Thu Aug 30 11:14:55 2018

At 8 o'clock AM, Day of Freedom, 11th of the Month of the Sun
on the Theran calendar Miraric perished, never to return.

Race:	elf
Class:	warrior
Level:	40
Alignment:	Good
Ethos:	Chaotic
Cabal:	FORTRESS, the Fortress of Light
Age:	198
Hours:	53

things happen during battle. It's how you RP it afterward and after that. To delete is not good RP.

As stated, he was already rping the whole PTSD thing. How many of our current real life soldiers turn to suicide because for what ever reason they don't see redemption for their actions.

Was this hasty? Sure. But so is ending one's own life.

Disclaimer: I am not advocating for anyone to commit suicide, merely saying that to up and delete may take more balls than groveling for forgiveness.

Suicide is never the answer. Not to get on a soap box or create issue with you, but to me suicide is cowardice. I have seen it up close, in fact in my lap. It's never the solution.

Suicide is never the answer. Not to get on a soap box or create issue with you, but to me suicide is cowardice. I have seen it up close, in fact in my lap. It's never the solution.

Suicide is never the answer. Not to get on a soap box or create issue with you, but to me suicide is cowardice. I have seen it up close, in fact in my lap. It's never the solution.

not sure why my response posted three times..

Glad you popped in to give me RP advice Marrion, thanks.


I have said several times in here that my entire role was about being on the very edge mentally, and I hadn't moved the role along enough in the plans for them to be able to justify not giving it all up in the role, you know, RPing-wise.

Yes, I wish I didn't delete, but I also didn't want to just change the role that I had going to flip the script with it, because then I am ret-conning the whole thing to make it work, and I'm really not doing the PTSD thing I was trying to shine a light on for myself any justice because sometimes the sun doesn't just come out tomorrow for someone.

I heard from the grapevine that some of the Forties toasted the character's honor, which although it told me I was still a long way from getting the role out there how bad a problem alcohol was for Mir, I'm gladded to hear that he had done enough not to just be a faceless soldier in the war.

Will admit I didn't have much interaction with your character. So I didn't know the angle you were attempting. I am out of the Fort as well and lost favor of Lord Korsgaard; yet I still stay in character and remain in the game. It has open a potential door I haven't determined which fork in the road to take.

Don't take my post as I am dumping on you or judging your decision entirely. Just leaving the game because you lost favor in the Fortress is bothersome to me. I get it that Marrion failed again as well;yet it offers up something new to the game from an RP standpoint for Marrion which was hinted in her role creation too.

I hope you come back to the game soon with an edgier (sp?) role that brings forth your attempt here.

Wasn't leaving the game, just had to end that character based on the role and circumstances.

Great to hear..look forward to your next character

Really torn up about this one, I was really getting into the character and in a matter of about 2 seconds the whole character is ruined. Thanks to everyone, but I'm pissed and will revisit the thread later maybe.

The hardcore stance on not bringing harm to good aligned mobs, I think a revisit might be in order here. There are some situations, where I can totally understand, and with my last, totally get.

But when you go after a group of imperials killing goodie mobs and they shove a convulsing mob into you, it almost seems like an impossibility that you're going to kill that mob. As such, its just hard for me to blame the guy who does it. I get it, area spells in places where goodies are, Conjies and pets, but man, actively having an evil dude literally throwing a dwarf on your sword, I don't call that worthy of the rule... Maybe just me. But some leniency seems warranted. I get it, two of the three folks here weren't really punished, but the black mark is on their characters....

It's being discussed.

and was really curious to see how you worked through it based on that and now disappointed to see you deleted. Goodie mob kills don't have to be a death sentence to a character. Deletion sure is though.

PS I had a hard time seeing you as a Whiysdan follower given the role, but I think you had some real makings for a Daph follower. :)

Yeah, the Whiysdan part was supposed to be a hard path as well, wanted to kind of hit on the point that sometimes alchohol isn't a good thing. I actually don't know much about your religion yet, but I'll read up on it and think about it. My goodie roots are being tested right now.

