Wed Sep 30 07:06:09 2015

At 2 o'clock PM, Day of Thunder, 10th of the Month of the Dragon
on the Theran calendar Camdon perished, never to return.

Race:	human
Class:	thief
Level:	46
Alignment:	Evil
Ethos:	Orderly
Cabal:	EMPIRE, the Empire
Age:	54
Hours:	161

Aside from sinking in the whirlpool... twice in a row.

Pity you've deleted, you sure seemed to compliment Caecilius way of running the sect very well, it almost seemed that you have rolled just to be his lieuteinant - totally awesome.

P.S. That time when I was roleplaying thinking by telling obscenities to myself and you eavesdropped on me was so hilarious I couldn't believe it. There was more to it but that will wait till when the character is gone.

I actually did roll with the intent of getting close to him. Trapper thieves were one aspect of the thief class that I could never quite nail down. There were a lot of intricacies that I'd never been able to figure out before. Now I know that I didn't figure them out because they were level dependent, and I never leveled a trapper thief up high enough to experience them before. Becoming his lieutenant was more than I expected, and I actually didn't intend on keeping Camdon nearly as long as I did. Getting promoted to Elite was always in the plan for me, but I didn't expect it to come with the high level of influence that it did. I've had an Elite Shadow and two Elite Blacks before, but never did the position come with as much influence and authority as what Camdon had been given. That extra authority is what kept Camdon in the game for as long as he was, and in fact, convinced me that I wanted to keep him active to replace Caecilius. Unfortunately, during the log in previous to the login when I deleted, I had a rather frustrating experience that soured me on Empire entirely.

I was out gathering coin to get my donations back up (I used centurions a lot, so my donations went down quickly), and Outlander raided with Anathema Jessa helping. I knew that I was badly outgunned even with 4 shawtabbies and a mercenary at my command, and that if I showed up I'd be killed quickly and looted badly, with the mask being the number one prize up for grabs. Overall, it didn't seem like a wise course of action for a Shadow, so I held back, biding my time to go retrieve and fight the anathema under better circumstances. Then I see this:

Imperial Quisitor: Too busy to defend, Camdon?

Since I don't play Imperials very often (pretty rarely, actually), and don't often have an Imperial character that's high enough to receive automated messages from the Cabal inners, I didn't realize that was NOT an automated message, so I ignored it. A short while later, I got demoted from Elite to Dweller. I don't know if that intentional to knock me down twice, or if I misread my screen, but I do remember checking my title and seeing Shadow Dweller. I also remember seeing "YOu have lost access to the Sect Channel" simultaneously. I headed to the Palace and tried to talk to the Inquisitor about it, but got no response. So I started trying to make my way to the Refuge, but every path I looked into was guarded by foes. I ended up engaging Jessa and setting a pile of traps for him while he attempted to chase down a rogue shawtaby. Having been a Shadow underneath me for quite a while, he knew my tactics and refused to set off my traps. Instead, he called in air support and had an air shifter come to me to spring my traps for him, then he came in immediately and proceeded to kick my ingredients-weighted-down ass. Meanwhile, air shifter flew off and recovered from my traps quickly, then came back to pursue me. I was forced to run for cover from the the combined chase, and couldn't make it to safety running away from the ocean, so I stepped out onto the Open Sea, and was immediately attacked by a water shifter with an electric eel. Needless to say, I died very quickly at that point, and lost the mask, plus a few other choice items.

Basically, what kept me playing this character had just been taken away, specifically, a Shadow being allowed to actually BE a Shadow, . My past experience with playing Shadows was that the Shadow Sect was treated like it's just an extension of the Blade Sect, but with the ability to hide and stealth-related powers instead of combat powers. Having an Imm force me into a confrontation which I KNEW was a trap designed from the beginning to kill me and take the mask really soured me on playing Empire. When I complained to the Imm in question, I was told, "Having an anathema in your house raises expectations." and that I "should go punch a pillow or something and cool off." Anathema in your house may very well raise expectations, but a death trap is still a death trap. Apparently this Imm's idea of Self, Sect, Empire, is that it's better for Self to throw your life away and give a power artifact under Imperial control into Enemy hands than to preserve both. In retrospect, what I should have done was stripped naked, dropped everything in a place with an obscure room name or a room name that's so common no one is likely to find it if they locate my things (enemy shaman around), and then gone off to die feebly, then retrieve my belongings and log off.

