you should have survived every single encounter once you landed blackjack.

>My end-all solution?

There is no such thing.

It was Marans who gave me pause (Damn you Iramath for engineering all these gank situations).

STOP CRYING! I didn't mastermind your god damned ####ty deaths. You did stupid stuff and it got you killed! LIVE WITH IT AND STOP TRYING TO SMEAR MY GOD DAMNED NAME.

Hey Mek... Chill out.
Even if you think you did not gank - it absolutely does NOT matter now.

Nievar was touchy-feely about this subject.
I even extended it to my farewell post.
I loved butting heads with you and imagining you turning purple from anger.

But this is not the place.

Peace,

-N-

Boys and girls, this is the perfect example of a forum monkey. That's right - a person who takes every line and likes to replay his asinine comments as he takes every sentence out of context of the rest, completely forgoeing the intelligent response of reading it all and responding at once.

The moral of the story? Keep your mouth shut, seriously - in your reply you manage to grasp my point of running when seeing a thirsting villager yet cannot understand that the point of my post was that I didn't want that kind of character, so I deleted. I don't care about your encounters with the village, I don't give a rat's behind about your life with Maran, and I sure as hell don't need your thinly-veiled insults to me and others like Iramath.

The only reason I write this is so that you might understand that not everyone wants to hear your two cents, nor is your comment even worth the two cents. Freedom of speech doesn't mean you burb out your non-intelligent rant in an attempt to be useful. Seriously, read the entire post and then ask yourself "Is my reply even worth it to others?"

And that whole bit to Iramath about seeing purple in anger...get a life dude, obssess about something else in life.

Tyrone

I was honestly trying to help you out.
In my view you did not play Imperial thief correctly (not saying I did eather).
Which could have been a successul char in reaching your goals (Killing Ragers for instance).
You should probably search for Urog or Yanacek logs for example. If you wish to improve.

If you dont need any (or just my) help, cool.

Regards or f@ck you (pick your style),

-N-

>Instead, fight them smart. Lead them into traps, ambushes... one of >their biggest weaknesses is their inability to escape in any way >other then on foot. Also, what happens when bloodthirst wears off? >Take advantage of mobs when they're thirsting. They can't use preps >either, but you can. You're a trapper thief? Don't even attack them. >You know you're going to be toast if they manage to target you. >Instead, set up... traps. Take advantage of their weaknesses, stop >trying to go in the front door and kick their ass.

I think the other complaint from many people is that they negate this inability to flee by staying mostly on roads or otherwise within easy reach of the Village. At hero, even with half your movement and hamstrung and/or manacled, you have a decent chance of getting from any of the cabals Ragers would be raiding, back to the Village just by sticking to roads. Villagers often duck into their cabal more than any other cabal member, even when it's the dumb thing to do. I was guilty of it too just as much as any berserker.

You often won't be able to lead them into terrain where they can get tired and be screwed because of this tendency. About half of your berserkers at any given time are usually going to be smart enough to either duck out of the way when fatigue sets in or make damn sure that when they collapse, it's behind their cabal outer and preferably at the Destructor.

And I can't really blame them either for doing it because it works and it's not even being cheap. Oftentimes though, you'll find that assassins have their fun with zerkers for this very reason unless they are duergar. In general, every rager warrior is duergar, cloud or arial unless you're a masochist like I was. :P

While I agree with your using mobs comment, there's one little thing I'd like to point out:

Some people agree with me that summoning mobs is a terribly OOC method to deal with bloodthirst (and battle bard songs), especially to cabals they wouldn't normally 'defend'. Why the #### would Orumous stay unharmed near the entire Imperial council? Since when is Ghaelek the duergar king sane enough to constantly defend the archmage or the nightwalker, and never flee even when nightmare is sung to them? Even in his constant emotionally unstable and primarily driven-by-instinct state? Why are elite dwarven guards throwing themselves in front of zerkers to suicide for the likes of necromancers and EVIL shamen in a fight they have nothing to do with? Why aren't all these said cabal outers and inners autoattacking any mob that isn't a charmy or servitor because they are INVADING THE CABAL???

On the other side of the coin, given how one command can turn three people perma-tripping you into meat or how if unlagged battle bards can rival invokers in damage and maladiction potential, I really don't blame summoners either for doing RP-retarded battle tactics.

And yes, it's an undeniable fact that in many cases we have veterans, generals, and other revered warriors in Battle that have never stepped foot off the Eastern, North, Crumbling and dwarven roads, let alone off the damn Galadon continent.

.