Tue Oct 12 12:39:44 2004

At 2 o'clock AM, Day of Deception, 23rd of the Month of the Battle
on the Theran calendar Rouchevien perished, never to return.

Race:	storm
Class:	paladin
Level:	51
Alignment:	Good
Ethos:	Neutral
Cabal:	FORTRESS, the Fortress of Light
Age:	471
Hours:	470

But why we have "Defiance" in the game if it is against paladin's code to travel to Kuo-Toa, obtain and keep it?

You are over-simplifying the situation. In this thread, Rouch's player actually admitted to picking his play times by using his other characters knowledge so that he could time his entry into Thera after reboots: ie, the optimal time for requesting gear. That is ####ed up on so many levels I don't know where to start, and why the imms didn't notice it when other players did or why they didn't call him out on it is beyond me.

Rom.

Knew Rouchevien since the Forest of Nowhere all the way to hero. Very focussed, no-nonsense, efficient and decisive paladin from what I could see ranking up with you. Very enjoyable as such.

At hero, I followed you about a lot with your gearing, learned a lot about gearing, and though you died a few times trying to get Defiance I don't think you're that gear-hungry. A few others I followed to help with gearing were like you..you all knew what you wanted and where/how to get what you want. Nothing wrong with that.

Besides, you helped me much with my and others' gear too. When a Maran dwarf fell and was near naked, you brought me along to help me gather some clothes for him so that we could counter-attack the Imperials who fell him (I forgot that dwarf's name). When Lek was fully looted, or near it, you were always one of those who brought me or helped me gather eq without my even asking. Not selfish at all. Those times were very much appreciated while I was frustrated with loosing so many things and dying again and again.

Don't think Rouchevien was that bad for a paladin, and from what I saw, was mostly wise in his decisions as to when and whether to counter-attack and what to do in the meantime. That doesn't mean he was adamant when the other Fortress members wanted to give it a shot at retrieval against many Imperials. In fact, he would go along and aid as much as he could. Well played, enjoyed the char.

Paladins with a vice can be neat.

Paladins who have a vice to make up for a player finding parts of the class distasteful seem lame though to me.

Rouch, you should take away something from this thread. There are a number, and I can count at least 5 individuals who believed you were a gear hungry, greedy paladin who violated the code on at least a few levels. These people do not sit in a dark room and plan out how to destroy deletion or goodbye threads, nor are they "jealous people" or "dead haters", because if that was true we would all hate each other through and through. All of them came to the conclusion on their own through interactions with you. When more than 1 or 2 people start coming to the exact same conclusion, you should see it as less of an attack but as something to look as about your character.

Despite you believing everyone is out to get you, or that this is a flame war, you should take away from this some kind of understanding that it is possible you did not play the perfect character. I for one have to agree with the individuals who believe you were obsessed with equipment, and keeping it. Villager thieves would peek you and were stunned/impressed enough at your inventory to make a conscious effort to comment about it on cb. Mostly along the lines of, "Why is a paladin carrying around X, which he can't even use?".

I had nothing against your character. You were extremely tough with all the virtues and equipment you had gathered. You had no problem fighting Jinroh one on one, and most of the time it was an effort in futility on my side. So good luck with your next, but also consider your paladin was not the perfect paladin. What would have been nice if this "trait" that people are commenting on was actually in your role instead of the player bleeding through the character.

On a side note, I as a player hate over-virtued paladins and the immortals should spend some time retesting their playability and how they interact with each other. I have seen level 39 paladins take down all four imperial inners without having to flee at all and without prepping with anything but what they are given. And hero warriors get killed in two rounds. Something to look at.

On the perfect paladin, if it came across in my posts that this was my opinion of my roleplay, it is a miscommunication. I don't think I played a perfect paladin at all.

I am very surprised that village thieves would peek into my inventory as you say and describe the things that I have. If you have a log, I'd be curious what it is they say I am holding.

I also don't believe "everyone is out to get me", but I have followed the threads revolving Rouchevien on dioxide following one battle log, and also the threads here in this battlefield forum, and subsequently one that was started by Shadowmaster over there. I believe Vladimir also goes on to describe me as someone who is "the last one to enter a fight, the first to loot, and if I didn't have a title he wouldn't know I was a paladin". Since I loved this character, and played it to the best of my ability, I will attempt to close this part of my cf history and moveon.

On obsession with equipment, I would really like to address this point more. I have in another post, detailed the sort of behaviour I felt would warrant being "obsessed". I am of the opinion that maintaining the best equipment you can isn't obsession, unless it affects your gameplay. I made absolutely sure that the equipment I had was constantly in "play", because I was in very many battles. I would suggest that obsession be defined better than opposed to possession and playing smart.

I note your point that "hey, everyone is saying you're obsessed, reflect on it". I have reflected, and am sharing my own reflections and motivations here. This was proved in the way I played.

Does having good equipment, going to lengths to get it, equate with being obsessed?

