Wed Feb 25 20:01:10 2004


At 12 o'clock PM, Day of the Bull, 1st of the Month of the Heat
on the Theran calendar Rahno perished, never to return.

Race:	duergar
Class:	warrior
Level:	44
Alignment:	Evil
Ethos:	Chaotic
Cabal:	None, None
Age:	154
Hours:	197

Well i don't think i will let you down. You got a lot to learn about cf and warriors in general. Good luck with your next you didn't do too bad, tip for next time, if you a berserker sword spec you thirst and use flurry from time to time, its how they compensate for not having preps and doing ####ty regular damage cause sowrds are easily parried. Its a risk a lot of times but one worth taking.

nt

I understand the whole you should attack mages, but I think a dead rager is a useless one. Let us pick when we think we can win our battles man. We got stuff under control, no offense but everyone I talked to so far doesnt like you. Be tough but be fair.

Figured I would go ahead and reply since it might quell questions or flames about this.
1: Do I expect you to be suicidal and stupid?
Response : Hell no, what I do expect however is SOMETHING to be done. Remember, you are part of the Village of Battle Ragers. Those who have dedicated their lives to destroying magic and on top of this a Berserker no less. When ANY mage (forget cabal) that you can harm walks up to you and you walk away without saying even a word, or any action against him, how does this speak about your hatred and rage?

2: Let us pick when we think we can win our battles
Response : Yes, you are allowed to pick your own battles but this does not mean you can ignore someone because it doesn't look good for you. You can't just ignore the cabal's ideals and goals because you think you might die, and then pick them back up again when you know you will win. Pick your fights that you will be balls to the wall, but you should TRY every chance you get to kill the mage. If it doesn't look good, then get the hell out of there, however you TRIED.

3: We got stuff under control
Response: Uh, no. I'm sorry but this is far from the truth. People can bitch about how Berserker’s were purged, but most all agree that it was needed and a good thing. Is Battle going in a better direction now? I would like to think so, but now that it has been put on track it will be up to the mortal leaders and players to make it better.

4: Be tough but fair
Response: Actually, you were proof of being fair. I allowed you back in while there was a few comments from others that they thought you shouldn't have been. There are quite a few who I have watched who had to flee from the village from a gank of 4 or more and you know what? I give them props for sticking it out as long as they could and fighting them until they had to run. I don't expect stupidity, but I'm not going to allow people to just be a part time rager either.

**I'll just give a couple of example for each, that not only should be valid rp, but would also be smart play


Figured I would go ahead and reply since it might quell questions or flames about this.
1: Do I expect you to be suicidal and stupid?
Response : Hell no, what I do expect however is SOMETHING to be done. Remember, you are part of the Village of Battle Ragers. Those who have dedicated their lives to destroying magic and on top of this a Berserker no less. When ANY mage (forget cabal) that you can harm walks up to you and you walk away without saying even a word, or any action against him, how does this speak about your hatred and rage?

**That I'm seething on the inside instead of being a loud mouth? Just because you have a lot of hatred/rage doesn't mean you need to yell about it every other breath, that's narrow rp.

**That I know that not only can I not win if I attack right now, but that attacking now hurts my chances for a successful attack later? That's pigeonholing a cabal that is already very difficult to survive/succeed in into even narrower tactics, when what you should be doing is praising creative tactics.

2: Let us pick when we think we can win our battles
Response : Yes, you are allowed to pick your own battles but this does not mean you can ignore someone because it doesn't look good for you. You can't just ignore the cabal's ideals and goals because you think you might die, and then pick them back up again when you know you will win. Pick your fights that you will be balls to the wall, but you should TRY every chance you get to kill the mage. If it doesn't look good, then get the hell out of there, however you TRIED.


**So a berserker assassin is never allowed to try and assassinate, or a thief wait for fly to drop because somewhere before that they have the CHANCE to attack? You can't just decide whether a character is really abandoning the cabal's ideal and goals for fear of death unless it becomes so commonplace as to be ridiculous. Rahno was not this person.

**How do you decide "when it doesn't look good", because to me, being wanted, trying to attack tribunal mages, and deal with the vindicator at the same time sure sounds like a "doesn't look good" situation to me, but then, I like to look at the big picture.

