Mon Dec 3 17:50:33 2012

At 2 o'clock PM, Day of the Moon, 7th of the Month of Nature
on the Theran calendar Salmt perished, never to return.

Race:	dwarf
Class:	paladin
Level:	51
Alignment:	Good
Ethos:	Neutral
Cabal:	FORTRESS, the Fortress of Light
Age:	165
Hours:	194

How come every time I have ever seen Rayihn get called out on something, by anyone, she is the ONLY ONE who is not taking part in the conversation?

Can't she defend herself? She seems perfectly capable to me of saying or doing the things that start these conversations, why can't she explain herself?

She just chose to not derail the death thread and posted on the gameplay post I set up so we wouldn't hijack it. Unfortunately not everyone joined us.

Well, I had a REALLY great time every minute I played this character - And then I simply ran out of time.

Work got me bogged down, and then whenever I tried to come back, I just couldn't find enough time to get back into the character (and to make new friends since all mine died off).

This is my first empowered paladin... and my first paladin in forever (I may have had one to 20th rank or so once)... and it showed.

I made plenty of mistakes. I was far from deathful. But I made alot of great friends. I made some memorable enemies. I met a FANTASTIC IMM - Whiysdan, you are simply the best!

Instead of trying to log in once and a while to try and get my mojo back, I figured it's best to delete while I still had good memories of the character...

Anyways, if you remember me and want to say goodbye, I'll respond.

Tanion - People seemed to hate you, but I didn't!
Brindlebum - A super fun character to be around.
Flackerbuz - I'm glad I didn't kill you when we were kids. You turned out to be great.
Ziruanja - A well played Paladin, and a good friend.
Semille - One of my Forty friends - thanks for trying to introduce me to Rayihn... that brought on plenty of RP opportunities (even though I pissed her off).
Rosaline - Gotta love sluts!
Oirwn - Made the inn a fun place!

Whisdayn - I don't know what to say, other than you made playing this character one of the most enjoyable experiences in my years of playing CF. I only hope I gave you some fun times as well.

Rayihn - I know this may sound critical (which I'm not trying to), but I think you took my IC persona a bit too personal and it always felt to me like it bled into a bit of OOC-type hostility. If that was purely how your character would react (and I didn't know her well enough to really know), I apologize. My behavior was 100% my interpretation of dwarven stubbornness, etc.

I'm always looking for feedback, so if I have a chance at another character, I'll use it to improve!

Well, based on your comments, I can tell that you really did take it personally. A shame, really.

I wasn't an IMM whore. After insulting you, I could tell that you were going to hold a grudge forever, but I didn't like the stupid title you placed on me (and which was causing grief for some female characters). I didn't want their experience ruined because of your title... so had to endure interactions with you until you removed it.

I hated every minute being in the bathhouse, but you brought it upon yourself, I'm afraid.

Anyways. I don't hold grudges... I'll be back to CF when I have time, but I'll avoid you as best I can, regardless.

>Well, based on your comments, I can tell that you really did
>take it personally. A shame, really.

Given the amount of vitriol that certain members of the playerbase spew in her direction, I have to honestly ask: are you surprised she took what you said personally?

I mean, you now have a post on Dioxides's advocating "setting the bar higher" in regards to being as insulting as possible. Tongue-in-cheek or not, how would you expect her to take any future negative interaction she has with a character? That she even bothers to continue interacting, handing out rewards, and writing/reviewing new areas for the game is a testament to her patience toward a playerbase increasingly dominated by the loud voices of a malcontended minority.

It's almost comical how those select players complain over the slightest criticism of their character. Salmt had no mechanical punsihments other than a negative title. Salmt did not lose xp, stats, virtues or empowerment. Salmt garnered some negative and somewhat harsh (IMHO) immortal comments, so does that make Salmt a failure? This is not directed at you, more to the crowd who have rallied to the cause, so to speak.

I don't want to hijack your good-bye thread any more than I already have. Good luck with your next.

I disagree with pretty much everything you said in terms of general game atmosphere, how reasonable reactions are, "increasingly dominated", etc.



"It's almost comical how those select players complain over the slightest criticism of their character. Salmt had no mechanical punsihments other than a negative title. Salmt did not lose xp, stats, virtues or empowerment. Salmt garnered some negative and somewhat harsh (IMHO) immortal comments, so does that make Salmt a failure? This is not directed at you, more to the crowd who have rallied to the cause, so to speak."

