Summary of changes
- Thief points are now visible, and can be spent using the STUDY command at your guildmaster
- You get 2 thief points per level from 1 to 41, at 42 you get 18 points giving you a total of 100
- Many of the paths have been shortened, and skills pulled from the paths into a general skill pool
--- Skills in the general pool have a level & thief point requirement
--- Skills in the other paths have a prerequisite skill, level & thief points requirement
- Thieves cant added as a skill for all thieves
- Scrolls has been added to the mystic path
- Thief guildmasters get a small bonus (City Ties, Shopkeeper Favors, Guild Protection)
- New channel added which allows thieves to speak with members of their guild (GC)
- 18 new skills added and sprinkled into the various paths

Help files to read
THIEF PATHS
STUDY
'GENERAL THIEF SKILLS'
'BINDER PATH'
'PICKPOCKET PATH'
'POISONER PATH'
'TRAPPER PATH'
'THUG PATH'
'MYSTIC PATH'
'LOCKSMITH PATH'
'GUILD CHANNEL'

Does this add a temporary poison prog to the weapon being envenomed, or just change the attack type to "poisonous bite"?

Level(0) ENVENOM
Syntax: envenom <weapon>

Poisoners just starting out learn the ability to envenom a blade for a while
causing it to strike with a poisoned bite. You are only able to envenom edged
weapons.

See also: THIEVES 'POISONER PATH'

so that it will only say you are able to study the skill if you have the prerequisite. Currently you might see:

Pickpocket Skills:
* Level 12: plant (6 points) None
* Level 15: discerning gaze (4 points) plant
* Level 19: eye of avarice (4 points) discerning gaze
* Level 21: deft touch (6 points) eye of avarice
* Level 23: cutpurse (2 points) deft touch
* Level 25: appraise (2 points) cutpurse
* Level 25: combat steal (2 points) appraise
* Level 26: warning skill (4 points) combat steal
* Level 29: container stealing (2 points) warning skill
Level 33: acrobatics (12 points) container stealing
Level 36: counterfeit (2 points) acrobatics
Level 38: fence (2 points) counterfeit

* You are able to study this now
You currently have 6 thief points to spend.

But with only 6 thief points, by the time I study just plant, I'm no longer able to study the rest. Basically, instead of just showing whether or not you meet the level requirement, can we make it to show whether or not you meet ALL the requirements?

Additionally, is there something that can be done to show how many thief points a person has, aside from going all the way to a guild to do it? Perhaps including it in SCORE like specializations/legacies, or in PRACTICE below the practice sessions remaining?

>so that it will only say you are able to study the skill if
>you have the prerequisite. Currently you might see:
>
>But with only 6 thief points, by the time I study just plant,
>I'm no longer able to study the rest. Basically, instead of
>just showing whether or not you meet the level requirement,
>can we make it to show whether or not you meet ALL the
>requirements?

FNCR

though there is one for GRENADE. Just not sure if GRANDE MISSILE is exactly the same as the old GRENADE, or if the old skill got tweaked a little bit.

.

Wouldn't it make more sense of Lore of the Ages and Arcane Vision were switched? It seems to me that being able to detect magic would be a pre-requisite to being able to dodge magical weaponry (I base this off the understanding that to "dodge magical weaponry" means dodging the spell progs from certain weapons. If my understanding of that is inaccurate, then feel free to discard this suggestion.)

n/t

I was just checking the helpfiles. It appears that gentlewalk was removed from all paths. That used to be one of the nicer trapper skills. Is it gone or was it an oversight?

It's studyable by any thief.

gr

Just looks like it is an oversight in the helpfiles.

Now that scroll use has been moved to the "mystic path", will thieves finally use scrolls decently?

I played a bard and a thief back-to-back and the failure rate for thieves was INCREDIBLY higher, making it nearly completely useless to even attempt to use a scroll unless you have 20 of them. But I was wondering... Now that it is more of a specialization skill, will they finally get a little added boost?