3: We got stuff under control
Response: Uh, no. I'm sorry but this is far from the truth. People can bitch about how Berserker’s were purged, but most all agree that it was needed and a good thing. Is Battle going in a better direction now? I would like to think so, but now that it has been put on track it will be up to the mortal leaders and players to make it better.

**Who is most all? I certainly don't agree that a purge was what was needed... did someone need to clean some house? Hell yes. But half of the people let back in, shouldn't have been, and some of the people not let back in should have been. Also, it was never that JUST the berserkers that was the problem. Of course that's just my opinion, but then you are using yours as justification, and quite frankly I haven't seen anything that indicates yours is better than mine.

4: Be tough but fair
Response: Actually, you were proof of being fair. I allowed you back in while there was a few comments from others that they thought you shouldn't have been. There are quite a few who I have watched who had to flee from the village from a gank of 4 or more and you know what? I give them props for sticking it out as long as they could and fighting them until they had to run. I don't expect stupidity, but I'm not going to allow people to just be a part time rager either.


**Sticking out against a gank of 4 is just stupidity unless there is absolutely no chance of them lagging you... at all. Sticking it out even in that case is relatively futile since the chances of you being able to take one down aren't good, so guess what now you're hurt and on the run... easy pickings for some lucky air/offense, or any number of other village enemies. What you should give them props for is having the patience to wait until they aren't all together then bashing each one of them into the ground.

**My character had much interaction/involvement with Rahno and he was anything but a part time rager. It seems obvious to me that you didn't exactly do your homework before taking over, and tough but fair isn't how I'd describe your policies.

It appears that all you did was try to twist everything that was stated by Ordasen to fit your own narrow thinking.

**That I'm seething on the inside instead of being a loud mouth? Just because you have a lot of hatred/rage doesn't mean you need to yell about it every other breath, that's narrow rp.

He could have done a number of things in that situation and it looked as if he put his tail between his legs and gave up.

**So a berserker assassin is never allowed to try and assassinate, or a thief wait for fly to drop because somewhere before that they have the CHANCE to attack? You can't just decide whether a character is really abandoning the cabal's ideal and goals for fear of death unless it becomes so commonplace as to be ridiculous. Rahno was not this person.

This is so utterly weak, that anyone who reads this will think that you are fishing for a whale in a puddle.

**Who is most all? I certainly don't agree that a purge was what was needed... did someone need to clean some house? Hell yes. But half of the people let back in, shouldn't have been, and some of the people not let back in should have been. Also, it was never that JUST the berserkers that was the problem. Of course that's just my opinion, but then you are using yours as justification, and quite frankly I haven't seen anything that indicates yours is better than mine.

I am not going to speak for all the imms, but since I am around a lot, I definitely saw a need for a purging of the berserkers. Right now, even though the numbers are less, the concept behind battle is much better and it is beginning to show in the role play and in the quality of members.

**Sticking out against a gank of 4 is just stupidity unless there is absolutely no chance of them lagging you... at all. Sticking it out even in that case is relatively futile since the chances of you being able to take one down aren't good, so guess what now you're hurt and on the run... easy pickings for some lucky air/offense, or any number of other village enemies. What you should give them props for is having the patience to wait until they aren't all together then bashing each one of them into the ground.

And yet, so many of those on the pillar did it quite often with success.

**My character had much interaction/involvement with Rahno and he was anything but a part time rager. It seems obvious to me that you didn't exactly do your homework before taking over, and tough but fair isn't how I'd describe your policies.

So did I, and I found him to be needy of praise that wasn't always earned. His attitde always seemed to be along the lines of, "Did you see how great I was last week? Boy, those were the days." Instead, he should have been, "Today's a new day with a new battle in front of me."

Courage doesn't equate to stupidity according to your own words, but honestly jumping a tribunal mage in town with other tribunals around unless you are sure you can deal the damage and keep him from fleeing in the four to six rounds you 'might' have to kill him before you're wanted and tanking 6 guards etc. is just stupid.

In the instances you're talking about pillar wise, or perhaps it was the other imm; the villagers were either in power and bored ####less looking for a fight, or they weren't facing the tribunals (and by this I mean changes to the guards and tribunal powers) that they do now.

Props my eye. There were times when I fought against several at the giant with really no hope of doing more than drawing some attacks away from the destructor for a few rounds and running like my ass was on fire if I could and there were times that I said screw it they're pissing me off and I'm sticking it out, but deaths in defense of the village are reason for not being worthy of the village.

