I've read it's been upped recently and decided to give it a try.

I remember testing out its effects before it was tweaked and it was something insignificant like double movement cost for walking or inability to eat for 1 tick, or some negligible chance of them fleeing.

So now it's all new and stronger across the board. Figured I'd give it a go. The problem is, about the only change I've noticed is longer duration. Even testing it against PCs of low-int races gave me nothing.

I've been told it maladicts. It certainly doesn't show anything on affects and I don't know how to ask a friend ICly to check his score and see if his strength dropped.

So please, some enlightenment? I seriously have no idea how I'm supposed to figure out those effects in-game.

I agree that the helpfile is insufficient here but I don't remember the right answer off the top of my head.

I'll try to look this up and fill it in soon.

nt

I'll use this as permission to answer.

Lethargy: victim becomes burdened, loses dex, and movement regen is lowered
Vertigo: victim loses intelligence, targeted abilities have a chance to target random person
Cowardice: victim has a chance to flee every round of combat, loses morale
Despair: victim loses strength, defenses become worse, loses morale
Nausea: victim loses con, chance for attacks to fail

This ability's duration is measured in rounds of combat rather than hours of game time.
The lack of information on the affect list was intentional, so the victim doesn't know which hypno affect you went for.

nt

Unless it was hugely buffed, it was fairly lackluster and is in desperate need of tweaking.

-It requires being in combat (so no cool trick with binding and staring into their eyes)
-It can only have one effect.
-It seemed to fail a whole lot even in the 90s with a high int thief
-Arcane vision seemed to do nothing to it (should do something cool)
-Almost all of these you need to basically be in combat to see effectiveness, which thieves in general don't want to do... especially a thief that can't read scrolls in combat (another missing ability for these thieves)
-Duration in rounds of combat makes this one of the shortest abilities in the game...
-No cool echoes :(

Now with it spelled out above it may seem cool, but it was very low on effectiveness across the board. For example, having someone have a "chance for attacks to fail" was like getting a single or maybe if you're lucky two feints across a couple rounds... maybe. Having the final ability of a very "meh" line of skills in general (I remember the original immortals saying they didn't think it was a real thief path) and after investing 34 points on things that could be so much more useful.... maybe if you could stack these (and it's even a 2 round lag to do this) it'd have worth but right now I'm not seeing it. It's supposed to be the light at the end of a very dim tunnel and you get to it thinking "I just made a guy for this?"

Maybe in a raid situation, you have a minimal chance of causing one guy to pincer another? Is that worth 34 points (or at least 12 points above lore of the ages)?

I'm still waiting for some thief to prove me wrong but you could spend your points almost every other path and get more mileage. Only things really worth having in that path are arcane lore, scrolls, and lore of the ages.

Having read what they do, honestly yes, it does strike me as worth 12 points.

I can see situations where I'd do all of these things.

Dropping con is great for landing poisons for instance.
Dropping morale affects how often their skills land.
Dropping int can hinder saves and legacies like striking.
Etc.

It strikes me very much as a cabal raid tool, not a solo PVP tool. Which is cool because thieves tend to be weaker at cabal raids than they are at solo PVP.

Thieves are amazing at cabal fights. Grenades/emetic will stop most raids flat out, not to mention traps and pepper dust. Parting block stops people from escaping, scrolls can blast the room with some pretty devastating effects.

And it's not 12 points, it's 34 points to get to this. If you want to land poisons with hypnotize (yeah because lowering con for 2-3 rounds by 2 points is HUGE! *sarcasm*), you've already spent 64 points to finish being a poisoner. You've got a whopping 2 points left. No cheap shot, no adv. pick lock so you can actually afford poisons (which will sink your money faster than anything), no gentlewalk to get around...

Prove me wrong though. Make that badass hypnotizer and show the world how wrong I am. They've been in for years and hasn't been one yet.

Should I just make a bot that follows you around and reminds you that...

A. Not everything in the mud is designed to be a "powerhouse".

B. Not everything you think should be a "powerhouse" should be a powerhouse.

C. Just because you think its broken. Doesn't mean the people doing the balance agree.

D. Your failure to make it work the way YOU think it should, proves NOTHING about the design of the class or skill.

Seriously.. it wouldn't be that hard to make a bot that follows you around posting this.

