Sun Jun 11 07:32:33 2017

At 3 o'clock AM, Day of Freedom, 4th of the Month of the Old Forces
on the Theran calendar Shalic perished, never to return.

Race:	half-drow
Class:	bard
Level:	51
Alignment:	Evil
Ethos:	Orderly
Cabal:	EMPIRE, the Empire
Age:	95
Hours:	173

So, I didn't delete because I died and lost gear, I deleted with all my stuff. Basically this game for me now is PVE and that means Inferno. Once again good work Sacer, more of hell discovered on this character and more enjoyment.

War Master and High Priest went and deleted so I really can't see much point to continue.

PVP on an imperial bard is kind of pointless when every person I fight is an elf. I think the song-resistance on elves get should be nerfed a little. I have literally tried over 40 songs in a single session and landed 1 out of 40. Against elves, I am pretty much unkillable healer that can't do anything back.

That's the way CF is though, especially in off-peak times which are the only times I can get on. You get the pks you don't really want, because better matchup's don't happen, those people don't log on or don't fight. Sure I contribute to this too, it's just how it goes unfortunately. It wont change unless they completely revamp the pk death system, perhaps remove con loss and only lose some of your gear or something. People invest too much time in their characters gear to take a lot of risks. Which I confess too, I think I only died to Jakhu at level 30 (damn you!), least I can't remember anyone else.

PVE and PVP don't work so well together either. Thaedan kept coming for me, but geez, I am holding all the functional items that I need for hell. It's just not going to be beneficial at all to allow him to be in the same room as me. Then one trip after 5 hours and fighting pit-fiends on the 9th and a paladin takes the codex...omg so annoying, he literally ruined our trip.

I also have a gripe on the weight/tanking code. To me, this seems a bit unfair, I might be bias, I play all chars like mages and I like heavy girdles with lots of stuff. Seems a bit unfair to punish tanking classes while everyone else gets no penalty. I think this is one of those things were realism is in the way of game balance.

I also have serious gripes about how the PK system is set up, but I disagree with the second half of your post. I feel like you're complaining about disadvantages that your class/cabal have (which will and should exist for everything).

1. You're complaining about when you're in hell and then the codex gets taken. So what you're saying is that you purposefully choose to be in a cabal with some of the strongest powers, powers that let you go the furthest in hell, but then you complain when someone is able to take it away from you? That makes 0 sense.

2. You're complaining about weight, when it is without a doubt that dex > str right now. You're essentially advocating that dex chars get a huge boost to their defensive abilities? I don't see how that's unfair.

This might have come off as a bit snarky and it's not meant to be, but it just seems like you want a perfect set up, which CF should not advocate.

>2. You're complaining about weight, when it is without a doubt
>that dex > str right now. You're essentially advocating that
>dex chars get a huge boost to their defensive abilities? I
>don't see how that's unfair.

If dex classes have too much advantage, then the imms can modify the tanking code directly. I don't think part of the balance should be based on weight when there are so many other ways to do it.

Ugh.

10+ online most of the time, 20-25 during peak which lasts significant hours, lots of new imms, lots of PK.

The caliber of players on this game is pretty high - sad to see this guy delete, but his experience and mine have been very different. I think it's easy to get annoyed/frustrated when your hell trip buddies all delete, but just because what he enjoyed about the game isn't available to him without Undemelm/Kotu doesn't mean that CF is doing poorly.

>War Master and High Priest went and deleted so I really can't
>see much point to continue.

Could there be a new War Master and High Priest? Could you take the reins and lead the Inferno trips yourself? You're basically saying, "My character existed for no other reason than be led on hell trips by Kotu and Undemelm."

>PVP on an imperial bard is kind of pointless when every person
>I fight is an elf.

