Sun May 16 20:01:44 2004


At 4 o'clock PM, Day of Deception, 23rd of the Month of the Dark Shades
on the Theran calendar Falgoros perished, never to return.

Race:	human
Class:	ranger
Level:	32
Alignment:	Neutral
Ethos:	Chaotic
Cabal:	OUTLANDER, the Outlanders of Thar-Eris
Age:	28
Hours:	80

Enjoyed this character, although there were some things that really got under my skin.

First to all the other Outlanders out there, keep trucking. While it seems a lot of the pb hates the cabal, and IC it seems to be the same it is still a good cabal. I enjoyed my time with each and every one of you. Thanks for the times. RL made it hard to keep up with everyone in levels, as I work about 70 hours a week and have only a few hours a week to play. I saw everyone rise up above me in rank, and it would have made it hard to catch up with everyone.

I still enjoy the ranger class, and I ended up only 1 - 1 in pk's. I was sent running once (today) and the several other fights (20+) I sent the others running. The main reason being the inability to seal the kill. Still a fun class to play.

The powers of outlander have their uses, and I believe I found atleast one situation where each was handy. My thing is this though: After a mob death to a hero's lieutenants today, I feel like fighting the spire is such a crock of ####. Reasons:

1. They can guard call and guard call and guard call against someone twenty ranks lower than them, but I cannot beast call against them in a raid. I mean come on, getting hit by these guys and the Executioner at the same time. The last lieutenant I fought off gave me 420 xp points! SOLO! That should tell you something right there. Atleast let us be able to beast call against them since they guard call against us.

2. Fighting your way through town sucks. Especially if you have the luck of running into the Enforcer. Again, we deal with this and what do they have to deal with? A few pissy wolves when trep is called against them and they raid....Come on now.

While I enjoyed the cabal, it is in the newer stages and I do believe needs some changes. I am not trying to knock the Imms here, I just want to voice my opinion on the way it's set up right now.

Anyhow, I have work to get to so if you want say something and I will holler back. Thanks to all the players and Imms for such a kick ass game.

Falgoros

Ferbeloth, Aragolias, Guerrqu, Juamaniquo, Shalos and a few others....

Sorry to see this. I was hoping you would catch up sooner
or later. When I caught you solo ranking tonight, I was
like oh no, he must be so bored. Hence the guards and
enforcer and all that. Hope it was fun regardless.

I agree with you somewhat. Most of Thera's population must
be tribunal guards. But hey, it makes for a spammy,
intresting challenge. I think I would almost be alright
with it if the amount of spam didn't slow down my connection.
I have encountered more frustating things in this game though.

Yes, I was bored out of my mind there just hoping that someone would come in there to fight. Though just the interaction with you and Imbessar was fun. You then suggested the raid and I was glad. It tended to get lonley sometimes constantly solo ranking and looking for someone to attack.

I had a bad feeling when you logged in and out so quickly. I thought Falgoros was well played and always up to take on the enemy. I agree that for non-hero Outlanders and us wizards raiding the Spire is increadably tough if even one tribunal is around. I have a feeling that the cabal is still in it's pupa stage and will get adjusted as time goes on. Hope you come back to the Refuge in a different form.

It seems to more of an anti-tribunal cabal.

For it to work better, outlanders should be more free. Being forced to fight tribuals and destory cities should not be their main focus. First of all, getting flagged and having guards attack you is a huge disadvantage. If this is their main focus, give them disperse.

I like the idea of freeing themsleves from cities, but they should not really care about destorying them. In my view, if these cities are so corrupt and dieased, they will crumble from within. Just keep that disease out of the wilds.

Either a more passive outlander goal or give them better suited powers

" It seems to more of an anti-tribunal cabal. "

An anti-tribunal cabal? I really doubt Outlander's concept is that simple. The cities form the frontline of the Outlander's war however.

" Being forced to fight tribuals and destory cities should not be their main focus. "

Take a nice and good look at the nature of the powers which the three seperate alignments recieve by joining Outlander. Seeing an almost military-styled pattern of offense, support and defense in there yet?

" In my view, if these cities are so corrupt and dieased, they will crumble from within. "

That is but one way of looking at it, and a very, very passive one at that. In fact, you might even say it's too passive.