Noticed you lurking around Dio's and here a time or two...still playing?

where I am, and what I'm doing..

The NSA as well likely.

Lets just say I'm around.

>Prove me wrong though. Make that badass hypnotizer and show
>the world how wrong I am. They've been in for years and hasn't
>been one yet.

Playing devil's advocate: pre-Flaaayin, people were saying something very similar about poisoners and trappers, much less the considered-godawful trapper-poisoner combo.

I think one of the awesomest enduring things about CF is that the kind of character people think is a joke one day is the thing they bitch about the "obvious" overpoweredness of a month later.

Doesn't count for balance considerations being debated when you, whether through DV or just passing them out directly for mediocre RP, give him an extra 20 thief points. The vast majority of thieves will never see those points, and not for lack of trying. Just a glance at his skill list alone reveals an obsessive compulsive player, not a player who was just having fun.

For balance, DV is great, but point costs really need to be looked at again overall.

A long-lived thief who wants to prioritize DV can get 20 extra points pretty reliably.

Now 30, 30 is doable but hard.

Because if so, being long lived doesn't cut it. Long lived with no role will not get you much, if anything, in the way of imm exp. A role that the staff doesn't "approve" of will net the same. I'm not exactly sure how Imm Exp requirements are different from pay-for-perks except that at least with pay-for-perks the only limiting factor is your credit card instead of whether you write nice stories in English.

Obviously I hate Imm Exp requirements for anything (healing sleeves, Silent, etc.) and doubly so because the only reliable way to get Imm Exp (especially at any level below 51) is to write a role, which is supposed to be optional.

Either make roles required and remove Imm Exp requirements for stuff (or automatic 2.5k exp for role), or just remove Imm Exp requirements and keep roles optional. I don't particularly care which, but I'd sure like one of those.

That said, I'd gladly help you write roles in English if you are having trouble. PM me on QHCF with the basic idea of the char and I'll write you something up.

Consider this service available to all ESL.

I am perfectly capable of writing good roles. I just don't want them to be required to enter special parts of the game or do low-level quests. Since Imm EXP might as well be called Role EXP, they are in fact required at present.

You don't appear to be ESL. You just specifically mentioned "written in English," so I assumed.

Considering the ease of writing a paragraph of a role to receive the necessary imm exp/role exp, plus the added benefit of people having a blueprint that admins can check to see if you are really role playing... Seems like a good thing to me. Being required for special parts of the game or low-level quests just means more people are encouraged to have that blueprint in place.

Add that it isn't necessary to "compete" and I don't see any problem.

I do, however, see a problem with player perception of what is required to get role exp. You can literally write a 2-3 sentence summary of your character and still at least get the minimum 500 immortal experience for initial role reading. Hell, it barely has to say anything at all. I've rolled throw aways to see and have received 1k exp for something as simple as a 5 bullet point summary. Each point being less than ten words in length.

It's kind of like complaining about having to write a description. Ok, it takes a miniscule amount of effort and time away from mindless PK, but it benefits the game's atmosphere as a whole.

Now, those poor ESL guys do have an unfair disadvantage (barely) in this realm. For that reason, I offer my services!

I don't see why they should be this kind of optional. It's not hard at all to write a role that will get you 1000 exp. Just a single paragraph set of bullet points explaining your character will do it. I don't think that's too much to ask. You don't have to be good at writing stories unless you want to win role contests or get lots and lots of imm exp.

Often times I notice some characters will have amazing, fleshed out, awesome roles...and I'll have no idea because I never see it in their RP or playstyle.

Some people are good at writing roles. Some are good at playing cool characters. Rare is the person who can do both.

It's easy to do both and having a role doesn't rule out a "fluid" character.

The simple answer is to not write your role as if it is supposed to be the entire character. Initial should just explain the past, and roles going forward can explain actual happenings. No reason role + player can't be fluid.

It's not a high bar to clear. I can't think of a lot of long-lived quality characters with ZERO imm xp.

Devious Versatility DOES require IMMxp? (I had thought you had once said this, but I couldn't find where you did via search)

Thanks!

Is this still true given edge changes?

30 is probably a lot harder.

