Tue Oct 11 14:14:59 2011

At 6 o'clock AM, Day of Thunder, 31st of the Month of the Winter Wolf
on the Theran calendar Azrael perished, never to return.

Race:	felar
Class:	warrior
Level:	45
Alignment:	Evil
Ethos:	Orderly
Cabal:	None, None
Age:	25
Hours:	63

If I did something wrong to any of you, I suppose I should learn from this and call it a sorry note. I really just wanted to enjoy the mechanics of CF and play a character. Not one that was special, but just a character. I didn't write a roll and I didn't RP role.

I've played many character's over the years, and I love CF, but with this it's time for me to walk away.

Shanta, Messervy, Greachem, Damgril, Charlee, Cotzibue, and hundreds of others is out. See you after Puerto Rico or maybe even longer, after Boston.

Bummer things turned the way they did.

I wish we'd had a few more solid fights - I couldn't wait for you to hero with the rest of the current Imperial lowbies.

I'd hoped by sending you a few tells about redemption you might be convinced to stick around - but I can understand why that wasn't on the radar at the time.

I made a mistake. I apologize. Praying and playing it cool would have probably been the better option. I probably didn't help you feel any better, but what exactly am I suppose to do? From the information I had in front of me it looked like you started wailing on shifter in Hamsah. I demoted, you popped off over cabal. I have a char to play too, and he's probably not happy about being told to shove it. Sorry it didn't work out for us this time.

What information did you have in front of you? Some buggy notification?

Nt

I don't know how much effort is actaully involved in talking to someone through a monster, but just getting an idea of what's happening, and why, before it actually happens would really help keep people from throwing a fit. In this case, if the Blademaster had started threatening him, for example, then he could have explained himself, or tried to make a bribe or threat or really anything. The situation could become something fun between you two, and whoever else got involved. But when there's just sudden, anonymous punishment, it can seem really mean and unfair to a player. And there's also no clear way to appeal or try to explain yourself without praying or writing a note to all the immortals at once. But then angry prayers will often just get someone punished more harshly. It's kind of a trap. I'm sure this kind of outcome isn't what anyone wants from a sitation like this, right? I really think even the most basic interaction before a punishment could keep it from ending up like this most of the time.

It's too much time invested for something that almost never happens that needs to be spent in other ways.

Please elaborate?

I feel like a conversation like this would be a pretty short one in most cases - and it doesn't have to happen immediately.

How much time is too much to make a game-changing decision for a 63 hour character? Or any character for that matter? If it almost never happens - then is it really -that- much time?

I guess my thought is - hypothetically I pour a hundred hours into my character - even if I deserve it, please take more than a minute to consider my punishment and make sure it's in line. It's at the very least considerate.

What almost never happens is: the logs are wrong and the character can tell you what really happened.

Complicating things, a much, much more common scenario is: the logs tell you what really happened and a player will try to lie about it.

More common than that, really is: the logs tell yo uwhat really happened and a character, given a chance to defend themselves IC, will lie about it.

Obviously what happened here (if what Enlilth had reason to think had happened actually had happened) isn't cheating, but rules enforcement is a pretty good parallel. I used to have these long conversations with people I caught cheating and would try to lay out the proof of what happened. Probably 90% of them deny it and spin some fanciful tale. It's a total coincidence that a character logged on from their exact IP, dropped a ton of gear tailored perfectly to the second character, logged off, and a minute later they logged on, ran straight to the same room and did a get all. They don't even know who that other guy is.

And it's a huge investment in time because what you are not factoring in is: the imm in question has a ton of other crap to do, mostly crap you want them to not neglect, like empowering your half-drow shield paladin.

This approach would pretty much result in either a total end to enforcement of cabal rules (which no one actually wants when they're on the other side of it) or the hardcoding of all such remaining rules.

a

n/t

Once you realized it was a bug, rather than punishing for something that was in no way his fault, remove his anathema status, reinduct him and promote him back to his original position, throw him a bit of imm exp to smooth things over, apologize, and pretend nothing ever happened.

He did wrong when he exploded at you, but you did wrong when you demoted him in the first place. And its a much ####tier feeling when imms do wrong to you than when players do wrong to you, for a large variety of reasons. As patron of his cabal, your opinion of his character is very important to him, and letting some OOC bug screw it up would really frustrate and enrage me too in his place.