And yeah, I knew I could come back from it, and would have if something like this happened via a mistake I made, but in this situation, I can't believe it happened at all and knew the tough row to hoe I had was 100% not my fault or something I could have done anything to avoid.

I don't play Fortress anymore for that specific reason, but that's because I have a different idea how the whole killing goodies should be handled. Currently it seems a bit to harsh for a game that already requires a large time investment.

If you neglect it and don't personally seek redemption for it - removal/punishment would be proper.

If you try to RP it out - Than let the Acolytes handle recompense for the situation, not an immortal. This creates more immersion with the characters in the game. Perhaps if you felt it wasn't handled right then step in.

If it's a repeat offense - demotion and possibly removal at this point because it seems like carelessness outweighs duty.

One thing I find discouraging is that it seems like it's based on the stat "goodie kill = 1" instead of on the situation, but that's just my perspective and could be wrong. The game is already punishing enough, and we play it because of that grueling aspect, but to punish an already beaten child is just cruel. :P

What you're describing I *think* is the current system. If you're getting booted, it's for multiple offenses or because you pretended it didn't happen.

I killed a good mob with my last maran, volunteered the info, rp'd lots before and after volunteering the info, and didn't get punished. Although I got warned not to let things happen again.

RP included visiting the nearest town in search of his family to apologise and try to help them cope. Then telling my cabal leader, and generally being a lot more cautious about checking the align of the mob before attacking.

"Before attacking"....I didnt attack anything. I was standing there trying to support. I should have been elsewhere not doing anything towards the efforts. And yes...I know I didnt need to delete, I would have been told not to let it happen again....but the first real time should have been yet to come and now it would have probably got me booted....hours and hours from now after being a lot more invested.

And was "involved" in various forms with several others, so I think I have a good perspective on how these tend to go down.

From what I saw, it's pretty simple. It doesn't matter if it's your "fault" or not. If you kill a good person, your character should feel like #### about it.

If you act like a "good" person would act when they kill another good person (upset, actively look at things you could have/should have done differently, talk to other people about it), it's not a big deal.

"Punishment" only really happens when you make a habit out of doing it, or you don't roleplay being upset about it (ie, Bubbadink).

Like I said, I had a goodie mob kill with Tamhas, and I'm pretty sure I didn't have any negative marks on my character as a result. Hell, Korsgaard said some pretty positive things on my death thread, even.

That takes a hard line on Forties killing goodies, I think my issue is that here, a convulsing mob was literally thrown on someones sword. While the mark would have been in the Pfile, I think any sane person IRL would have known that the person shoving the other person onto the guys sword was at fault. I mean jeepers, If you are trying to save dwarves from dying by attacking the guy who's killing them, he throws the dwarf on your sword, did you kill him? I don't think so. Should you be sorry he's dead, absolutely. But guilty... No, you were there to stop it, to save them, the guy just used you to finish what he had started.

On the flip side, you go in to kill the guy, throw a fireball or two, or a pillar of lightning, hell yeah, you should be spanked. But that is not the deal with this case. Not even close. Varric even said it in another post, the mob was 1-2 hits from dead when someone shoved it.

Again, I'll reiterate. I am all for a hard line on killing goodie mobs. It adds flavor, and only one of these guys had any real repercussions, and I don't have details on that. And seriously, after just having had a character that went through the whole redemption process and deleted after a second goodie kill, I stand by the policy for 99% of the situations.

My only caveat would be that there should be more game mechanics ways for goodies to not hit other goodies(conjies here please?)

Crazy to get in any trouble for attacking someone who is attacking innocents and then shoving you onto them. Its damned if you do, damned if you don't, and it's crazy to think that some hero of the light would feel guilty about killing the convulsing mob here. It honestly stretches belief and assigns way too much meaning to the killing blow, which makes it pretty hard to discuss IC.

"Aw, shucks, Captain - if only I had fled in time and the orc had killed him instead of me, then I my soul would still be pure."