Were you obsessed? Answer these questions might make it more clear. When you decided to go for these very nice goodie only items in really tough areas, did you already have all the evil cabal items? Did you make an effort to find and kill the evils in your range? Did you actually find them and kill them at least once? Were there other goodies around that needed equipment more than you, i.e. the basics? Were there things that those with you, and you should have been doing instead of spending 2 plus hours in Kuo-toa getting all the shinies? How many times did you lose your cabal item, or lose evil cabal cabal item because you were down there, or in other nasty areas? Whenever these certain goodie unique items were in did you try for them? If another goodie had it, did you try to trade for it? When using locate object were 90% of its uses looking for these choice items? All good questions to help you understand if you are obsessed. Now I don't want to turn this into some Seventeen (tm) Are you obsessed? Quiz, but you get the point.

There were many people who reported your position to me, constantly, and when you were not roaming eastern road or raiding, you were gathering things for yourself, i.e. defiance. In the mines of sitran, or Kuo-toa lair. Or going for the stoneform, etc. All these items are great and increase your effectiveness a little bit, but think about how much time you spent getting them and what you could have been doing.

As for thieves. Jinroh didn't ask them or command them, thieves peek, its call curiousity, its what they do. But village thieves do not speak up on the cb very much about what they see in peeking unless it is unusual in nature, i.e. applicant carrying potions, etc. Or in this case, they are actually shocked enough to mention it because its extremely out of the ordinary. No logs, I only logged fights and posted them a while back. Maybe in there there may be a comment about you.

You have a lot of people of the CF community who think you obsessed about equipment, I being one of them. You may see it as "making your character more effective to fight evil", which is fine, but you must also understand that you may be wrong. Then again us 7 or 8 "jealous haters" as some people say we are *boggle* may be wrong. Granted I have not seen a Fortress person step up and say you are not.

Good luck with your next and all that jazz.

Thank you for your paragraph. I'll deal with all your questions piecemeal.

1. Did you already have all the cabal items when you went to go for goodies?

Generally, yes. Getting cabal items was a priority for me. If I am on, it would be to ensure that these cabal items were with the Fortress. however, it reached a point where I would solo raid, get the item in say ten mintues, only to have the outer guardian slain by someone out of range in half the time. For the record, I would attempt to raid every time I logon, that was a priority.

2. Did I make an effort to kill evils in your range?

Definitely. This is a equal priority to raiding. Raiding was my primary means of engaging people, I have fought most of my battles at chasm or on imperial lands. I would have raided village to get you to engage if I could. Equipment was always a secondary alternative to this.

3. Did I actually find them and kill them at least once?

I would say I killed mroe than 60% of the evils in my range in the entire playing time. The remainder 40% were either too slippery like you, or I never even saw them to fight.

4. Were there other goodies around you that needed equipment?

There are always goodies around who need equipment. I have lost count on the number of people asking me to help them re-equip. I have lost count on the eq I have handed out, and the aid I have given. Since until the "Golron death" incident, I hardly ever died, I actually spent very little time gathering eq since I maintained a single set. The rest of the time was spent helping others.

5. "Spending two hours in kuo toa getting shinies"

I have held defiance about four times, two times I went through hell to get in, and the other two was simple where I died once. It was never two hours in Kuo Toa except the first two attempts, so you're really looking at 6 hours tops getting defiance in kuo toa out of a play tiem of 470 hours.

I never got the stoneform amulet, nor did I spent anytime in sitran getting the necklaces there. (I don't like those necklaces) Time spent in sitran was 100% levelling other people.

6. "How many times did you lose your cabal item because you were down there"

Not more than once or twice, and when I did it was because I was alone, and there were three of four other tough raiders and I would have died/lost the item whether I was in the Fortress or not. In my memory, I can only remember ONE time when I was somewhere else and couldn't return for a cabal raid, and I was remorseful personally about it.

On a related matter, I must have taken enemy items and retrieved items at least 10 times more than fighting in the fortress, simply it wasn't common for people to fight me in the fortress unless they had very superior odds.

7. "If another goodie had an item, did you try to trade for it?"

I can remember a handful of times, where I would try to trade something yes. If a thief has a troll amulet and I have a blademaster gloves, I would try to trade for it seems it seems like a decent trade. I would never offer a poor trade, but in general most of my equipment was gained from my own efforts, spoils of deaths. Nobody could call Rouchevien a merchant in any sense of the word.

8 "Whenever these goodie items were in, did you try for them"?

Yes. But not to the detriment of my superceding duty as a Maran paladin.

9 "Village Thieves peeking into your inventory"

Again, I have always maintained that I only held onto things that I needed. Your assertion without actual items suggests that I am holding onto things which I don't need, which I believe is hoarding. Since I don't think I did so, I would have liked if you would give me a specific example. Please see my above reference in terms of Kuo Toa, Sitran, Stoneform.

10 "A lot of people think you're obsessed, you may be wrong"

Yes. I may be wrong. Yes, I may be right. I don't think I should be marked as obsessed jsut because many people think so. I am countering specific examples of being obsessed, to show that it's a biased observation of my overall playing style. Since I know my personal motivation, and I know how I spent my time online, I'm pointing those out as a defence to the "obssessed" accusation.

