Thu May 15 21:51:02 2014

At 8 o'clock PM, Day of the Sun, 27th of the Month of the Shadows
on the Theran calendar Aael perished, never to return.

Race:	storm
Class:	shaman
Level:	48
Alignment:	Neutral
Ethos:	Chaotic
Cabal:	OUTLANDER, the Outlanders of Thar-Eris
Age:	219
Hours:	108

I s'pose I should probably comment (first time I've had time to read the forums in a few days). I was kinda cheering for you to regain your alignment or roleplay well enough to end up as a neutral shaman (gasp!)...ask around, I like seeing people redeem themselves. As many others have pointed out, alignment superscedes all other things, race, cabal, ethos, class, etc...it is, for all intents and purposes, the core of the character. Therefore, it is also the harshest punishment when broken. I was kinda rooting for you to earn empowerment back, next time stick it out, there are some amazing "historical" characters that were defined by their rise back to power after something crippled their characters.

Anyway, sorry I harshed your mellow my friend.

So when are you going to be back long enough so we can get a taste of the wrathful god of good? I'm itching to role something under your wing.

Also with Fortress having Marans now... will followers of yours still be marans if they are outside the fortress? How would that work?

Just kidding you're the best!

I had a storm giant shaman that followed jasthrean that chastised several times for working with evil and some other things. I never got unempowered, but I never got full Empowerment either and eventually bailed on the char.

However, a few chars later, after doing warden wrong, I was armed with how to do warden right and ended up being Sunwarden. I Actually had outlander pretty good leaning (10 wardens in the tree anyway I had apps waiting to get in) for a while. Of course I am always about pushing team good, so.....

Nobody wants to ruin anyone's fun in this game. Enforcing RP standards isn't a popular thing to do amongst the staff, especially when there is a mechanical malus involved. It almost always ends in bad blood on deletion threads.

If we relax the RP standards, where do we stop? Because this month it will be goodies and evils grouping, next month it will be goodie/evil PK squads and the reference point will just keep shifting.

There are some players like me who still appreciate a roleplay environment. I don't know if I would personally enjoy a game where the say command read like an AIM conversation and alignment counted for nothing.

Edit: And I am painfully aware of how pressing life can be, and that players have a limited window of time to play. Dealing with these setbacks can be tough from that perspective. But it sounds like you personally made some mistakes, took it on the chin and rolled with the punches. Eventually you hit on the right formula and reaped the rewards.

I got the impression that this character was really well liked and seemed like a shoo-in for the next Sunwarden, but when someone doesn't respond to two alignment warnings it's inevitable that something more serious is coming.

I don't know that a less well regarded character would have gotten as much mercy before real consequences set in.

Good Luck to everyone, i really enjoyed this character until I interacted with Shokai.

Being align changed for killing a few dragons with a few reavers with some minor IC justification was just ridiculous. Especially given the fact not more than a few months ago a warden was modified -250 align for the same thing (a reasonable punishment).
Instead, i lost all communes and inherents, 1000 imm xp. I toughed it out for a week not saying a word, dying many times as i was basically a punching bag on a wolf.

No hard feelings, but it's clearly become a game that isn't for me. I was a pretty intensive player the last few years, but i just feel like that crossed the line for me. Felt like i was Shokai's victim to announce he was back and how super serial he was.

Regardless, i had fun for the most part despite never being a 'successful' pker.

Strienat you are a lot of fun, but i feel like you had some stuff going on lately but ultimately over several characters you were enjoyable. Good luck.

Outlanders, you all were great fun, even the reavers.

Have fun guys, but time for me to move on to Madden or something lol.

the minor IC justification?

More or less that he was in the party first and didn't want to show the reavers they could force him out. Still not great, and i wouldn't have been bothered by imm xp sapping or something like that. It just got taken way too far in my opinion and beyond the established precedents for this kind of thing. Cutting a hand off for speeding more or less lol.

It wasn't just a simple little thing. You were cracked with a loss of alignment and an echo at the start of it. You ignored that and continued to carry on with your adventure. Then you lost imm xp after you went rampaging through Darsylon with a dark-elf to shortcut to the next dragon. You then proceeded on to a third dragon before Shok stepped in and hit you with the stick. The entire purpose of Shokai stepping out and interacting with you at that moment in time was entirely so that you, the player of the character (not the character), could get some immteraction and some rough guidance on what exactly the problem was and how you could rebound from it. The thought process was that if there was an actual imm coming down to tell you how you fubared and could improve that it would be a more meaningful thing for you as a player and would help develop your character further.