As it stands, I now know that Shadows still suffer from the same misconceptions that have plagued them since the fall of the Arcane Sect and the rise of the Shadow Sect. Consequently, it will likely be a very long time before I attempt another Shadow.

To Caecilius, I loved roleplaying with you. You had a fresh take on the Shadow Sect, not just in the way you applied Sect Law, but in your leadership style also. I hated to delete and leave you hanging after all our discussions and all you gave me (and I don't mean gear), but the fun just went out of the character after that experience. The demotion itself wasn't the discouraging factor. I knew that if I explained the situation to you, I'd be promoted back up again probably immediately. What did me in was knowing that this whole thing was just going to be repeated again in the future, and I didn't think it was worth my time anymore, knowing that.

Thought you did a great job.

If my perception at the moment of demotion was accurate, and I did get knocked down twice, then sometime between then and retrieving things from my corpse, one rank was restored to me and I either didn't notice, or it was done discreetly (or perhaps I simply misperceived the demotion in the first place, idk).

'Apparently this Imm's idea of Self, Sect, Empire, is that it's better for Self to throw your life away...'

It is a shame some IMMs are so willing to quickly pull the trigger on stuff without actually knowing the Sect dogma. I'd think I'd try to figure out the dynamics of the situation before punishment.

Cam was actually at fault for _ignoring_ Inquisitor. Had he roleplayed about measuring risks and preparing traps - I doubt there would be any concequences.

That sucks. You might not have gotten busted down so far, though, if you hadn't ignored the cabal guardian talking to you.

Only way I can think of to approach that situation is to set traps and hope they hit them on their way out, get blinded, then dash in and steal the codex. But you wouldn't know who was carrying it unless you had someone posted at the palace to ask the Inquisitor.

Also, if they were smart, they'd just have the air shifter fly it back. And if that guy is Valdifer then that poses additional problems for you.

Side note on the rest of Camdon's life:

You seemed to like to set up these grotesque trap situations and then expect me to walk into them. Getting me to walk into trap fest was the right plan, but IMO you made them a little too obvious.

I thought about that when the attack began, but Jessa mostly hung back after the Vanquisher fell, and only after seeing that I wasn't coming yet, did he engage the inners. This suggested to me that he was holding back, expecting my arrival. Which would have prevented me from setting a pile of traps like that. The challenge with trappers is you need stealth and a little time to be effective. If the enemy can see you coming, they can stop you from doing what you need to do. That was the main reason I also took the Thug path. Something to fall back on when traps weren't enough. Even though I didn't kill you but I think once, and with Caecilius helping me trip (and Liffy accidentally sancing me, which seriously cracked me up, btw), I did send you running quite a few times. But in every case, I had a chance to get started setting the traps before you arrived, knowing you would eventually get there. So then all I had to do was maintain them. There were times when obvious was what I wanted. There were times when I tried for subtle, but something happened that ruined it, usually on my end. I actually had concocted some brilliant setup, but then never had the chance to use them as my play times became more restricted and our paths crossed less and less. I'll just have to save them for the future I guess. It'll be sweet when I get to see them come to fruition.

All in all, though, Camdon did accomplish the purpose I had rolled him for, if not the purposes I added in later. I didn't have a written role for him at all because I hadn't initially planned on keeping him long-term.

I wanted to learn about traps, and from playing in opposition to Caecilius, I knew he would be a good one to learn from. So I did everything I could to win Caecilius' approval. I concocted a backstory on the spot when he was interviewing me before offering me the oath. I chose a story that was in stark contrast to his own, but also complemented his (I didn't know anything about his, really, but his last name(s) told me all I needed to know). I imitated many aspects of his style, while still keeping some of my own flavor to avoid looking like a toadie. While Caecilius has a more laid back, indirect style but still filled with malice (which I thought was a slick combination), I took a harsher, sterner approach, more in keeping with a proper thug personality. I still gave younger Shadows multiple chances to prove themselves, but was quicker and less subtle about pouncing on mistakes than Caecilius.

