Tue Nov 22 23:06:21 2011

At 8 o'clock PM, Day of Thunder, 3rd of the Month of the Sun
on the Theran calendar Kalarius perished, never to return.

Race:	gnome
Class:	invoker
Level:	51
Alignment:	Neutral
Ethos:	Orderly
Cabal:	TRIBUNAL, the Blood Tribunal
Age:	295
Hours:	332

Really had hopes you would set up your times and come back to play.

Liked what i saw from you, when you actually showed up until you disappeared, fading into nothing.

Always nice to see a competent invoker in work.

Set up your personal things and come back. GLWYN.

I would like to keep this constructive, but I am tremendously disappointed.

The Good:

When you first became Provost, I really enjoyed the various judicial aspects that you brought to the Cabal. I loved the appointment of Laeranna as the Commissioner. I loved the meetings of the Judiciary. I loved your analytical approach to the various complicated cases of law. I had tremendous hopes of serving under you.

You were a competent player and a competent PK'er and you appeared to have fun playing an invoker class.

The Bad:

Though I fully appreciate that this was not entirely your doing, I was adamantly against "no evils in Tribunal" rule, in particular because, from my perspective, you made no effort to try to find the exceptional evils to present to Marcatis.

The Ugly:

A leader MUST show up or resign (in particular in a Cabal like Tribunal). I don't know your circumstances - it is possible I don't see the full picture - but I hope that you were not playing other characters while letting the Spire slowly rot with your lack of involvement. I'm sorry if this feels harsh, but Tribunal is my favorite Cabal, I've seen many different Provost styles and under your "rule" the Cabal reached one of the lowest points I've ever seen.

That aside, and to end on a positive note, when you were showing up and interacting with Magistrates, you character was very fun to be around.

-Nirilas, aka Vythigor, aka Artenno

Ok this statment ticks me off to no end:

"Though I fully appreciate that this was not entirely your doing, I was adamantly against "no evils in Tribunal" rule, in particular because, from my perspective, you made no effort to try to find the exceptional evils to present to Marcatis."

Fact of the matter is, it was Marcatis call to do this, he instigated it and got the people in Game to put it together in what was a pretty cool IC way to do it. Evil's had an option, Empire, which is where they should be going in the first place IMO, and I'm not a serial Tribby, but from an outside perspective and looking at alignments From Help 91:

"Lawful Evil: The use of society and its laws for personal benefit. Structure and organization elevate those who deserve to rule as well as provide a clearly defined hierarchy between master and servant. Laws and societies are supported so long as they fit with personal concerns. Laws are obeyed out of fear of punishment."

This SCREAMS Empire. But a Lawful organization run by an IMM who was a PALADIN, it makes total sense to me that it be harder for evils to get in. And frankly, it's not his job to FIND them. It's their job to present a solid IC reason why a Lawful Evil person would impress a Lawful Good ELF PALADIN to let them into HIS cabal. Easy as that.

Now as for going AWOL as a Leader. Yep, that's bad mojo.

Since Empire won't take some classes. Others are largely gimped.

Also, it -could- be argued that paladins shouldn't be in trib, if you're going to argue that evils shouldn't be. Both have legit reasons to be in, and where an evil might bend the law
(in general), a paladin has to compromise his other beliefs (in general).

Then they have scion, or Outlander to go to. Granted Scion is the elite cabal, but Lawful Evil is Lawful evil. I can't think of a class that can be Lawful Evil that can't get into Empire. Sure they might not get the cool powers that the sects get, but they can and have gotten in.

As for the Paladin, I think they are the ultimate choice for Spire if RP'd correctly. Respect the Laws, don't associate with Evil. Only place you might even come close is that they might have to deal with Goodie Criminals, which is a way easy line for any Pally to take.

Rangers can't get into empire, from what I recall.

The point about a paladin is that they have to protect evil dudes within the city limits, and they can't step into protect good dudes from evil dudes until evil dude has already attacked.

That is, in itself, something of a compromise.

There can arguably be LESS compromise on the part of the spire to take in an evil dude who will enforce the law mercilessly. Ultimately, he's still enforcing the law. It's a different interpretation of the law than a good character might make, but that doesn't make it an invalid interpretation.

I mean, I could even play an evil dude who enforces the law exactly how a good aligned dude would, but for very different reasons. (e.g. because I want to be able to camp safely in town and preach about evil gods without being whacked on a regular basis, or because outlanders did something to piss me off and I want to thwart their war against the tribunal since I figure the Empire can look after itself.).

I really think the point you and so many others are missing is that you CAN make an evil trib. It just takes a little work to get there. If you can't bothered to do the work you don't get the reward.

People need to stop complaining about it in a death thread though. Say your piece about the character and move along. If you folks have an issue with the policy, bring it up on the gameplay forum. Better yet, make an evil trib that is amazing and try and get the policy changed IC.