Especially in this circumstance, where he was playing solo imperial warrior against a truly ####ty range, and trucking along despite a lot of risk and frustration in hopes of being noticed. Thats just a nasty way to reward the dedication he put in, yeah?

It's one thing if he was actually defying imperial law, but another thing entirely if he did nothing of the sort and was still punished as if he was.

And i don't think Enlilth realised that it was a mistake until he have not yet read dio's at that time (since there were no logs yet).

Pretty sure he would do something like this if he would figure out that it were a bug.

It wasn't the dios log. It was actually the character telling me it was charge set. That's what started our internal conversation and having someone look at the code. I still haven't seen the dios log.

What you're failing to understand is that I didn't know it was a bug until after he deleted. So again, I was going with the information I had in front of me. The fact that he was playing a solo imperial warrior against a truly ####ty range is the reason I only pulled the demotion. Had he handled it different through a reasonable prayer or note I would have realized the bug, re-promoted, and probably dropped some imm xp for my mess up. At the end of the day that's not how it went down. It's an unfortunate sequence of events, and everyone loses.

Your last statement sums it up. If it looks to me like he was actually defying Imperial law (which it did) then I acted in accordance.

and the others lose 15 minutes. Saying everyone loses really minimizes the fact that this guy got pooped on by bad code, then by his cabal imm choosing to not watch the char go up against horrible odds but in turn drop the hammer at the first sign of being out of line, then by his cabal imm choosing a bad time to 'play his role'.

At some point you need to look through the eyes of the individual player. I know you all are more than capable because there are a lot of good people on the immstaff.

Want to know the main reason I like and respect Twist? 7 or 8 years ago one of my chars had a corrupted pfile and the restore was 25 hours and 20 ranks less. Twist took the time to bump me up, made sure my hp/trains/stats were in line, and even bumped up some of the major skill %s. Talk about one happy customer.

Yup. I can't win. Whatever. I understand frustration, but for that we have a rather handy command that more of you should use when you're pissed. It's easy, fun, and better for you than you think. Just quaff you a return and try typing this...

"Q"
"U"
"I"
"T"

Now that you've typed those 4 letters hit enter and deal with the situation when you're not pissed.

Thanks.

PS Someone put this in the wiki, less of you will end up butthurt in the long run.

could take some responsibility other than just paying lip-service to it.

I mean, I guess I understand why you'd be defensive. The only person that would be 'butthurt' about this is the person who was mostly f'ed over due to wrong circumstances completely out of his control.

All I'm trying to do is make known that you/you guys have more options than an apology that doesn't actually do anything. The most meaningful customer service comes when problems like this arise.

Or you can just be defensive and slightly combative.

Twist has those kinds of options. Most imms don't.

Edit: And I don't think any of the options I even have are appropriate to this situation.

He already apologized, said he was sorry, said he would have handled the situation differently. What else do you want him to do?

start him at 35 or so, give him a leg up from those hours down the drain.

I don't think that's an appropriate response, and it's certainly something Enlilth can't do.

it isn't an appropriate response but a token of goodwill. Every now and then you guys go above and beyond and that's why the immstaff as a whole resonates so well with the playerbase.

Enlilth doesn't have to do it. You guys could still make the offer to the player. Or at least some offer.

Call it customer relationship management, e.g., marketing. Easier to retain customers these days than it is to acquire new ones. Plus, retained customers 'spend' more.

Yes its was a mistake. Mistakes happen. Its a free game so I don't really buy your talk about happy customers.

How often do you think the Imms get a "level up" when an char does something wrong to them?

To me the Imm part seems like a rough job. And checking most forum post I would say most people flame about issues. I do hope they tell them self that most people that play love the game and just can't deal with the crap on the boards and that is why they do not post as much as the other side.

This is pretty much the only way I can still interact with people and enjoy it. I just tell myself the people praying at me or in my shrine or any of that are NOT the people who hate me/other imms and convince myself that anything I do or any perk I give out is given to those players who are not the ones who frequently say thoughtless, mean, or just inappropriate things. It just really burns you out.

A few months ago I had a follower whom I found out (he was pretty obvious who it was) was someone who'd said a lot of really nasty things about me (I think infamously calling me a knobgobbler and such/worse) and really disliked me in the past. I really tried to still treat that character fairly and with respect but I have to admit that the light of excitement about the follower went dimmer. It's times like that when you wish there wasn't a dio's or even these main forums that have so much free internet style (aka E-peen raging) speech. Like they say, ignorance really can be bliss.

