I was just reading a battlefield post by Baear and she mentioned something about a (granted, particularly bad/ill suited) character not seeing Maran until sometime after 100 hours. I only speak for myself, but I can't play a Maran until this policy is changed. Honestly, if I can't get into a cabal full on by the mid 30's (which is at worst 60 hours for me), I'm just not going to bother. I'm not saying this particular character deserved better, but it highlighted an issue in my mind I've been mulling over a while and am using it as a starting point.

Are the Maran powers really so sick that a non-hero character shouldn't have them?

Is the bar set at the right place is only a few characters a year make Maran per-hero (I didn't look up any stats, this is my feeling of it though).

Honestly, I'm powergamey, I like winning, and playing a goodie is always tough for me to justify because it puts restrictions on my behavior and limits my pk range in ways I don't particularly enjoy. That said, I'm pretty sure that the Fort needs a few more of my type and a lot less of the perpetual Fort players who tend to get steamrolled unless they're traveling in groups of 4+ (and sometimes even then).

It is my recommendation that the bar for Maran be lowered significantly. Not in the necessarily in the RP department, or so much that people are are playing fire giants in storm giant suits get full maran'd with questionable behavior, but enough that someone like me, with a modicum of pk-ability and enough sense not to break hard and fast align rules isn't going to be a hero with protection from evil as my only cabal power.

This might sound whiney, I'm not sure, but it isn't my intention. I'm not currently playing a goodie (or anything else for that matter), but I'd like to... once in a while, but the investment vs reward seems to be off. Feel free to tell me how I'm wrong as any discussion is better than silence.

>I was just reading a battlefield post by Baear and she
>mentioned something about a (granted, particularly bad/ill
>suited) character not seeing Maran until sometime after 100
>hours. I only speak for myself, but I can't play a Maran
>until this policy is changed.

I can't see you playing a Maran period. I dare you. :P

I typically get held to an unfairly high standard for Maraning based on who I am and my inability to hide characters from Baer. The rest of y'all don't have any reason to bitch.

.

I should have stayed single so I could pwn your face with Marans. :(

Make sure you hide a pillow and blanket someplace so you have it when you are sleeping on the couch tonight.

I'm totally taking that dare... We'll see how it goes, but if at 100 hours I'm not a Maran, that character is going bye bye most likely in a hurry.

Then you're already setting yourself up to fail.

Strange coincidence that you posted it in the space between when I read Tac's reply to Daevryn and refreshed the whole page.

I realize the powers are the gay and if you're doing your job right you don't need #### all any of the actual powers to rack up evil killcounts, but that doesn't assauge the fact that maybe, just maybe, people who don't make maran should probably be removed from the cabal just to stop feeding them illusions about what their goals should be while stuck as a squire for 400 some-odd hours. Because that's what they're usually looking at.

Just give them the chance to delete or just stop being obligated to waste CON on the cabal if you're not going to Maran them. And for god sakes do it within 200 hours.

I already said that I'm going to start trying to Maran earlier because it seems that's what people want me to do. I've already made it clear anyone is welcome to come and RP with me about what I expect from a Maran. There's no reason not to do this in game.

At this point you people are arguing just to argue.

that those asking to be maraned earlier are, in general, those who will get a competitive advantage out of the change.

In the case of those characters who regularly play fort, or cabals that have much the same enemies as fort, it is akin to lottery players asking to have a higher payout ratio.

what kind of impact do you think maran'ing people considerably more quickly will have on the experience of ap's and necros?

There will be no white flag above my door. - Dido

I didn't say it would be THAT much earlier. Honestly, I don't think an average of 70 hours is out of line, though when I looked back at all of the Fortress characters I've played I've always been advanced in 50-60. Well, "All" sounds like a lot, but in reality there's only been three that I've played long enough to have been advanced. Only one of those was actually a Maran, and I was playing a dwarf, so with Aarn that was like cheating. ;)

The other thing I think it bears noting with this argument is that some of it depends on how weak or strong the cabal is at a given time. If there are a lot of Maran, I think the bar naturally rises a little, and lowers if the cabal is weak in #s. This is especially true if I feel like I need a leader and I see someone that I think has good potential for it. I want to advance them along and get all the leader use out of them that I can before they burn out. See Enrai.

Instead of using "hours as squire" as a metric (not the only metric, but one you're using) you might try to come up with ballpark "achievement" metrics based on each class, and maybe level range.

Like, if you squire a shield paladin at 25 and then he ranks to 40, what sort of PK record should he have accumulated in order to get Maran? What about a felar assassin? Human thief? Etc.

You'd need to take into account specializations like thief paths, paladin dedications, warrior specs, etc. Also the character's gank-o-meter. The PKs aren't as impressive if they're just the result of the guy being ganky. Also special cases where a person might get inducted as a hero (where it's harder to amass PKs).