" Just keep that disease out of the wilds. "

Hell no. Sylvan, (in my opinion an ill-concieved, very cheesy and very ghey cabal) is finally, finally gone and I would very much like to see it remain that way. So I got an even better idea instead. Burn down every single city in Thera to the ground and offer the Ancients and the wilds the entire world to breathe, regenerate and grow in. The borders of the virgin forests will once again spread from coast to coast as they did in ancient times and will no longer step aside for anyone or for anything. Blessed by the Ancients there will be no retreat, and no surrender. In fact, it is civilisation who may well be about to be overrun instead.

Welcome to the Outlanders of Thar-Eris.

" Either a more passive outlander goal "

I'm starting to think you played an alignment within Outlander that seriously didn't suit your personal playing style and/or the role of your character. The role of what an Outlander is supposed to be doing to have Thar-Eris reach its final and ultimate revival strikes me as being largely outlined by the alignment of the individual Outlander in question. I don't know which one of the three you tried back there, but next time you join make sure you choose one of the other two. From what I read in your post I'd in your case go for a goodie Outlander, as they seem to match the old and failing philosophy of Sylvan the closest. Neutral and evil are a very different kind of Outlander - they have a different focus and place in the war against civilisation, and more importantly they use some very different methods when it comes down to it as well.

That is exactly what I have come to appreciate so much about the design of this cabal actually. The way how it makes every of the three seperate alignments a distinct and even required part of a greater harmonious whole. Within Outlander good, neutral and evil are all united under one dream and one final purpose, and it's exactly this combination of different methods, mentalities and specialised approaches united under one vision that in theory could make this cabal a very potent force in the game. Time will tell I guess. She's still very young.

By the way, sorry about the 'Yuck' subject. It's just that you smell like a damn Sylvan.

Nice post, by the way.

My standard answer for the original poster's "Outlander should be passive, stick to the wilds, and avoid civilization":

Sylvan officially took that outlook. Most players constantly pushed it towards attacking Tribunal/Empire anyway. While designing Outlander, we took that into account, and made it possible for you to have an Outlander role with that offensive bent. You can also craft an Outlander role where you patrol the wilderness, and punish the civilization-folk as soon as they step out of their filthy havens.

What you don't have to do much is patrol for fires and protect NPCs from ranking groups. Outlander is about dealing with causes, not symptoms.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Well, since even Valg replied, I figure I should also. Yes, the benevolent part of Outlander is the most Sylvanish in the fact that they are about protection more than attack... or were. Make one of the goodies, you'll be pleasently, I think, suprised at the new changes going on in that part of the Refuge. (Everyone else, pretend to ignore my recruiting campaign in this post but make a goodie Outlander anyway.)

I do intend to come back as I found some interesting things that I would like to furhter explore within outlander. I still remember getting smitten for touching your nice 'goodie bag' in the tree though. Quite funny actually. Took me a second to realize what was going on. Luck to you and the eye gouging svirf voker path you are going through. I like you see this as the newborn stage and look forward to the things to come.

We were inducted within an hour of each other. Thought your character was pretty cool and hoped we'd run up through the ranks together, but was not to be. We did have that one really tough retrieval through three sets of aided centurions and legions of Balator watchmen that was a challenge to remember - lucky for us it was unopposed. ;)

Yeah, that was quite the interesting retrieval. I remember being inducted so close to one another and wish I would have been around more to have ranked up with ya. Good luck.

>The powers of outlander have their uses, and I believe I found atleast one situation where each was handy. My thing is this though: After a mob death to a hero's lieutenants today, I feel like fighting the spire is such a crock of ####.

Outlander is about the destruction of civilization to bring about Thar-Eris. Fighting Tribunal is not a crock. Fighting them and causing the breakdown of society within a city will bring forth the destruction of civilization.

>1. They can guard call and guard call and guard call against someone twenty ranks lower than them, but I cannot beast call against them in a raid. I mean come on, getting hit by these guys and the Executioner at the same time. The last lieutenant I fought off gave me 420 xp points! SOLO! That should tell you something right there. Atleast let us be able to beast call against them since they guard call against us.

Being rank 32 and hitting the Executioner with the Provost around who has Lieutenants is probably not the best tactic.

>2. Fighting your way through town sucks. Especially if you have the luck of running into the Enforcer. Again, we deal with this and what do they have to deal with? A few pissy wolves when trep is called against them and they raid....Come on now.