>Now that scroll use has been moved to the "mystic path", will
>thieves finally use scrolls decently?

Depends on how far down the arcane path they go.

>I played a bard and a thief back-to-back and the failure rate
>for thieves was INCREDIBLY higher, making it nearly completely
>useless to even attempt to use a scroll unless you have 20 of
>them. But I was wondering... Now that it is more of a
>specialization skill, will they finally get a little added
>boost?

I would disagree with "incredibly", but yes they don't do it as well as bards.

I have a thief that was made before the changes and got Thieves Cant. When I try to roll up a new thief, he doesn't have the skill. Seems other thieves rolled up post changes don't.

n/t

Does this mean that now all locks/doors/chests will be pickable/unlockable, even ones originally intended to not be pickable?

n/t

<100%hp/100%hp 100%m/100%m 62%mv/62%mv 7 PM 5098tnl (2.90%) civilized> envenom dagger
Huh?

Did you actually practice it after you studied it?

This stuff looks friggin' awesome. One skill is missing a helpfile, though: cutpurse.

Happened to notice, the new stench cloud skill is 3rd on the trapper path, but is higher in level than the three skills which follow it. I'm guess that might be mostly due to shifting things all around, but it seems rather pointless for the later skills to be lower level.

n/t

Now that things like Isolate and Separate are in the general group, what exactly is the advantage of one over the other? Do you need the grapple skill to grapple with separate?

What is the advantage of shadow disappear over 'disengage;hide'?

I have no idea what climb is meant to do, from the helpfile or the general description. Something to make fleeing easier in rough terrain maybe?

Thanks, just a lot of grey areas now that it's easier to mix paths. This is a really awesome change otherwise, though from the looks of things some skills will still need point adjustment. Though I like how cheap shot is no longer a thug only thing - thugs themselves have become a true study of being a bastard coated bastard instead of a necessity to get more lag on your trip. Ritur would have loved this change so much he might have cried. Or more likely, made someone cry for him. With his fist.

I LOVE YOU ZULGH, MARRY ME!

Yhorian

>Now that things like Isolate and Separate are in the general
>group, what exactly is the advantage of one over the other?

Controlling the direction?

>Do you need the grapple skill to grapple with separate?

Yes

>What is the advantage of shadow disappear over
>'disengage;hide'?

I'd guess lag & whether or not you are fighting, but I'm not positive.

>I have no idea what climb is meant to do, from the helpfile or
>the general description. Something to make fleeing easier in
>rough terrain maybe?

More like climbing up the mountain to get to the Talshidar Caves.

>Thanks, just a lot of grey areas now that it's easier to mix
>paths. This is a really awesome change otherwise, though from
>the looks of things some skills will still need point
>adjustment. Though I like how cheap shot is no longer a thug
>only thing - thugs themselves have become a true study of
>being a bastard coated bastard instead of a necessity to get
>more lag on your trip. Ritur would have loved this change so
>much he might have cried. Or more likely, made someone cry for
>him. With his fist.

Yes, I know there will be point tweaking, but I've tried to give it my best estimate to start with.

>I LOVE YOU ZULGH, MARRY ME!

Sorry man, already taken.

Maybe adjust the cost of grapple and separate, to reflect the fact that separate without grapple is pretty #### :P

Isolate is cheaper but tops it by a mile unless you've made the previous investment in grapple. Which already comes with a pretty hefty risk factor, considering you'll be attacking a group unarmed if you're going for the seperate+grapple move.

Then making separate cheap.

COVERT
Syntax: Automatic skill

Some thieves have learned to open and close both doors and containers silently
and covertly.

See also: THIEVES 'GENERAL THIEF SKILLS'

<100%hp 100%m 100%mv 1400tnl (53.33%)> IMPROVED HIDE
Syntax: Automatic Skill

This additional training in the art of hiding allows thieves to do more while
remaining in the shadows. For example, thieves with this level of skill have
been known to communicate with others and to open and close doors without
coming out of hiding.



Do these two still overlap? Is there any point getting covert if you are going to get improved hide anyway?

