Yeah, you're right, I didn't get that you were agreeing Orcs were viable at hero as is.

My overall point re: your success is simply that if (1) orcs are viable as is, and (2) your most successful PK character at hero, ever, was an orc, don't you (3) think it is a little crazy to propose changes to orc skills that are clearly powerups?

You can take my unsolicited advice with a grain of salt, but maybe you would have more mileage with your skill suggestions if you could think of a way to change the "usefulness" of a skill without flat out making it more powerful when the class - by your own admission - does not need more powerups to make it competitive at any rank from 1 to 51.

Orcs are confusing to get a grasp on, balance wise. You have people like you that say they're viable as is, and then you have people like Torak, above, seemingly saying they're nigh unplayable at hero, and then you have people that still think Sip should never have been fixed Throwing out the hyperbole (like calling assemble horde useless) just adds to the white noise and really detracts from your point of view IMO. It seems from your line of posts going back and forth with Torak, above, that you're frustrated with the lack of response to your ideas, and that maybe-might-could have something to do with it, who knows.

Re: flail/whip/mace. Like I said, I think there are times when, for example, (1) you're fighting a shaman, (2) you want to parry better, and (3) the lack of a dualed weapon is not a net negative. I wasn't saying "headbutt was better than lash," I was saying that "headbutt is not useless." But like you said, I'll feel free to try it.