Being in a cabal means that there are going to be raids for items.

While I see both points, I do have problems with the Tribunal system that has been going on for a long time, mainly the fact that it is truthfully impossible to raid as a mage if there is any Tribunal on that comes to fight. Well, any mage but a necro (no Outlander) or a shifter (Didn't mean to forget you, Delromsin) or a conjurer (again, no Outlander). I know even I walk into the Spire thinking, hell, I'll get one or two spells off before I get manacled and have to flee and hide somewhere because I have no chance at all of casting anything. I know how to get around it, at least to the point of not dying to it, etc, but that doesn't mean others will if they play a mage, and mages in Outlanders have alot of things going for them in my opinion. While I have no problem with the retrieval against Outlanders, mainly because I don't believe we need to have tons of things in our enemies way to defend (see Tribunal and Empire and their guards/centurions/watchmen of Balator if Outlander is wanted). Good character from what I saw of you, Falgoros. Sorry to see you go, but I understand how you feel sometimes. I hope to see you back in another form.

Alynana

>>The powers of outlander have their uses, and I believe I
>found atleast one situation where each was handy. My thing is
>this though: After a mob death to a hero's lieutenants today,
>I feel like fighting the spire is such a crock of ####.
>
>Outlander is about the destruction of civilization to bring
>about Thar-Eris. Fighting Tribunal is not a crock. Fighting
>them and causing the breakdown of society within a city will
>bring forth the destruction of civilization.
>


That the Tribunal/Empire has the advantages in this cabal war.

1. Every other cabal has the option of lowbie retrieval with no opposition - except Outlander. Retrieving from Empire involves running the gauntlet of mid-level watchmen and multiple pairs high-level centurions you can't flee from. Retrieving from Tribunal means running the gauntlet of souped-up Galadon guards, manacles, and multiple high-level special guards you'll have difficulty fleeing from.

Compared to lowbie Tribunal retrieving from Outlander, who has to deal with... trepidation.

Hence, advantage Tribunal/Empire.

2. Tribunal/Empire have clear paths of civilized areas leading to and from their cabal. Tribunal, by Spire design, have easy access for immediate defense. Outlanders, on the other hand, HAVE to run through a civilized stretch of road to defend. Why is this, exactly?

Hence, advantage Tribunal/Empire.

3. Tribunal keep the majority of their offensive powers without their cabal item. They're still just as challenging to kill in their city. Outlanders lose every non-offensive power.

Hence, advantage Tribunal.

4. Tribunal, through manacles, have the ability to completely neutralize a variety of raiders (spellcasters) - OUT OF RANGE. Outlanders have.. trepidation, which neutralizes no one.

Hence, advantage Tribunal.

5. Tribunal, through WANTED flags, have the ability to neutralize a variety of in-game enjoyment for anyone who "dares" to raid the Spire (including but not limited to entering the Inn of the Eternal Star and engaging in RP, and some areas that are nigh-impossible to explore with a WANTED flag). Outlanders, of course, have nothing comparable.

Hence, advantage Tribunal.

Sum:
The one thing that makes this advantage understandable is if, in the balancing process, the IMMs figured that druids and rangers were SO powerful, in terms of class powers alone, that raiding against a druid/ranger in the wilds (in your PK range) that knows you are coming is comparable to raiding against in-and-out-of-range Tribunals with their cabal powers.

If rangers/druids need enemies with cabal powers to balance them, that's understandable. But in that case, I think the forested area should be extended from Prosimy to Arkham, just like the Balator/Imperial Road. But I think what Falgoros is aiming at is some out-of-range power that allows Outlanders to ward of lowbie retrieval.

>That the Tribunal/Empire has the advantages in this cabal war.

Each has it's own advantages.

>1. Every other cabal has the option of lowbie retrieval with no opposition - except Outlander. Retrieving from Empire involves running the gauntlet of mid-level watchmen and multiple pairs high-level centurions you can't flee from. Retrieving from Tribunal means running the gauntlet of souped-up Galadon guards, manacles, and multiple high-level special guards you'll have difficulty fleeing from.

Compared to lowbie Tribunal retrieving from Outlander, who has to deal with... trepidation.

Hence, advantage Tribunal/Empire.

Certain Outlanders have certain powers against the problems these pose. Like any other powers, the better you get at them the better they will work.