Was it your paladin (not Rouchevien -- forget the name) that took Daurwyn to kill the Kuo-toa king, when I'd never been there before, and I died when my waterbreathing or gillgrowth was dispelled?

n/t

I had two virtues and you still seemed to kick my ass handily enough. Then again maybe I just suck. I also found it "trying" to take down all four Empire innerrs. It was pretty much given that I'd be able to get it done, but as a shield paladin it took forever and I was usually near-dead (and out of mana) by the time it was done. Healing curse and kotegaeshi were the main problems.

I gave my own observations of the character from my own point of view as several characters who interacted with this one. I don't get the current trend of "criticism = bad and must be removed" thats running rampant on the forums these days.

Not everyone is going to think someone was a good example of the class they play. If we keep sheltering people from negative opinions of their behavior, how are they supposed to learn?

.

for anything negative appearing on these boards whatsoever.

There's a difference between supplying constructive criticism and flaming the character with liberal use of obscenities. Review our Forum Rules, available on the main forums page.

Posts which do not comply with those rules will be deleted or edited at the discretion of the moderators.

The purpose of the Battlefield is to discuss characters, exchange memories, and give people feedback about what they did well or not well. Flame wars and inflammatory remarks don't help anyone, and we decided a long time ago that our forums won't be a breeding ground for them.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I will say only that it appears only certain people are affected by this. I.e it is alright for people to get flamed by the imms, or for certain people to be able to flame. This only aggravates the us-vs-them attitude that seems to prevail, at least from my observations.

My own observations of Rouchevien were that he was a gear-hoarder who was obsessed with gear even moreso then Tulvaluthian was. The fact that he was a tattooed paladin with virtues just makes me wonder what the paladin code is for anyways.

Being obsessed with gear and being a gear hoarder are two different things.

Did I like eq? Yes. Did I try to get the best set? Yes. Did I compromise how I saw the code to get it? No. My conscience on this is clear.

A gear hoarder is someone who

a. Plays a character with primary focus on getting exotic, good, equipment
b. Holding on to things that are sought after, but that the class can't use
c. Avoiding fights so that they can hold onto the gear
d. Logging on just the right amount to maintain the gear and get past the in built cf codes
e. Spending all their time in the game getting equipment


a) I did not play Rouchevien this way, whatever your impressions. I did focus on getting good equipment, but it was always as a means to an end, to combat evil, to destroy the enemies of the fortress, and to be at optimal efficiency as a Maran at all times.

b) I did not hold onto things I did not use or need.

c) I almost never avoided any fight that wasn't suicidal, if someone pays for the premium battlefield this should show there.

d) I loved this character, and toward the end it was 470 hours. If I did not log on as much, it was more to ration the time I had left in him and to keep him alive more than anything else.

e) As anyone in empire or scion will note, if I am on, I am raiding their cabals, and Fortress will be holding their item.



Shadowmaster, you have had it in for me for quite a while, and I don't really know why. I remember travelling with Tulvaluthian, my last memory was when you were trying to get me to attack Scion, against very poor odds. You seemed annoyed when I didn't want to go with you, and I think you got killed, full looted and deleted shortly after. Other than that, are your vitriolic posts on dioxide. Now that Rouchevien is dead, let your ire die as well.

I'm going to butt in with my $.02 on your character.

1: As Kungkruk, I did think you were too obsessed with gear to be a virtued paladin. You got smacked down I believe by an Imm for either gear hoarding or ganging, I can't remember which. You would quite blatantly quit if you lost your stuff, and then log in immediately after a crash. I was there several times long enough to see it happen.

2: HOWEVER, you kicked ass. Lots of ass. You were the one paladin aside from Lariya, who is a 'special' case, that I couldn't compete with without major firepower. I imagine this is the case with lots of people, both in the Fortress (jealous haters), and outside the Fortress (angry dead haters). Is logging in immediately after a crash to go request all the gear that was lost and sac'd by enemies bad? Well, I guess not technically, especially considering after you regained your clothing you would generally stay on and resume raiding/smacking down evil.

So the long and the short of it is, I can see how people have a point about your character being 'less than paladinly' in certain aspects. But that point is diluted by the fact that most likely it's OOC frustration that is causing them to bring it to these forums. If you died left and right and never won a fight, nobody would care what gear you had.

My $.02

I was not smacked down. I was a Sounder of a Clarion, and I lost the tattoo in this manner. Thenrek and I were raiding Scions, and there was a Scion bard that defended. I can't remember if we took the scepter or not, but within the next few minutes, we ended up chasing him out of the chasm, into the desert, into the eastern, onto the oceans.

This chasing down a single Scion although done as part of a raid, was seen as dishonorable. I lived with that chiding, and sought at all times to regain the tattoo, and was put through a series of tests. At the last, I regained the tattoo.

Let's take your points further.

I believe that one can only go overboard with gear if it detracts from your primary duty. I fought as much as I could, the gear was for that purpose.

