Malakhi's post
Here is my humble suggestion:

Give hunters dual wield. That alone would make them much, much more competitive.

You could mess around with flashier bow type stuff, but I think the reason hunters are so weak is because they give up the classic melée class advantage (dual wield) and don't get the burst/malediction/damage reduction potential that the other single wield classes get.

So there's my Santa Zulg 2011 request: give hunters dual wield

I wanted to say that I'm against this because I think dual-wielding hunters with dual-serpent-strike would be grossly overpowered. I rather like the uniqueness and flavor of hunters and I agree that something needs to be changed, but not adding the dual-wield skill.

If anything, I think a three-part change to aimed shot would fix hunters quite a bit. They're a really defensive ranger build, which is nice, with one of their greatest downfalls being the lack of lagging ability.
- Increase the accuracy of aimed shot based on the amount of observes you have built up. How many observes you need would depend on your intelligence, thus allowing bow-hunting viability with elf/wood-elf hunters. Since an "aimed shot head" is lag and nasty maledictions, greatly increasing the accuracy of this would help land kills
- Give bows a damage bonus based on weight and strength, which should make a storm giant ranger slightly more feasible (Heavier bow = more durable, stronger string. Higher strength = pull string back further a la The Rock in The Scorpion King)
- I'd also like to see increasing "aimed shot torso" to trip lag instead of 1 round lag.


Overall, hunters are a finesse-kill defensive ranger build. They shouldn't have the PK win count of a savage or beastmaster, but they shouldn't have the PK loss count of a savage or beastmaster either. I think their effectiveness relies greatly on the ability of their primary skills to work (i.e. timed attack, aimed shot) and giving them some way to reliably lag (i.e. tweaking aimed shot)

Is to improve their existing abilities. Adding a couple levels onto the poison/immolate effect and improving the lag/malediction factors of aimed shot fixes the class.

Why not come up with specifics and add it to the long term thread?

responding with a question that isn't really a question.

For me, the main "typical" thing about lawyering is billable hours

Where is the long term thread? I'll add it if you link it but basically I think they just need :

Aimed shot - hitting other body parts less often, having better lag potential (meaning occassionally perma-lagging, occassionally trip lagging - remove one round lagging).

That's basically it.

My issue also with the longterm concept is that, like Mariners, it will sit there for a couple years and nothing will happen. I'd be really happy with a quick fix - its better than no fix at all.

I'll add it.

The thing I've learned in IMM-land re: "quick fixes" is that (1) there are only a couple people with the authority and ability to make them, (2) you have to pique their interest with the idea, and (3) the less time consuming and more fleshed out the idea, the more enticing it is to add it.

I remember bow shots having a horrific success rate and the maledictions being sub par. So I figured if you proposed something that involved specifics, it'd be more likely to catch then if you proposed something more vague that requires the "right person" to have to do some digging and work on their own.

I remember running around with the new beastmasters bare-clawed doing oblits with predators stance. It was fun for about a minute, but that kind of overpoweredness gets boring fast.

I never got to have the hunter experience with "overpowered hunters". With the success rate, I can see the head shot success rate being too strong if its too accurate, but why lower the success rate on torso shot? As it is, it's only 0-1 rounds of lag for the recipient against someone who gets off max two hits per round with a bow. How does that compare to any other build of ranger getting dual wield (max 6 hits per round) possibly perma-lagging with enlarged mountaineer terrain bearcharging?

You still only get one attack with serpent strike...

With a variety of extra effects.

They're suggesting that dual wield + doublehit serpent strike could be a pretty overpowering force at lower levels, which I sort of agree with, so they'd have to take that into consideration.

just sounded like he thought dual wield = even more serpent strikes. like 4 for hunters.


if only heh

That having a lagging ability when you only get 2 attacks a round is not overly useful unless you are ganging with someone else who can actually drop the other persons HP.

With the potential for say 3-4 bow strikes under observation or high rapid shot/precision or high level or all three. My real problem with hunters is that you can't maledict enough to not care about low damage per strike (like say a dagger spec) and you don't do enough damage to overpower someone. Couple that with low to zero lagging ability and you end up with an ineffective class at best.

You could also up the damage per strike on bows, but I think more attacks makes more sense then bows having a 40 avg.

> My
>real problem with hunters is that you can't maledict enough to
>not care about low damage per strike (like say a dagger spec)
>and you don't do enough damage to overpower someone. Couple
>that with low to zero lagging ability and you end up with an
>ineffective class at best.
>

I agree which l made my CF-mas wish for those poor guys.

The reason why I suggested dual instead of more bow attacks is because hunters are only the supreme tank with a bow in their hands. Without a bow, they're just rangers without the ability to lag or entangle. So if you give them dual wield, you increase their potential offense without messing around with the balancing considerations that made archery such a strong defense.

As far as dual making them "grossly overpowered" I have to ask, "compared to what?". It depends on the level they get two serpent strikes and dual wield.

ETA: I meant to add that you can't parry arrows as part of the archery balancing considerations.

But they are low damage and can be avoided with every other defense (dodge shield block spin, etc.) AFAIK... So it isn't like every bow attack hits...

Well, it depends: several classes have parry as their only defense.

I don't think you can distance or spin bow attacks; if someone can find me a log of it happening I'll probably change it.

even if you made them completly unblockable...

Oh no they are landing two attacks a round, I might run out of hp in 15 rounds at that pace!

Okay, then I guess I won't fix it.

:p

Landing two unblockable attacks per round AND supreme defenses...