So then, if a character kicks butt and meets your requirement in less time than normal, maybe he makes Maran early. (Assuming his RP is also up to snuff).

On the other hand if after some "reasonable" amount of time, a character still hasn't met the PK requirement, maybe he has to keep chugging along as a Squire until he does.

(I realize this doesn't work for Acolytes, since PK isn't one of their priorities.)

At least, I sure try to!

Baer, I've already said before that I like you. Arguing aside, I think what really needs to be seen is a middle tier between squire and maran, scribe and acolyte.

For the most part, I know that when I play evil Outlanders, I can just sit outside the Fortress and pick off Squires/Scribes like candy, but Marans I actually have to look out for. A middle tier would serve the purpose of mending the gap between underpowered and overpowered, and stop some of our whining.

Also, letting the mortal leadership hand this out would actually give the leadership something to do in a proactive way. Why can't a Captain or Marshall promote men he feels have fought hard for the Light but haven't received the recognition from the immortals?

>For the most part, I know that when I play evil Outlanders, I
>can just sit outside the Fortress and pick off Squires/Scribes
>like candy, but Marans I actually have to look out for.

Is this because of the difference between Maran and Squire powers, or because the Marans are actually better players, have better gear, etc.?

>Why can't a Captain or Marshall promote men he feels have
>fought hard for the Light but haven't received the recognition
>from the immortals?

Because a mortal leader can't see your PK ratio. He can't see your gank-o-meter. He can't see how many hours you're logging a day. Etc.

Mortal leaders can and should make recommendations for promotion, based on their limited perspective. Baer probably takes these into account when deciding whether to promote someone.

Zulg was kind enough to add EPK tiers on to members for me. So, leaders can see who hasn't killed an evil yet and work with them, or who's got a lot of EPK's and whatnot. Not exactly by any means, and it doesn't tell you how many deaths that guy took to get there...but it is helpful.

That said, I'm not comfortable with leader promotions period.

Awww,

No massive army of cry of deliverence style slaughter? In all seriousnes, I don't see a problem with the current promotion routine. The thing about fortress, and good chars in general is the strict RP requirements and do's/dont's associated with playing a goodie. People always say Evil's are harder to play, and I have always disagree'd having been on the evil side of the fence for five years between my "goodies". Anyways, if people are just looking for a handout of pk power, they should roll ragers. I love ragers, they are like the lazy man's Cabal. Free dam redux/big damage boost is hot ;)

-Sarien

I would submit, sir, that the ease with which you pick of a squire/scribe as opposed to the difficulty with a Maran may be more related to that person's overall skill (which may be exactly WHY they are still a squire) rather than the neat Maran powers.

I mean, unless you're packing only flaming weaponry, are an invoker who refuses to use anything but quicksand and fire spells, or are a warrior who trips the everliving #### out of everything that walks by....what exact power does a Maran have that makes an evil outlander go "Whoa, better avoid trying to lay the smack down on that guy."

To me, it'd be more likely that you have to be careful about laying the smack down on a squire/scribe if there is a skilled enough Maran on, who might cry in to help, no?

I mean let's look at the Maran powers:
eyes of flame - no help against evil outlander, period.
mantle - fly is nice for trippers/quicksand, but it can still be dispelled, so...the fire thing is good too, but like I said, I don't think it's a dealbreaker against evil outlander.
lightforge - they have nice weapons. I had nicer pre-Maran with my most recent Fortie. *shrug*
zeal - c'mon. Zeal? Really? THAT is what's causing your evil outlander to be scared of a Maran?

Nah. It's the skill factor of the player involved. And that directly reflects the judgement of Maran-worthy. Most of the Maran you would avoid would probably be just as scary if they were "only a squire". At least in your example, evil outlander.

As a goodie leader, I'd feel strongly compelled to promote people quickly if I thought it would increase their chances of killing evil (since this is the driving rp purpose of the cabal), or (and this would be a far stronger motivation for me) would help them avoid getting their asses handed to them.

I mean, if it's YOUR choice to freely hand out to your homeboy fighting at your side a longsword +1 or the Flaming Vorpal Sword of Pwn +3, it's kind of a no-brainer.

It behooves them to promote their allies in order to make their own life easier. Essentially there's a bias.

In Empire, the same is true, but it is countered with the risk of being betrayed/overthrown, and also people get demoted if they mess up.

Can you see fortress demoting? Other than Graatch?

>It behooves them to promote their allies in order to make
>their own life easier. Essentially there's a bias.

This is exactly why Empire has caps on how many Elites there can be. That same is not true within the Fortress.

You'd see one of those ballparks.

When the cabal is strong, I think higher standards should be required.

It's one thing I found frustrating when getting steamrolled by huge fortress gangs... that they were always in power, and yet largely tatted, multiple virtued etc.

