Hey Adekar, or anyone else that has input on it...

In Miyo graveyard thread you mentioned CG specifically in taking sword of the heavens if they want to PK, and it got me wondering again if there is more than meets the eye on that edge.

The helpfile specifically only says that it lowers the threshhold to call higher level angels, like many of the other conjurer edges do for different conjurations. Is that all it does really? And if so, what benefit at all does such an expensive edge give if you are consistently getting archangels without it?

I keep wanting to convince myself that there is someting more to it, but in the times I've taken it I didn't see anything. If anything, when I took it it messed me up in getting archangels because I was putting too much mana into calling angels at first and I had to start experimenting again to find a good mana input to get them again.

Sorry to dredge up a relatively old topic, but...

Do SotH and "Student of Virtue" basically act the same, except SotH applies only to angels and has a more pronounced effect?

Or is Student of Virtue different somehow?

I believe they are the same, but as you said, student of virtues is a good bit of a lesser version.

Sword and Shield of the heavens are specific to Angels and Archon respectively.

Do they stack with each other? And with celestial affinity, for elves?

If they both pertain to the same spells, and one is even a PREREQUISITE of the other...

I would have to say the answer is Yes.

Daw

SoV is a prereq for SotH? Discuss prereq doesn't indicate that properly, then, when I discuss the prereqs for SotH.

But I can read helpfiles

'SWORD OF THE HEAVENS'
Some students of virtue progress in their art, learning to petition the purest and
most fierce of angels.

See also: EDGES, 'CONJURE ANGEL', ____'STUDENT OF VIRTUE'_____

That would be why I think its a prereq. (Also having played a few evils, student of vice is the same as virtue but for team evil)

>The helpfile specifically only says that it lowers the
>threshhold to call higher level angels, like many of the other
>conjurer edges do for different conjurations.

I reread the helpfile and I don't see that at all.

I can't get to helpfiles at work, which is where I do most of my CF pondering. Totally misplaced in my head that the entry there for the edges was the helpfile instead of just some player that had it's take on what they think it does.


That being said, I guess that is the perception of what that and the edges do, and I haven't been able to get a feel to say anything other wise.

Is there more than meets the eye on this edge and the other conjuring ones like it? I had written in my personal notes not to take it because I thought I could match what it does just by keeping on course of what works to call an archangel...am I totally missing something in the perk of taking this upper tier edge?

gr

.

gr

But I am a small sample size by myself.

When I took the edge, I went from getting hooded archangels consistently to getting a weak winged angel with the same mana 5 times in a row. I had to start putting less mana into it to start getting the same strength again and even then it was hit and miss just as much as before.

With conjuration, less mana never yields a stronger servitor.

editing to clarify: on a given conjuration. Sometimes your mana buys power, sometimes it buys duration, but in the case that it buys power, you are never better off having spent less mana.

nt

Actually that's probably a lot of what CA does, since that's a lot of what charisma is normally good for.

SotH always gets you at least a marginally better angel than you would have gotten without it.

Interesting. I guess there is a hell of a lot more variations in what might come than I thought. I know there can be razor sharp and hooded archangels, but the latter is pretty rare from what I've seen once higher in level, but maybe all hooded ones are not created equal still.

Either way, thanks. I was thinking that that edge was like taking full coverage auto insurance when the only time you drive is when you drive 2 blocks to church on Sundays.

I took both of the edges in question CA and SoTH and I was actually convinced that I was somehow wrapping around with too much mana and getting crappier servants with the cherub bonus + the edges + charisma. I had the same experience when I first got it that I was getting worse servitors until I figured out what the new "sweet spot" is.

Tac

I think I ended up starting to put about 200 less mana each time and I got more consistent again in getting what I hoped for.

But, I didn't (and don't) know what was going on for sure, so maybe if I would have put a little more in instead of a little less I could have ended up having even stronger ones. I am going to just have to buck up and take the edge and do even more testing to figure out whats what there. If my next conjurer can find a barrier source to rely on, that has been my plan all along anyhow, but my last two conjurers couldn't find barrier, so I was handcuffed to relying on archons more often than not at hero.

If you had it to do over again with that goodie conjie....would you have taken that edge if you had it to do over again?


I had told myself I wouldn't anymore, but Adekar told Aervery in character that it would be a god idea, and mentioned it to Miyo in the goodbye thread, and it got me wondering again if there is a big reason that I need to look long and hard at that decision not to take it.

Given what nep's said so far it seems like the "sweet spot" is a big fat myth.

That is to say you never punish yourself by putting in more mana; you may just fail to gain any significant additional benefit.

I know what he's said, but frankly, it doesn't jive with my experience. Basically, under normal veil conditions, I could put so much mana in that I was more or less guaranteed to get a winged angel that stayed for a long as time, or I could put in less and get an archangel that stayed for a conjure or two. Of course the veil completely ####s a conjie, and I ended up having to quit when the village got too strong because I felt completely crippled, but that's neither here nor there. I suck at hero pk which I'm sure is a larger factor in that equation.

Habbs,

If I had to do it over, no I don't think I would take the edge again. Considering I took it very early on and it didn't seem to help in a way I could predict, I would rather have had other edges in the long run.