Look at interviews of people who were involved fatal car crashes. Guilt is a given when you (ie, a reasonably good person with a conscience) accidentally kill someone, even if it isn't your fault.

The same is true of friendly fire incidents in the military. Someone firing artillery or a pilot providing air support has absolutely no idea what they're firing at. They're trusting the info that they get. If that info is wrong, guess who still feels guilty?

Imagine that you're watching the local news at 11pm. Let's say a kid ran into the street for his soccer ball and gets hit by a car, it happens. Not the driver's fault. Now let's say the driver was interviewed and just shrugged his shoulders and said "It's that kid's fault, he shouldn't have done that. I won't be doing anything different next time I drive down the street." Sure, it's probably true.. but you and I would both think that he was a cold-hearted bastard for that reaction. "Good" people care about the well-being of other good people, and feel bad when bad things happen.. they naturally feel worse when they are (even remotely) responsible for it.


Guilt exists even when it isn't your fault. I think that's the intent of Korsgaard's direction of the Fortress. I agree that it's probably gone overboard lately, but there should still be something resembling guilt expressed IC. If that guilt isn't there, I think it's fair to question how "good" that character is actually acting.

Obviously holding people to some standard of RP is important, but most people are also not playing CF to pretend to have PTSD

>but most people are also not playing CF to pretend to have PTSD

Miraric basically was...

Lol, yep, and I got into it a little bit with Drissa, too. Still can't be said for most. :P

I would feel very bad about hitting a kid who ran into the street even if I wasn't doing anything wrong. I would probably feel guilt. If a drunk driver ran a red light and hit my car into a kid, I would NOT feel guilt, rather I would be very, very angry at the drunk driver and maybe even beat his ass.

And just confused if the pastor kicked you out of the church for being a part of the situation :p

You can reasonably say that you SHOULDN'T feel guilt.

But if you were in that situation you described, and didn't have any emotional reaction at all to the kid getting killed by your car when you were driving, then I can confidently say you are a ####ed up person.


As far as the other comment.. it isn't about getting kicked out for accidentally killing a kid. It's getting kicked out for not caring that an innocent person died in a situation you were involved in.

"But if you were in that situation you described, and didn't have any emotional reaction at all to the kid getting killed by your car..."

I said I'd be angry. That is an emotional reaction. It comes from the believe that justice stems from holding the person who did the bad thing responsible...the drunk driver.

"...it isn't about getting kicked out for accidentally killing a kid. It's getting kicked out for not caring that an innocent person died in a situation you were involved in."

Frankly, it's people's actions that make the world go 'round, not how they feel. If someone if fighting on my side (the light in this case) how their actions contribute to the cause means everything, how they feel is frankly none of anyone's business. Nor could anyone even know to be honest.

I'm pretty sure you could kill multiple goodies the cause was that every time you attacked blades ranking on goodie mobs you got shoved and finished them off.

The rationale would be that they would definitely die if you didn't attack and at least by attaching you created a small chance that they'd live.

The same wouldn't apply if you kept attacking blades who were just standing next to goodie mobs that they then engaged and shoved.

You say it's currently too harsh, but goodie kills are also handled the exact way as you described. If you neglect it and don't personally seek redemption or are a repeat offender - removal/punishment would is on the table. When it's time to RP it out - Current Acolytes handle the situation, not an immortal. All to create more immersion with the characters in the game.

Fun fact of the day: All current Fortress leadership in a collective 1500+ hours have had zero occurrences of slaying a goodie mob.

1500 hours with no good kills has to be attributed to luck and extreme class from enemies, character but not player virtue. That’s what is so frustrating about the shove skill; it’s a great skill without being used this way but given the amount of replies here you can count on people taking the idea and using it like this to give Fort good kills more often in the near term. Are you willing to wave such incidents off if someone rps five seconds of “damn those darkie fiends” and moves on?

Drissa was 700 of those leader hours with no goodie frag incident.

Maybe they can share the secret to their success.