If the above is too ranty for you, here is a summary:
You completely ignored your alignment for over an hour of RL time while receiving multiple warnings and slaps on the wrist before the hammer was finally dropped via an interaction that you probably didn't deserve in the first place.

News to me buddy. I only saw the Shokai crap, and also rampaging through Darsylon? I have no idea what you're talking about. Never saw any echoes about align lowering or whatever.

I also really don't want to get into a back and forth over something so silly. So i'll just leave it at what i've said and wish everyone good luck.

The problem with what you said however is that its inaccurate and paints a picture like you are a victim when you really aren't. Hopefully you will come back with something else someday and rock out another really solid char.

Fwiw, I was a big fan of yours pre that incident.

Who lets a little thing like facts or evidence get in the way of a good bitching rant or sob story?

The echoes were sent.

Never mind that grouping with multiple evils to kill stuff for gear might not need a warning for a major alignment shift. This wasn't even some arguable case where you temporarily ended up on the same side for some great necessity or common goal. If you were working with them (likely ungrouped) to defend the Tree, no one would blink. If a horde of extraplanar demons were unleashed, you're probably on the same side.

But here, your dialogue reveals that you wanted to kill dragons to get more stuff, and didn't want to leave your group. That's a very neutral stance, so your alignment was updated to better match what you were playing.

Your cabal choices don't override your alignment, and this was an egregious breach. (Conversely, you weren't kicked out of Outlander, because this wasn't an Outlander problem.) You likely could have regained your abilities with some sincere penance, but you just blamed Shokai and eventually deleted.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

His alignment was updated to reflect what he was doing for a single session. It does not neccesarily reflect the general trend of the character based on all of the comments in this thread.

Personally I wouldn't see that as the intent of alignment change based on the fact that the infrastructure is based on iterative shifts.

This was a case of an admin using the iterative feature multiple times for the same event because of a disconnect with the player.

Given the fact that the offense was being grouped with an evil to kill some if the greatest evil forces I would agree that the infraction warranted some action but disagree with the extent.

I don't think this is the end of the world and I don't think any policies need changed but maybe it would be worth talking about if alignment change should be tied to an episode at a 1 to 1 interval or if an episode should be continually escalated until immediate behavior changes (making a character mechanically unplayable is a great way to stop anyone doing anything but rolling a new character)

I am looking at this in the sane way I would ganking as a villager. Where the focus is on trends and not single events

I disagree.

If this didn't get punished to this extent I would be pissed. He's a damn goodie. Good. That comes up when rolling a character, that is one of the primary foundations of your character. Cabal choice doesn't pop up when rolling a character. It isn't even in the same ballpark. Outlander alignment is already flexible enough, letting the future Sunwarden buzz through good-align mobs while holding hands with team evil is just disgusting.

Even if they are 'helping kill a great evil' in the dragons, they'd better find a way to do it in a good-friendly way. Which, spoiler alert, means not grouping with evil.

The difference in ganking as a villager is that's a cabal infraction. A cabal infraction, IMO, is not even in the same ballpark as an alignment infraction. And I -hate- ganking as a villager. Nothing pisses me off more than two berserkers gangbanging someone, but it's a cabal infraction and should be looked at as a trend.

This was an align infraction. There's less wiggle room, and it sounds like dude got tons of warnings. Tons. No sympathy from me for this.

"The echoes were sent." is not "tons of warnings. Tons."

It is an administrator sending a string of words to a player that is in the middle of doing something. Did the player see them? Did the echoes get sent properly? Did anyone verify that the player acknowledged what was being "clearly" put in front of him as a warning to him?

I am not saying he did the right thing, but if you are going to toe the line of ####ing over the multitude of effort and time put into the creation this dude made/played, then you could at least pull him aside or verify that he saw his warnings. Turn it into an interaction or at least glean an acceptance that it is noticed.

Or you know, keep pushing away the few players you have left. Lord knows that ####ing works.

>Or you know, keep pushing away the few players you have left.
>Lord knows that ####ing works.