I'm much less bothered by that if it is the underdogs getting the nice stuff.

I was thinking that the tatting/virtue side of things feels much more balanced now than it felt about 6 months ago.

I agree there should be a feedback mechanism if a squire is not performing at a level that will eventually get them promoted to maran.

That said, you're exaggerating the problem. Most of the people who delete as squires didn't wait as long as it took for eventual-leader-characters to get promoted. And presumably those eventual leaders were "good squires".

He posted a compiled set of hours for induction, time-to-Maran, and perma-Squire in this thread. You are wasting that effort and people's time by making up your own grossly exaggerated timelines.

Personally, I think this thread is rather interesting because it got me, at least, to think about the average time to Elite status in Empire. By and large, it looks like "time to Elite" is the same or on average greater than "time to Maran." I still like Empire's powers better than Maran, but I found that informing to this topic.

I'm still working on figuring out "real-time spent as a squire". Then I'll compute "game hours" and "real-time spent" for Imperials, from the point at which they were oath'd to the point when they made Elite.

I'm attaching CSV files for Fortress and Empire. For Fortress, I calculated "real time" between induction and Maran, or between induction and deletion for people who didn't make Maran. I also calculated "hours played per day" while a squire.

For Empire it's not possible to get "character hours" for each promotion, so I couldn't compute the number of game hours between Oath and Elite. I did, however, compute "real time" between Oath and Elite. I didn't bother to consider people who never made Elite.

Here's the summary:

Days spent as a Squire for those who eventually made Maran:

Min: 5.6 (Kernagor)
Median 15.1
Max: 58.9 (Angaarn)

If you throw out Angaarn, the next highest was surprisingly Iltanthal, who spent 30.5 days as a squire averaging 3.4 hours/day. After him comes Llondolis, who spent 21.2 days as a squire averaging 4.6 hours/day. Both those characters were leaders.

Side note on Kernagor: dude played 14.1 hours/day over that 5.6 day period. That's insane. Tanith wasn't far behind. If you throw out those two, then a couple of people (Enrai and Quiltell) did it in 9 days while logging a "reasonable" number of hours per day.

So I'd say a realistic range for a character that's playing a normal number of hours per day is around 9 to 21 days as a squire.

Days spent between Oath and Elite for those who eventually made Elite:

Min: 3.4 (Eleia)
Median: 20.5
Max: 69.0 (Sarouv)

Here it should be noted that Sarouv is not necessarily an outlier. After him are Carintsei (63.2), Chirikaw (57.7), Rikkiri (56.2) and Clissa (45.7).

The next shortest after Eleia were Klurak (9.4), Opoj (9.7) and Zridv (12.9). Notably, Kostyan spent 21.1 days and Eoria 31.4.

Based on this, 10 days is a reasonable lower limit on "Oath to Elite", but it could take up to ~30 days even if you're performing at Eoria-like levels.

Seriously. I came into this thread with one set of assumptions and am leaving with an entirely different perspective. I would have to take time to think about this, but offhand, this appears to be a case where the perception greatly differs from the reality. I think if you asked Scrimbul/Baron/etc. if the time to Maran/perma-Squire-rage-deletion was greater than the time from bloodoath to Elite, all of them would say absolutely.

Maybe the perception is colored by the fact that Squire to Maran does not have a staged progression - so players feel as though they're languishing even though they're on a faster track than imperials.

One other factor that works in the Imperial's favor is that it's really easy to get Oath'd early on.

So the time between when a player decides "I want to join Empire" and when he gets Oath'd is going to be less, on average, than the time between when a player decides "I want to be a Maran" and when gets inducted into Fortress.

So the Squire-to-Maran progression may seem longer by comparison because it is prefaced by a non-insignificant Applicant-But-Not-Even-A-Squire-Yet phase.

For Empire the Wannabe-But-Not-An-Oath-Yet phase is virtually non-existent. Whenever you're ready to Oath, you can probably find someone to Oath you.

Mon Apr 30 17:42:15 2007 at level 35 (70 hrs):
Baerinika made Queliryon a Maran

Level 35 is late huh?

Not sure if it's apropriate to post, but here goes anyways (imms delete please if it's not.)

lvl 38 as lvl requirement.
You have to present the chancellor with proof that you can aquire enough protective means to take on groups. For example a warrior should show off: stone skin, shield, aura, covering vulns etc etc. Though I believe that stone, shield and aura would be enough. Can't say for sure though.
Add to that all the stuff you need to know from the Lyceum, and some stuff you need to know that you won't find in the Lyceum. Add the needed recomendations to that and it can be quite hard. (For a newbie close to impossible.)