My perception was that if you make a mistake in Caecilius' eyes, you might not know about it for a long time, if ever, depending on what the mistake was, but there would be definitive consequences. You just wouldn't realize you were being punished, which, of course, would make the punishment last longer, since you might continue doing the wrong thing--again, depending on the mistake. If you made a mistake in front of me, the consequences were obvious. A blatant warning was first, followed attempts at correction. If the correction was received and followed, you had another chance. If not, you and the entire Sect knew of your failure, as Zqoemoa found out (btw, Zqoemoa, that incident cracked me up too. I was like, "Oh, this dude is SO BUSTED!"). I thought Caecilius' and my styles complemented each other well, sort of a Good Cop Bad Cop routine, and I got the impression that he appreciated the contrast early on, so I stuck with it and played it up.

That was actually one thing that I found somewhat challenging about Camdon, too. My own RL personality is very different. I do believe very strongly in discipline, but I have a very gentle way about it, that (I think) makes people just "want" to comply. And it works well. That made it a constant battle for me with Camdon, trying keep him hard faced and tough, when my personal response would be much more relaxed and easy going.

In the end, I guess I pulled it off, because I had the distinct impression that Camdon had been given authority to act on Caecilius' behalf without having to consult with him first, and that Camdon deserved the utmost respect from the rest of the Sect. It hadn't yet been spelled out to me at that point, but it seemed that way. So when Zqoemoa mouthed off openly and then cursed me to himself (while being eavesdropped), all while I was in the middle of trying to correct him on some errors he'd made that I knew Caecilius would frown on, I knew I had no choice but to demote him on the spot. Immediately afterward, I was thinking, "Oh crap! I hope I didn't just overstep my authority!" And then the very next thing I did took it even a step further. I wrote a note to the Sect making a public example out of Zqoemoa as a lesson of what NOT to do and what would happen to those who failed. I figured, "Hell, if I'm going to go down for this, I'm going down in a blaze of glory." And then so as to not seem TOO overly bold, I wrote a note to Caecilius explaining the situation in a bit more detail, stating that I believed I had acted appropriately, and offered myself for correction if I was mistaken. The next time I logged in, I almost choked on my Sierra Mist when I read Caecilius' note to the sect in response to mine, not only confirming what I'd said, but taking it several steps further, and pretty much putting me into a position that would be very difficult for anyone to challenge without extreme risk.

When all was said and done, I had learned everything I was missing about trapper thieves, and also had a character went above and beyond my expectations for him.

I'm thinking the Sodsob option would have worked best. Construct your ambush at an area border where I wouldn't see it coming, then just hope that I blunder into it. I can't think of a great spot off hand, but I'm sure one probably exists.

Sounds like you had fun at least.

But what I would say is, just because you the player know a message is automated does not mean you should ignore it, because your character sure as hell wouldn't openly ignore it. So ignoring it was a bad move even if you put aside the fact that it wasn't automated.

Who was the eel, out of interest? (I ask because I also am in the habit of getting slaughtered by electric eels. Stealth + lag + huge damage output + in many cases the supporting skills to zap up while hidden = imbalance imo.)

I demoted you. For what it's worth, Destuvius supported the decision, though in this case I asked for forgiveness instead of permission.

I probably chose the Inquisitor's words poorly. The sentiment wasn't so much that he was upset that Camdon wasn't charging into the thick of it but that he didn't seem to care in the first place and did not appear to be planning any response (defense, retrieval, steal the item back, etc.) at all.

You almost certainly wouldn't have been demoted if you had responded to the Inquisitor with something at all with the exception of maybe sass. You say you thought it was an automated thing and I hear you, but that's on you.

You were only demoted once.

I sympathize with the fact that you ultimately died and lost equipment that you were particularly attached to. What was done (your demotion) was done, and the Inquisitor wasn't asking you to go get into a fight on the ocean or intent on punishing you further for not doing so. I think you got yourself killed out of frustration and anger (regardless of whether your blame was correctly placed), but if not then I suppose we can both be disappointed things went the way they did.