Especially this.

But we will save it for another thread, pewpew!

GOOD LUCK WITH NEXT SALMT, you vulgar mouthed heathen.

someone is a bit too wrapped up in the persona of a character and takes things overly personal.

There's some crappy players out there to where it makes sense to be defensive in some regards. But not in all regards.

**Edit - and I say that gladly acknowledging crappy players as well as this immortals many contributions to the game.

From everything I witness RayBaer is one the most active imms; she is one the most heavily rewarding imms and she has the most visible followers. So how is it there so much negativity directed towards her?

I mean the positive comments about her "seem" to pale in comparison to the number of negative comments on the boards. Do a small contingent of people feel so much dislike for her that their boisterous negativity drowns everything out? Or? Are people basically using her in game for imm-love and then trash talking her on the boards? A little of both?

Disclaimer: I've never been rewarded (to my knowledge) by her, ever had a follower or interacted more than a few brief times with her.

>From everything I witness RayBaer is one the most active
>imms; she is one the most heavily rewarding imms and she has
>the most visible followers. So how is it there so much
>negativity directed towards her?

Jealousy. Some (but not all) of the "vocal majority" of people who complain about her are in cheat rings. At least one cheat ring with a previous immortal and the other I suspect is players only. These types get upset when they can't "win" because Baer rewards her followers AND they think she is in cohoots with people (which I can neither confirm nor deny) essentially giving the "other" cheat ring more "win."

Something along those lines.

>I mean the positive comments about her "seem" to pale in
>comparison to the number of negative comments on the boards.
>Do a small contingent of people feel so much dislike for her
>that their boisterous negativity drowns everything out? Or?
>Are people basically using her in game for imm-love and then
>trash talking her on the boards? A little of both?

It's a small contingent. They just happen to be fairly active forum posters. I'd guess that the majority of players don't post on the boards (consider the number of forum names you might see that have 0-10 posts ever on Dios for instance). So, it's impossible to gauge their stance.

You also have to take into account other aspects. Some people don't like her BECAUSE she rewards so much. They think it breaks the game. Some people don't like her because they think she has it out for them. Some people don't like her because they think she is a big ol' stinky cheater. I don't know if any of these people are right or not.

Finally, consider that there has always been one immortal that takes the majority of the heat from the playerbase.

>Disclaimer: I've never been rewarded (to my knowledge) by her,
>ever had a follower or interacted more than a few brief times
>with her.

Me either.

When Cyradia left she pulled back the curtain on immland and alleged some things about Baerz that were "seconded" by other former imms and players. Additionally, there is the lingering sense among some veteran players that nepotism (pun not intended) got Baer to level 59, not a depth of understanding of CF. These allegations, true or false, represent 1/2 the story and should be regarded thusly. However, It set a lot of players to "seeking" what Baer does wrong. Something like these comments and resulting title allow those people to "find" what they are looking for.

It's not that these comments, title and similar actions are expressly wrong. It's that they sit near enough to the borderline to be construed in the manner you're predisposed to take them. If you go off in search of the good things Baer does you can find those too.

EDIT to say: Psychologists describe the process of falling in love and breaking up as a process of using association and disassociation. When you fall in love, you associate to all the positives of someone and disassociate from all the negatives, hence "love is blind". In order to get your brain to make the very painful severance of your girlfriend/boyfriend/spouse it must disassociate from all positives and associate to all negatives. In fact, we use this process in almost every decision we make about a person, including a CF imm. We tend to label people as either a good person or bad person. This is why the "love baerz" camp can't understand the "hate baerz" camp and vice versa. Each is fully associated/disassociated to their side.

That's why I try not to jump to TOO many conclusions. Lucky for the cheat rings named (immortal-led and not-immortal-led) that I don't care enough to out them all in one fell swoop.

...a spiteful, vindictive bitch.

Do many of our players do the same thing (generally towards her)? OF COURSE THEY DO.

IMMs should be better than that though. Look, I've defended her more than anyone but you IMMs and the people who constantly get tat'd by her and the people she croons over in PBF's. But this is piss-poor on her part. As I said on Dio's, if the character Salmt had said "Baerinika is a slut" I'd totally be cool with all this.

