I'll elaborate a bit:

<47%hp 8%m 70%mv 15328tnl (-3.01%)> af
You are affected by:
Skill: 'sleep' for 1 hours.

That's why you can't wake up.

<47%hp 8%m 70%mv 15328tnl (-3.01%)> af

You howl in pain as blood flows through the pores of your skin.
Your head clears, and you feel able to wake yourself.

You're so wounded, you can wake up now.

<34%hp 1%m 64%mv 15328tnl (-3.01%)> You are affected by:
Spell: 'weaken' modifies strength by -7 for 13 hours.
Commune: 'protection from evil' for 13 hours.
Spell: 'curse' modifies save vs spell by 8 for 12 hours.
Spell: 'curse' modifies hit roll by -4 for 12 hours.
Commune: 'crusade' modifies save vs spell by -6 for 11 hours.
Commune: 'crusade' modifies hit roll by 3 for 11 hours.
Commune: 'detect evil' for 8 hours.
Commune: 'detect invis' for 8 hours.
Skill: 'poison' modifies strength by -5 for 6 hours.
Commune: 'bless' modifies save vs spell by -6 for 6 hours.
Commune: 'bless' modifies hit roll by 3 for 6 hours.
Spell: 'blindness' modifies hit roll by -4 for 5 hours.
Physical effect: 'crimson scourge' modifies strength by -8 for 3 hours.
Spell: 'faerie fire' modifies armor class by 70 for 2 hours.
Commune: 'haven' for 2 hours.

See? No sleep affect! Wake up and quaff!

<34%hp 1%m 64%mv 15328tnl (-3.01%)> flee

You yell 'Help someone is attacking me!'

What's that? Someone cast another spell on you. Wonder what spell it was...

<34%hp 1%m 64%mv 15328tnl (-3.01%)> sta
You can't wake up!

<34%hp 1%m 64%mv 15328tnl (-3.01%)> af
You are affected by:
Skill: 'sleep' for 6 hours.

Crap.

<34%hp 1%m 64%mv 15328tnl (-3.01%)>
You howl in pain as blood flows through the pores of your skin.
Your head clears, and you feel able to wake yourself.

Wake up and quaff, man!

<21%hp -4%m 59%mv 15328tnl (-3.01%)>
You yell 'Help someone is attacking me!'

He wouldn't have...would he?

<21%hp -4%m 59%mv 15328tnl (-3.01%)> af

You howl in pain as blood flows through the pores of your skin.
Your head clears, and you feel able to wake yourself.

Wake and quaff! Do it!

<8%hp -11%m 53%mv 15328tnl (-3.01%)> You are affected by:
Spell: 'weaken' modifies strength by -7 for 11 hours.
Commune: 'protection from evil' for 11 hours.
Spell: 'curse' modifies save vs spell by 8 for 10 hours.
Spell: 'curse' modifies hit roll by -4 for 10 hours.
Commune: 'crusade' modifies save vs spell by -6 for 9 hours.
Commune: 'crusade' modifies hit roll by 3 for 9 hours.
Commune: 'detect evil' for 6 hours.
Commune: 'detect invis' for 6 hours.
Skill: 'poison' modifies strength by -5 for 4 hours.
Commune: 'bless' modifies save vs spell by -6 for 4 hours.
Commune: 'bless' modifies hit roll by 3 for 4 hours.
Spell: 'blindness' modifies hit roll by -4 for 3 hours.
Physical effect: 'crimson scourge' modifies strength by -8 for 1 hours.
Spell: 'faerie fire' modifies armor class by 70 for 0 hours.
Commune: 'haven' for 0 hours.

No sleep affect! Wake and...

<8%hp -11%m 53%mv 15328tnl (-3.01%)>
You yell 'Help someone is attacking me!'

Double crap.

<8%hp -11%m 53%mv 15328tnl (-3.01%)> sta
You can't wake up!

<8%hp -11%m 53%mv 15328tnl (-3.01%)> flee
In your dreams, or what?

Necro tactic. It is beatable.

Kastellyn the Devourer of Magic, Lord of Legends

Is this something the game-balance/funstick people can look at please? I didn't post this log, but to me, it seems counter-intuitive to the whole 'Necro flee/sleep tactic is not as effective', when they just sit there with a tic counter and queue in a cast 'sleep' @target and just wait to hit return. Dying without getting a single command off is no fun, especially when necros already have a spell that does this (PWK). Thanks for listening!

This isn't a new tactic; it's been around forever. I used it some with my necro back in 2000. It can be daunting if you don't understand what is happening, but if you do understand, you can (more often than not) wake;quaff teleportation before the necro can get another successful sleep off on you. Remember, he's got to not fail concentration on the spell, and it has to go through all your saves; if you at least wake up, he'll have a harder time landing the spell. Panic kills more folks in this situation than anything else. Keep a level head, understand what the necro is doing, and you've got a shot at getting away. Play a necro and try using this tactic, and you'll see that it isn't near as effective as this log would lead you to believe.

Kastellyn the Devourer of Magic, Lord of Legends

Look at that necro's pk record.

This 'tactic' is to _me_ a loophole in game logic. You imms already put in a check for failed sleep attempts so people can't flee/sleep. But using this tactic he already has you asleep/cursed/scourged/poisoned/plagued/blind/etc. How hard is another sleep at this point? Another even hour of that at low-mid level is death for anyone. And the guy risks nothing at this point. To me its skewed, and contrary to current game logic, do you think that just because 'It's been around and beatable' it shouldn't be changed?

*cough*

Thanks for listening :)

>This 'tactic' is to _me_ a loophole in game logic. You imms
>already put in a check for failed sleep attempts so people
>can't flee/sleep.

You absolutely can still flee/sleep; it's just not as effective as it used to be.

You put a check in already to wake the victim once they are < 50% health (or whatever it is). Why allow it to be bypassed by clever use of a skill? Obviously you don't want necromancers to put people to sleep and then let them die from maledicts, this tactic does effectively that. Why have the low health check in at all then?

Again thanks for listening.

>Obviously you don't want necromancers
>to put people to sleep and then let them die from maledicts,
>this tactic does effectively that.

I wouldn't say that.

I would say that I don't want necromancers to put people to sleep and then have them die from maledicts without the victim being able to do anything after being initially slept.

Look at that necro's pk record.

I don't know who the necro is.

How hard is another sleep at this point?

I don't know exactly how hard it is, but it's not going to land 100% of the time.

And the guy risks nothing at this point.

You risk a LOT by hanging out next to a sleeping person waiting for your maladictions to kill him. There have been plenty of times I've had to prematurely initiate the kill on a sleeping enemy due to tactical considerations. There have also been plenty of times I've waited around and gotten smushed.

To me its skewed, and contrary to current game logic, do you think that just because 'It's been around and beatable' it shouldn't be changed?

The fact that something's been around and beatable for a long time is never a reason to NOT change it. But one log of one guy falling prey to this tactic, weighed against a pretty significant amount of personal experience from both sides of this tactic, lead me to believe that it's fine as is.

My balance perspective on this one stems from the fact that it's probably just as hard for a necromancer to get you into that position as it is for you to get yourself out of it.

Thanks for listening :)

No worries! Though I would ask that any more discussion on this matter be taken to the Gameplay board. Leave the bug board to bugs!

Kastellyn the Devourer of Magic, Lord of Legends

Accidently edited your message vice replying with my own.

Kastellyn the Devourer of Magic, Lord of Legends