Good luck with your next.

I'm sure I just mis-perceived the level of demotion. When it happened, I do remember reading an echo about losing access to the Sect channel, which is what really freaked me out, since Imperial Shadow still has Sect channel access. Maybe that was something else that was a figment of my imagination, or maybe it was a bug. I don't really know. It might be worth at least looking into, just in case it was a bug.

Either way, at the time, I didn't think I had the time to sit around trying to figure out what did or didn't happen. The demotion was clear, and if in fact I HAD been demoted twice, that didn't leave any room left before oath was next, or even just straight to anathema. I really didn't know what to expect, and didn't want to take any chances of being anathema for not responding immediately.

As I mentioned before, a single demotion (had I realized it was such) wouldn't really have bothered me much, since I knew Caecilius would have just promoted me back immediately. One of the things he and I had discussed on several instances with lower Shadows was weighing the possible outcomes of Self, Sect Empire, and defining what is best for Self. Does one serve oneself best by preserving one's own life, knowing it may get him demoted, or does one serve oneself best by charging into certain death to satisfy the ego of a pompous superior? Had I realized it was just one demotion, and if I'd had reason to believe that no more would be forthcoming, I would have taken the demotion as a slap on the wrist and resumed biding my time. I would have found some ranger patsy to tell me what outlanders were still around, or hired someone to go hit the Huntress and weaken her for me, and then retrieved when I knew it was safe.

But when someone with the power to permanently trash your entire character starts throwing down consequences for disobedience, that sorta clears up the debate about how to best serve oneself. Anything other than obedience leads to oblivion, so the choices get kinda limited at that point.

You say the Inquisitor wasn't intent on not punishing me further, but from the perspective of a mortal who just got smacked down by an unknown Imm (and therefore unable to be gauged in how far they're likely to push things) using the body of highly ranked Divine sect (who have a reputation for being pompous, demanding, and overly zealous), there's no reason to believe that further punishment isn't coming unless swift obedience takes place. From a mortal perspective, I really didn't have any choice to but do everything possible to try to retrieve. Since it was a trap from the beginning, though, my path to retrieve was entirely blocked. I didn't go "get into a fight on the ocean." I was ambushed on the ocean, which would have happened even if Jessa hadn't been guarding the winery. No matter which way I went, I had to cross that ocean (I know there's a secret way across without touching the water, but I can never remember how to navigate that area, especially after being gone for over a year), and the eel would have been waiting for me. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he was sitting there spamming where pk the entire time, with "swimto cam/shock cam" copied into his clipboard, ready to hit ctrl-v/enter the moment I popped up on WHERE. That may not have been the case, but it's certainly what I would have been doing if the roles had been reversed.

My main mistakes were in not responding to the Inquisitor, and mistakenly thinking I had been demoted twice. Actually, being address by the inquisitor kinda upset me in and of itself because of the attention it drew down on me in front of the entire cabal, as I mentioned in my reply to Twist's comment. That actually got me kind flustered and clouded my thinking as my mind started racing with how stupid it was to have automated messages calling attention to Shadows like that. So I was not really in a clear-thinking frame of mind when the demotion had occurred.

Anyway, what's done is done, and I'm getting too tired to express my thoughts clearly right now. So I'm going to bed. I'm just hoping Imms stop to consider for a moment a mortal's perspective in response to Imm action, before taking that action, and gauge if that's the result the Imm is looking for from the mortal.

"...I didn't realize that was NOT an automated message, so I ignored it."


One of my biggest peeves with the automated messages. The first week they were implemented they might have actually done something. After that they were at best ignored and at worst used as an advantage (If there were more Outlander heroes on than Imperial heroes, for instance, the automated "Do not let the Outlanders stand in your way, retrieve the Emperor's Fetish!" wouldn't go through).

So a while ago (a couple years now, probably?) Destuvius and I hashed out what should stay and what should go.

Now it's largely about hey kill that Anathema, with very rare automated messages about other stuff.