>2. Tribunal/Empire have clear paths of civilized areas leading to and from their cabal. Tribunal, by Spire design, have easy access for immediate defense. Outlanders, on the other hand, HAVE to run through a civilized stretch of road to defend. Why is this, exactly?

Hence, advantage Tribunal/Empire.

There are more areas outside of civilization than in which means more areas for Outlanders to be effective.

>3. Tribunal keep the majority of their offensive powers without their cabal item. They're still just as challenging to kill in their city. Outlanders lose every non-offensive power.

Hence, advantage Tribunal.

Only in the cities, again, cities are much less area than non-cities.

>4. Tribunal, through manacles, have the ability to completely neutralize a variety of raiders (spellcasters) - OUT OF RANGE. Outlanders have.. trepidation, which neutralizes no one.

Hence, advantage Tribunal.

There are more powers than trepidation.

>5. Tribunal, through WANTED flags, have the ability to neutralize a variety of in-game enjoyment for anyone who "dares" to raid the Spire (including but not limited to entering the Inn of the Eternal Star and engaging in RP, and some areas that are nigh-impossible to explore with a WANTED flag). Outlanders, of course, have nothing comparable.

Hence, advantage Tribunal.

For some, having a wanted flag is an enjoyment. Outlanders as a whole shouldn't care what the laws are and having a flag should pose little if any problem at all.

>Sum:
The one thing that makes this advantage understandable is if, in the balancing process, the IMMs figured that druids and rangers were SO powerful, in terms of class powers alone, that raiding against a druid/ranger in the wilds (in your PK range) that knows you are coming is comparable to raiding against in-and-out-of-range Tribunals with their cabal powers.

If rangers/druids need enemies with cabal powers to balance them, that's understandable. But in that case, I think the forested area should be extended from Prosimy to Arkham, just like the Balator/Imperial Road. But I think what Falgoros is aiming at is some out-of-range power that allows Outlanders to ward of lowbie retrieval.

Partially correct, partially not. Each outlander has different powers based upon their alignment. There are so many other things that could be stated, but they are more for IC learning than spoon-feeding here.

>Certain Outlanders have certain powers against the problems these pose. Like any other powers, the better you get at them the better they will work.

Not like any other power, in my experience few powers work this way. Atleast used to work this way.

And you cannot compare them to special guards/centurions.

Sure, outlanders will have it tough. Especially as manacles and guards work outside pk range. But the worst thing about the cabal is the annoying ass barter thing. Sure, I will probably never play one due to all the restrictions and so on. But I do know some who play them now that are having a tough time.

I am not missing the point. I know exactly what you are talking about. I also know that there is a power that makes those things useless...if anyone happens to get good enough at the power.

BTW are outlander powers supposed to be really hard to improve at? Mine rarely if ever go up.

I understand there are some balancing factors that I am not yet aware of.

But I'd still like you to consider extending the wilderness area from Arkham to the Tree. An Outlander can traverse the entire game without stepping into a civilized area.. unless he wants to return to the Refuge. Something about that seems off. Can a water body extend from the Open Sea to the edge of the forest, can the wilderness be extended, just something tweaked so the Outlanders are not FORCED to enter a civilized area to return to their own cabal.

Yeah tribunals do have to deal with trepidation....the trepitation from not always knowing what outlanders they face, where they are, where the next thorn trap is, weather or not you're going to get ambushed at the Outlander Inner by that camoed ranger, ect. :)

They rule the cities, but you guys rule the wilds since they can't see camo.

As for their offensive powers, if you step outside of the city, they've got nothing.

I see Outlanders as being guerilla warriors. Yeah, they can't stand up to Tribunal/Empire in a civilized fight, but Lawmen sweat bullets in the unfamiliar wilds where they can use NONE of their cabal powers.

There's more to cabal wars than item siezing. I'm suprised you guys don't camo and camp popular foresty ranking areas more, that's how you'll do the most hurt.

I see Outlanders as being guerilla warriors. Yeah, they can't stand up to Tribunal/Empire in a civilized fight, but Lawmen sweat bullets in the unfamiliar wilds where they can use NONE of their cabal powers.

There's more to cabal wars than item siezing. I'm suprised you guys don't camo and camp popular foresty ranking areas more, that's how you'll do the most hurt.

