Wed Jan 28 10:04:46 2004


At 7 o'clock AM, Day of the Moon, 35th of the Month of the Old Forces
on the Theran calendar Elspeth perished, never to return.

Race:	dark-elf
Class:	healer
Level:	51
Alignment:	Neutral
Ethos:	Neutral
Cabal:	None, None
Age:	282
Hours:	193

I liked Elspeth a lot. You and your pet shaman (heh) sure gave me a run for my money. I think you would have made a superb Entropy character if it was still around. Cerebral with a touch of self-directed humor (or at least I thought, if I was decoding your drow-arrogance correctly). I'm not playing right now, but it's characters like Elspeth that keep bringing me back.

That means a lot to me, especially coming from you.
I hope you will come back!

Well, this was my second hero and my first evil character (above rank six). I created her before I started roles, so I only had a one-line notion to go on for rp. Notion: wicked, child-like healer. So I guess she developed out of that. I struggled with the rp of being a follow of Scarabaeus and ultimately, along with a couple of other IC reasons, decided to go for redemption. I gave it all I could, praying and rping since October or so, but it just wasn't happening.

I learned a ton from playing Elspeth.

Elspeth didn't have many friends and most of both her friends and enemies are gone but *shrugs* :

IMMS
Scarabaeus: You were fun to rp with, sorry I was a terrible follower.
Vynmylak: I'm still not buying the "you're too big of a risk to redeem" bit
Shokai: ...

FRIENDS
Goronik: I know, long since dead. Loved our times together! You were one helluva nasty shaman. Much respect.
Mekantos: Elspeth always feared you - a fact she tried to cover up.
Xygarthon: Less friends, more allies. We shouldn't have been travelling together, but we made a great team!
Vorondel: Thank you for the trust and the support!
Sardinthal: Same!

ENEMIES
Tcatama: Much Respect. Great fighter, great rp. Our talks towards the end of your life are mainly what cause my change of heart.
Elrastruviel: Heh, you were the most successful at causing my death of any who tried. And you tried and tried. I moved my home base to Arkham because of you! Respect.
Skallgrim: I couldn't stand up to you for long, but I sure tried.
Battle (everyone): Elspeth really didn't mean to become an enemy!! A side effect of my problematic "going with the flow."

Well.. it was great.

Such a mean sounding title, but not really. But, this is from my perspective, and may not be shared by all the immortal staff.

I saw a lot of promise from your character, and you seemed to roleplay very well. However, just too much was missing to really be able to understand what was going on with you. Here's what I mean: Drow priestess, former (in your words) wicked, childlike healer, who abruptly goes from being one of Scarabaeus' empowered healers to a tongueless, dirt-writing healer who's found the Light and wants to be save..... All with no role. None. Not one word. Now, we do say roles are encouraged but not mandatory, and roleplaying is mandatory. You hit the basics as far as I was concerned, and showed tons of promise.

But, you've got to give the car some gas to work with. Anything of this nature (align change, deity shift, faith realization), I would hope (read: expect) a role to help the immortals out. I figured I would give some interaction and potentially see where it went, but it just wasn't enough to convince me this was something you'd (1) stick with (2) deceptive in spirit and (3) something Vyn would really do. He did see you as a broken weapon of the darkness, brought to peace and able to move onto farming, sculpting, serving bar... who knows. But, enough to give you empowerment back without knowing really what was going on. No.

So, please don't take this as a rant. As said, I saw a lot of promise from the character, and I think you are a good roleplayer. But, I for one, need a bit more to work with than just a few limited interactions for something like this to be pulled off.

thx, Vyn

No that's very constructive. I don't take that badly at all. In fact, I thought about writing a role when I decided to ask for redemption, but I thought since I didn't write one previously (her whole life) that writing one as a hero might not be believable. *snap*

Thanks!

I think it's deceptive* to players to say that roles are encouraged but not required if even one imm - you - will not do everything for a non-role person that you would for a role person**. Consider this: Just a year or two ago, before the institution of the role command, there was just as much immteraction with mortals of this type and they did it without the role command. I think what has happened is that there is an unintended negative side effect of the role command, and that is to ignore those who roleplay well but do not use a role. As you said she did.

I think perhaps you, meaning the admin staff of the game, should reconsider how you describe roles. I've seen posts from Zulg and others saying that because there was no role, they didn't invest any time in a mortal, even if there was roleplay present. Because of this I think you should say that roles are not required to play and to obtain a minimum level of success, but - and I'd put that but in big bold letters - if you seek anything remotely out of the ordinary, use of the role command is in fact required.

This seems to be the defacto standard already, and it would give those who want to go an extra mile in their character the incentive they need to do that role. Sure, some people have actually received these special benefits without a role, but better to have that than have others who may have roleplayed well enough to deserve but did not get because they didn't have a role and the relevant imm therefore did not give them the time needed.