Obviously knowing the game helps, because there are a million ways to screw up without thinking about it. After that it involves moving methodically and slowing every action down a bit. You have to be mentally engaged 24/7 if you want to make 700 hours with no goody kills, which is extremely exhausting and did in part lead to my burn out with the character. You have to think about the consequences of every action - did you just group a WANTED person without realizing it? Are there "hostages" in the throne room? (Edited to add that of course those are ####ty examples but better examples would be "if I go south is there a previously-unknown-to-me aggro lighty mob there that I will one hit" or, while WANTED... which is something Maran should be able to be without ruining the char... "if i go south did some outlander lure agro convulsing lighty mobs into this room i can't scan into"? These sound crazy but those were literally my thought processes while playing Drissa, and I still ALMOST killed some lighty mobs by accident.)

I made my choices with Drissa but I wouldn't play a character like that again any time soon just because it is so much less mentally taxing (OOC) to not hold yourself to those standards. Of course that probably involves playing a darky if you are a powergamey type like myself and would rather have as many mechanical advantages as possible including cabal powers.

In addition to the mentally tiring part, the other issue with the Drissa approach is that it is really very limiting - for example, I waxed a goody ghost with my previous Maran, Talimor, in what I thought was a sort of ####ty and unavoidable situation in a new area. I ended up deleting him as a result. My takeaway from that experience was that if you absolutely do not want to kill a goody/rp atonement, don't explore areas you don't know. (Yikes?)

I think I got very lucky that shove was used against Drissa exactly zero times for my entire 700 hours. That's a failing of the Empire players though, not anything of my own doing.

I came EXTREMELY close to a goody kill while playing late at night one time, I typed "k arial" in Ayr'Trinil and luckily 1.arial was evil, 2.arial would have been a tragic mistake.

Okay replying to myself here but some last thoughts:

Huge difference between killing some goody guards while you are trying to kill evil inside protected areas, or a "hostage" that got shoved in front of you at convulsing, and killing goody mobs for gear. The latter should be an insta-uninduct, the former *I* would hand-wave 99% of the time unless the body count really started stacking up.

I really wanted to be WANTED more as Drissa, but it was just not worth the risk. If it had been allowed I am sure I would have killed some goody mobs by accident, and there might have been more interesting RP to be had over how much is too much and when it makes sense to accept that you are putting good lives at risk (for example going after people you think you can kill in a city vs going after that A/B/S air shifter who you know will immediately fly away).

The season of the lighthearted

You were not going to be uninducted or chastised for your role in the event. There's no way for you to have known that and what's done is done. I really liked your character, ugh.

We observed the whole thing and almost couldnt believe how insane the whole situation was. It was a snowball of aweful, but the delete was the biggest surprise. Sorry what happened occurred and I hope you give it another shot in the near future.

Shove is a cruel mistress.

I'm a hypocrite in this I know, and would tell anyone in the same situation to stick it out, but I was really mad at the situation (ooc) and the character role itself would be a very hard transition because my plans for it hadn't developed enough. I wanted to be at a point where enough positives had helped pull him out of where he was mentally, and do that all before a really hard lesson like this one happened and come back from it then...which is why I had been super careful about not getting warranted and passed up solid evil fights in town until I was at a point to risk something one that. I was even bare handed to be really careful if I had to wake Gal, and then boom, character would have been at a point where I would have had to be drunk as a skunk and catatonic in the dark alley for several logins...but other than 2-3 people at most I was a nobody and it would have been me roleplaying at a damn wall. I thought about just adjusting the role, but knew I was also at a point that all those role plans were probably shot because I couldn't play free and loose with a warrant at all now.


So...to other forties do as a say and not as I do I guess, but it was as much about my role plans and not being developed to the point for it to have happened. I'm super sad still and mad at myself for not just adjusting, but I wanted to do the role right.. and he would have killed himself there before he even left Mortorn.

You get all my rewards for putting the RP first in a sucky situation. Hope you come back soon with another!