Also, is blackjack in any way superior to garotte or would a binder thief have no reason to get it anymore?

>Do these two still overlap? Is there any point getting covert
>if you are going to get improved hide anyway?

One makes you not come out of hiding, the other makes it so there are no echoes when you open/close something.

>Also, is blackjack in any way superior to garotte or would a
>binder thief have no reason to get it anymore?

Blackjack comes earlier than garrotte, that's about the only reason I see for a binder to get it.

imho

Wow. This is great. As a current thief this is really a blow away from a few days ago. One question. As I was already a thief during this change I now find myself with negative thief points. Is there any way you'd consider wiping those negatives out so that I can actually choose a skill. The way it is now I might get one but probably not. Thanks and again this is great. Oh yeah last I checked cutpurse didn't have a helpfile. :)

>Wow. This is great. As a current thief this is really a blow
>away from a few days ago. One question. As I was already a
>thief during this change I now find myself with negative thief
>points. Is there any way you'd consider wiping those negatives
>out so that I can actually choose a skill. The way it is now I
>might get one but probably not. Thanks and again this is
>great. Oh yeah last I checked cutpurse didn't have a helpfile.
>:)

Nope, we won't be wiping out any negatives. As it is, you currently have more skills than you should be able to get at your current level (part of that may be due to stuff in paths you didn't want, but there is no good way of changing that).

Yeah, I'll write up a cutpurse helpfile later this morning.

I actually choked on my breakfast as I read this. Thanks for your f-ing awesomeness.

I was already excited to play the thief I'm working on now, and I'm more excited reading this.

As far as existing thieves, were they reset to zero skills or left as is? Were there 100 thief points before this revamp or did they get added/subtracted to?

There were more than 100 points previously, but most skills costed more, and there wasn't the "general" pool.

For poisoners: could you make APPLY a command instead of a skill? I mean when using their craft they have so many ways to fail at some stage. First they can fail with the CONCOCT skill or the relevant POISON TYPE (emetic, k-o, neuro, fear, mind), then with the APPLY skill, or the relevant METHOD skill (food, drink, weapon, contact, inhaled), and finally in the case of inhaled poisons the target may yet resist it. Not to mention that to begin with you must first buy or gather the necessary ingredients.

n/t

This is pretty cool revamp. I kinda like the general path addition idea.

- Thieves cant added as a skill for all thieves

What does this mean?

Anyway, it'd be nice to see the prequisite skill and cost in the thief points in the table in the helpfiles if there's room (unless it's simply the previous one like before).

Also, it's be nice to see those in the tables in the thief page, as that would be very handy for planning the combination.

>This is pretty cool revamp. I kinda like the general path
>addition idea.
>
>- Thieves cant added as a skill for all thieves
>
>What does this mean?

Read the help file :P

>Anyway, it'd be nice to see the prequisite skill and cost in
>the thief points in the table in the helpfiles if there's room
>(unless it's simply the previous one like before).
>
>Also, it's be nice to see those in the tables in the thief
>page, as that would be very handy for planning the
>combination.

I'd rather just leave them in the study command so when I tweak the cost of something I don't have to update the cost in 3 or more different places. That is why it was intentionally left out of the help files.

As in "thieves can't ...". Anyway, looks like pretty cool addition.



:P

I love it! Study command looks fantastic. I also love the grab bag of general thief skills and shortened paths, this was a great idea. I guess I picked a good time to have a lowbie thief.

Some quick notes regarding helpfiles from my very quick login today:

I know in the past, the mystic path and where to find it was kind of kept on the down-low. Currently, there is no mention of or hint in the helpfiles as to where the mystic path or the locksmith path can be studied. It'd be nice if the helpfiles for these paths said where to find them. If it's intended that they still be hard to find, it might be nice to see a note in the helpfiles saying as such. Something along the lines of "the teachers of these advanced and rare thief arts tend to keep a low profile, and are somewhat hard to find" would be great, just so we know it's intentional and not an oversight.