Based on this and other statements here and on qhcf, I am reading this as

don't align change, demote, anathema, uninduct, reduce warcry modifier, give less than 1000 role xp, string negative titles, make negative imm comments, make ambiguous imm comments, criticize via echo, critize via post, critize verbally or in any way "ruin" someone's character.

Any of the above will result in that player leaving CF forever.

Am I understanding you correctly?

(I've tried very hard to be both fair in my administration of the game and rational in dealing with complaints, but due to an apparent lack of results, I figured I'd give the "miserable, off-the-deep-end, conspiracy theorist malcontented hater" a try.)

There should be enforcement of alignment RP. I think the iterative approach is the best possible policy to deal with it and as implemented is great.

I think it was a fail in this case because it wasn't iterative and 1-2 hours of behavior led to the change instead of a pattern of behavior over time.

But the real gripe is what alignment change does to a character mechanically.

If you have a system that makes playing the character functionally impossible as anything but a herald then you may as well just deny the characters instead unless it was a player driven request.

You can't honestly believe alignment change is a role play opportunity because you simply can't play after it happens, if you can't play you can't role play.

I am curious how much time in terms of gameplay over days the staff think it takes to regain the mechanical ability to participate in CF after an align change?

Way to completely ignore the main point of my post and focus entirely on the two sentences you didn't like.

I shouldn't point that out, but you HAD to have seen and read my post since you replied to it. The problem is, and the point of the previous reply to TheBluestThumb was that despite the claim by TheBluestThumb that the character in question had "tons" of warnings. None of these "tons" of warnings was verified to have been seen by the character. And apparently he claims he didn't see a one.

If your guys stance is that "hey, he messed up, he should of known better, he was punished accordingly based on historical PRECEDENCE for such things" then fine. Good for you.

But it isn't and wasn't. You guys claimed to have warned him but no one made sure he got the warnings. If you don't want to give warnings, don't, just punish and claim your actions. But don't hide behind some b.s. of he was warned when he obviously didn't get the warning.

So yes, F that, F what TheBluestThumb claimed, that dude in question got "ons of warnings. Tons." Because he didn't. He got some echoes that if the timing was wrong (Dragon lair spam is quite extensive at times) he likely DID NOT SEE.

But hey, you saw and read my post, so you know that I wasn't talking about the punishment, and that I admittedly said the character in question likely did deserve to be punished because he didn't do the right thing. Unless you missed all the rest of the content of my post in the spam... sucks huh?

if the guy even saw the echos. i sure hope he did

i know if they are green then i would miss them.

>But hey, you saw and read my post, so you know that I wasn't
>talking about the punishment, and that I admittedly said the
>character in question likely did deserve to be punished
>because he didn't do the right thing. Unless you missed all
>the rest of the content of my post in the spam... sucks huh?

I read your post and understood what you are trying to get across. I will reiterate:

(I've tried very hard to be both fair in my administration of the game and rational in dealing with complaints, but due to an apparent lack of results, I figured I'd give the "miserable, off-the-deep-end, conspiracy theorist malcontented hater" a try.)

Now that I see that the "miserable, off-the-deep-end, conspiracy theorist malcontented hater" also doesn't work, it's easy for me to see why I don't see eye to eye with a number of our playerbase. I had thought I was missing something.

I will return to a more rational approach:

When I have bumped someone's warcry down, I've gotten complaints.
When I have given someone a negative title, I've gotten complaints.
When I have made imm comments that can be construed by some to be negative, I've gotten complaints.

These are both what I would consider to be minor setbacks in the life of a character, which can easily be rectified. Yet the complaints come from the peanut gallery who are quick to defend the "hours of time and effort" expended and claim that I ruined their character.

Should I witness a behavior that warrants something as serious (and as rare) as an alignment change, in this case a goodie willingly grouping with an evil to gather gear*, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that the result is the same.

I can either do my job as an administrator and police the behavior, or I can say "It's not worth the hassle, so why should I bother?" and let it go.

You tell me: what should I do?

*I am not the imm who did the align change; this is hypothetical

"You tell me: what should I do?"

This is a roleplay/pk mud, correct?

Roleplay.

Roleplaying out punishments would validate that the character in question understood what was going on.