ON QUITTING UPON DYING

I don't believe that I'm the only person who does this, and while I have done it before, there are equally times when I have not. Nobody likes to die, and there have been times in Rouchevien's life when evil dominated, I would die a few times, sometimes in the midsts of requesting. Because the mud doesn't crash, the equipment doesn't repop, so it's either wear snow worm and garnet rings or wait for a reboot. I'm not sure what is wrong with this, unless it's general concensus that if you lose your equipment, you shouldn't wait for a reboot to log back in and request it.

Equally, there are times when I will soldier on half naked, and enter into fights with less than optimal hp and save vs spell, and pay the death price. While I appreciate this is the "valiant" thing to do, I can't help but think it's more vain glorious than valiant.

that you shouldn't wait for a reboot to log on and regear. When you log on, you shouldn't be taking any account of what condition the mud is in, otherwise you are, to some extent, "cherry picking" playing times to suit you, in a sense.

Not saying that if a reboot comes along when you are on, that you shouldn't log back on and immediately request stuff. More saying that to wait until you know a reboot happens has similarities with waiting for your range to get onesided or waiting for enemies to be raiding (and I'm not saying you did either of these, since I haven't a clue what you did in these respects). Both require knowledge of what is happening in Thera before you log on though, and thus I think are frowned upon by most players.

The only way that you would know the mud crashed would be to either log on another char or have OOC friends tell you. Either way is borderline cheating in my opinion. You are using another character or OOC friends to give you information about an OOC event, a crash, to benefit your character. How would Rouchevian know that the gear is instantly in? I can't say anything on the other accusations as I never interacted with you, but this admission does make me believe the others more.

Not that it really matters any longer, Rouchevian is dead now, everyone should just let it go. Good luck on your future chars.

Pendragon_Surtr

So in a hypothetical scenario where a person has a level 51 goodie who gets killed and full looted and there isn't much of anything to request since the mud hasn't crashed for a few days.. if that person cannot derive any joy or fun of playing his half naked character and decides to play and level his lowbie transmuter, then if there is a reboot, he should, on the basis of fairness and consensus, keep on playing his transmuter even though he's dying to re-equip and play his level 51?

I genuinely believe you shouldn't change the character you play in order to gain any advantage. Sure, it might be less fun for you, but you've hit the nail on the head when you say "in the interests of fairness". Maybe I'm wrong in thinking that's the concensus, but I imagine that that is the consensus.

A paladin is fairly nasty with just a basic set plus a good weapon, which you could gather (minus the weapon) by going somewhere safe and just summoning mobs to you. I completely agree that regearing is a pain in the butt, and yes, I admit that I too will often log off after a demoralising defeat, but being a summoner (even one with slow mana regen) means you can do it without getting pk'd whilst you are at it. You may not be slaughtering people left right and centre as a paladin when your damroll is only 20, but you are probably still making them have to run away. Sure, it's less fun to rest instead of having bracers to regen your mana and stuff, but it can still be fun for you, I hope. People could call me a hoarder because I avoid fights that don't suit me, with most of my characters, but some of the most fun ones I've played have been the ones that never had good gear. Just no one remembers them because they weren't very deadly, but they were still a blast to play.

To share with you a little bit about my motivations, Rouchevien was rolled at a time when Fortress was weak. This was at or around the time around Yanacek's deletion, empire pretty much had the advantage in numbers and kills and I wanted to change that. Thus spawned a paladin that I decided from day one was NOT going to be fodder, was actually going to be killing, was going to have the best armor and weapons to maximise this. I decided I was not going to try to be popular, but to be player-kill effective. Was I just trying to get as many numbers on my pk score as I could? In part yes, but only as a consequence of my singleminded goal, to play a killing paladin.

Re-equipping isn't just slapping on stuff that's available. Re-equipping is having a tactical strategy in mind, and equipping to meet that objective.

It's clear ot me that people who play goodies who are charging into battle half naked and dying, occasionally winning but generally losing, are very popular. I really can't identify with this, as I was focused on taking down without being taken down. However, although I did not expect to win a popularity contest, I was unpleasantly surprised at the vehemence of the flames, which are still continuing. I will respond to this thread for a little while just to tie up loose ends.

>It's clear ot me that people who play goodies who are charging
>into battle half naked and dying, occasionally winning but
>generally losing, are very popular. I really can't identify
>with this, as I was focused on taking down without being taken
>down.

Other then the rant about "Chaotic Stupid" behavior, one of the most annoying things concerning ethos/align I've faced especially as a guy who plays a lot of Paladins is the expectation that "Orderly Good" should equal "Stupid Good".

Often the complaints of:

-You're gear hording.
-Dishonorable.
-Cowardly

Often mean:

-You're staying flexable by having gear that overcomes your vulns and weapons that take advantage of mine and taking the time to get good gear.
-You ganged me back or fought with sound tactics or got a friend to keep me from fleeing.
-You're not running like an idiot into my obvious ambush/snare/quicksand, 3 man gang-bang, ect.

It's like some people feel that Laws and Codes of behavior exist only to be taken advantage of and manipulated to the detriment of those who follow them by those who don't.

IMHO, the Paladin Code is not a suicide pact.

