Wed Dec 8 16:52:49 2004

At 7 o'clock PM, Day of the Moon, 28th of the Month of the Old Forces
on the Theran calendar Thresinok perished, never to return.

Race:	fire
Class:	warrior
Level:	51
Alignment:	Evil
Ethos:	Chaotic
Cabal:	OUTLANDER, the Outlanders of Thar-Eris
Age:	228
Hours:	195

Okay, I gotta say this even at the risk of sounding like an Imm-Lackey.

Amaranthe is hands down one of the best things going for CF right now.

I realize this is an opinion, but my experiences with her have always been pleasant, even when she has scolded me.

She mentioned that there are people that streak to her shrine when she throws them a pecho. (Does that mean Personal-echo?). I’m guilty of that. In fact, tard that I am, When I played Kiffik I would dash to her shrine or throw up a prayer telling her to have patience with me while I dashed to her shrine…because I saw an automatic area echo that included a raven in it. I thought she was pechoing me, and when The Mother wouldn’t respond to my prayers I thought I was being denied her presence because I was taking to long to get to her shrine. I thought it was a punishment of sorts.

My point here is I as a player was misinterpreting a “Sign from the Gods” and after a while she decided to set me strait with a Matronly scolding (That set poor Kiffik to tears).

Once as Bruinus Skybear I “told a tale” through emotes to Proserpina. This was before the Role command and I eluded to one of the unofficial boards out their that I had basically posted my role there. Proserpina didn’t understand it, and I wasn’t going to go into anymore detail because It would have crossed OOC. Proserpina told me later that Amaranthe had explained my meaning to her and she now understood my story. So Amaranthe had been watching us both as I struggled to learn about the Inner Circle.

So I can honestly say that she has always been there for me as a character and a player, and she has, in my eyes, displayed a wonderful knack for dealing with OOC issues IC as well as enriching every RP experience I;ve had with her.

I feel bad as a player when the Matron turns back to her chores or the Child Dances away.

That being said… People make mistakes and they get defensive. I completely see the point Thresinok is making and it’s a valid one. I just don’t think Amaranthe did it on purpose and may feel unappreciated. From all I can discern the Nok was a pretty kick ass character so I can understand the disappointment.

I think this is one of those cases where both sides feel misunderstood but have legitimate concerns all the same.

Amaranthe is a real life Mommy and as a real life Daddy, I think I can understand the need to suddenly wax catatonic and slip into the void. If my child is over, I would usually only MUD when she was asleep. When she woke up, I often didn’t have time for a cue that I was leaving or dropping link.

I’m not saying this was the case, but it’s an example of how things happen.
If CF is going to lose another Immortal I would hate for it to be Amaranthe (Again =) ).
If the rumors be true, there is enough grief in Asgaard to go around, let’s at least spare Amaranthe grief on Thera.

When the immortals made me leader it really destroyed my roleplay, but I decided to roll with it*. Then another immortal whom I followed wanted me to start writing bard notes. It was like none of them really understood the role. Noks are not leaders, they are not bard note writers, they don't seek people out to write notes, they eat the crap that is broken in the Perfect Order, thats it. They are like green slime in old school D and D. They just exist and eat and serve Ancients. Having the ancients ask Thresinok to be leader pulled him in two completely different directions. And either way would have crumbled the character, it was a catch 22.

*I was just going to be a really crappy leader type but then I thought it would be unfair to the applicants and players and I could not do it, (my own personal roleplay break out of compassion for other players) which basically destroyed the character's rp anyway.

I loved the character idea, and wanted to age death it, but I lost utter interest and was extremely frustrated with the interaction I got from the immortals. Its strange to be saying this but its the truth. I felt like the extensive role I wrote was not even read (or understood), and I was instead given Nightreaver because I had a presence and pked well.
I was hoping this whole time maybe the spark would come back and I could think of some way out of it that would not ruin the Nok roleplay, but honestly I could not. Thresinok's roleplay was hard and solid, unmovable. There was not much room for growth or reflection given the character. I should have just deleted after talking to Khaso. I apologize to all the applicants. Its too bad I got the message of Nok across to the mortals I interacted with but not the immortals. My fault partly, I thought my role was clear enough.
I didn't want another leader character which was the sole reason I put it in my role that I was stupid, dumb, and basically a green slime. But my overachieverness at the moment took over (as it usually does) , as well as the Nok character (refuse what an Ancient asks? Never), and so I was stuck, and this is the first time roleplaying the character correctly destroyed the wish to play the character as a player.