My Emperor Bard Hanord used to have conversations with them after each automated message. But he was a drunk.

I certainly didn't and it's not something you can really work out as a player.

Well those sessions certainly serve well as a starting point for short rp sessions, if you're bored. I've used them as such more than once.

at least for Shadows, is that one unique aspect of being a Shadow is that when you log in, you get announced by the Imperial Assassin ONLY OVER SECT channel, so the rest of Empire (except the Emperor) doesn't know that you logged on, unless they have a means to detect hidden and see you in the WHO list. So if you're playing super-spy-on-other-Imperials-Shadowguy, and hiding the INSTANT you log on, and then a cabal inner suddenly announces your presence by telling you to go do something over the cabal channel, that kinda ruins your game plan. This is even more important when you have Council members logged in who expect to be greeted by each and every Imperial either when the council member logs in, or when the citizen logs in. Shadows can "potentially" get away with not doing this, though it's still a risk. I actually used that mechanic several times to sneak in to the throne room in the Palace and start eavesdropping on various Council members. Nothing much came of it in those particular instances, but it could have potentially been very informative. If, however, my presence was suddenly announced by an automated message, loose lips might suddenly tighten. This was actually an area of intense discipline in the Shadow Sect recently, teaching the young recruits to not blab the presence of every other Shadow who might be logged in.

If the automated messages are to stay at all, I might suggest changing them so that the only one giving an automated message to Shadows will be the Imperial Assassin, and directing it over the Sect channel, instead of the channel.

.

I just assumed these were standard messages but triggered by an Imm, so I always tried to reply to them. Council never talked back tho :( ... and well this also now makes sense!

Specially when he was all surrounded by anathemas

When I was coming up, I was standing outside the imperial thieves guild in lands. The mobs there are set as a 'thief' type, not just in their abilities... in the way that they randomly steal a few copper by people that walk by. But you can catch them. I spoke to the mob, titled as 'bloodoathed', stole coins from him, and gave him a little stabby stabby, then went about my day.

Shortly after the thief guildmaster in lands sent me a rather accusatory tell. I told him in no uncertain terms that bloodoaths are to be judged, and though sect law does nothing to protect imperials from theft, it didn't behoove the incompetant oath to be caught in the act, least of all by me. As I continued to stick to my guns, the imm seemed to catch on that what happened wasn't just me being a twit, or being impatient to get into the guild, and in the end gave a little gold I think, followed by a sort of 'If you'll excuse me, I'll have him replaced, knife in hand, and then a little death cry echo. Told me he'd keep HIM in line.

Essentially, the punchline is to respond and if you have a reason that is valid and for your character, never back down, even if punishment comes. See: Sindrir, right? That said, things can be lost in the shuffle with a single line being uttered from a switched mob, hopefully in the future the imms can be of a mind to pester you, or continue to speak to you after the demotion (Are you listening now, Shadow, or shall I give you something more to be humble about?!)

Also, I'd totally have had your back, so that assertion was right. Sad to see one of the gang dropping off, but thieves are not for everyone. Hope to see you soon, and don't be so sour on Shadow Sect.. It's way too fun and the seat is very often empty for SL. I would have liked the opportunity to start punishing people out of sect if it had indeed been repeated again in the future, imm controlled or not, as I'm obviously in to the whole iron-fist my-way political thing. Kudos on a well played shadow, if you have a brother or a sister or something send em my way ;)

I enjoyed all our interactions quite a lot, and it was good to have someone settle in so comfortably to the role I had intended as well. You actually reminded me of another RP situation I had with one of my old thieves, I was thinking 'have we done this dance before?'. Alas, I guess it was not meant to be with Camdon....

Seriously though. Roll another one up right now. (2nd) Best shadow ever..

Damnit.

(edit) P.S. Just read more of your goodbyes, re: the zqoema incident and your notes. I was super happy with myself ooc for that note. "You may address him as Elite, The Hand, or Yes Sir." (etc). Good times.

Do not go back and edit anon posts because it can reveal your actual forum handle when you do. Just reply to your post to remain anon.

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