The purge might have been ok if it hadn't seemed like a pull it out of your ass instant thing. If there'd been stirrings in the village or even a friggin note. But obviously instead of giving the players a three minute warning or a little consideration you and/or the rest of the Immstaff decided they weren't worth the investiture of time. Do I think some of the villagers needed removal? Hell yes, I can name a few. But when all is said and done you basically undermined what you and the rest of the Immstaff take as your standardized line about rp and following your character concept and chucked it out the window for a spring cleaning that was more foul than fair, even by general rp standards.

The only time I see booting a villager out for something like that is when it's clear that they face only one foe, or they've consistantly avoided fights because they're clinging to that nice set of gear or just plain won't fight or defend. Booting someone for making what to them, seems a wise decision at the time without taking the two whole minutes necessary to give them a prod and see why they did or didn't do what they did just makes you seem like someone unfit for the responsability of overseeing a cabal.

I agree, you'll probably get better rp'd villagers. That's usually the case when you make a cabal suck so badly that it's viewed by the playerbase as a challenge to even survive within it, that being said; that's a dubious situation at best. People should join cabals because they want the rp/playing possibilities that come along with it, not because they feel that in a ####ty place if they manage to survive it's some measure of their doggedness or worth.

The recent changes to the village, including your appointment to it, has made it worse in the grand scheme of things. But then that's why I won't play anymore so I guess I should thank you for that.
Laters,
Hysh

The recent changes to the village, including your appointment to it, has made it worse in the grand scheme of things.

Speaking as someone who is online a lot, and spends a lot of time watching players, I'll respond by saying "Uh, no." The village was desperately in need of being cleaned-out and refocused, and the purge did just that. I don't think there was even ONE immortal that spent time watching the pre-purge Ragers that liked the way the cabal was going. Even though it has small numbers at the moment, it is a far, far better cabal then it was before.

I can't say I'm surprised that not everyone agrees. When has any change, large or small, ever been done on CF that everyone agreed with? Some people always think they end up getting the shorter end of the stick, and they can either complain about it or do better.

Velk

I did a purge of Scion a little while ago for similar reasons- I had some changes I wanted to enact, and I wanted to address:

1) People who were inducted by less picky leaders of the past.
2) Storage characters who logged in once in a long while.
3) I needed a break in attitudes. The batch of mortals at the time seemed stuck in an old way of thinking, and the purge let me make sure everyone who got back in, got back in by the hand of someone who knew the doctrine.

Like Ordasen, I took back the exceptional members of the original batch. Other people immediately whined and deleted. Still others chose to stay uncaballed rather than seek reinduction. But the purge had the impact I wanted, and the people who were really playing the Scion angle well didn't have a problem getting back in.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

No message

Way to stick together, I especially like the multiple pats on the back as you give the 'Imm-take' on things.

The point was, in the past the Imms had the 'interest' in the cabal to give the 'players' (you remember who they are right?) the opportunity to rise to the occasion. That isn't the case in instant gratification cabal purges. I understand if the majority fall into this category, I don't feel that was the case with battle; at least that I saw. The gist of things is that as proven by such constructive and useful posts as what's his names, where the best he can offer up is that it's nolonger the "whine and cheese" chennel, you guys aren't working 'with' players to effect something better, you're making unilateral changes that suit 'your' immediate picture of how things should be. I'm not saying you all suck, though I think posts that equate to Imm's saying you're whiny or mine is bigger than yours prove that saying they suck is redundant. I'm saying that without the rp and immteraction that the mud was well-known for, it devolves into kill joe, loot corpse, get killed by hector, regear repeat add infinitum. Which makes for less fun for all involved. Imms I'd suspect would be better served by a patient weaving mindset rather than your typical 5 year old mentality of I want what I want and I want it now or I'm going to throw a fit. It makes for more fun, I'd think on everyone's part.