As for Outlander, I played for camo and windwalk, and found both ignite and vandalize to be useless in almost every way. Pure RP powers and thats really it. I did it because it was my role to do it, but if it wasn't I would never do either one. Vandalize cost me more pieces of equipment because shopkeepers would suddenly be hooded level invokers who would blast me with stoneshatter or do 600 points of damage in the lag of vandalize. I stopped doing it because it was so dangerous and I could not even affect the shops I wanted, and in the 1 and 20 chance I successfully vandalized, I usually got a poison ingredient or a potion of armor, or something equally useless.

Ignite got a little better half way through, but not much. It was an annoyance to thieves and assassins I guess, but thats it. Maybe gave low level tribunals something to do, or maybe it mob deathed a few newbies who were close to death when they entered town, but thats not much of a reason to do it as a player.

Subvert was a useful power, but ultimately its an "anti-tribunal" power, and not useful anywhere else (as far as I know, but please insert Nepenthian vague comment of how stupid I am).

The certain "ancient" thing added did add some spice to Outlander but the more I played with it, the more it rewarded elite people or OOC game information swapping. And I'm sure one industrious player is already hard at work getting it squared away. I don't want to get into it more because maybe its still somewhat secret. When I start doing search patterns and methodically moving through, there is something wrong.

One last thing. Immortals if you are bored when you are snooping/watching someone, I find it unfair to the player to start sending little room emotes to them which undoubtably forces them into a certain death situation. Where the player must choose from breaking the character's hardline role or going to their certain death. The one with the mummy comes to mind, as do a few others. I stuck to my role as Nok and in doing so got me instantly killed. Left a bitter taste in my mouth. These interactions are especially bitter when after you get killed and full looted there is no more interaction, making it a wholely negative experience. (Unfortunately this is the second character this has happened with).

I hope this doesn't come across as too negative. I enjoyed my time in Outlander and interacting with those inside. I also enjoyed interacting with my enemies and those willing to try to understand the simple mind of Nok. The roleplay fit so perfectly into Outlander and the history of Thera, I loved it, and I hope the immortals and mortals that interacted with it enjoyed the time.

Thanks for the chance.

Great character, not much more to say.

The Ancients did give you the option of refusing their request.. but you didn't take them up on it. *shrug* You're right in that you were offered the position because you were a presence, good roleplay, good playerkiller - but, you didn't have to accept it. The Ancients would have actually respected you for doing otherwise if you had been insistant on the matter.

I can't comment on the bard note thing. I have no idea about that.

The echo thing I can comment on. It was only meant to be an interesting experience, not necessarily a victory. Personally I think flaws and weaknesses are what makes characters interesting, and I think too many characters ignore their weaknesses and flaws because it would mean defeat or inconvenience. One good way of testing the strength of a roleplayer is to see how they react when they are confronted with their weaknesses. You did a good job. Most people would have just ignored it.

(Incidentally, that wasn't random, either. Killing that mummy would have resulted in his permanent destruction. Being so close to permanently destroying a piece of the "Broken Order" is what caused the maddening 'scent'.)

>The echo thing I can comment on. It was only meant to be an interesting experience, not necessarily a victory. Personally I think flaws and weaknesses are what makes characters interesting, and I think too many characters ignore their weaknesses and flaws because it would mean defeat or inconvenience. One good way of testing the strength of a roleplayer is to see how they react when they are confronted with their weaknesses. You did a good job. Most people would have just ignored it.

However, it looks like that if what Thresniok is saying is true, his reward for confronting his character's weakness and sticking to his role was instadeath + full looting - further immteraction. That doesn't seem to me to be a constructive way to make people want to stick to their RP guns.

That's often the reward for *any* risk a mortal takes, no matter what inspired it, whether it was for roleplaying reasons or otherwise.

And ultimately seeing these displays of good RP, even those that result in defeat, are what lead to greater rewards in the long run. Often people who earn quest spells and skills and legacies are the same people who are occasionally willing embrace defeat and weakness in the name of RP.

The outcome of Thresinok's situation was not pre-ordained by a couple of echoes he got from an imm. He still made choices, some of which were made in his role and some of which were made that day, that moment.

If he, or anyone else, is willing to blame a death 100% on a couple of text messages, that's a lack of willingness to accept responsibility for themselves, I think.