1 out of 40 seems hard to believe, but I'll assume you're accurate. Maybe they just all had resist mental? Given how easy it is to keep on hand, I know I wouldn't fight a bard without resist mental unless I were a rager. Also it's not all elves. Off the top of my head: Ghrimmli, Pomeu, Ghek, Telez, Gyrld, Kanlax, Garfuka, Mordikai, Kaiden, Thaedan, Yanni, Aerton, Zinszar, Poja, Odoe, Saeorad, Eryari. Probably some others I'm missing.

But I agree: PvP is tough when there are fewer players around, and as a bard, all the ones you match up well against will just run from you. I found bard PK in general to be frustrating. Ended up playing my bard like a necromancer. Sleep, maledict, fiend. Maybe you just picked the wrong combo if you wanted to do PvP?

>That's the way CF is though, especially in off-peak times
>which are the only times I can get on.

My play times are pretty varied and I almost never saw Shalic. When I did, it was usually when there were other Empire characters online. You're not going to get a lot of PK encounters when you're cruising around w/ the Imperial gank squad, outside of re-raid situations where some poor sap decides to throw himself into the meat grinder.

>only died to Jakhu at level 30 (damn you!)

Who hasn't died to Jakhu in the 30s? It was like a rite of passage for a while there. *fistshake*

>PVE and PVP don't work so well together either. Thaedan kept
>coming for me, but geez, I am holding all the functional items
>that I need for hell. It's just not going to be beneficial at
>all to allow him to be in the same room as me.

That's one non-elf you could have fought. Just sayin'.

>I also have a gripe on the weight/tanking code. To me, this
>seems a bit unfair, I might be bias, I play all chars like
>mages and I like heavy girdles with lots of stuff. Seems a
>bit unfair to punish tanking classes while everyone else gets
>no penalty.

Dexy classes are overpowered. Dexy classes get the shaft because weight affects dodge. Pick one!

>Could there be a new War Master and High Priest? Could you
>take the reins and lead the Inferno trips yourself? You're
>basically saying, "My character existed for no other reason
>than be led on hell trips by Kotu and Undemelm."

It's not the knowledge, i've got plenty of saved buffers of hell trips. It is the lack of the right classes and people that can play during the time I play. Was so lucky to get as many as we got.

>Off the top of my head: Ghrimmli, Pomeu, Ghek,
>Telez, Gyrld, Kanlax, Garfuka, Mordikai, Kaiden, Thaedan,
>Yanni, Aerton, Zinszar, Poja, Odoe, Saeorad, Eryari. Probably
>some others I'm missing.

I mean you are right, I guess since I was not that interested in pking that much, it was mostly people who wanted to fight me and those were all elves!


>Maybe you just picked the wrong combo
>if you wanted to do PvP?

I guess I didn't really want to that much.

>You're not going to get a lot of PK
>encounters when you're cruising around w/ the Imperial gank
>squad, outside of re-raid situations where some poor sap
>decides to throw himself into the meat grinder.

Most of my pk encounters were solo. I did not do much pking with the empire that I joined for hell because everyone is worried about getting hit for perma groups these days and you certainly don't need to be real life friends for that as well.

>Who hasn't died to Jakhu in the 30s? It was like a rite of
>passage for a while there. *fistshake*

I just entered his pk and when I learnt that he was on the mud I was in neurological paralysis and got my first command in at the pit.

>Dexy classes are overpowered. Dexy classes get the shaft
>because weight affects dodge. Pick one!

They can be balanced without using weight. I mean if we gonna worry about realism, how can we have 10 spare weapons in our backpack?

My point on dexterity and weight is just that the weight code only affects dexterous characters, and some folks already think dexterous characters are overpowered. Ergo if you're playing something that has to worry about weight, you're already playing something that's allegedly overpowered. So boo hoo.

It makes even dumb characters song resistent. It makes intelligent races pretty much impossible to do anything against with songs before they kill you.

Gr

Your post comes off as really whiney... It seems like you rolled up an explore bard, and complain that you can't pk... Well, if your purpose was to explore, why do you even care? Like, you have to understand that this game isn't going to roll over for you. Sometimes you're going to have to eat ####, but that's how it's always been.