Sure, if you are in the wild, and your opponent can't maledict, and can't disarm, and doesn't have direct damage skills or spells.

I'm not even convinced on the supreme defenses part.

I'd bet, felar ranger with ranger spear (and nothing else) in home terrain beats hunter (any race) in a fight with no commands entered.

I'm not convinced the extra "archery" defense bonus beats a non-felar ranger using a ranger staff/spear in the same sort of set up, and I'd even bet sword/shield ranger is just as defensive or more in a similar setup. Out of the wilds... who knows for sure, but I'm fairly certain hunter defensive bonus probably still wouldn't overcome basic ranger defenses enough to make up for lack of offense.

>I'd bet, felar ranger with ranger spear (and nothing else) in
>home terrain beats hunter (any race) in a fight with no
>commands entered.

Even if we assume that's true, that's not really a test of pure tanking since one of the combatants is dual wielding and the other isn't.

High dex wilderness familiarity character is also, by a wide margin, the hardest thing for a bow hunter to hit. (Well, maybe mongoose.) You might as well say polearm tanks better than spear and to prove it we're going to have both tank down a necromancer with a dagger who casts no spells.

But my aim was more to compare a hunter ranger vs. other ranger to see which tanks better. If we pit both of those vs. say dwarf mace spec in the wilds (no commands entered) I'm still not convinced that non-felar with imbued spear doesn't come out ahead of hunter ranger in the damage taken vs. damage inflicted category. Meaning, while hunter might tank marginally better, the healing + additional attacks of a spear/staff user means they would still win the fight sooner (or lose slower or whatever).

Sure, that might be true. I haven't tried to do the math or put it to the test.

I didn't really do any of the design on hunters. You can tell because my stuff is cooler.

However the hunter will do better in civilized terrain given the same conditions I'd bet.

sdvav

Staff ranger relies on wilderness familiarity + dodge to help stay alive while staff does it's healing.

Therefore, staff ranger's survivability increases exponentially the longer the fight drags on (more healing).

Take away equal amounts of dodge from both classes and that exponential increase becomes an exponential decrease.

The healing is what makes the difference. Take healing out of the equation and bow ranger tanks better by far in every situation.

Then why does my hunter ranger (pre-wilderness familiarity) tank better with sword shield and dodge then with a bow?

Oh, I also do more damage.

What is your archery % at?

more damage sword/board goes without saying, until you at least have rapid shot (remember this is without commands, serpent strike obviously trumps any damage you are going to do with the bow).

Are you a low dex build? (under 24, though haven't played 23 dex yet)

Bows were pretty gimmicky. I didnt use them much beyond the occasional flaming arrow or aimed headshot/torso (flaming arrow preventing rest/sleep would be pretty helpful).

I made extensive use of serpentstrike, though, as it was my bread and butter. I see hunters less as the 'forest assassins' they were intended to be, with their playstyle more reminiscent of paladins (Serpentstrike = Wrath, Timed Attack = Predictable Strike of Faith).

Dude, I've played about... oh, 8 hunters up to *at least* wilderness fam. Archery defense is HUGE. I can tank "hooded" mobs with a bow much easier than I can with a sword/shield or staff w/ healing. That's even with higher defense percentages with dodge/shield block/parry. However, the killing of the mob is much, much slower until rapid shot if I'm trying to rank solo. Add bait to the equation and you're the best tank in the game, period.

Because the only thing missing would be wilderness familiarity and thus no change other than they both die faster.

The longer a fight is, the more effective hp the imbued staff/spear wielder will have.

So if both rangers lose say 10% of defense, then the staff ranger also loses a % of healing.

Supreme defenses in regards to melee.

Don't need to be in the wild to tank as a hunter.

Race will matter in your fight. 23 or more dex, I'd bet hunter wins. However, as Daev pointed out, this isn't a good test of "whose defenses are better"

It definitely overcomes basic ranger defenses, however, the point has been made that the healing from ranger staff mitigates this a lot. This is true.

On the other hand. Archery is bad ass defenses even in civilized, where the staff ranger loses much of his dodge ability.

I guess I'm going by bow damage from past experience.

Here's my character:

http://www.qhcf.net/phorum/read.php?18,792369,792369#msg-792369

http://www.qhcf.net/phorum/read.php?18,792366,792366#msg-792366

http://www.qhcf.net/phorum/read.php?18,792365,792365#msg-792365

http://www.qhcf.net/phorum/read.php?18,792368,792368#msg-792368

Here's Trevant:

http://www.qhcf.net/phorum/read.php?18,795119,795119#msg-795119

(Trevant without bow, but high observes)
http://www.qhcf.net/phorum/read.php?18,781141,781141#msg-781141

It's not indicative of all bow fights, but add some lag to that and they'll output damage just fine.

Yeah. Bear in mind I had all weapons perfected, all defenses perfected except evade, (it was introduced while playing Trevant) and I played the character over the span of like 18+ months.

That being said, really all I wanted was more consistent lag/usability of aimed shot - and also it'd be nice if some of the bleeding from serpent/harpoon were able to be stacked.

Would also be nice if stormcalling worked but it was bugged the entire time I played Trevant .

Most of the fights were against warriors (none of whom were using shields, apparently) and the only time I saw someone avoid getting hit from non-dodge was a "xxx's arrow bounces off your stony hide", which is the armor use skill.

Something that occurred to me looking through the logs and from past experience, bows seem pretty easy to disarm, though I know you've said that it should be harder to do so. Does the "harder to disarm" factor in skills like grapple, entrap, and two-handed weapon disarming?