If things had turned out positively for him (and they could have), we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

Choice creates responsibility (or the illusion of it). When not given a choice, responsibility should be put somewhere else (or a majority of it). I accept that I got killed, and some responsibility is mine, but sending someone into a no-exit room with a mummy who can't be blinded who is famous for flee/sleep until they get you, where all my instincts as a player is thinking *deathtrap*, you must take some responsibility for it. There was a reason Tjok and I were camoed and not attacking directly, because we both knew as players that we were dead if we did. I find your comment here to be a cope out on your part as an immortal, and it is you who is failing to take a large chunk of the responsibility for whatever reason. Do you believe you made a mistake here?

That is fine that quest skills/spells/powers/legacies come to people who get in these situations. That is great. As an immortal do you think it is good player interaction when you send these messages, and the player acts correctly on it, and the final result he is killed and full looted and left with wondering what happened there. No more interaction comes, creating a totally negative experience as a player.

What is most interesting is that I was already trying to kill the mummy without resulting in my instant death, what you put me in a position to defy my character and continue to more safely fight the mummy (i.e. chance of success) or go out and die. Thats fine, I have no problem with that, I have a problem with no interaction after it. It was a utter negative experience for me as a player, does that sound right?

This game should not be how much crap you can put up with until the immortals decide you have put up with it enough to get a quest power. This would not be so much of an issue if this had not happened with now three characters of mine. Perhaps my IP has a sign on it that says "screw with this one". If this is just isolated to me, I don't have much of a problem either, but if this happens to other players, including newer ones, that negative experience begins to define their time on CF and more likely than not, they bolt, never to return.

And finally, we would be having this discussion even if I was the most successful character ever. These are issues as a player, that are not based on success of a character. I attempt to better what I am in involved in. If feedback, which includes negative feedback, results in a response similar to your last line, I won't give my feedback any more because it seems to fall on deaf ears. I had thought player feedback, both negative and positive, is encouraged. Just another step toward walking away.

This would not be so much of an issue if this had not happened with now three characters of mine. Perhaps my IP has a sign on it that says "screw with this one".

Care to share how the staff treated your your previous mortal? I'd argue he was shown exceptional trust which invalidates all the paranoia you're throwing around.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

n/t

These are the negative experiences I had as a player with this character. No matter how successful or wonderful this character (or any other character) becomes these are still issues that I as a player did not enjoy. You can assume at this moment that all other experiences not listed were delightful, enjoyable and fun (Thank you). I do not see a reason to toot your horn about all the wonderful things this game offers all the time. I bring these to your attenion for one sole reason, betterment of interaction with other players and newer players.

These experiences left vile tastes in my mouth as a veteran player. As a newer player I can see them as even more distasteful. Fine, if 1/3 of the mud enjoys this kind of interaction or would give their left arm for it, there are still 2/3s of the mud you are forgetting about (which happens to be majority). I'm all for interesting and fun interaction with immortals (difficult or otherwise). I am not for giving out candy or throwing around quest powers. Nor am I for putting players in impossible situations (a chance breeds fun/challenge, impossibilities breeds frustration and negative fun stick time). I am also against having a wholely negative experience in CF, one that would drive away newer players, which this mud is in dire need of.


Lastly, as for the rest of the goodbye note. That is the reason I lost interest in the character. I did not attack anyone, nor make accusations, I illustrated what things I didn't like and asked questions of the immortals if this was the goals you were seeking with the interaction. I'm not trying to start conspiracy theories here, I am speaking from my experience. Yes this staff gave my previous characters mucho props, and I am thankful for all that, but that does not mean that every interaction or goodbye note from that point on I must be totally positive and glowing.

The basic and undeniable fact here is that an Immortal interacted with a player and from that interaction the player brought nothing but negative feelings. That this kind of event has happened not as an isolated incident, but across the span of three characters, more than one occasion for each. This helps proves either a) other players are also experiencing this and may be having the same feelings or b) (which is tongue in cheek) the immortals just have it out for my IP, hence the comment.

We can turn your argument against itself. Are you saying that if I get immortal interaction I cannot comment on its quality? That I must be content with just getting it and not comment on how it makes me as a player feel? If we look upon immortal interaction as a gift, I would rather not get a gift that is given in a fashion that leaves the player wondering what they did wrong or feeling screwed, or in any way feeling negative about it. I as a player have no clue that you didn't see the end of the interaction, but I assume you did, and have an extremely reasonable reason to believing that.