I feel like there is a group of people who play this game who simply don't understand that there will ALWAYS be challenges to playing any character. Sometimes you can overcome them, and sometimes you eat ####. Like, sure elves are really difficult to land a song against, so why not just go straight damage (Vibrato) and hope they make a mistake. If you're clever enough, it can work out. And if it doesn't, tough titty. That's CF. Ya win some, ya lose some...

Buck up champ. Stow all that complaining and get back in there, private! I believe in you! GLWYN.

Because bards suck in PK now w/o major time investment :)

So play something else?

He is, some other game.

Keep up.

That's a first.

Even if you claim otherwise.

I did, I just wasn't overtly PK oriented in my playstyle.

While I agree that Bards are awful in PK, outside of group fights, that's not really why I don't play CF anymore.

But neither of those are really death thread topics.

I was just wondering how bards being generally bad at PK got somehow linked to why I don't play CF.

Fun gained from gaming experience is less than chores required to play.

And bards being bad at PK worsens serial bard's gaming experience. 100% info.

At least, they were before tail of the lizard scrolls were removed.

I found them quite challenging outside of sleep/maledict/fiend. Can't lag very well. No stealth. Can't summon.

Also the fact that songs, being area affect, lag you even when the target isn't in the room. So it's hard to use them as an opener when chasing people down.

Right :)

NT

That depends. Is great at PK based on survivability (I'd agree they are great at this) or Kill Sealing (they suck at this)? From your characters, I'd go with you value the former over the latter. Which I do as well, but the general consensus seems to be kill sealing = PK efficacy.

And on that basis they just really aren't strong in PK, at least on a solo basis.

Granted, I never used tail scrolls, but if the impact of them is to mitigate bash lag, who cares? This is upping my survivability. The fact that I'm not lagged as much doesn't change what I have at my disposal to seal the kill. The flaws of the bard still persist which is very low ability to keep people engaged in a fight that don't want to be, and ####ty kill sealing. And if you say fiend, I'll laugh.

Sure, having a bard with 20+ edges can be effective solo, but the average run of the mill bard is very little threat to I'd say 90% of the mud. Too many things have to go right, or your opponent has to be stupid. Unless you want to talk about having a vast array of scrolls/talismans to aid, which goes back to the point of too much time commitment to maintain efficacy.

Bard +ally is entirely different.

I loved bards, but I'd say playing one to be a PK machine is going to lead to disappointment.

It is key in getting your enemy to overcommit.

Also, bards aren't bad at kill sealing. Sure, they haven't got entwine or pincer, but roundhouse is still awesome compared to what most shifters or paladins got.

It's not impossible to still get the 6-7 really important edges, too. Others are mostly just convenience, or downtime mitigation.

Case in point: I am good at survival but terrible at landing kills, and I still got 49 PK wins with a bard. In fact, it was a goodie, Tribunal bard. And he wasn't Provost.

Which adds to Murph's legend.

Over committing is a player being stupid. It happens, but smart players know when to stay and when not to.

Roundhouse is trip lag, if it lags. If you think you're winning a fight spamming roundhouse, you're crazy. Second attack + enhanced does not really win passive damage when lagging people.

And a tribunal bard would be one of the easiest builds to kill with. Manacles and guards are pretty useful.

I'm perfectly fine with you (and everyone else) thinking that bards suck at PK and kill-sealing.

For fun, I went back and checked the # of bard deaths on the characters I've aged died:

Lithodora: 0
Sivyh: 3
Ageryn: 3
Sulye: 1
Kasir: 1
Waserax: 0

This actually surprised me, since I can't really remember dying to bards. So I went and looked up the actual deaths:

Ageryn: Two group fights where Hanord got the KB + one solo kill by Gvantulak.

Sivyh/Sulye/Kasir: Too long ago that I can't remember which names belong to bards. I did look up everyone who killed these characters solo, though, and none of the ones with published PBFs were bards. Its possible that some of the people who killed me solo, but never bought a PBF, were bards.