As a player, yeah I think the recent changes were ill-conceived. Obviously you all disagree, but likewise considering you would pretty much put a united face on kicking puppies and whatever else that one Imm did I don't of necessity grant carbon copy opinions much weight. Valguernera, I understand in the absence of a leader of your cabal that it's necessary to take your own steps, but rather than coming up with 5 or 6 cheesy gechos and booting everyone I 'know' you're imaginative enough to come up with a more insidious way of reaching the same end result. Insta changes are just as destructive to immersion into the group consensual rp of playing in a world like cf as someone who says AFK I need to drain the lizard. Why do I 'whine' about this? Because you're the Imms, you set the standards whether you like it or not, when I can name certain players who seem more in tune with these concepts than apparently several Imms then things are messed up. I won't play CF cause I don't like most of its Imm Staff, purely judging things on recent things I've seen. That being said, some of them I like a great deal and respect. The irony is that due to recent name changes it's altogether possible that some of those I 'think' I respect could very well be those who I presently totally dislike. In the end who cares? You don't play and do what you do to please me, nor I you no matter how much any one of you might think or expect otherwise. But, I do think that it was at least the intended goal of all who play, imm and player alike to try to jointly participate and create an atmosphere conducive to the fun, rp and so forth that make CF worthy of mention.

Laters,
Hysh

Honestly man, unless you've got anything more useful than one of the oldest, childish quotes around to quote, do yourself a favor and refrain from comment. Seeing things like that just make me wonder how anything creative can come out of people who are only adept at regurgitation.

And the Whine continues. It's the baby talk like this that causes changes. It has nothing to do with the immortal staff creating a united front. Everything that the immortals here have stated are all based on facts. The current ragers do not whine. They aren't arguing about petty bs over the cabal channel. The people who are not in anymore are the ones who did the most whining. If you think about the actions and talk of those who are in, and the ones who are gone, you will see that these words are true. Not some sort of self delusional rant that I keep hearing from you.

But your whine and cheese comment came off as pretty immature, and almost to the point as though you were trying to piss people off. That in and of itself is pretty childish, hence his post I think.

Derexal

Ok, if you fail to see what I was trying to get across no problem. Just another loser Imm in my opinion. Go stroke your ego to your little hearts content.

other then not attacking a trib mage in town. I often fought against great numbers, killed and died plenty. I still dont get it

>other then not attacking a trib mage in town. I often fought
>against great numbers, killed and died plenty. I still dont
>get it

For some things, doing it once is deflamation enough of character. Doesn't matter what you do the rest of the time.

Or, to put it more pointedly:

"Build bridges all your life, and suck one cock. Do they remember you as a bridge builder?"


Hutto, the Sleepy Nitpicker


'Sorry, I'm not 72323slhlst. Or however you say Elite'
-Vynmylak

Made this char just for fun, third rager. Love the cabal, love the imms, love the pk fun. What can I say, the sh1t hit the fan. Got booted for not attacking a mage trib in town. Dont blame Ordasen, but damn dude, little harsh. No way to survive wanted and I had low con... ah well

OOOO And one thing! Do not pick duergar whip/flail, unless all you're gonna use is strip.

(Good byes, Same as on Dio's)

AIM: Whosyourdaddy906
EMAIL: DontDrinkAndDrive2Fast@msn.com

My Good byes...

Vex: My MAIN man, we always had some good fights during raids. Always were there when I needed that special ass patch. Kept me alive lots of times, Thar-Acacia was scary, bastard couldnt talk heh.

Jinroh a.k.a Jinny: Damn dude, props on the duergar solo rank. Hard stuff, especially rping a duergar that cant drink alcohol.

Zheltranix: You stopped my ass from deleting twice, third times a charm. See ya around

Betraal: Good Fighter, Bright future

Ansenoug: Damn I hate your flurry, almost gotcha once

Jarsh: My pledge, you better not disappoint me man, good luck, good duel.

Woopooga: One word, damn.

Forgetting LOTS, send me a post and I'll reply

I thought you were a well played Duergar. Occasionally I get annoyed with players who pick Duergar just for stats, who then begin to roleplay stupidly (at least by my opinon, hoho!) I found Rahno had a very ideal look on life, the same way Kackrik did. Go down fighting or don't be livin! I knew you had respect for me because you seemed very excited everytime I would come around. I knew I could count on you in most situations, though the whole "i'z aint gonna listen ta ####e!" thing does get annoying OOC. No worries, I pulled the exact same thing :D.

And yes, I remember:

Rahno says 'need yer ta do me a favor'
Rahno says 'when I die, wantin yer ta lay on meh face, so the mages can know ta kiss meh arse'

hohoho. Good times, seriously. See you on your next

- Jaynus

Ya was a pretty good fighter, i think the only time i won was the last time, and i coulda won, just didnt want ta kill ya.