You have many options, including utterly ignoring and discounting this player's thoughts on the matter, which is fine. But remember that if one person in a class asks a question, most likely 20 others have the same question but did not want to, too scared of, or wish to speak up about it. I firmly believe that is also the case here. And what is most interesting about this is that those who have been chased off by this are not here to support my point of view, because they are gone.

I want CF to be a better place, and I'm attempting do it here, maybe I'm far off with this point, but at least one person seems to somewhat agree with me on this board.

Let me say two things first. One, I know nothing about your character, I never watched him, don't really remember hearing anything about him, so on. Two, I don't like posting in threads like this where it seems to be quickly turning into "the blame game" as someone said. That said, here's my input.

The only facts I have in all of this is what you, Amaranthe and Khasotholas posted, so bear that in mind. You were offered the option to be a leader, or to decline being a leader. It was in your role not to turn down the ancients so you took it. Now you kept to your roleplay, which you say forced you into the position, but then broke from your role because you didn't want to be a #### leader. The note thing, was it hard to say in whatever giant accent you were using "Hey Kahso, love to do this and all, but that ain't me, ain't gonna happen."? Echoes. I toss people random echoes for the hell of it just for ambiance, make the world seem a bit more alive. From what I've read you got some echoes about a scent, not the ancients telling you to go kill some guy which according to your role you'd have to go do.

So what's my point you ask? It's this. None of us (the immortals) are playing your character, nor are we trying to wrest control of it from you. We try to do things that we hope will be entertaining on some level to you, that you are free to react to however you will. I've had immteraction in the past that I've said "No thanks, just isn't me." to, and there was no smiting or immortal telling me what a tool I am. It comes down to choice. You choose how to respond, not us. I know that's coming across as trying to say it's all your fault, but frankly I don't think there is a "fault" here. The imms tried to make the game better for you, whether or not it was suited to your character. You chose to go along with it, whether or not it went with your role. And a last comment, just because you get some echoes doesn't mean an epic quest is about to form around you. Maybe it'll lead into something, maybe it won't. Just take it for what it is.

I don't fully understand his posts, but I think maybe this could illustrate one aspect of what I think is being said.

I am a paladin, and my role says I will never fail to face evil, to the death.

If an imm then puts an evil mob in my way, I am obliged (by my role) to face it to the death. I can't say "That's not really me" because my role forces me into it. Fine. Dying can still be a good thing, even with a full-looting. But if that's all that happens, and you don't get a fuzzy echo or something to make you feel better about it, it seems a shame, because what, as you note, is something that makes things more interesting for players, ends up being badly received. Just something acknowledging the sacrifice you just made for your role (like an echo) is enough to turn what could be a bitter experience into a worthwhile one (for many players). Sure, some will still complain because their bonus questform didn't hit for unspeaks, but little things like an extra echo after a bad experience caused by role make a big difference for most players.

That Amaranthe wasn't around to give that extra echo. Ok. But Thresinok's feedback is still constructive to the extent that you know that such an echo (or whatever) would be appreciated in cases where Amaranthe, or any other imm, is willing and able to give it.

It may not change what happened already, which doesn't sound like anyone went wrong, but it could be something for imms to keep in mind in future, when they might not otherwise think of tossing an extra echo to a squashed character.

I think most imms toss out what they can, when they can. I don't think anyone starts something with a mortal and then when it doesn't go well, thinks "Ptah, what a loser. How boring. I'm going to wander off and do something else now." Of course the imms do realize that mortals want as much/complete a reaction as they can get. I remember once a follower of mine, a fairly new player.. I sent a pecho or dream or something to inspire him to come to my shrine. He didn't know the way as well as I expected, and he got horribly lost for a long period of time and died twice trying to get there before I finally had to log off in a hurry. Poor kid. My lack of response to him had nothing to do with thinking he sucked, and while he didn't get his pat on the back that day, he got it later on. From the sound of it Khast and I both had plans to similarly give Thres his dues had he felt inclined to stick around. I'm sure most players would be willing to endure a disappointing death or uncomfortable RP challenges and ultimately get a tattoo, an extra legacy or a special weapon as a reward. Keep in mind, Thres already had a last name, a minor leader perk, and a title (separate from his leader title), with more planned for him. I hardly see him as a neglected character left in a lurch.