Roleplaying would flourish the imaginary environment you are all trying to create (at least I hope)

Roleplaying would most likely keep a floundering character from deleting and lead to interesting development and maybe even hook new characters

Stop playing the conspiracy card

All of that said, I understand the angst of getting backlash for actions that you feel are appropriate (punishments and the like). But when a character doesn't know what is going on and simply catches the punishment stick... well, what would you expect to happen?

If the character had been roleplaying good they would not have been punished.

It should not require hand holding to explain to a character that roleplaying good does not = grouping with evils to get shines.

Do you not realize that the echos and the imm intervention is roleplay?

If it were a newbie... I might understand and sympathize that they are so new.

But acting like the player had no idea they were doing something wrong in the first place is a little far fetched, IMO. Warning or not.

You say that the imms should role play in an effort to address a players choice to throw rp out the window in favour of better gear.

Doesn't feel like there's consistency here.

And I don't understand why you feel the guy needed to be told what he was doing wrong. It's common knowledge that you don't group with evils to get gear as a good.

Watching Aael for a while. Discussing how to deal with it. They literally gave him the benefit of the doubt on a few occasions.

I know some people like to think that the staff are out to get them, ruin the game and screw up their fun.. It's really not the case. People were routing for Aael to stop what he was doing and do a little RP act and maybe a minor role entry about it.

Ultimately, as I understand it Shokai zapped down to try and give him a memorable immteraction and soften the blow of an align change.

There should be enforceable roleplay standards in a roleplay game, and there needs to be a mechanism to enforce said standards. Plus keep in mind that Aael is an empowerment character, ie:, roleplay absolutely mandatory.

I don't really know what more there is to say. There seems to be an impasse between some players and the staff on this issue, but people have to remember that there are multiple facets to the game when they play. I would be very irritated as a roleplay intensive player if I saw a good-align ganging up with evils through a neutral bridge. Some people just play for PK, which is fine. But the game doesn't begin and end with PK alone.

Is to try and break down the barriers between the staff and playerbase, rather than reinforce them.

Its been said before that you guys volunteer your time, and I wholly get that. Players also volunteer their time.

Having been through a "Redemption" with my character Selfren under Shokai. For some background, I was on a hell trip and I 'gambled' with a certain demon as a paladin because my healer pal did before me... I'll tell you that had he not been paying VERY CLOSE attention right when he sent along my 'punishment' (Getting stripped of Maran/####ty title/Loss of pally sups etc)...he would not have caught the fact that I had typed 'delete' and was trying to get the 2nd one to go through.

What he did, was engage me in a conversation under IMM cloak along the lines of 'Hey buddy, you ####ed up but you aren't ####ed' We had a good 5-10 min chat, I went my week with no skills etc, knowing that I could "Re-earn" what I had lost. It is one of my best 'memories' of playing CF


I don't think the issue is the 'punishment' its the delivery and method. Had someone spent 10-20 minutes actually conversing with this guy in character, and then maybe spent some time RP'ing with him along the lines of redemption...maybe this thread wouldn't be here.

I say this because, a character as you've pointed out is a time investment. A lot of us don't have the "time" to invest that we once did" I'd think someone would be reluctant to pull the delete trigger if you guys spent the time to help him completely understand what was happening, and that it was in fact reversable.

Just my .02

I'm going to chime in here as my last character got the fun stick taken away for something a little less drastic than actually killing a good aligned creature while grouped with an evil. I wont rehash my tale, suffice to say I screwed up and was in a group with an evil. After it happened and reading the responses, I deserved what I got or worse. I'm posting because while this discussions gone a bit a field and is somewhat antagonistic, I'm hopeful that some feedback for these situations can be provided and at least you've heard another opinion.

I deleted about an hour after getting punished, not because I had gotten a punishment(Empowerment lowered to 30 as a hero) but because no one would talk to me and explain what had happened. Post death I was told you received an echo... I was in the middle of raiding the Refuge and I died in that process. I think it was a 6 or 7 character battle. If there was an echo in there, I sure as #### didnt see it. I was then running across the game to gather my things, knowing if I unghosted I'd be killed a second time.