*The word has a connotation of intent that I do not include here. I am not trying to say that you and the admin staff are trying to pull a fast one and lie to everyone. I use the word in the sense that it misleads players, even if unintentional.

**You are not alone in this, I've seen several posts of imms who behave the same way, nor do I think you are a bad person or imm for doing it.

I'm not about to start a flaming thread here. Suffice it to say this: I highly recommend roles for folks, and I personally appreciate the assistance in knowing a bit more of the character to help provide a good interaction and environment. Can it be done without? Most certainly.

Elspeth *did* receive immteraction, and quite a bit from several different immortals and did not have a role. So, I take a bit of offense at the tone that she "didn't rate" attention or was deemed unworthy due to lacking a role. Did she get what she ultimately wanted? Not from me. But, again, I'll state that it was for reasons other than no role -- the deceptive tendencies of drow and *my* character's roleplay through the interactions with her character. This is not to say she could not of continued to pursue it and receive what she was seeking from another god of the Light -- just wasn't going to happen from Vynmylak.

Never did I say it impossible, it just certainly makes things more difficult from my perspective. The role is a tool, and it helps both parties involved.

I purposely took pains to avoid being inflamatory. Why must you people just make non-flames into flames?

Anyway, the point is that while you may have had alternate reasons for denying her character's request, it was, seemingly, mostly based on the lack of role. Perhaps it was only part. Either way, it seems to me that if you (plural, the staff) are using the presence of a role as even part of the calculus to determine whether a player gets something beyond the normal benefits of their character, you should say so to the players, directly and conspicuously.

It is all well and good to say that the role is just a tool and makes it easier for you (again, plural, all the admin staff) to know the character, but that's just semantics when, as it seems here and as I know in other instances, the result in reality is that many of you don't give the extra time to a character who seeks such benefits if they don't have a role. Character A and Character B can have exactly equal roleplaying skills and exactly equal everything, but if A has a role and B does not, A will get an imm to spend more time with them because of it, and, more importantly, B will often get a "he has no role, he must not be serious about all this, I'm not going to use any of my finite amount of time getting invested in him."

I repeat what I thought I made clear above but perhaps did not, which is that I don't place a value judgment on whether all that is right or wrong (I have my views, but they are seldom wanted here). Instead what I am saying is that you should make the helpfile and public information match the reality and let players know that this is how it works, because like it or not this is how it works.

Also to be clear, this is not an attack or criticism of you, Vynmylak. I've already said publicly what I thought of you from our interactions (Darmok and a few other less well known characters) and it was all good. You are merely the person who has brought a good set of facts to discuss the issue.

From the Helpfile:

Use of the role command is not mandatory on CF. Roleplaying, however, IS mandatory, and role can help us determine if you are roleplaying exceptionally, poorly, or not at all, and reward accordingly.

End Quote.

Seems clear to me. Can you achieve more than the "minimum level of success" without a Role? Yes. Have people been given leadership roles over cabals without having a Role? Yes. So why have a Role? Well, because it can help the Imms determine if you are roleplaying exceptionally, poorly, or not at all, and reward accordingly.

I read that, and it's pretty obvious that a explanatory Role is part of the calculus. Without one, you'll have to work a lot harder.

I don't think anyone is running around saying "If this person doesn't have a written role, I'm ignoring them." I think a lot of Immortals have moments of "This character seems to want something, but damn if I know what, so I can't act on it."

Some people are good at communicating specific goals without the role command. Scion has had more than a couple role-less leaders, and it has also had at least one leader with a counterproductive (*) role. The role command is actually less necessary if you're a top-tier roleplayer, and it's spectacular if you are unsteady on your feet and feel more comfortable 'working off a script'.

However, we're not mind readers. If you have a secret plan in mind, and the only reason anyone would ever know is because every 50 hours you whisper three sentences about it, it's a good bet no one will ever approach you about your secret plan. If, however, you spent 5 minutes writing a bullet-point summary into your role, any immortal who cared would know right away, even if they are stepping in late in the action, and never saw any of your whisperings.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

(*): In the sense of: "I read it, and it suggests to me that this person really has no idea what they're doing." The person in question remained leader, however, since their IC actions befit the position, and that's what concerns me. I think my record of previous leader appointments backs this up.

About that:

Lets say I have a role that rather well describes my xhars current actions etc, but I have a future plan for the char. His RP, actions, state of mind will be changing. Is it better to throw that into my role all in the beginning? Or would I be better off adding little tidbits (paragraphs) to the role as I go through the change. Not exactly the secret plan scenario mind you :)

-Thanks

>I purposely took pains to avoid being inflamatory. Why must
>you people just make non-flames into flames?

My advice on this point is for you to realize that when you
take pains not to be inflammatory, you can still come across
as inflammatory.

>Either way, it seems to me that if you (plural, the staff)
>are using the presence of a role as even part of the calculus
>to determine whether a player gets something beyond the normal
>benefits of their character, you should say so to the players,
>directly and conspicuously.