20 takes what I would not consider an especially high number. More than average maybe but if you look at the top 20 or 30 characters at any time they could have bought it if it was the only thing they bought.

Thanks for the response. Appreciate that. Any thoughts on even a slight adjustment to DV given the new edge system? I think it's only available to heroes and might be an easier tweak than waiting to overhaul thief point system?

I complained about trap thieves for years before they were changed to what Flaayin used (getting secondary effects and increased duration/damage). Years. If I dug enough through the forums I could find probably posts from you telling me that it's just my opinion and that it was fine, someone will show that it is strong, blah blah.

Then suddenly they are changed...and given things like 50 hour blindness that can't be cured. And Flaayin is a beast!

And then they are toned down.... people bitch, so they're given some flair new skills. And now trappers are at a nice balance.

Arcane thieves are in the same boat because it just seems here that in CF land people like to repeat history. It's a terribly lackluster path and has been since I first picked it (and I was the first person to ever pick it, it was the day neo-Arkham came out and the path wasn't even supposed to be released yet). Some people are telling me it's been changed, and maybe it has been made better, but I've done I think 3 if not 4 of these thieves and regretted every one.

It's like some of the Imms read a book on game design titled "Don't make things overpowered!" and therefore make everything just bad to start out, but given that we don't have enough coders/effort from above to change it, it takes years to become something decent.

Don't get me started on hunters...

The boy who cried wolf.

Everything you play you claim is under powered/broken in some form or fashion. This leads me to believe that you just aren't very good at these classes.

I just like playing underplayed combos....and anti-paladins, but basically have never done your basic axe/sword/bash AP and always do polearm/spear and random stuff.

I've had plenty of successful characters.

I thought about calling it before hand, but your answer was pretty predictable.

I call ####, but I'll let you have it.

I think nearly all of the "facts" of your recounting are wrong but I don't actually care enough to haggle over the details.

...and he got a lot of the things tweaked (at least, that's how it seemed).

I remember rolling around with his thief and watching him pepper dust allies or hit me (his groupmate) with a trap (or worse yet, sleeping himself).

I seem to remember a lot of stuff on the bug board around that time and Nepenthe (to his credit) working on just increasing success rates, et cetera.

And remember, Flaaayin was sick because A) His player is the bee's knees 2) He was also a poisoner III) He had that edge that allowed him to combine poisons and traps?? (remembering this correct? no idea) FOUR) He had a pimp-ass Commander taking all the heat off his evil ass

Yeah, this is generally correct but the stuff that got tweaked for me I don't believe actually was the stuff that people complained about with Flaaayin. I wasn't around for Flaaayin so if it's stuff like the duration of traps - I didn't even get far enough along to really take advantage of that. But before I played Teranek, the helpfile for all the trapper powder skills didn't even mention anything about what they did really - or didn't work properly. If you do a search for instance you'll see me bitching that blister agent only does like 3 injures over 3 hours - then the success rate got boosted quite a bit and the helpfile was adjusted to mention that it can stop spellcasting and stuff like that.

Jaguab is the mother-####ing man though.

Just useful. For what it's worth, I think you're looking for guaranteed kills - or at least I got that impression with your comments about drag. If drag/shadow drag worked 100% when perfected, I could knock someone out and drag them into a myriad of 'cannot escape from' sorts of locations and they'd be pretty much guaranteed to die.

Dropping someone's morale is useful, depending on how much you can drop. If you could drop say, -50 morale, it'd be borderline overpowered. If it drops -5 morale its useless.

But based on the effects, it *might* be useful. That's all I'm saying.

...or is it a dwarven ribcage?

Seriously, kudos for transparency.

Despair does not lower strength.

I tested the others and they do reduce the relevant stats, but despair doesn't. Can you please take a look at it?

EDIT: I looked a bit more carefully and it seems it lowers a different stat. Posted in on bug-board.

>Despair: victim loses strength, defenses become worse, loses morale

Misinfo. Victim doesn't lose strength.

And I based a lot of my build on the assumption that you could sap strength with hypnotize.

Hundreds or hours wasted, another character down the trash bin.

I can't even find words to describe how mad I am about this :(

Despair actually drops charisma, not strength, sorry for the error.