But you realize all this does is just give MORE ammo for people who hate on Baer. You guys could have just said "It was a misunderstanding, we were not positive if that was an OOC/IC comment and we over-reacted".

Instead, you (a former Dio's VIP!) of all people want to come and say "Hey players being ####s on Dio's...#### you, you don't know ####".

Bleh.

>...a spiteful, vindictive bitch.
>
>Do many of our players do the same thing (generally towards
>her)? OF COURSE THEY DO.
>
>IMMs should be better than that though.

Please clarify: IMMs should be better than what?

>Look, I've defended
>her more than anyone but you IMMs and the people who
>constantly get tat'd by her and the people she croons over in
>PBF's. But this is piss-poor on her part. As I said on
>Dio's, if the character Salmt had said "Baerinika is a slut"
>I'd totally be cool with all this.

But not a reaction. An appropriate IC response could be to mechanically work over the character by removing the ability to speak. Instead, the character got a title. Which would you say is over-reacting?

>But you realize all this does is just give MORE ammo for
>people who hate on Baer. You guys could have just said "It
>was a misunderstanding, we were not positive if that was an
>OOC/IC comment and we over-reacted".

Sure, I could have said that, but just like you, I am speculating about the scenario because I don't know all the facts. It might not be recognizable to many who post on Dioxides because I'm not lacing it with profanity and hyperbole.

>Instead, you (a former Dio's VIP!) of all people want to come
>and say "Hey players being ####s on Dio's...#### you, you
>don't know ####".

I don't see what difference it makes that I was a former Dioxide's VIP.

>
>Bleh.

>Please clarify: IMMs should be better than what?<

Should be better than the players they degrade and demonize every time "complaining" and the "Dio's crowd" are discussed.

From the helpfile on Immorting:
Being an immortal requires the willingness to actively work for the betterment
of Carrion Fields. Those who are not willing to contribute as much as possible
are just wasting their time and the time of other immortals. Because of this,
if you know that you're going to be too busy to fulfil the commitments of a
heroimm, please save everyone the trouble and don't apply.

That's pretty cut and dry. Talking #### on players doesn't seem to be "willingness to actively work for the betterment of CF". It seems like something Kadsuane or Kanye would do ;)

>But not a reaction. An appropriate IC response could be to mechanically work over the character by removing the ability to speak. Instead, the character got a title. Which would you say is over-reacting?<

Wow. This goes back to my "lazy-ass" comment. Because taking away someone's ability to speak for a comment like that IS LAZY.

Why not send the player an echo:
"As your salicious words reach the ears of the Goddess of Vanity, you find your skin losing it's luster, you hair beginning to fall out, and a terrible stench begins to waft from your pores. As you look around at your wretched state, you hear a voice from the Waves 'If I'm a slut then you'll find yourself unlovable'".

Then you could drop their charisma 3 pts or so. Whiysdan could think quest him to find 13 things that could make him "prettier" and "lovable", and everyone is happy.

There really are like 20 or things you could have done that like that that would have been much more fun for both the Immortal and Player in that situation. Instead, you (Rayihn) took the easy way out.

The Dio's VIP comment was more to the fact it makes me sad that you've seemingly adopted the Immortal belief that Dio's is bad for CF (based on your comments regarding the playerbase and posting there).

>>Please clarify: IMMs should be better than what?<
>
>Should be better than the players they degrade and demonize
>every time "complaining" and the "Dio's crowd" are discussed.
>
>From the helpfile on Immorting:
>Being an immortal requires the willingness to actively work
>for the betterment
>of Carrion Fields. Those who are not willing to contribute as
>much as possible
>are just wasting their time and the time of other immortals.
>Because of this,
>if you know that you're going to be too busy to fulfil the
>commitments of a
>heroimm, please save everyone the trouble and don't apply.
>
>That's pretty cut and dry. Talking #### on players doesn't
>seem to be "willingness to actively work for the betterment of
>CF". It seems like something Kadsuane or Kanye would do ;)

Even though we disagree on this, I read that as "laying down and taking it," which I'm fine with doing... for the first hundred or so baseless negative comments. After a while, even posts that attempt to give constructive criticism (as you are doing here) get viewed with whatever the opposite of rose-colored glasses are. We're all human; everyone's got their breaking point. I can't speak for Rayihn, but I see that she chose to vent on Immortal Comments. Again, she did not do anything negative to the character beyond a title. I think that shows remarkable restraint.