Tac

That is/was my thought on it as well, which prompted this post seeing if Adekar would give his thoughts on it since have been a supporter of the edge.

I need to go back and look for logs I had with Adekar in them and see if his angels have a sticker on their back that says "I don't brake for evil."

I think I had it at level 32, if you're looking at logs. Though most of the time I played Adekar I had so many other Fortress people on that there weren't many people to kill unless they were going to be ganked.

But really, if you're a Maran and your main objective is to pk, why wouldn't you want to take an edge that increases the level of your best servitor for doing so?

I didn't write nor have I looked at any of the code for conjurers or these edges, but I think there's a fair amount of weird superstition surrounding conjuring.

Certainly there's an opportunity cost to pay in terms of downtime, but more mana and higher level is always better (unless you're pretty sure they're going to turn on you).

The only reason I hadn't wanted to was because when I took it the first time it seems like not only did it not increase the level, it was seeming to make it harder to get them as high as I was before.

I'll definately be re-assessing that, but wanted to see what you thought on it. Love guys like you ending up on immstaff, but it also sucks in some ways that your death thread is so delays for the chance of the biography that tells all your observations if you are willing to give them, and no PBF to peruse to see how you did things. I've always wondered what you pk stats looked like, and edges, and imm comments, and such.

Was funny when I was digging through them and found that I ws atually there when you ranked from 31 to 35.

You didn't mention SoTH edge to me until much later, and after that point I didn't see you with anything but archons before I ended up ditching that conjurer. My next wasn't for a time later, and the only time I saw you was riiight before you were Avatar.

I didn't realize it was you that helped me as much as you did at that time...still relying on stuff you taught me with my conjurers and other mages. Another thanks for that help.

I bet it turns out to be some wierd bug like they declare the mana thing as an integer and when it hits a certain point it overflows and then executes using a smaller value.


I have played a number of conjurers and had all of the better servitor edges except the super devil and super fiend ones. From my experience in practice it lowered the threshold of mana I would have to put in to get a certain tier servitor. But if I kept using my standard mana to get a top tier servitor that I used before taking the edges all of a sudden I was drastically more likely to end up getting a long lasting low tier servitor then to get the top tier servitor.

mechanically they should really consider splitting the difference instead of all to duration or all to upper tier. so instead of a archangel or a 2.5 bind duration winged it would be an archangel or a 1.5 bind duration radiant angel.

Sounds like they're calling you out, Nepenthe!

Time to break out the K&R.

I've run conjurer a number of times.

I believe you've played them. I even believe you've looked at the code and that you think the math works out the way you are saying, but I'd be very very happy if you went and tested on the test port and shared results. I don't want hard numbers per say, but I've just never gotten the impression that it works the way you say it does. That could be because of small sample size, or just because it is an onerous thing to test as a real conjie (long downtime for mana regen + reconjure timer) so if you tested it on the test port or whatever and it truly does work the way you say it does, I'd be more confident in changing my conjuring behavior.

Mistakes in how a formula appears to work, how it is supposed to work, and the actual results have happened before. I'm not saying this is 100% the case here, but it does seem that way to me.

Tac

>From my experience in practice it lowered the threshold of
>mana I would have to put in to get a certain tier servitor.
>But if I kept using my standard mana to get a top tier
>servitor that I used before taking the edges all of a sudden I
>was drastically more likely to end up getting a long lasting
>low tier servitor then to get the top tier servitor.

From my experience a long, long time ago when I put obscene mana into a conjuration (like wear a bunch of good +mana gear), it would be like you say: a long lasting low tier servitor. Which is nice at times when you don't want downtime and don't need a high level one.

Hutto, the Sleepy Nitpicker

>Given what nep's said so far it seems like the "sweet spot"
>is a big fat myth.

Yup, at least in the sense that less mana will get you a better servitor.

On the other hand, if 500 mana gets you a transplendant archon and you care only about that and not what level it is, 500 may be better than putting in 1200 and having that extra downtime.

What youre saying is more power is always better in conjuring angels and archons? There is no overthrow, no exact sweet spot? 1300 mana will always be better than 800 mana and so on?

Correct.

Well, stronger, anyway. Sometimes it's possible to conjure a servitor so strong it's too hard for you to bind without a fair bit of luck.

I have been WAY off for years on the whole concept of this. Glad its finally cleared up, I think rumors got going around a while ago and it became known as fact, when it really wasn't. I think most of the playerbase sat with me in thinking there was an overshoot, or a sweet spot of some sort.

while it will always push up the level of the servitor different tiers use different skill sets and it often having access to different servitor abilities vastly overshadows the boost to their ability levels.

for instance luminous archons heal half as much per heal casting regardless of its level relative to other archons.

abishai devils spell list is skewed towards direct damage vs maledictions and it has a lot fewer choices for both and weaker AI in terms of when to use which then other devils.

While we're on the topic...

I assume level just affects the potency of their communes and how buff they are in melee (hp, damage, etc.) whereas the "type" (luminous, radiant, etc.) determines *what* they actually cast and/or do?

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