I've paid for Rouch's PFB and while I can't snoop, obviously, I do know that paladins are watched very closely and the IMMs don't hesitate to strike-down bad paladins. I honestly think if he was half as bad as he's being accused of being, he wouldn't of gotten his tat back.

Whilst the paladin code still includes things like "Never abandon your allies, and if you must, you will die" you shouldn't be surprised that people expect paladins to die when they could easily live.

Clearly, there are situations where that code is crap, like if you have a suicidal ally. But the code needs to be changed if expectations are to be changed.

"if you must"

I've always read that as you're not expected to be a coward, but I seriously doubt all paladins are expected to fight in a manner consistant with "assisted suicide" :P

How much fun would that be? I mean, for the paladin because enemies of paladins would like them to be suicidal, of course. :)

Speaking of which, I've never felt that we were expected to show dedication to our cabals by dying stupidly or raiding in situations that are pretty much "assisted suicide".

Do you think people think it is expected? That even some goodies expect paladins to be punching bags or others raid in hopeless situations because they're afraid of getting booted from their cabal?

Personally, I think the expectations on paladins are there because of the code. If you don't like the expectations, then tone down the code. A simple "Your gifts are to be used for the salvation of Thera. Don't give your life in vain" or "Never abandon someone you are in a position to help" instead of "Never abandon... and if you must, you will die".

Also, there are certain aspects of "game-play" that I also believe are relevant. For example, a paladin isn't very good at lagging, and I think this is one of the few things that balances the class. That balance is weakened, in my opinion, if they start taking part in gangs (no connection with Rouchevien here despite it being on his thread, simply a comment on the class). Paladins are extremely durable and do a lot of damage. I always saw the balancing factors as the code, making you walk into unfavorable situations (not certain death, but simply things like not leaving until others have left etc.), and not ganging, which allows you to overcome the inherent weaknesses of the class, such as the poor lagging ability.

Having said that, I ganged a couple of times with my paladin. Actually, three times, but one of those times Amora and the buggy herbs killed my gang of three. Nevertheless, I still believe that the raw defense and offense of the class is balanced by the difficulty of stopping people fleeing, and that difficulty disappears when you have others to lag for you. In the same way, the code acts to restrict options to paladins in a fashion that prevents the class from being overpowered.

Ulthur had a parable about a man with a blade, that represented his honor. Everything he did was honorable, and because of his situation, his blade represented his honor. Can't remember why, but maybe it was something to do with it being given to him in connection with his honorable life or inherited from his honorable father or something.

Anyway, in this parable, the man with the blade is being chased through a forest by a horde of enemies. He comes to a high wall. He knows he can climb it if he just abandons his blade, for a moment. After all, he can probably come back and get it later, and to fail to abandon it would mean dying at the hands of the horde.

In Ulthur's parable, the man abandons his blade, and in doing so, effectively surrenders his honor (note this is not honor as parity).

I think that, even if you don't agree with the message, you can still see what Ulthur was getting at. He was advocating living a lifestyle purely based on a code of ethics, no matter what the cost. Whether you agree with this or not, this is the sort of stuff that "heroes" are made of in the stories. Now, we may know that heroes in cf are not remembered if they get steamrollered every time they fight (although those like Kamba are remembered for their heart). But deep down, I suspect that every cf player hopes to see the "knight in shining armour" and sets expectations of paladins accordingly. So that's why I think the "suicide" line of thought still has a lot of support, even if gameplay makes it impractical.

Alarian, thanks very much for paying for my premium battlefield. I hope the PK stats show to some extent that I was active in raids and hunting.

n/t

Ok...

A paladin who blatantly cared way too much about gear...
Who logged off his lowbie other char to gear his paladin after a reboot...
And who pretty much decided that those aspects of the code weren't very important...

Is rewarded now?

That's weird, here I thought the paladin code was the reason you got virtues...IE by sticking to it to the letter.

Its a pretty fine line to say defiance is not more than you need...I don't think you have to stand there and die but that you shouldn't leave anyone behind. Also, not having fun without being stacked IMHO is hardly the epitome of courage.

But whatever, if that's rewarded now I guess its time to roll up a gear whore gang-hungry paladin. Cherry picking playing times should take out all that nasty challenge from the game thankfully.

A paladin who blatantly cared way too much about gear...
Who logged off his lowbie other char to gear his paladin after a reboot...
And who pretty much decided that those aspects of the code weren't very important...

Is rewarded now?

These are, of course, your own personal assumptions. He certainly was not perfect, but neither is anyone else. Rouchevien was rewarded, punished, and redeemed over a long period of time.

That's weird, here I thought the paladin code was the reason you got virtues...IE by sticking to it to the letter.

Each paladin can emphasize certain aspects of the code and interpret the code in vastly different ways. A classic example of this debate involves Maran paladins vs. Tribunal paladins. Rouchevien was the former breed, with an emphasis on the efficient killing of evildoers.

Even the virtues highlight differences amongst individual members of the class. You have Maran paladins with Temperance/Fortitude, Acolyte paladins with Hope/Charity, and many other mixes in between. You get the virtues for executing your role - not so much for following some fixed/absolute interpretation of the Paladin code.