>>But not a reaction. An appropriate IC response could be to
>mechanically work over the character by removing the ability
>to speak. Instead, the character got a title. Which would you
>say is over-reacting?<
>
>Wow. This goes back to my "lazy-ass" comment. Because taking
>away someone's ability to speak for a comment like that IS
>LAZY.
>
>Why not send the player an echo:
>"As your salicious words reach the ears of the Goddess of
>Vanity, you find your skin losing it's luster, you hair
>beginning to fall out, and a terrible stench begins to waft
>from your pores. As you look around at your wretched state,
>you hear a voice from the Waves 'If I'm a slut then you'll
>find yourself unlovable'".
>
>Then you could drop their charisma 3 pts or so. Whiysdan
>could think quest him to find 13 things that could make him
>"prettier" and "lovable", and everyone is happy.

Why not do all those awesome echoes and then rip the tongue out? I'm sorry I wasn't more clear; I thought that was implied.

Either way, the end result is mechanically screwing over the character, when all Salmt got was a negative title. I would like to add that the peanut gallery threw their reaction in without even knowing for sure IF the awesome echoes you would have wanted even took place. Whether they did or not is irrelevant - the reaction is what I'm arguing against here.

>
>The Dio's VIP comment was more to the fact it makes me sad
>that you've seemingly adopted the Immortal belief that Dio's
>is bad for CF (based on your comments regarding the playerbase
>and posting there).
>
Actually, as much as I respect many of the players who post constructively on Dioxide's, the aforementioned group of malcontents convinced me that Dio's wasn't the best thing for helping CF grow well before I immed.

...one thing.

>Even though we disagree on this, I read that as "laying down and taking it," which I'm fine with doing... for the first hundred or so baseless negative comments. After a while, even posts that attempt to give constructive criticism (as you are doing here) get viewed with whatever the opposite of rose-colored glasses are. We're all human; everyone's got their breaking point. I can't speak for Rayihn, but I see that she chose to vent on Immortal Comments. Again, she did not do anything negative to the character beyond a title. I think that shows remarkable restraint.<

Two things:

1) She couldn't have just said in the Gathering room or over the IMM channel "Man this dude's a douche-nozzle" and left it at that? If I remember correctly didn't Aarn leave because he did what Baer did and Nepenthe had to tell him to chill the #### out? That's what it looks like to a layman. I'm all for characters not being liked by immortals, that's human. But it almost seemed like Rayihn and Whiysdan were having an argument over PBF comments, so putting that stuff there is something that definitely affected the character.

2) I have a soft spot for this ####. Case in point.

civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> pray So, just wondering, you guys upset about something. I'm not bothering to stay IC if you guys are going to power trip You pray to the heavens for help! Dazcuh nods. civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> Nhost shrugs indifferently. civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> Dazcuh says 'Well, ahm going.' civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> Dazcuh stands up. civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> Nhost says 'me kills stronger dwark den him' civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> Nhost peers around himself intently. civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> Nhost looks at the minotaur mercenary. civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> Nhost sits down and thinks deeply. civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> Nhost gets a whole chicken from a crate. civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> order all grunt The minotaur mercenary grunts something incomprehensible, not amused by his circumstances. Ok. civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> Nhost finishes eating a whole chicken. civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> Nhost says 'me gotta get svioletroots fer findin hidey wuns' civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> An Immortal tells you 'If you want to roleplay an utter jackass, don't be surprised if Thera recognizes your reputation. My advice to you is to keep it in character. I'm currently giving you the benefit of the doubt that it IS your role.' civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> reply Are you serious? My role was already deleted. They aren't here. civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> Your luck has been set to 3. civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> whe People near you: (PK) Jindicho The Bar of the Eternal Star Nhost The Bar of the Eternal Star civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> pray Way to be. You pray to the heavens for help! civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> Nhost mutters something quietly to himself. civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> Nhost leaves north. civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> pray You have noticed my sphere, right? Have you watched this character at all? You pray to the heavens for help! civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> An Immortal tells you 'I have. I'm not taking back your (cosmetic) IC consequences, but if you continue to pray there may be some OOC ones.' civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> pray Because you are attempting to ruin the character? You pray to the heavens for help! civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> pray Mind putting a name to a voice so when I email the IMPs I can know who to complain about? You pray to the heavens for help! civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> Kesl leaves east. civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> You slowly float to the ground. civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> Kesl looks at you. civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> The strength of the giants flees your limbs. civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> An Immortal tells you 'Yes, I do. However, the imps will know exactly who I am, so no worries there.' civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> Kesl leaves north. civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> reply Ah, gotcha. Well, I suppose you'll hear all about it then. You tell an Immortal 'Ah, gotcha. Well, I suppose you'll hear all about it then.' civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> Autosaving. civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 5309tnl (44.70%)> An Immortal tells you 'They're also really familiar with the character, so you won't need a long introduction, either.'