But if you can avoid checking the IP of the player, which is like a self-induced ignorance - You can likely make the enjoyment for both you and the player a lot more, well, fun :-D.


But if it's someone who bleeds through and makes 50 shell-noobie accounts to spam the newbie board, then it obviously can't be helped.


Otherwise, I like to think of each character kinda like a blank slate - so yeah, I'd agree that the 'ignorance' (but more purposefully avoiding knowing/treating the character like the player) is something that really can make the RP and experience more pleasurable overall.






None of this has to do with the original thread - thumbs up tangents!

And please bear in mind I'm not really addressing you in particular with this, as much as I am addressing your point about past/present OOC attitudes coloring your attitude about a character. I've been known, maybe a time or two, to hold a grudge well beyond the normal grudge shelf life. When I do this, no matter how justified I may (or may not) be, eventually someone from the staff tells me "Stop holding on to the past, it's done and over, let it go" etc etc etc. It's in no way the same as saying "You have no reason to be upset" and more saying "Relax. Unclench, and just enjoy the game".

CF is supposed to be fun for everyone, including you. You've had people who have in the past (or present) said negative things about you. But to quote the good advice I was given "Relax. Unclench and just enjoy the game".

Consider someone who may have thought ill of you trying to follow you as a positive thing, because if they are willing to interact THAT closely with you, clearly they are trying to give you a chance. I speak from personal experience that following an Imm who you really don't like (and no I'm not going to mention any names, said immortal is probably still part of the game and I don't see any need to turn what I am trying to make a positive post into a big flame) is really a frustrating and eventually lackluster experience. I don't think anyone would deliberately make a character for an imm who they already knew they just couldn't stand. Nothing in that sounds in the least enjoyable from a player perspective either.

nt

...at my own situation, I wonder how different it would have been if I had just kept my cool and not lost my temper.

On one hand, I had every reason to lose my temper. But so does nearly every person in the world. I should have been better than that.

Sorry this happened to you Poppa E :( You're one of the best and while I love me some DeathKitty, I'm sure they realize you're not as bad as your worst day and they'll be back.

I came back, after all :)

Azrale said over CB "shove it". If i would be Enlilth, i'd not only anathema him (no matter of what happened), but i'd also skinned him for that.

Player knew there were a bug with charge set. He should pray about it, ask to transfer him into death realm and discuss it there. He should have explained what happened, instead of whining.

And don't say that Enlilth didn't spend time with Azrael. They have talked for a while, and if Azrael wouldn't insult his own imm and explain what happened - he would be restored. But by saying 'shove it' he totally destroyed his own character.

>Want to know the main reason I like and respect Twist? 7 or 8
>years ago one of my chars had a corrupted pfile and the
>restore was 25 hours and 20 ranks less. Twist took the time
>to bump me up, made sure my hp/trains/stats were in line, and
>even bumped up some of the major skill %s. Talk about one
>happy customer.

It was probably longer ago than this since I think I quit for quite a while in 2000ish, but whatever. I say this because I might be remembering wrong since it was so long ago.

The thing about situations like this is IIRC, you prayed something about how you had a character and you were really into him and could someone help you out?? This wasn't an angry "I HAD 25 MORE HOURS INTO THIS CHARACTER!" type of player, this was a calm person who was genuinely not full of expectations, just wondering what we could do for him.

So to bring it back to this example, if the player in question had prayed in a calm fashion asking what he had been demoted for, no he wouldn't have been promoted instantly, but after some conversation he would have been seen to. That's not how it went down. At this point, your comparison to your own situation changes drastically. All those years ago if you had prayed thinking you were screwed and told us to shove it, I sure as hell wouldn't have bumped you back up. :P

Was you as Balgrimnr, fixing me up in forest of nowhere.

You're right, I was quite calm, just asking if someone was willing to throw me a bone after the char was fubar'd from a bug with invoke that I discovered.

I've learned that being nice and calm goes a long way in life. :)

And 11 years later I'm still grateful to you and Zulgh for those 15 minutes...

(and grateful to all past/present/future imms, as well, great game guys).

>Once you realized it was a bug, rather than punishing for
>something that was in no way his fault, remove his anathema
>status, reinduct him and promote him back to his original
>position, throw him a bit of imm exp to smooth things over,
>apologize, and pretend nothing ever happened.