But whatever, if that's rewarded now I guess its time to roll up a gear whore gang-hungry paladin. Cherry picking playing times should take out all that nasty challenge from the game thankfully.

Rouchevien openly conceded that he was less than perfect. He was punished by having his tattoo stripped. He was never made a leader. He interacted well, aided others, and did his time before finally getting the tattoo back.

Perhaps you are a oversimplifying. Even if you cherry-pick your playing times (not that he did), Defiance doesn't just leap into your hands. There are more than a few "gear-intensive" Paladins whom I doubt would willingly share it with him. I think people are leaving out a fair measure of the player's skill, dilligence, and experience. Rouchevien faced trials and tribulations of his own, for which I don't think he is receiving enough credit.

and should not be encouraged, in the slightest.
I'm disgusted an imm is backing this sort of #### up.

"Shadowmaster, you have had it in for me for quite a while, and I don't really know why."

I haven't the faintest idea where you got this notion.

"remember travelling with Tulvaluthian, my last memory was when you were trying to get me to attack Scion, against very poor odds."

Yeah that was me trying to help you recover your item. You had that sick set and with me and you together we might have stood a chance. So much for using that uber-gear you had eh?

"You seemed annoyed when I didn't want to go with you, and I think you got killed, full looted and deleted shortly after."

Yep I did, I thought it was weak as hell you sat hiding from the Scions instead of showing some balls to go with that set, but thats just me.

"Other than that, are your vitriolic posts on dioxide."

What vitriolic posts? The ones where I questioned why you left Golron to die so you could save yourself? Yeah, I thought that was a poor example of paladinlyness and I said so.

"Now that Rouchevien is dead, let your ire die as well."

My ire was for how a character who is supposedly a bastion of goodness and a shining example of the light was more concerned with losing his set then fighting evil. You said poor odds, so you did not fight, well f*ck me does that mean you just wait until you are sure of victory to fight? Some paladin. Obviously I wasn't the only one to think this of Rouchevien, perhaps take some constructive criticism instead of instantly acting like we don't know anything.

I thought Rouchevien was a tough SOB. From someone who is actively trying to seek good gear, I am telling you Rouchevien was in my opinion way too gear hungry, and way too cautious considering his sets. Beyond that I enjoyed my interactions and felt you were a solid ally.

Your points are noted. I don't agree with them, but arguing here is just going to inflame things more.

Being obsessed with gear is bad for a paladin. Anyone who is obsessed with material posessions is GREEDY. Anyone who is obessed with the aquisition and the keeping of material posessions is GREEDY. You want me to spell it out in how many ways that is bad for a paladin?

*snip*

Are you out of your mind? Why the hell are you deleting part of the post where I said i was dissapointed in you posting that crap above? That it was stupid of you? What you cant take it?

Since when have you become so damn possessive about a character? ANd yes i was dissapointed that you posted that, it was stupid on your part. I thought you would have a bit more common sense, but i guess not.

Since when have you become so damn possessive about a character?

I have no clue who Rouchevien is. I'm aware the character existed, but I probably couldn't tell you anything beyond the fact that he was a hero paladin who was around for a while. I really have no incentive to defend or not defend this particular character over anyone else.

However, if people are going to pop up on our forums just to take cheap shots, that isn't helping anyone. Give your feedback (positive or negative), do so with a modicum of maturity, leave something that the other person can build on one way or another, and move on.

Put another way, I've seen what other boards look like when this sort of "you suck!!!" "no you suck1!!!!" stuff goes unchecked, and the result is a worthless cesspool. I wouldn't print it out and line a birdcage with it, out of respect for birds. That sort of "discussion" won't be going on here.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

hopefully my feedback will help future paladins who think about becoming gear whores and let their greed for gear surpass their religion. This was the case with this paladin, however you want to see it.

Having good equipment, or wanting to have good equipment, does not equate to being greedy. In the same way, there are people with lots of money who aren't greedy, and people with no money who are very greedy. The real assessment is the personal motivation behind that acqusition, and the actions that precede and follow the acqusition. I've already stated in other posts that the equipment was for a single purpose, and that is, to be an effective champion in a player killing sense, able to take cabal items, retrieve, and kill enemies along the way.

I would think that greed is exemplified in other ways: arguing over spoils, holding things you don't need, avoiding combat, amassing more than is necessary. I don't think Rouchevien was guilty of any of these.

gear whores to kick nearly everyone's butt. If you think so, i think you need to reevaluate your notion of paladins. YOu were a gear whore, and you keep defending it. Honor should have been your first and foremost trait noticeable by other characters, not your continual and raging hunger for gear. Do you get me or do you not get me?

Actually, equipment was primarily the reason why I was fairly successful in a pk sense. Having played many paladins over the last eight or so years, the right equipment does add a significant advantage. I suppose it's possible to kill people wearing snow worm and garnets, but it's easier to kill people if you're wearing better.

While honor was part of Rouchevien's role, his main role, and the way I played him, was to present as effective a player killing force on team good as I could. Perhaps I should have played a warrior, something less controversial than paladins, which many people have a diehard belief system of how they should, or should not act.