From the tone of Thresinok's post, somehow I don't think a pecho of a scent fading and the Ancients howling would have made the experience worth it as far as he was concerned, even though I certainly would have done something like that if circumstances permitted.

n/t

Although I agree with you to a certain extent...

- I don't fully understand his posts, but I think maybe this could illustrate one aspect of what I think is being said.

- I am a paladin, and my role says I will never fail to face evil, to the death.

Many paladins have this in their role. I've never seen one try to take down the Slayer who roams through Galadon trying to spread evil. Why? Because it's not realistic. Sometimes we have to modify our behavior whether we like it or not. If we didn't, technically, every paladin would con-die at the first rank.

Killing the slayer is completely doable for a hero paladin, and a piece of cake if said paladin is a shield spec :p

I'm sure there are a large number of people out there, myself included, who are like "I'd love the opportunities this guy was given." Waaaaaaaaa! You lost 1/3 con and your shinies. In the words of the wise Adam Sandler....woopideedoo!

All I can say further on the matter is that you're complaining for having a well-liked character that got imm attention and opportunities (none of which you had to accept, at least as far as I'm concerned.)

That you are upset for getting leadership position and title that the Ancients specifically gave you the opportunity to reject precisely because of your role is beyond me.

That you are upset over a solitary death that you somehow manage to blame on a few personal echos that described a scent, is further beyond me.

And that you sought out a deity for religious purposes and then receive an involved immteraction in response and then complain about said response is so beyond me, I can't even fathom it.

You forgot your last name. Did that annoy you too?

Player feedback, both negative and positive is encouraged, but I think Wilhath had a good point in saying there are plenty of players that would give their character's right arm to have your experience, and I know Khast and I both give immteractions that many players have enjoyed in the past.

If I were in the habit of checking IPs, I would politely bow out take note of you and make sure to save my limited time and effort for someone who would enjoy it. However, I don't do that, either. You were presumed to be any other mortal and treated thusly, by me anyways, and it was not in an effort to "screw you" as you so delightfully imply.

I'm not coming down on you in any way other than it seems like you're not seeing the gist of what he's trying to say. I agree there's nothing wrong with immteraction. But likewise, you or anyone saying other people would be more than happy for immteraction is a foolish point to make. I'm sure somewhere there's a person who's on fire who would be happy to have someone urinate on them but that doesn't mean anything in this situation.

The only real point is that

A) You interacted with a character who acted on your urgings.

B) The character got killed, it happens and no it's not your fault.

c) Another two seconds of your time in a show of empathy would have turned this from a negative experience into a positive one.

Now you could have simply said yeah, I'll keep that in mind in the future and let it all taper off, but instead you focus on that it's not your fault and he didn't have to do what you said. That's true, but taking the two seconds to share a little empathy because like it or not you contributed to the end result wouldn't have hurt you at all. Stop acting like you're just a well-intentioned victim of a disgruntled player. He chose to delete. But don't act like you gave him a gift and he squandered it, you tried to initiate something meaningful and when it didn't work out you left him hanging. Simple as that...

I'm sure somewhere there's a person who's on fire who would be happy to have someone urinate on them but that doesn't mean anything in this situation

Silly analogy. I don't know who or what was involved, but what if the patron IMM didn't see reason enough to show Thresinok empathy. Once again, I don't know the details. But if Khaso was telling me to accomplish something and I didn't, I would hope he wouldn't show me any further IMMteraction, because it would prolly involve a plague.

First of all, I don't even recall seeing the outcome of this particular incident. I gave him a few personal echoes, for fun, before I ended up getting distracted by other things. I often do this with mortals when the opportunity arises - because honestly most mortals enjoy it or at least seem to enjoy it, and I've often gotten comments or e-mails thanking me for such things. While most mortals would prefer very involved immteraction, I've found that given the choice between a tidbit or nothing, most would prefer the tidbit. That's often the choice I have, and so I throw out tidbits when I can, because I think people enjoy it, and I enjoy it.

I have no idea if it was another two seconds or another twenty minutes before things ended sourly, but regardless, "Just another two seconds of your time" are obviously the words of someone without a demmanding toddler.

I didn't give him a gift that he "squandered", but he was given "gifts", if you will, of time and effort that he's basically spitting at. I don't expect someone to like every gift I give them, but I expect them to be cordial and appreciative that it was given to them with a genuine spirit.

What I don't expect is that person to say, "Why did you give me this crappy gift? Do I have a "screw me" sign on my forehead? This gift sucks so much, I'm going to make a point of publically throwing in the garbage because it's such a crappy gift, it's ruined my day!"