Between help role and help empowerment this is a clear as we
currently feel it needs to be, but if you have some suggestions
on adjusting specific text in help role, drop me an e-mail and
I will take a look.

Sevarecan
sevarecan@carrionfields.com

I don't know if I agree with the 'unspoken necessity' of a role being in place for a character who wants to achieve something beyond the basic class/race archetype. I do know that I've held leader or secondary type positions in several cabals without ever having had a role. In this case I think, because of the radical alignment/perspective shift on the part of the player (Keep in mind I'm only going by what I've read in these threads) that you really can't blame anyone for nothing having happened. Would of, could of, should of and all that, hindsight is 20/20 and so forth. If I were in the players shoes I understand, feeling like you're kind'a pulling something out of your rear if you take this drastic twist and then figure, damn... a role is probably necessary for this and try to come up with one. Likewise I totally understand any good god seriously requiring either a) alot of time and proven/shown dedication to any strictly RP'd alighnment shifts etc. and/or b) Even then it would have to be solid and constantly RP'd. Otherwise, without the added benefit of knowing where the player is at least trying to head, before I'd lift a finger to help them. It's not a reflection on the player or their lack of having come up with a role, it's just how it would most likely be.

I think the primary factor that 'might' require stellar/constant roleplaying or good roleplaying and a role are characters who are either looking for something rare or extremely special, or who are going a totally different route than they had been going previously.

I also think that with just a tad of common sense and forethought, the present help role command and the information shown pretty much leaves the ball in the player's court, which is where it should be. At least in my opinion.

I consider myself a decent writer but I still have a hard time even trying to sit down and hash our a role for any given character that I could be proud of. That being said, if I was aiming to make a drow that was going to go for becoming a member of the fortress I'd figure either I'm going to do this non-stop every moment I play the character, or I really need to sit down and work out a role that will help support my goal even if I occasionally slip, rp-wise.

Most of my characters have been straight up, this is what I do and I don't swerve from the path, with varying highs and lows dependant upon any given situation. I envy those who go for the drastic changes cause that's got to be fun, in terms of development and potential immteraction, I just don't think I'm that up to snuff yet.

Wish you luck with the next...

Your chars develop into something you didnt expect..like here Tcatama impacted someone who was evils life.. (good job tcatama, as a maran thats what you want to do) you cant really plan that in a role

now since thien ive seen elspeth do nothing but aide the fort and good people and basically be what an acolyte should be..now it was this way since..a few months..thats a long time (i ran into her with three chars or so)


also doing this without being able to speak (scar ate her tongue!) so i mean..you have an unempowered drow hero heealer, formerly evil, with no tongue, an easy target for anyone..that way for months..lol

anyway I was hoping to see the switch happen..but if Vyn wasnt going to do it then she was screwed..especially since Shokai hasnt been around (well I saw him on once recently but I dont think he responded to any prayers as my healer didnt here anything back from him)

anyway, good char, good rp,

ps How you did not con-die with the imperials after you...I have no idea

Yeah, actually Elspeth was at full con with enough practices to train it twice more and she was only mature in age. I really did what I could to show that she was really only focused on helping the Fortress and the Light. Unfortunately the Immortals weren't watching from the beginning, and didn't really see the scope of it. That's alright, it was a tough one to play out, as you said, with no tongue, no powers whatsoever and being exceedingly weak physically.
..but it was fun and I did my best.

Vyn has awarded interaction and things to people without roles. I'm one of them, very recently. I would be the first to say that roles are great, but I didn't write one this time. I will, if something interesting or out of the ordinary happens, but as of now, my character is to be taken at face value (alignment, class, race). And any other character that doesn't have a role should be as well.

Would I try to change aligns or join the religion of deathfulness even though my character has a sphere of peace without a role? It's silly to think that I could.

This was my second character since the days when CF didn't have roles. When I created Elspeth, I still didn't know about them.

.

This is one for everyone out there, please don't write massive messages "in the dirt" (that typically isn't even present).

Although I'm sure I slipped up occasionally, I took _great_ care to read the description of the room and to write my messages accordingly. I drew with my finger on the marble in Shokai's shrine, I drew messages in the dust on the floorboards at the Inn, I drew with a stick in the mud near the Khalid river and scratched into the dirt on many paths throughout Thera.
So yeah. Perhaps everyone else needs this message, but it is certainly something I paid great heed to in my rp.

I disagree, i welcome you to try and write a 15 paragraph conversation in a sandpit, never mind the "dust" in the inn.

Well too bad it didn't work out for you. I was looking forward to see a drow among us :) I found that Elspeth was a solid, well-played char and I toroughly enjoyed our interactions. Sorry I did not show up at the Inn more often to converse with you, it seems I was always busy when we were both around.

Good luck with your next,

Vorondel