A few minutes later I tried to cast a spell and could not - I then spent the next hour praying asking repeatedly someone, anyone tell me what happened here. No response. An immortal was meanwhile answering questions on newbie channel. Finally I asked Mendos to explain what was going on as he was actually visible, and his response was that he had heard I grouped with an evil but it was above his paygrade to say more than that. What I didnt and dont understand is why if you have a player who is clearly not aware of what has happened, and is respectfully praying and asking, you would refuse to say something to them.

I've also had a similar experience on another character in which an immortal spoke to me as a cabal guardian, but I had cabal channel turned off as I was a newbie and had been trying to talk while getting pummeled and had accidentally typed 'cb enter'.So with no visible reason, and no speech, nothing whatsoever, I was inducted into none. I reported the uninduct into none to the imps, Daevryn I believe. Who followed up with me and explained that the cabal guardian had spoken to me. That response prompted me to check my channel setting and sure enough, cb was off. I was ignorant of the issue that had caused my uninduct but I fully deserved it when it happened. Not whining about punishment, just saying it wasnt possible for me to have received it, through my own error.


Again - both cases I made mistakes and deserved punishment, at the time I did not realize the greviousness of the errors I was making, and all I wanted was some kind of explanation of what was going on. What you determine to be inappopriate roleplay wise is totally subjective, so explaining it just a tiny bit and making sure the player actually SEES AND READS IT, would not hurt you guys a bit and it would improve the players understanding of the expected RP in CF in the future.

So some suggestions:

Can you put pechos into the afk command message buffer? I dont really need to see the Arkham novice NPC in there, but pechos would be nice. As the ones that I've (apparently) received I missed and I didnt know about until I deleted I couldnt say whether they were in afk buffer or not.

Stock ROM players would get smited for stuff like this... Guess what we all are used to seeing damage messages and they generally get our attention pretty damn quick. How bout when you pecho someone for serious RP breeches, smite them as well?

Consider using a channel such as tell rather than a channel that can be toggled off by the player. I know it doesnt provide the same 'feel' as seeing a guardian speak on cb, but if the player doesnt react in any way shape or form to something with massive impact on a character they've put 100+ hours into, there is likely a chance the message did not get through! Whether they agree with the punishment or RP decision, etc. is immaterial to not receiving the notice that you guys think it was wrong.

He grouped with evils as a good, to get gear. Do you think he didn't know that was dodgy?

People breaching rp for gear/pk success annoys me no end.

Note that when my trib got booted for taking a bribe I didn't complain even though the whole point of taking the bribe was that I knew I could do what I promised in return and get back to kill the dude that bribed me. If I didn't take the bribe, he'd have waited for me to log off and I would not have had a chance to kill him.

Ironically it was the talk about being booted that have the dude time to do what he wanted.

And I still didn't complain because I think it's important that people are made to live by their align and cabal goals etc.

So yeah, punishment for grouping with evils as a good? Sounds appropriate. You shouldn't be able to rely on a warning first because that gives license to breach these things until caught.

Besides, as noted there's usually a way back from this stuff.

Now if only we started similar things where people do these things but emote sadness or shame after, as if that excuses it.

In this particular case, after the warnings which apparently were somehow missed, Shokai showed up IC and asked, basically, "What the hell are you doing? ", leading to a conversation.

Not to say I haven't personally dropped alignment shifts on people with a lot less warning, because I have, but that's not what I understand to have happened here.

If that's the case, then my bitch about punishment without validation of acknowledgement from the character really holds no weight.

My bad.

They were likely missed because I have a 3 year old daughter :).

But i really didn't want to spawn this kind of discussion, it was clearly just a matter of me not seeing the warnings, given that you had no indication i hadn't seen them i can't really condemn anything you did as i likely would've done the same. No hard feelings or anything, just a mistake i think, and Shokai sorry i accused you of being a #### when given context i don't see a problem with how things went.

Just unfortunate, but hey #### happens.

Caveat: I know and understand Shokai showed up later, but it seems the player didn't get pointed to the echoes he missed during his interaction (even ROTD is sufficient for this though not it's original intended function, it probably needs to be used more often to bluntly discuss RP infractions as well prior to, or after the IC interactions regarding it)

Imms have a nasty habit of deciding to punish people in the middle of their little PvE adventures sometimes. Like it or not, those PvE adventures are pretty damn important to any player who isn't majority PvP focused, so they are going to bend some RP in order to be able to do it. I know it's downright idiotic to think that way but guess what, people like Gaplemo and Battlecharmed think like that exactly and a number of other people getting more and more casual over the years also think that way while their younger compatriots remain pretty static and competitive relatively.