This is basically what Thresinok is doing here, as I see it. I am sorry if an immteraction is not enjoyable for someone or if it didn't turn out with the outcome they'd like, but I don't think that's reason to make the outrageous claim that the immteraction was given in utter ignorance with the intention of screwing someone over or making their experience suck. Obviously, many complimentary things were said about Thresinok by myself and others that show that's the furthest thing from the truth.

Cast in the light of further facts, knowing you didn't see the conclusion and so forth does make a difference so given the circumstances it makes sense that you didn't follow up with anything. I obviously only speak for myself but if an Imm pushes me towards something and I follow up... well I'd prefer someone who doesn't have the time not confuse the day to day happenstance of my character's life if they aren't going to see it through. Granted that's me. The reason being that yes, if things turn out negatively and even if sometimes they don't, as a player you're left wondering where you messed up or the like.

Well in Thresinok's case, (and in the case of most things like this I'll throw at people) he wasn't really being pushed towards anything that ICly requires a "storyline" with a begining, middle, and conclusion. It was just a few pechoes of a scent he was picking up.

The character (as I understood it, and perhaps Thresinok can correct me if I'm wrong) strongly identified with his sense of smell and taste. Undead were part of the "Broken Order", and the undead in question had exactly 1 death away from con-death. When I saw Thresinok and the other Outlanders trying to hunt him, I sent him some echoes about a particularly maddeningly strong scent coming from his prey. To me, it was just a fun way to add ambiance that (I felt) fit his character, and to give a vague hint that there was something special about this particular hunt - perhaps one that he would share with the other Outlanders.

I'm guessing from what Thresinok has said here, that he took the "maddening" part of the scent to mean he had absolutely no choice but pursue the mummy recklessly, and indeed, I can see how that would be consistent with his character. What details I do remember seeing I thought was a very cool reaction, but it wasn't something I was demmanding or necessarily expecting. If he had, say, just frothed at the mouth, restrained himself, and told his fellow Outlanders that the urge to pursue his hunt was almost made unbearable by the scent and stopped there, that would have been fine. I don't see how a pecho like this is horribly intrusive or character-altering or can be blamed 100% for an outcome. It wasn't the voice of the Ancients in his head saying "Kill the Mummy, NOW!" or anything like that, it was something he had the freedom to react to as he chose, as far as I was concerned. I'm not sure how an imm can be expected to predict the kind of roleplaying inflexibility he's referring to. (And FWIW, I see absolutely nothing wrong with creating a character with a strict and inflexible roleplay.. I just think if you do so, you have to embrace the consequences of that.)

Anyways, the "tidbits" I'm referring to are generally just that - little scents, sounds, or sights that seem to fit the moment. Not driving storylines or forced impulses that are intended to "control" characters. An Outlander might notice a rush of adrenaline as they flee from Imperials, hear a howl of triumph on the wind when they slay a Tribunal, or a marked follower of Amaranthe might notice a farmer remove his hat respectfully when they pass to enter my Temple. And I do know that sometimes people expect "more" from that.. on a few occasions I've thrown a tidbit like this to one of my followers and they immediately dart to my shrine and expect a long conversation, when really all I had was a few minutes to throw them a sign to let them know they are being noticed and appreciated. I'm sorry if that's disappointing, but there are also many people who just take it for what it is and enjoy it. :)

Being a player that has recieved those "tidbits" from you time to time with past characters, it makes things all the more fun.

I hope this unfortunate circumstance of different perspectives doesn't deter you from continuing to throw little gestures out there when you find the time an satisfaction to do so. It is appreciated.

-Rogue

He mentioned that his Role stated that he couldn't deny something the ancients asked him to do. So really, although you gave him the option to refuse, if you had thought about it, he really did not have that option without breaking role.