Actually, the only time I ever watch Rouch, he was passing
a hummingbird pendant to another paladin. Not sure if that
fits in to your 'gear whore' profile, Xan.

Granted, that's about all I know about this character.
Never really saw him, or heard of him, otherwise.


Grurk

I will say only that it appears only certain people are affected by this.

You're right. Feel free to ask Balrahd, incognito, or any of our other more constructive/mature posters how often a moderator has laid a finger on any of their hundreds of posts. Also feel free to ask the people who have changed handles 17 times, and run into problems with all of those handles. Also, ask someone like Vladamir who butted heads with us while he was formerly posting slanderous rants with regularity, but hasn't heard a peep from Team Moderator since he turned things around.

Is it such a problem to play a game without screaming at the other players? Why is this so difficult for you and for others?

You're welcome to call that "favoritism" if it soothes your feelings, or you can accept that it is a consequence of the content of the posts in question. But it's a single standard, not a double.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

"Is it such a problem to play a game without screaming at the other players? Why is this so difficult for you and for others?"

His deletion thread I thought was a chance for us to speak on our thoughts on his character. No one was screaming. I personally said I thought he was obsessed with gear and generally acting un-paladinly. Where is the screaming there?

"You're right. Feel free to ask Balrahd, incognito, or any of our other more constructive/mature posters how often a moderator has laid a finger on any of their hundreds of posts."

See thats just it, none of those posters have I heard make any type of criticisms of you guys or your decisions. However, back in the real world, not all of us believe the immstaff on CF farts perfume and pisses holy water, but some do. Using them as examples only proves that you guys want us to sugarcoat anything we say on your 'official' forums.

"You're welcome to call that "favoritism" if it soothes your feelings, or you can accept that it is a consequence of the content of the posts in question."

I don't need my feelings soothed, or the constant condescending tones of your post. By your own admission you know nothing about Rouchevien. So how are multiple people making baseless flames if we are all saying the same thing and you are offering no evidence to support anything but. From appearances it looks like you are defending his actions, even if that isn't the case. And that does make it a double standard because you generally do not comment on peoples battlefields posts. Any questions?

I think I've posted three times on this thread and that two of them were deleted, unless I changed my mind about posting the first two times and have forgotten, but I don't think I did.

However, in general I approve of deleting flames. Enough that if some of what I consider "unflamey" (such as my two that were deleted) gets deleted in the process, I can live with it. My post was negative in that it commented on people expecting a certain kind of behavior and then events supporting their expectations, but I thought was worth raising, since I'd be curious as to the answer, and Rouchevien, having now deleted, is free to give one. It was a reference to the battle where he left someone and they died. At the time, the hypothesis was that that maybe he was ordered to get out so that there would be someone to defend against a counterraid. Rouchevien could, presumably, tell us what the actual position was.

Personally, if I got the feedback Rouchevien got, I'd not be happy about it. However, I believe that it would probably change the way I'd play a paladin somewhat, and in that sense it is arguably constructive. Constructive criticism isn't necessarily any more fun to receive than baseless flaming, and I'm guessing the deletions are based on how deleted posts would make Rouchevien feel.

With respect to the battle you questioned, team good started out as an inferior force going against a superior one, fighting at a severe disadvantage (imperial healer/bard at centurions). I knew that our chances were limited, but Elstratuviel and Golron were very keen to try, so I went along with it. The battle went poorly because team good made a few mistakes, half of team good had perished. I could not word Golron, team Evil was far from losing and could move in and out of the cents. I knew that Golron was going to die, and there was nothing I could do to save him. Certainly not a 100 hp heal, and word of recall was taken away from paladins. Because I could do nothing to save him, there was at least one curse attempt on me and I worded by instinct.

I regret that action, because after the log of it was posted, it drew a lot of flames, which I will say here and now affected me deeply, and my enjoyment of Rouchevien. I was merely attempting to play a paladin who wanted to fight cleverly and wisely, to have victories. It spawned a host of flames that I still think back with some dismay, and is part of the reason why I won't be playing CF again.

No doubt my response here will draw more accusations and flames, but you wanted a response so here it is.

I doubt there are many players that never did something they wish they hadn't. Personally, I wished I'd never used nightgaunts as Daurwyn, but I can't do anything about it now. I would not leave cf because of getting a paladin flamed. Paladins, "ganking" villagers, and "corrupt" tribunals are probably the top three of the all time flame favorites.

I think I've posted three times on this thread and that two of them were deleted, unless I changed my mind about posting the first two times and have forgotten, but I don't think I did.

Entirely because in order to delete the post you were replying to, yours had to go. I could edit it to a blank post and leave your reply, but then it's just confusing.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Didn't think of that. I'm not too bothered if some of my posts are deleted anyway.

See thats just it, none of those posters have I heard make any type of criticisms of you guys or your decisions. However, back in the real world, not all of us believe the immstaff on CF farts perfume and pisses holy water, but some do. Using them as examples only proves that you guys want us to sugarcoat anything we say on your 'official' forums.