I remember landing 7 or 8 deathblows on the giant as Quamlu... They had already maledicted the giant and with whirlwind I was landing six or more hits a round... Those DB's happened in the space of pummel lag!

I am disappointed to see this, in that particular situation there was essentially nothing that you could have done there once the decision to engage us was made. The mob in question being within 1-2 hits from dead.

If I take an extreme stance, not fighting at that point would have negated it 100%.

But what happened happened. I think tho a big opportunity has been missed, and I do get it we all want the good, we want 27 legacies, sanc on a stick and 100 million dam roll. But sometimes its not smooth sailing sometimes you need to roll with the punches because good or bad an opportunity is an opportunity and I always believe that the Imms are looking at how we as players respond to the opportunities. Particularly the ones we may deem as "Bad" because you know what they are the toughest ones to get through and hence have the potential for the biggest pat on the back.

I agree, and would have roleplayed it out if it was something I had some control over, I didn't even think about the possibility of it since I wasn't there to fight, just to wake someone if they got slept because I had no one in range.

Most forties don't see gold auras, so it is hard to say, oh...those evils are fighting, perhaps they will stand there a moment while I go in an con all of the mobs to make sure nothing bad happens.

I'm weary of Fort feeling like an AA meeting where every note I see is My name is Habbs, and I too have killed a goodie. Wasn't roleplay that I wanted to fall into, I've been the one talking people down from this ledge enough times already.

"I'm weary of Fort feeling like an AA meeting where every note I see is My name is Habbs, and I too have killed a goodie. Wasn't roleplay that I wanted to fall into, I've been the one talking people down from this ledge enough times already."

Agree with this. It is exhausting, and it's not even particularly interesting RP the vast majority of the time.

I've put it in a handful of threads at this point but I would be particularly keen on a return to the more lax rules that were in place a few years ago - see Twist's description of Natesthal's goody killing experience. Waxing a few goodies in the pursuit of duty (getting shoved in front of captives, killing an Arkham guard while WANTED and chasing a mummy) should probably just get hand waved as long as the person in question doesn't act like nothing happened.

Is that I think everyone feels like they need to follow the same formula.
Step 1. Write a note to Fort.
Step 2. Have a generic interaction with Aurew (I do feel for that player by now).
Step 3. Collect XX gold for some random mob.

I do agree all of that is unnecessary, however there should be some level of RP'ing going on when a goodie kills another goodie. Remorse, regret, thinking about if there was another way of doing things. Just about anything beyond "Eh, #### happens." would be fine, IMHO.

The problem I have with this is you don't actually feel anything as
a player but annoyance that now you have to waste time doing boring
"atonement". Every instance I've seen looks like bad acting, myself
included. It isn't interesting, you're character is going to go on
almost completely unchanged other than you (The player) might be
more aware of potential casualties.

Another thing that is always weird to me is why would the family of
the guy you just killed want your gold? I would think they would want
you dead or your life ruined and then maybe take your gold. Maybe
that's just me.

Double wrath vuln for 24 hours
Goodie healers won’t help for 48 hours
No request for a week
Auto afflict of some of those breaker path sups that make you question things.

Perhaps as the kills go higher the penalty gets worse or lasts longer.

Added bonus that it affects more than just fort. Would also make sense for dwarf on dwarf.

And maybe no Fort powers as their connection to the Orb's power is broken. 24-48 hours in game is a solid amount, could bump it up to 60 even if you want it to be harsher. Builds in some time where you are impacted in game, gives a nice reminder to RP something whether it's grief, resentment of the guy who got in your way, self hatred, whatever.

And yes, obviously, you keep tabs on people and give them the boot if they aren't living up to the Creed.

It's not the only way to do and if you proactively take an alternative you might not be pursued to do this?

For example my plan was to give the dead guy's family a nominal amount of gold (like, 2 gold), nothing challenging mechanics wise because realistically a fortune in gold isn't necessarily what's needed as recompense. I also planned to give food etc which can be done regularly so make for better long term to opportunity.