This is a pretty good summary of how I see things as well.

As Nepenthe is exceedingly fond of pointing out, any character can look weak if you create a bad situation for them.

Imagine that the current cabal numbers were reversed- lots of Outlanders, few Tribunal/Empire. (Or an Empire that is taking a severe beating from their other enemies, notably Fortress.) The Scales vanish. A lot of Tribunal characters are in a bind now. They probably aren't sure where the Outlanders are, and they're going to fight on turf that helps Outlanders and doesn't do them any favors.

Of course Tribunal is good at defending a civilized area. That's what they do. The reverse is also true. Both parties will find it difficult to take items, but easy to defend them.

I think what most people are seeing now is more the effect of a large, relatively healthy, and politically stable Empire. We're monitoring the situation as a staff, and we'll tweak as needed, but we're always careful not to mistake pendulum swings for imbalance.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I like these two posts... I agree Valg, that post was badass. Yes, Outlanders have alot of good powers that are a bit better than most people think they are. Anyway, my post was mainly stating that raiding Tribunals for some is harder than others, as I said, it doesn't bother me that much and with the right amount of wariness, it shouldn't bother many others either.

I agree that Tribunal should be hard to raid, and that Outlander should be more guerilla tactics based. As an Outlander invoker though I feel like I'm letting the cabal down by not directly raiding Tribunal. Sure I could try to raid but most likely I'd be manacled and sent running in short order. Also I have a feeling the Outlander Imms are going to frown big time on those who don't raid Tribunal. So are we supposed to suck it up and preform lots of suicide runs at the Spire or not worry about raiding them and get them outside of the city(Also hoping we don't get torn a new one for not raiding)?

Wanted flags - Who cares, I actually liked being wanted and would sometimes do things just for the purpose of being wanted. Hell, if I could have had a perma-wanted flag I would have.

Barter - Another thing I really liked about outlander. I get so tired of seeing the pb being stuck on gold. It really is a downfall and barter rocks.

My thing is this though: After a mob death to a hero's lieutenants today, I feel like fighting the spire is such a crock of ####.
***Let me clarify***
- My thing is that every other cabal has the option of lower ranks retrieving/raiding. Yet vs. Cents/Lieutenants it makes things hard. I as a player give not a care to dying, losing gear, etc. What I do care about is getting penalized for raiding/retrieving. By this I mean going from 4000 xp tnl to 16000 tnl just because someone 20 ranks my greater runs around with two mobs that are auto aggresive to me. (Oh, and try subverting guards from a hero as a lower rank..) Dying is part of playing and so is losing that nice set, but who cares...you still can have fun. But when you go from being close to that next set of skills to having to spend another few hours just to get back to that. It sucks.

The only point I was trying to make is that either lose the xp penalty for deaths from raiding/retrieving or lose the ability for guards of someone outside your pk range being able to beat your ass into the ground. Or atleast even the score and let outlanders deadfalls hit whoever raids or their beasts attack any who raid.

Granted there are the problems with a hero beast calling some lowbie ranking on forest guardians, but just make cabal rules where things like that dont happen. Just as some tribby dosent just want everyone in the city for the hell of it.

I will say that I LOVED THE OUTLANDER CABAL and it's concepts...(reminds me a lot of the matrix....you can never trust anyone still wired into civilization :P, I am here to free your mind!) It's just the odds against it that I didn't enjoy. Sure you can say steer clear of the cities, etc...and guerilla tactics in the forests...but I tell you this as a non ranger/druid my chars avoided ranking/traveling in the woods like the plague. I think this goes for any char that plays with some sort of brains. So instead As a ranger I spend hours in the woods just hoping and praying that some poor soul will be foolish enough to step into the woods. This is why a lot of my fights originated in towns or civilized areas, it's because I came to play and bring it I did.

Well this is my ramble....again I really like outlander, and I always make sure to say thanks to the imms when I can. I just feel a few changes are needed to make it more enjoyable. I mean isnt that what this is about....FUN?

I was hoping you'd be around more so we could go ranking together. It really is difficult to solo rank, but sometimes that's all you can do. Shoot... Thanks for the initial interview and putting up with the naive cat. Remember, no matter what your RL hectic schedule, Carrion Fields will always call you back. You can't quit cold turkey. I've tried it. Its tough.

Kelara