Once I saw you out there, I picked up you're positive attitude of fighting. Many ways tried to resemble you. I didnt delete right away because I wanted to show that I was just as tough as you.
Good times

hey,

it was fun man. you were sort of my replacement for kackrik when he left, though there were times when I would hurled a dagger in your throat if you would have been in my pk range :) Man, Thar-Acacia. The whole time on the way there, I was hoping someone would remember that I can't talk, I was rp'ing Vex's ignorance of the place and knew it would make an interesting situation. Good time though, and I got that pretty new anklet too! hehehe

Vex--you can email me at lick0018@umn.edu if there's something else you need to say.

I loved the rp with you man, you scowled that one day and I said you looked like a gnomie. That was our own inside joke, you'd scowl every once in a while and I would laugh. You were also the one guy that always had my back, even on a 5v2 or an argument with a rager. Thanks big time man, send me an email or a msg.

Take this the right way, since everyone else seems to be taking what I say either too literally or too something. I saw you as walking the fine line between stupidity and courage many times. I think you walked on both sides at times, but I get the impression that is what you meant to do. Dryzzel respected you, that is for sure. Good luck with the next.

Dryzzel

Sphere: Courage
I started fighting less at the end when the con was lowering but man, when I had a crap load of con, I would fight when I thought I'd have a lil chance, and not use thirst. Good fighter man, see ya in the fields.

I hope you enjoyed my pain in the ass ways when you were wanted. I had a feeling that one night you were trying to quit out, but I kept getting in the way of that. See you around

But I was booted for not attacking a mage Trib in town with Grurk around. Not saying I should or shouldnt, just saying I aint in a Japanese War Plane. Fun times

Damn we had alot of fights. In the start of our meetings I did not like you one bit, with the Narch cloud giant guy and you trying to gang me, but I got over it...and so did you it seems. You showed great Courage sometimes, and none at all sometimes, which I can't always blame. I loved all of our skirmishes, and I think I have a few of them logged. I'll have to save them for when I die. I'll miss our interactions/fights. Going to be boring not having to chase you!!! =p


p.s You're a good runner. Good luck with the next.

Woopooga.

You were the toughest I fought, Svirf Axe Autumn Harvest with reduce is unbeatable with a non-mace/staff rager.

Tell Zhelrantix, Jormundgaand, Vexoffesnz, and Jinroh that. Granted I got them more than they got me, but they are all very tough. Also, I use alot of preps most of the time we fought, like I do with all Villagers.


Woopooga.

Nice work on Rahno! We fought through a lot of the ranks, right up to hero. I was glad that I could count on you to not be too, too chicken sh1t. I couldn't figure out your RP (if you had one) because you seemed to go from warrior to weasle and back again. All in all I had positive emotions when I'd see your name on the who pk.

My ONE complaint is the log you posted on dios where you disarmed me and had kackrick grab it. WTF, chuck?

was just to prove that duergars can fight paladins too. Good fights, win or lose.

Duergar can definatly fight paladins. As can any race fight against someone exploiting a racial vuln.

I just haaaave to point out that you never did kill me, despite me getting you. :) mauahaha

nt

"OOOO And one thing! Do not pick duergar whip/flail, unless all you're gonna use is strip."

I think it would work okay, but not as a second spec like you had it. Trying to entwine me four times in a fight while I'm busting out maladicts wasn't going to help you win even if it landed...

You were low on con, that explains why you kept ducking behind Destructor boy when thirst fatigue set in the rare times you used it, or generally just fled and rest there. Magistrates aren't allowed to raid the cabal without a Vindicator's approval, and I guess you knew that. It started to be a pain though when Ragers felt they had the rights to try and beat on me (and only me) for chasing you around because you were a criminal. Luckily nobody came through on their promises. A Rager I could handle on a good day, but it's hard to survive high damage skills executed with good gear. (Like DEVAS pincers or demoing flurries.) Throw on their powers on top of it and it gets to be the typical uncaballed warrior versus Rager argument. It was always frustrating to have you at writhing and miss a bash, or be ready to disembowel you and you fled.