So yeah. Whenever I see something that seems like an OOC vendetta towards a player (even if it isn't the case) I tend to "get my hackles up". For all I know those comments kept every other immortal from ever interacting with Salmt. For all I know that may have affected his role contest results.

You claim it's natural to let OOC frustration bleed into immortal comments, so what's to assume it can bleed into other things? And if it is bleeding into other things, well then isn't that a problem you'd try to fix in order to make sure the players have faith in the IMMs keeping things on the up-and-up?

I don't know man, I understand the all-too-human act of blowing off steam. I just can't help but think the immortal comments section isn't where it's at (nor are quasi-OOC titles, which was my argument re: Reksah below). We can disagree (I think that's still allowed?).

In fact, the only thing that astonishes me is that Salmt didn't get punished harder~

I don't understand people rallying around him, as if it was Baer's fault that vindictive baddies playing pallies want to break RP to call her a slut.

She's the Goddess of Love who "lives" in a bathhouse dude.

Perez Hilton would be having a field day with Rayihn if he existed in CF.

From the perspective of this whole conversation, it's really beyond the point even if Rayihn is the sluttier slut who ever slutted.

Look at it this way: Daevryn is kind of an asshole.

If you call him an asshole, you're probably saying something true.

You're also probably going to get bashed continuously until you manage to slip in an apology between bashes or run out of CON. Daevryn don't care if you're a ghost!

IC, insulting an Immortal, a being with infinitely more power than your character, opens you to limitless IC punishment. It's the closest CF equivalent of choosing to waive all your rights to fairness.

I think that's somewhat the easy way out, I guess.

Zeus wouldn't con-kill someone. He'd just rape their wife disguised as them and then make them raise the child or be murdered by it. That's a way worse punishment. Killing someone is an easy out that shows a lack of creativity. That whole threat of con-kill speaks more towards "As an administrator, if you don't abide by RP restrictions ie Immortals are All-Powerful Gods, you shouldn't be able to play" than any true-ism in most fantasy fiction.

Well, let's say the "I'm going to run you out of CON" option is always on the table and in general it's shorthand for "Bad #### can happen to you, which you have essentially requested."

What noone seems to nderstand is that I didn't mind getting punished for what Rayihn considered a slight.

What I was simply trying to point out was the fact that I thought she was bleeding OOC'ness into her IC persona.

That's all. Punish me. Cut off my tongue. Title me something appropriate. Whatever.

IMM's are powerful. They can do what they want IC. I was totally fine with all of that.

It was the feelings of OOC'ness in the interactions that I was simply trying to point out in a way to improve her RP. That's all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus#Miscellany_on_Zeus

So if we want Daev to be like Zeus a more fitting punishment would be to make the character mute and unable to pray, set his hometown to an unreachable cell in Inferno, put him there and then put an eternal immolation on him that persists through death.

I'm done trying to make this game better.

Time to start joining the Kanye/RobDarken/Rogue/Funnyone/Jerrokrar/Twist grief fest.

.

NT

Good times.

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I don't think people are complaining overmuch about the in-game punishments or interactions. Frankly anyone other than the two protagonists knows next to nothing of those issues.

No, my understanding at least, is that people are responding so vociferously to the pbf comments which seem to indicate a real, ooc vendetta being played out ic, which, if so, is a great cause for concern.

None of us can really know the truth of the matter, but if nothing else perhaps a discussion among the game staff might be in order, whether players ever hear about it or not.

I'm curious, how does the title of "Disrespectful Little Brat" ruin the gaming experience of female characters your character was friends with?


I thought Salmt was an engaging character, but not much of a paladin.