By this time he'd already deleted.

>He did wrong when he exploded at you, but you did wrong when
>you demoted him in the first place. And its a much ####tier
>feeling when imms do wrong to you than when players do wrong
>to you, for a large variety of reasons. As patron of his
>cabal, your opinion of his character is very important to him,
>and letting some OOC bug screw it up would really frustrate
>and enrage me too in his place.

If you want to blame someone, blame me. I wrote the code that Enlilth was using to make the accusation. It's not up to Enlilth to review my code and make sure it's 100% accurate before utilizing it to hand out punishment. 99% of the time, these things are accurate. Congratulations, we've found the 1% where they weren't.

Sorry, too much occupy wall street news not to abuse that line :)

I want to go on the record in saying, I was way more in the wrong than you were. The reason I said "Yea, shove it."..... It was one of the skills I lost, and it was just one of those react without blinking things. Yea, I was upset. I had been getting my ass handed to me, and I was so frustrated with Azrael that I didn't even think twice about it. To me, I didn't even realize it was for a bug, I thought it was for failing after trying to retrieve against those odds. Let me also add, your apology just adds to the fact that I am one of Enlilth's biggest fans.

The Big Z. You couldn't have hit it more on the head. It was a trash Character. I don't typically delete, I just walk away. I was looking for a reason, and I found it. I appreciate the fact you don't walk away from us CFers. We need you, even when we are bitching like an unreasonable, immature, spoiled little bitch. Thanks for the years you have dedicated. Just saying, I hope you have health insurance, cause we need ya Z.

Side note....

Was Azreal the invoker from the past that once ran with Futulefu (something like that) my old Provost from back in the day? If it was man I never even thought of it when I rolled the character. If your out there, you taught me about Organia, before I thought I knew it all. You gave me the elven blade and kept the harp in my hands... Rock on dude.

Side side note....

Yea, I knew the character was lucky to make it out of newb status with that name. That's the reason his description didn't have Azrael's name in it. Ya know, so I didn't have to re-write it when it happened.

Side side side note....

I'm only gonna be in Puerto Rico a week, it's not like I'm ever leaving you baby. CF your my bottom bitch. I quit drinking three days ago after a $280 tab at Hooter's, but last night at the bar I ordered a round of shots for my table after reading E's apology. They didn't even know what they were drinking for, but I did. See you guys in the fields of blood.

One first finds out these things in the Inn.

Someone attacks you, chargeset or blade barrier hits the foe, but the guards say that YOU are the aggressor. Not the fact.

I assume this is the same problem for being in a town with chargeset or blade barrier. Upstairs it's saying you're the one attacking.

It felled like I killed you a lot, but most likely that's because our hours match. (As it has with our previous chars too.)

That last interaction started out good really, but felt a bit "off" near the end. Hope me hunting you didn't mess too much with you.

You had some bad luck too when we fought, and you almost caught me totally unprepared a few times. You once ran past me when I had 100hps left, seemingly unwilling to get into a fight. I was laging heavily at that time so I #### my pants with it all unfroze and I saw your name pop by me.

Anyway, you produce awesome chars. Keep that up!

nt

Checked for some kind of madcap role about working for a wizard and hating svirfs. Was disappoint.

Also lots of other stuff:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azriel_%28disambiguation%29

~

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azrael

How did you manage to become anathema?

It looks like there is a bug with charge set that triggered him setting off an alarm that notifies when people are breaking Imperial Law when a vulture was attacking him and he got demoted before any fact checking was done.

Then he lost his ####. But I guess I could see that given the situation presented.

>It looks like there is a bug with charge set

Yup, I just fixed it.

>Then he lost his ####.

Yup.

>But I guess I could see that given the
>situation presented.

I disagree. If I started losing my #### as easily as he did there would be no CF anymore.

I'm just kidding. Please don't lose your #### ever, we <3 you.

>I'm just kidding.

And it could have easily been investigated & resolved...instead he started yelling and screaming and deleted. If you're looking for the straw to break your back you'll usually find it.

>Please don't lose your #### ever, we <3 you.

Here's hoping!

For all his hard work and not losing his #### with us players.

It's fall, maybe some brewers octoberfest.
How many premiums need to be bought for a little *bonus* to get kicked back to Zulgh so he can get himself a case?

After all, it's nearly winter, and I'm hoping to see the return of Zanta Zulgh 2011!