Here's the deal: PvE adventures only happen with specific party makeups and cannot be planned ahead OOCly. You are either present at the appropriate level, class and longevity for the adventure or your only option is to kill the people who get the loot from it. Many, if not most, of whom are never going to be found separated from any cabal members protecting them from that gear loss these days unless you like checking explore areas randomly that are virtually impossible to navigate solo that these PvE players might be idling in.

Speaking as a PvP player who

1) has been slapped on the wrist with a negative title by Baerinika for bashing down her paladins with Russians as an UNCABALLED neutral because I believed as a player they were over-rewarded and deserved it

2) Done at least one alignment shift

3) Rules and RP surrounding alignment shifts don't generally concern me as a player

4) Cares not a fig one way or the other about the sanctity and power explore areas grant in terms of items and bonuses, if any number of Russians or Marcus decides a player no longer needs an item, chances are that player is not going to keep that item longer than a week short of the player being Twist himself or Daevryn 10 years ago.

I think there's a solid argument that stripping people of supps and cabal powers during a dragon/tiamat/explore area run is a little asinine. This can easily be put off till later if the imm's logon time is the issue, or automated to occur after the player logged off with a note that has what echoes the player would otherwise have gotten.

Treating the MUD like it's an MMO and considering echoes reliable for any reason at all when a player is in the middle of an explore area is really, really, really dumb and lacking in foresight. It probably needs to stop.

I also have a three year old daughter, so I totally get it. Sometimes these things happen and it's too bad.

Yep, it is what it is. I do agree adding those echoes to afk is a good idea, but otherwise just an unfortunate situation.

No worries, I've been called much much worse. Sometimes deservingly :)

If, hypothetically, you're commenting on a character that isn't yours, and don't know what was or wasn't done: You may wish to hold off, instead of just assuming whatever details help push your narrative.

I checked the logs, saw the number of Immortals who weighed in, and what was done and when. If anything, they erred on the side of being cautious for what was a fairly egregious and extended breach of roleplay. Some details left out include loss of experience (with the echoes that come with that), Aael helping his group kill Darsylon guards to clear a path, etc. (Likely via autoassist, but that's a lot of text that should trigger "Oh, I probably shouldn't be doing this as a storm shaman.") That's all before the dialogue, etc.

Or you know, keep pushing away the few players you have left. Lord knows that ####ing works.

Sorry, but you'd post this in a thread about whether areas should use "gray" or "grey". It's hard to take you seriously when it's your answer for everything.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Good job!

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=4&topic_id=120690&mesg_id=120720&page=

Being a "goodie" on the receiving end, I did note that this incident, in itself, wasn't the start of the whole revelation. From my char's point of view Aael overstepped the lines on multiple occasions to outright kill my PC, when it was not in defense of the tree or their ideals.

I think all in all, I may have killed one "good" align mob in all my hours of play.. And even then was by pure accident/stupidity on my part, both me as a player and IC was very disturbed having this happen, which is how any "goodly" natured char should feel. Even over that sort of mistake, I worry about an align change too, be it over killing a good mobile, or attacking a PC. I do my upmost best to avoid fights with other goods, even if they are in an opposing cabal. If I am a tribunal and they break the law or raid, I must act as I need to do something to defend the spire or people. If they run, I will not chase outside the confines of the city, unless their actions go beyond the usual to cause harm to myself or others. (Then I excuse my attacks based on they are forcing me to do so, and acting against the ways of a usual goodie).

I have only ever struck another good in defense, or in a wanted and/or raid situation. Anything beyond that, I will not, or try my hardest to excuse myself from the situation. It is possible and I have proven that time and time again with this and other chars before. I admit, I am not perfect and mistakes happen with anyone, but lines do need to be drawn and followed. Goodies should all have morals, and need to prove themselves better than/above the actions of evil, or even neutral minded beings. I felt the punishment was justified in the end, however I think the warnings could have and should have come sooner and over more time, which they easily could have. Though these are my personal feelings of the matter, take it as you see fit.