Again, feel free to read posts made by the people I mentioned, and ask whether or not they are critical of us on occasion. It's very easy to find posts where they think our policies are flawed, and they disagree with us. Scroll down Gameplay for a few minutes and count the number of posts that disagree with some decision we've made. They're all still up. As a matter of fact, well-written posts of this kind are much more likely to get results, because they articulate their position in more detail, instead of wasting space attacking people.

Those posters make their points with rhetoric, not bombast. There's a difference.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

But it _seems_ that some people are more prone to being hit with the Valgness then others despite both exhibiting the same behavior. The fact you know them and use them as examples make me believe that it is true that certain posters are listened to but others aren't. What is more important, what's being said or who is saying it?

However, the way you ask it clearly anticipates that the answer is "what is being said is more important than how it is being said".

Generally speaking, in real life, it is not clear-cut, and arguably, how something is said is more important than what is being said.

If Hitler just got up and said "Let's all go kill some Jews", I doubt more than a handful of people would have gone for it. What he said was wrong, but how he portrayed the situation to people it made many people accept it.

To put it in a way more relevant to us:

If you put someone on the defensive, they will resist (what you are saying, even if it what you say is perfectly sensible). I would therefore argue that how you say something does matter as much as what you say, if you are basing how much something matters on the response you get.

But I didn't. I gave honest criticism of the incredibly un-paladinlike behavior of a paladin. I wasn't profane and I wasn't abusive. I just said what I saw and let it go. By your standards then, there was no reason for its removal.

>There's a difference between supplying constructive criticism
>and flaming the character with liberal use of obscenities.
>Review our Forum Rules, available on the main forums page.

You are blatantly wrong. Maybe I'm blind, but I saw no "liberal use of obscenities."

>The purpose of the Battlefield is to discuss characters,
>exchange memories, and give people feedback about what they
>did well or not well.

The poster in question brought up several observations of the character, which were open to discussion. This falls into "feedback about what they did well or not well."

I'm wholly disgusted at the fact that you removed the post. Your reasoning is plenty sound, but in no way, shape or form did it apply to the post in question.

the character was being discussed. Feedback was given about what he did and did not do well.

Discussion of character:

Bad paladin, low morals, gear above all philosophy.

Memories:

Walked around getting gear after minor interaction with people for the hell of it, just so people cant say he didnt do it.

What he did and did not do well:

He should have played a friggin thief, not a paladin. 90% of his online time was spent getting that last super piece of gear. I cant begin to count the things he didnt do well.

I just think lately CF has been going down the drain. NO offense. I still play, at least for now. What you posted above and a few things that have come to my attention in the past few months which i will not make public, are just a few more reasons to let go of this game.

Are you claiming that heading off flamewars on the Battlefield ruins the CF experience for you? There's a difference between providing a less than positive opinion, and attacking someone. We've been enforcing this policy for years.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

what i claim ruins the CF experience for me but I will not post it here. I sent you an e-mail about it a few months ago but the response was less than receptive.

If I had to make an estimate in terms of time spent online, I would say 30% spent on improving gear, the remaining 70% spent on raids, hunting. I'm not sure how you derived the 90% time spent on getting gear.

I'm also not sure what you mean by "minot interaction with people for the hell of it". Rouchevien wasn't much of an interactive person, although he tried not to be rude I wouldn't describe him as chatty or friendly. I think this is a valid roleplay and shouldn't be interpreted the way you did so.

The purpose of the Battlefield is to discuss characters, exchange memories, and give people feedback about what they did well or not well. Flame wars and inflammatory remarks don't help anyone, and we decided a long time ago that our forums won't be a breeding ground for them.

A little flame war won't hurt anybody. Really. It would just make this forum more colorful. For now, it is too official, it is well known that you aren't going to read anything extraordinary here, sometimes I believe that people write their farewell notes and answers using special CF-approved templates, they all look alike and it is not good.
Remember the whole "Sad to see you go. n/t - Ikemasusa" thing ? }(

Sometimes this forum reminds me a file of official corporation press-releases about their top products. You are too jumpy at deleting posts. Small intellegent "flames" are easy to distinguish from stupid child-like spam-flames ( in this case you really have to step in ).

I read one of your posts below and shook my head in dismay when I came to the part stating you plan to give up on cf. I think that's a mistake.

I was with you when I was Martinian and Brordaran, and against you as Jhishesh, and I think you were well done on both counts. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said you should have played a warrior and not a paladin, because people have very set ideas on how paladins should be played. But they are wrong, and you were right to play a paladin as you did, it in no way broke or violated the code. People just want to have many of the same rather than something they don't like or didn't think of on their own.

Just one man's opinion, but I think you did well and should roll up another.

Thanks for this. I tangled with Jhishesh only briefly but I knew she was played by someone skilled and I'm not surprised it was you.

I'm glad that at least one person agrees with my point of view. I loved playing Rouchevien, I loved the fortress and in many ways I love playing CF as well. Given this last episode however I doubt I'll be rolling again. One reason is I've been drawn to Warhammer Dawn of War and I'm waiting for Warcraft to come. :)

...we could of fought together more, you were solid in a fight.

Irritating to fight. Good luck on your next.

Trotat.