Assuming Baer was keeping it all IC, why not title him "Drunken Fool" or something like that? Dude loved to drink.

The problem, which none of you even mention (perhaps because it's a conversation you are having internally) is THAT SHE BANGS ON THE CHARACTER FOR BEING STUPID BEFORE ANY OF THIS EVEN HAPPENS.

If you don't see that before the character ever said anything about Rayihn, the player behind Rayihn's character disliked the guy already.

I never interacted with Salmt, so I have no idea how good/not good his roleplay was. That's not the point.

First, I disagree about it being an OOC title. I think "Disrespectful Little Brat" is an appropriate title for calling the Goddess of Vanity a slut.

As for her "banging" on the character before this happened, it was something that was annoying more than just her. Players and staff were both being annoyed by it. In fact, Zulgh even posted about it similarly a month later: http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=47017&mesg_id=47017&listing_type=search


Still, even if this title was OOC as you maintain, I don't see how it would affect any character other than Salmt.

OOC actions of any kind affect everyone who has to look beyond them to enjoy an immersive experience.

Ok, I can buy that (without knowing the story behind cuddly goblins.)

I still think the title was IC. If someone asked how he got it, he'd have a story he'd be able to tell that made sense without breaking role.

...it's the language.

Titles that use OOC wording really upset me, because it's the lazy man's way of getting a point across. If each time you guys took a minute or so to "IC-it" I'd be much less upset.

What I (and I think Stunna) are saying, is we don't doubt that the title is valid and fit for IC roleplay, but the wording (Cuddly Goblin) makes me immediately think OOC and therefore ruins the immersion.

(Cuddly Goblin could be "Friend of Gnomes" or whatever I have no idea what the RP behind it was but you get the gist).

That makes a little more sense. I wish you'd just posted this instead of calling the imms that volunteer their time to work on a game "####ing lazy as hell" and a "spiteful, vindictive bitch" because they don't always come up with the most precise title.

The way you wrote your original post it made it seem to me like you thought him even getting a title for it was OOC.

Just saying how a ####ty title is bad for the game (not just for the player who gets titled). That's not the reason I posted on Dio's, but it's the reason I posted on Stunna's response and your commentary on this thread.

And saying someone acted "like a spiteful, vindictive bitch" and someone IS a "spiteful, vindictive bitch" are two different things, mon frere.

IE I could say you are ACTING like a fagtron, or I could be like Kanye and CALL you a fagtron (FWIW I don't think you're a fagtron). They don't mean the same thing. If you don't see that we have a disconnect re: The English language/society.

PS I stand by that lazy as hell comment in this context. It's a pet peeve of mine (then again I'm very creative in real life and things like thinking up cool titles is easy for me, so yeah...it's not a huge deal just a pet peeve).

I only said your acting like a greedy Kyk not you are a greedy kyk big difference...sorry couldn't help myself.

Unless we are including words such as bitch to the lexicon of racist terms.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

Unlike Daevryn the character (:)) if someone says to me "You're acting like an asshole" I immediately look at the way I'm acting and attempt to fix that problem. Sometimes, I just feel like I'm an asshole and I say "Deal with it. I'm an asshole".

To simplify matters more, if you asked me how this whole situation should have been handled once it came to this forum, Rayihn should have posted this:

"After all the vitriol I've taken from the forums, I assumed that when the character Salmt called her a slut, he meant that I the player was a slut. As we have rules against sexual harassment, I was within my rights to harshly penalize the character. Because I didn't wish to do that, I gave the character a negative title and made some comments on his Immortal history. If Salmt did not mean that in the OOC manner, I'd like to apologize and offer my own advice to the players. Do not say things that can be taken in an OOC manner because Gods are watching all the time. Just because you think you are being funny does not mean you can say hurtful things about OOC players, Immortal or mortal. Again, Salmt, any experience you received from Baerinika was strictly from that basis, as I felt you were a poor Squire and poorer Maran. These are the things I thought you could do better. XYZ"

So here's what that post does (which would have taken 5 minutes):
1) Gets out in front of all the people like me talking on the forums. Will this stop us? Hell no. But it sure as #### will slow us down/cut down on the vitriol/volume
2) Apologizes to the player (even though at the same time, it almost indemnifies them). Now the player feels like he "won" in this argument.
3) Talks about proper RP/etiquette, mentions the sexual harassment policy, et cetera.
4) Completely negates any OOC bias claims. That's big for trust within the community.
5) Tells him where he lacked (to better help the player...don't we want the best effort from each person?), gives valid criticism, helpful for other players in the future

You could even boilerplate this guys. You could have a standard text file, you could even title it something like 'Sorry I pissed in your cheerios.template' and then tailor it in 5 minutes for each character this would be needed for.