Heh. Weaponbreaker just pissed you off so much you felt the need to start using the poorly learned second spec on me, eh? :P The other thing I meant to ask was, did you really keep ending up fighting me with something urgent to be done ten or twenty minutes on the horizon? I'd beat you silly during a session sometimes with preps and sometimes without and then you'd quit out. Since you can't summon from the Rager cabal (which I think is BS) it really was an annoying game of cat and mouse with you until you lost that flag and I stepped down as Magistrate. I can imagine only landing deathblow on me three times in the course of all our fights, group or toe to toe, was really frustrating for you given how little HP halfies have compared to other warriors.

And fianlly, what went through your head when I took on you and Keiigrahv at the same time? :P

Keiigrahv hoped in it, I was on you already, you convulsed and got away. Thankfully, didnt want a gang kill unless it was a raid situ.

Thanks for the kind words. Rolled me up a duergar rager warrior, got inducted, and then found out that half of battle were duergar warriors... and all of them pretty tough...

well, i haven't played a villager (or warrior) in ages, and am still re-learning the ropes of both warrior and villager mentality, but i hope to soon become the fighting machine that you (and other strong duergar villagers) have been. i'll get there, i promise!

there are definitely some strong villagers now that i can learn from... and the way of the warrior...always learning, always adapting... we'll see!

Good luck to you, and see you in the Village soon

Each Rager should be better then the last, hopefully all you guys will do fine without one less rager. We always fought with low numbers. Continue strong, you'll go places.

Seriously my character hated you with a passion. Basically all she saw was you being retarded, spouting off like you were a badass, and the fight in the circle where you *said* you won, even though you were clearly dead despite the fact I might have been at lower health just added to her dislike of you. From an OOC perspective you were certainly a balls to the wall rager (to the point of being suicidal), which makes me wonder about things when you get kicked for not being ballsy enough...

Anyway, a couple things that bothered me in a more OOC fashion, and even though I'm sure you don't care, I'll tell you anyway.
1) cb is not a channel to be used for informing the entire cabal of your every movement/emotion/random thought. I like to use it for things that the whole cabal NEEDS to know.
2) Just because you say over cb that Rahno get, or Rahno smash or whatever doesn't mean that everyone else is going to leave that person alone just because you said so, especially when someone else, who can harm a target, reports their location.


I have some respect for the rahno as a player, so don't read this like I'm spitting on your grave, I'm just expressing both my character's extreme hatred, and my personnal dislike (more like annoyance) at the character.

Marballa

as the drunken duergar that didnt care about what anyone had to say but himself. You were cool to fight, my character was arrogant and not to mention cocky. Seems you're the first person who got what I was.

>Got booted for not attacking a mage trib in town.

You were just expressing your latent desire to join Empire.

I always knew you had it in you. }(

Sevarecan

You were a funny guy, caught you that one time in asgaard tho...
You yell 'I's nae here fer da Oath der, sorry Lord Sevarecan'
Even before you got to ask, thanks for the semi immteraction

I am glad you enjoyed your character. I had nothing bad to say about Rahno until you came up to me on the day of your uninduction ranting like a child. Granted I understood your position as a player, but I was not to blame for it yet you took it all out on me (which when I look back on it, all the berserkers did except for one). I am glad you calmed down and fought through it and got back in.

As for you being removed again, I am partially to blame for that I think, because Ordasen asked me what should happen to a rager that walks by a mage and does not attack them in fear for a flag. My answer was not forgiving, but yet Ordasen agreed with me completely, so, blame me or him or both :).

All in all a great character. You calling me Jinny grated on me first, but I let it slide and it turned out to be an enjoyable thing. You had great moments of courage, bordering on stupidity (this is a good thing and a tough RP to do actually), but such is the way of the berserker. I will tell you this, you should take some time, before you play your next warrior, and learn how to equip for stats better. A warrior without str/dex equipment (aka without his weapons), especially with no hand to hand, is going to go down quick at hero range, which you experienced. You can easily gather + 15 to 25 strength gear with non limited crap. I think that got you killed more than anything else.

Take care and good luck with your next.

I knew calling you Jinny would somewhat piss you off but I was not taking orders from a brother that was just as old as I was. I believed every experienced rager should know what to do. Guess I was wrong this time tho. Sorry bout deleting before con dieing. I fought groups just cause I enjoyed the challenge. I'll see ya around Jinny