And relax, please stop treating this like a blame game. You're getting defensive, and that gives off negative vibes. He was just pointing out some flaws, constructive criticism, as part of a positive environment supporting feedback.

n/t

I agree that it's most likely true that this conversation wouldn't be happening, but you seem to be sidestepping the issue. Die-hard roleplayers 'will' take that risk, even if in sticking to their role and following the urgings of a world or environment that suddenly seems to be speaking to them to some degree means they will most certainly die. The failing isn't in dying or being full-looted, it's in being engaged indirectly by an Immortal who upon your defeat suddenly seems disinterested in continuing any form of interaction. Had he been victorious I'd dare say you'd have persued the interaction but as he wasn't and you didn't, it makes a player think 'thanks a whole helluva lot for 'nothing''. Even something as simple as as a pecho saying the winds howl softly, sharing the pain of your loss or whatever would go a long way to assauge the negative feelings that these kinds of immteractions/subsequent losses can have on a player. Side stepping this fact by saying it's not my fault he died, is kind of like handing a kid a gun and saying it's not my fault he used it. In one sense you're right, in the other you're wrong. (an extreme overkill example but you get the gist)

n/t

Man I hated fighting you, I tried to duke it out as best as I could without help, but eating DEMOS on an arial sword spec just sucks considering after 4/5 im dead. I think you got me a few times. You were a really skilled player and I enjoyed bickering with you.

AS far as that imm interaction I had the same thing happen onetime when some super mob duergars came to raid the guildmaster in TV. I defended against them and died in 3 rounds to mangles and other stuff. I had 2k tnl and when I died it was something like 20 I think the Imm gave me 500 exp. But you just gotta roll with the punches I suppose, after that experience I thought to myself, "I just made a defining point in my life i will defend this at all costs" ohh well good luck with the next

Actually, I did read your role, and I think I pretty much understood it. That didn't stop me from asking you to do what I wished you to do. If you don't want character growth, whether it be good or bad, by immortal involvement, don't seek out an immortal. I would have been truly interested in seeing what would have happened if you followed through. Khasotholas may use what tools come to him, but he also tries to reshape ones he thinks can be of more use to him. I thought your role and slant on the religion was truly unique, and for the most part, I agreed with you. Sorry I aided in you losing heart, because you had the potential to be a truly unique, memorable character.

means he is not a Nok anymore. That was the core point of what Nok was in your religion. He is Death, anything beyond that is left to other non-Noks in the Perfect Order, that is none of his concern. Everything is a cog in the Perfect Order, thousands of cycles all spinning on their own cogs, everything doing what they were created to do all in perfection, Thar-Eris = Perfect Order. By asking a Nok to do something beyond what he was initially designed to do, they become broken, and if the Order works as it should, be destroyed and replaced. That was the reason why Imperials were killed. I had thought I got that across to you when we had the discussion about Emperors. Person is born a queen hornet, person is born a drone hornet, person is born a worker hornet. A worker hornet NEVER becomes the queen hornet in nature or Thar-Eris.

I didn't know that immortal interaction required your character to grow. You don't ask your guard dog to go and find someone to write a note to the robbers, because its impossible. That is why it was a unique slant. And I'm not putting all the blame on you, I take a majority for my failure, because of the "do everything the ancients ask" part of my role which in hindsight should not have been in there. What is the worst thing is that roles like this can only be attempted once and any other time, its looked down on with contempt. Too bad. Thanks for the limited time you gave me, I know your time is precious.

I'm sorry you seem very focused on the bard note. Asking a drooling, viscious Nok to have a bard write a note didn't seem like a big deal to me. It seemed like something which would take your character in the same direction, but with a different slant. Your character was inflexible, fine. I suppose that's part of what made him unique.

No, immortal interaction isn't required for your character to grow. It can help, but certainly not required. I didn't ask my guard dog to write a note to the robbers. Your character was capable of speech, and often was in the company of bards. Having you speak to a bard and having him jot down words didn't seem completely unreasonable to me.

As for this being a one time role... probably. Which is the true shame, because I quite enjoyed reading it, and watching you. However, I tend to think you're capable of equaling, if not bettering what you accomplished with Thresinok's role.

Just so you know, every time I'd log on, I'd check when the last time you logged on was, because I wanted to catch up with you. As the days went by, and I saw you weren't logging on, it kinda made me sad. Very interesting character.

Khas

Just so you know, every time I'd log on, I'd check when the last time you logged on was, because I wanted to catch up with you. As the days went by, and I saw you weren't logging on, it kinda made me sad. Very interesting character.

Ditto

n/t

whos' th.. aww skip it.
I loved nok. 'cept for one time down by the chasm.
where you jumped on the guy I was fighting.

I oughtta..

What a cool character. What a fun character to be around. Becoming Nightreaver had to have been a stretch for your role, but you sucked it up and really made the cabal a better place.

Anyway, take care, good luck.

Ack! Why? Just curious. I loved Nok!