"Get out of my head" and "slut" are both waaaaaaay more OOC than that title.

To me, this is your skewed bias going against Baer.

"Get out of my head" is an EXPLICIT reference to snooping, which no theran would know about, only players who are OOC familiar with admin tools.

Calling a goddess a slut was pure OOC. No real Theran Paladin would ever have done it, and if they did do it, they would not expect to have it go unpunished. In fact, I think a more in-character response to an OOC attack would have been outright killing him, or a teleport to a deathtrap or something.

The fact that she was nice enough to reduce it to a negative, in-character title still doesn't bother me nearly as much as the blatant OOC venom Salmt was pushing.

Get out of my head is not OOC dude :(

Uthral put on quiet because the RP rationalization of the tell ability was "telepathy" and "he didn't want anyone in his mind".

I've played other characters where when a god talked to me I told them to "get out of my head".

Slut is the main thing here. Was it an IC reference? Or OOC reference? I don't think anyone but the player of Salmt knows that, to be honest.

The real fact of the matter Salmt broke the rules IC OOC it is still against the rules. If I told any IMM they were a ####ing assclown I'm sure I'd get about ten times worse. I don't think Baer overeacted I think it was an underreaction. She was really being nice there. Which when it comes to rule infractions she is more flexible. If you don't remember coconut.

Oh and I normally don't post about imm related things because no matter what it fuels the fire.

...feel free.

Here are some titles that took 20 seconds to think up that would be IMMENSELY MORE IC.

Salmt, Angry Drunken Fool
Salmt, Tactless Drunkard
Salmt, Ignorant of Love

You guys are ####ing lazy as hell sometimes with these titles.

I don't know how that title lead to the outcomes he described. It sounds fitting given everything and I wouldn't even neccesarily think of it as a negative title as someone who was a not involved with the char.

1) I wasn't a spam prayer. And never prayed 13 times or anything like that.

2) The title was nothing. The thinly veiled OOC rant "note to all" was what was not very IMM'ly.

I wish I had a copy of it to post...

The thinly veiled OOC "note to all" that Rayihn posted was what I thought was vindictive and caused the funstick to drop for ALL female characters for a good week or two...

>I hated every minute being in the bathhouse, but you brought
>it upon yourself, I'm afraid.

This is the weirdest thing in this whole thread to me.

The kind of whole bathhouse people hanging out and socializing scene of the last height of the Rayihn religion is not really to my personal taste. It's not the kind of RP that I as a player tend to go for. (And that's fine. Lots of people enjoy aspects of CF that I heartily endorse while seeking out slightly different things for myself.)

You know how I dealt with that? I didn't sit there for hours night after night whether or not anyone actually wanted me there.

I swear I could not be less bewildered if you had posted, "I hate it when I slam my #### in the car door, but I keep doing it on purpose!"

IC, my friends kept asking me to go and ask for forgiveness. I would tell them that it didn't matter... they'd ask again, so I'd go. I'd bring gifts fitting of a dwarf. I'd apologize.

Rayihn would then just vent and say what she wanted to say and not engage in a discussion - which is her prerogative.

But I, as a prideful dwarf, needed her to understand. But of course, she wouldn't. She just wanted to vent in what I felt was an OOC manner.

That's all.

I probably didn't see more than 10% of your shrine time, but that is really, really not the read I got on the situation from what I did see.

It really sucks when something happens and you miss a bit of time and can't get back into a character that you really like. Sorry that happened to you.

I really liked Salmt a lot. While I didn't think you were a shining example of Fortress or Paladin all the time, you were a GREAT Whiysdan follower and I loved every minute of it. I had a ton of fun interacting and watching you. Good luck with whatever is next!

=w=

I'd agree with you on both the Fortress and Paladin comments...

There were times I wouldn't attack evils if I thought it would lower my (or their funstick). I wouldn't jump in on too many battles because goodies nearly always had numbers.

I had more fun interacting with others, drinking, and having fun!