This is heavily skewed by which classes and alignments I play, but the combos that tend to *solo* kill my characters either have bash, can put me to sleep, or have a one-shot skill like assassinate or PWK.

NT

Yeah, that would probably work most of the time. I'm crap at gambling so I never have orbs of travel on hand.

You play hiding classes with little ability to hold bard in place reliably (you can't triplag them b/c they tank well).
Bards can't kill you reliably (can't see, can't lag, can't anything).

Hence the outcome.

You've had a good chance of killing my bard recently and I've survived miraculously. You may take that as +1 on your current :)

>Sure, having a bard with 20+ edges can be effective solo, but
>the average run of the mill bard is very little threat to I'd
>say 90% of the mud. Too many things have to go right, or your
>opponent has to be stupid. Unless you want to talk about
>having a vast array of scrolls/talismans to aid, which goes
>back to the point of too much time commitment to maintain
>efficacy.

This was going to be my approach, and even if I'd stuck it out I doubt I would ultimately have been that effective. Basically act like a crappy necro or anti-paladin.

Things I could bring to bear on a slept person given enough time, depending on align/cabal: soften, major malison, fire malison, weaken, poison, plague, scourge, curse, slow. Some more reasonable to keep on hand than others. For some builds, major malison, weaken and plague would be pretty trivial. Plus all the built-in bard songs.

If you can get a melee guy malisoned, cursed, and weakened enough to drop a weapon, then he has a decent chance of dying to your fiend. Especially if you can get off a damage spell before he teleports away. Then again, you need ~4-5 hours to apply all that stuff and getting that much uninterrupted time to sing/recite/brandish at someone is a big ask.

I also thought about using a certain quest reward to great effect on a bard, to bolster kill-sealing, but in order to do so I'd have to give up some of the maledicts above.

Several logs have been posted, I remember once Shams fought one for 1 hr RL and died to it, Jutunn hit me with a few unkillable ones, as did some of Alex's early bards.

When they nerfed fiend, they nerfed it too hard. I could never even get it to land on all the ####ing drow et al when I played my hero bard.

I'm sorry the class disappointed you. I don't know that it would have been less disappointing even during peak times, given your expectations.

If any of the below seems mean or nasty, I don't mean it to be. Don't take it personally - I didn't see I didn't have a chance to see or hear much about your character. It looks like you were part of a group that was extremely successful in Hell. I know how grueling that can be, and you deserve a huge congrats.

Bards can be deadly in some scenarios, but it usually requires a lot of preparation and planning. Even then, the class doesn't tend to lend itself to getting huge amounts of PKs. They're very survivable and adaptable, and they are absolutely amazing for support, cabal raids/defense and exploration.

You almost nailed it here, but not quite: "Against elves, I am pretty much unkillable healer that can't do anything back."

There *are* things you can do back, but they'd have to stick around and let you do it to them if you don't have someone with you to bash them. That's where stuff like feign weakness comes in -- it helps you dupe them into sticking around long enough to die because they think they're winning.

Re weight/tanking, you don't have to have maximum dodge ability to be a decent tank, especially with the damage reduction options available to a bard.

If you don't mind, I'll get on my soap box for a second.

In general, I've seen a lot of people get upset when something isn't perfectly optimal. It tends to ruin the enjoyment of the game. Weight ratio, for instance. 95 times out of 100, the 50 lbs over the 50% carry weight is not going to get you killed. "I wanted X path for my shaman, but I got Y, so I'm ruined," etc.

Even stock shamans are incredibly deadly, and most of the new shaman path supplications, I think, are overused and overvalued. (They all get damnation, plague, and energy drain, you guys!)

My one plea to everyone as a CF idealist is to let go of min/maxing and try to see your character as a story. Every up and down is just part of the crazy rollercoaster of your character's life. If it's bad and you stick around long enough, it'll get good. If it's great and you stick around long enough, it'll get bad. That's just how stuff goes.

Same money, twice as fun!

Which really means...expect to be disappointed like all the other guys/gals I told that to :(