There's no clear and definitive list for all the "known" thief paths anywhere, seems like there should be one in the helpfile for thief paths. It also seems like for clarity's sake, there should be a separate helpfile regarding "thief guildhalls" and "thief paths".

Some of the new skills are/may be missing helpfiles, but you probably know that. I typo'd the only one I noticed.

>I know in the past, the mystic path and where to find it was
>kind of kept on the down-low. Currently, there is no mention
>of or hint in the helpfiles as to where the mystic path or the
>locksmith path can be studied. It'd be nice if the helpfiles
>for these paths said where to find them. If it's intended that
>they still be hard to find, it might be nice to see a note in
>the helpfiles saying as such. Something along the lines of
>"the teachers of these advanced and rare thief arts tend to
>keep a low profile, and are somewhat hard to find" would be
>great, just so we know it's intentional and not an oversight.

Uhm...read help thief path

>There's no clear and definitive list for all the "known" thief
>paths anywhere, seems like there should be one in the helpfile
>for thief paths. It also seems like for clarity's sake, there
>should be a separate helpfile regarding "thief guildhalls" and
>"thief paths".

Uhm...read help thief path

>Some of the new skills are/may be missing helpfiles, but you
>probably know that. I typo'd the only one I noticed.

I thought I had them all covered...

I think my issue is more with the fact that it's difficult to find that information, than whether or not it's actually there or not. I made a few suggestions as to how to make it more user-friendly and readable. I understand it's probably not high on your priority list but I think it's important that complex systems like this have well organized, easy to read and easy to understand helpfiles to go along with them. Most everything else in the game does, no reason for something as cool as thieves to have a sucky helpfile.

>I think my issue is more with the fact that it's difficult to
>find that information, than whether or not it's actually there
>or not.

How is it difficult to find? The first "See also" in help thieves is GUILDHALLS which contains all this information?

>I made a few suggestions as to how to make it more
>user-friendly and readable.

Currently, there is no mention of or hint in the helpfiles as to where the mystic path or the locksmith path can be studied. It'd be nice if the helpfiles for these paths said where to find them.

I don't think it gets much clearer than what's in the helpfile...

Type/Path      City               First Skill      Membership Required  
Mystic         Arkham             Scrolls
Locksmith      Darsylon           Advanced Picklock

There's no clear and definitive list for all the "known" thief paths anywhere, seems like there should be one in the helpfile for thief paths. It also seems like for clarity's sake, there should be a separate helpfile regarding "thief guildhalls" and "thief paths".

Again...not sure how it can get much clearer than what's in the helpfile...

Type/Path      City               First Skill      Membership Required  
Trapper        Blackclaw          Bag of Tricks            X  
Trapper        Arial City         Bag of Tricks 
Trapper        Upper Cragstone    Bag of Tricks
Thug           Dagdan             Push                     X  
Thug           Tir-Talath         Push  
Thug           Northern Mountains Push 
Pickpocket     Galadon            Plant                    X  
Pickpocket     Udgaard            Plant  
Binder         Hamsah Mu'Tazz     Nimble Fingers           X  
Binder         Seantryn Modan     Nimble Fingers  
Binder         Village of Barovia Nimble Fingers
Poisoner       Voralian City      Envenom                  X  
Poisoner       Hillcrest          Envenom
Poisoner       Evermoon Hollow    Envenom 
Mystic         Arkham             Scrolls
Locksmith      Darsylon           Advanced Picklock

>I understand it's probably not
>high on your priority list but I think it's important that
>complex systems like this have well organized, easy to read
>and easy to understand helpfiles to go along with them. Most
>everything else in the game does, no reason for something as
>cool as thieves to have a sucky helpfile.

Ah, damnit. I didn't realize I posted that reply last night. The helpfiles are fine, I'd been drinking. Feel free to delete these, and sorry.

Seriously though, I'm rolling a thief. You ####ing rock Zulg.

Hip Hip Hooray, Zulg!

It's not as cool as it used to be, but it definitely has its uses.