Oh man, sorry to see this. I was planning to write an OOC note to the immortals today, I think your punishment was harsh and thought you really toughed it out for a while. In my (players) opinion, you had put in a lot of time as a punching bag which should have been rewarded by getting your funstick back. I think RP-based punishment is reasonable, but there should be more or less explicit ways to not force a delete-delete. I don't know how many hours Aael had after the dragon incident, but it seemed like a lot.

As far as Daryslon went, I calmed every guard I could, though it's possible some died as we ran through. Having never played a goodie, what is a Warden supposed to do when attacked by aggro, good, law enforcement?

Walk around darsylon.
Commune word of recall.
Commune blind and flee.
Don't group with evils that will have no issues about killing good aligns.
Let's assume you missed that last one. In that case, try to talk evils out of killing them?

Man you told Shokai that a Warden has to tolerate darkies. Why would you say that to a Maran imm?

That said, it's unwise to set a precedent of "Oh this guy was only punished this bad? I'll be ok to do the same thing." When/if you come back, please consider that. The invoker also changed his behavior after a warning or two, which was why he was punished as he was. Your situation was different.

I am not sure how no one has said this, but you were a PRIEST of a GOOD immortal. You don't get the same amount of slack as another class, you are supposed to be the shining example of their religion. I could easily see this having being dropped on you way earlier without so many warnings. (You got them, even if you ignored them).

I figured I would gather my thoughts before I replied to this. You were my shoe in for Sunwarden, I thought that you had done tons of good things and I truly felt that if you had stuck it out and regained your alignment/empowerment, you would have continued to be my shoe in as you had stuck through the worst of what could happen.

As to my time, I have been around, though not as often at night, and I had been watching you waiting for something to see that I could push to get you some alignment back, etc. The problem is, other than some dust ups with Azzael or helping a centaur get some gear, I did not see much. You were sticking it out and as I said last night, I was extremely proud of that, being a punching bag when you do not have supplications is not the way you prove through your actions.

I felt that you had a great grasp of what was going on and until the dust up with the dragon hunting incident, I thought that you were going to be the perfect start of the new Sunwarden regiment. The problem was, no matter if they got missed in spam, there were warnings, there was a first alignment drop that was given to you which you continued past and that is why your alignment went down further.

Over all, many people forget that alignment trumps ethos or cabal in any test of anything. If you are good, you need to act good and find a way to continue to do so even if you are a anti-establishment Outlander. Otherwise, you will be hit with the unhappy stick. The one thing I can say about that unhappy stick is if you roleplay it, you can create a much greater, long lasting, and enjoyable role just from having that one thing happen. These characters can make impacts on the entire game.

I wish you luck with your next, I am glad that you tried my religion (which I think you had a good grasp of), and I wish we could have seen where we could push this together. I am, once again, extremely proud of the effort you put in to trying to return to the Light, and I wish that you had stuck it out further.

Well from what I hear this sounds very unfortunate as I saw no echoes etc or I would have heeded them.

From my pov all that happened was the align change and xp loss all at once. Sounds like very likely I missed those echoes causing a misunderstanding. If this is the case then these thoughts are understandable but hopefully you can understand mine having not noticed or seen those echoes or whatever.

Thanks!

I was there when it happened. I watched the two warnings and was the first person to ask Shokai to go stick his spear through you when you didn't respond. He was MUCH more gentle then I would have been. That being said, I did think you were going to be the next Sunwarden up until that point. And Shokai left a lot of room for you to get your align back. Take it as a learning experience and come back with another shot.

I liked what I personally saw from the character, and was looking forward to more interactions, especially trying to help you get back to the good side.

Having had an align change dropped on a past char, its painful. Its more painful to get stuff back. Its awesome when it happens.

Try another char, maybe after a bit of a break. And stop paying attention to your child, it'll only make her crave more of it. (That's how parenting works, right?)

..that a more experienced member of the staff hasn't already said. I liked you, and I heard some good things about you (and that was even with my relatively infrequent logins this last month.)

As far as I am concerned, once an individual has stuck it out post 11 for 100 hours they are a member of the CF community and that automatically earns them my personal respect and they have my ear on things.

I am sorry the character didn't live up to expectations. If you get bored of Madden some time and you get the itch to play again, we'll be here. Good luck with whatever comes next gaming-wise and in real life.