Cal

I'm not saying that you can't make an evil trib. I'm arguing with Welverin's assertion that evil and trib don't "fit". i.e. He thinks barring evil from trib would be good, whereas I disagree.

You seem to think that maybe I tried to roll an evil trib and failed, or wanted to, and didn't, or know someone that wanted to. None of these are true. Nor am I arguing that people can't get an evil into trib right now. I'm just saying I don't agree with Welverin that evil and trib can't make a good fit.

As far as posting on a death thread, don't you think that trib policy during the reign of a Provost is relevant to the Provost's death thread, whether or not it was actually the Provost who instituted it?

I understand your disagreement with what he is saying. My post wasn't as an assault on you specifically, and if it came across that way I'm sorry.

Also, no I don't think the death thread is the place to discuss cabal politics. The character's politics sure, but a cabal's general politics has a place to be talked about that isn't here. It seems that you feel this as fine a place as any.

We will have to agree to disagree, I suppose.


Provost guy: I didn't know you or anything about you. That said, good luck down the line.

is that throughout the history of the Blood Tribunal, evils have been allowed (except for paladin provosts, etc.), even if it makes life a pain in the ass for the Fortress and for other paladins. Even if ORDERLY evils use the organization and laws for personal benefit, if they stick to the letter of the law (if not the spirit), they're just fine.

It's great that the only imm who volunteered (or was strong-armed) for Tribunal duty (not a total snoozefest, I'm guessing. /sarcasm) is good-aligned, but I have doubts whether it was a black-and-white, "Fact of the matter" situation that the solo cabal imm forced a neutral provost to enact such a policy.

But I could be wrong.

Your analysis is spot on. The situation was not black and white.

No offense, just because that's the way it's always been doesn't mean that it was right or even a good idea in the first place. Fact is, Lawful Evil is the Empire alignment for a reason. Personally, I think the Tribunal needed something to distinguish itself from Empire and this was it.

That allowing paladins to lead Trib in any way dinstinguishes it from Empire?

That trib not warring with fort in any way distinguishes it from Empire?

I've played tribs that prepped people for raids on Empire even as my Provost defended the Empire. Those politics make Trib more interesting for many people.

Don't be ticked off. Allow me to elaborate and explain my statement.

Based on what I know and my few discussions IC with Marcatis, here is what I have gathered. Marcatis saw some really bad evil-aligned players that abused and twisted the role of the Tribunal and really in a way ruined the funstick for others (in some ways OOCly). So he made a decision with some very potentially neat RP elements. Evils are not allowed in the Spire unless they (1) have an endorsement of Tribunal leadership and (2) conduct an interview with Marcatis himself. This is not a "no evils allowed in the Spire" rule. However, prior to (2) above taking place, (1) above had to occur. With Kalarius not taking any interest or making any effort to "groom" evil applicants and then going completely AWOL and showing no leadership, the door to evils ultimately simply closed.

From Morin's perspective and from IC/RP perspective, this must have been a very fun interaction and had I been in Morin's shoes, I would have jumped on it.

On your lawful evil comment though yes it absolutely screams Empire, they have been numerous evil Magistrates that were loyal to the Spire and butted heads with the Empire.

I would agree with the whole Kalarius going AWOL thing, but not for nothign there was an evil in the Spire during this time. It was done. I would take the way that this went down in that it wasn't the job of the Provost to go out and actively recruit Evils. In fact it was his job to weed them out. This made it so that the ones who really wanted to get in, did so. Those who just wanted an easy way to abuse the Spire's powers and such didnt. It played out just fine IMHO

Allowing evil would be natural, because it's in concept a morality neutral organization. Law is a no-nonsense, like it or not, we do what we have to, thing. So, to balance all this out, you need neutrals as core, but also goodies and evils. It's not a goodie-two-shoes club, nor a band of evil oppressors.

But! Empire DOES exist, and that makes this entirely different, because, Evil tribs are assumed allies of the Empire. I don't think that's a good thing in a general gameplay sense, but totally wrong viewed against the main concept of the Empire: Either you're with us, or against us. Specifically, either you took the oath,or you're going to. Tribs though, have sworn allegiance to a different group, mocking the Imperial oath. So, they should be natural enemies!

But, sadly, Imperials rarely are played as zealously as I believe they should be (inter sect relations are way too buddy-buddy as well, imo).

So I loved this provost. :)

Having played an evil Provost, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using the law to your advantage with personal gains as long as you are helping law and order in the process. Evils who do illegal things should not be Tribunals. Evils who encourage law, order, and justice and find a means to better themselves in the process are doing the cabal a good turn.

You must not be an American Citizen if you can't see that evil and law can go hand in hand for mutual benefit.

NT