(Yeah, I know, Scion ain't a newbie friendly cabal. heh)

Ofc, if you have the game knowledge, you'll get inducted in a wiff. But that's the same with every other cabal I'd say. ^^

(I'm not complaining, to survive as a Scion you do need to be quite kickass I'd say.)

I also found Battle induction to be a much bigger pain in the butt than getting into Fortress.

Then again, when you get into Battle you immediately get all the goodies, so becoming a rager should be more difficult than becoming a squire.

But then I've had to get reccs for Fort too, and that's really the part that sucks about trying to get into Battle (IMHO). Battle interviews at least usually only suck up 30 minutes or so of my playtime. I've had 2 hour interviews with Fort people that weren't leaders.... Then they dropped link. RBW's don't usually talk for that long :p

I'm sure somewhere there's a battle character who has spent fifty hours of game time without full battle powers, but you'll have to spend a lot of time looking to find one.

Yes, playing a battle app sucks a lot harder than playing a fort app. But fortie apps/squires tend to spend 3x as long waiting for one fourth of the power boost that battle apps get upon induction. Bleh.

Kehade basically wrote a note and talked to Waris and then got inducted by the chancellor. It isn't always that hard. Plus scion powers are sick and gross.

Though as Kreo I didn't get in. ^^ Screwed up my deceiving plan to join... So my own fault. hehe

Back when Leika and Gareth were inducting, and there were very, very few maran, you had to really shine to get inducted, and as shokai put it "at some point, killing trollocs just doesn't cut it". It wasn't quite as exclusive as Scarab or Ehren Guard, but it was close.

Then, to make it a bit more far, the maran/squire system went in, and the only people made maran were the exceptional ones that would have eventually gotten in under the prior system.

So, that concept of having to shine somewhat, to get maraned still exists. Is it past it's heyday, and time to be a bit more far on making folks maran, maybe? Numbers are pretty low.

Maybe a 4 tier system instead of the current three tier, more like empire? Give the base powers at maran pretty freeely, come up with a minor perk to give out at Knight (or whatever you want to name the rank)
- Squire
- Maran
- Knight
- Leadership position (Marshall/Captain)

I like to think of it this way:

If Fortress powers are such crap, which people argue they are, then it's no big deal if I fail to get inducted until 70 hours, then don't make maran until 100 hours.

I mean, I'm still out there killing people with approximately the same level of effectiveness as I would *with* maran powers. Only, I don't have to worry about raiding and retrieving.

Now, I don't like that uncaballed mode long-term because it gets boring and you tend to be overlooked by the staff. Just being honest there. But as a temporary thing while I'm waiting to get interviews? Or as a squire waiting for Baer to promote me? Meh. I can handle it.

You were inducted at 100 hours, Maran'd at 170. Did it feel too long or unjust?

I felt like it was fine. But then, I was kind of off doing my own thing.

I like to be scientific about this stuff, so here are "hours at induction" and "hours at maran" stats for all the maran PBFs since Daichyl, who inducted Mizfara. If they never made maran then the second number in parentheses is their hours at deletion:

Hayim: 40, 129
Corticas: 38, (69)
Gralbin: 23, 76
Enrai: 56, 101
Ilvakihj: 14, 119
Illunas: 6, 109
Oraimus: 38, (104)
Kenric: 24, (73)
Catast: 20, (58)
Iaru: 51, (107)
Ilbjorga: 28, (88)
Tanith: 22, 84
Jaisel: 51, 115
Iltanthal: 44, 149
Llondolis: 43, 141
Kernagor: 11, 90
Vyadesh: 33, (94)
Mizfara: 106, 170
Cyruil: 34, 98
Erendinia: 37, 108
Quiltell: 24, 86
Kayella: 43, 94
Jeqo: 111, (152)
Ilirenen: 45, 85
Hiajist: 30, 129
Acvilar: 28, 132
Narclarn: 81, (155)
Angaarn: 64, 235
Laernoch: 28, (145)
Vyborny: 21, (92)
Tondumalanas: 24, 111
Daichyl: 53, 107

Now, with regards to induction, we have no idea when these people sent their notes or actually started trying to get inducted. Mizfara, for instance, waited a long time to do this. But I'll give you stats anyway:

HOURS AT INDUCTION:
Min: 6 hours (Illunas)
Median: 35.5 hours
Max: 111 hours (Jeqo)

The only reason Jeqo took that long is that, in my opinion, he was not cut out to be a Maran. I think most people (other than Jeqo) will agree with me on that. The character with the next highest hours at induction? Mizfara.

TIME SPENT AS A SQUIRE BEFORE MAKING MARAN:
Min: 40 hours (Ilirenen)
Median: 71 hours
Max: 171 (Angaarn)

Interestingly, Ilirenen (Warren) also got on some peoples' nerves. And yet he still made maran super-quick. Angaarn was well-liked and well role-played, but it seemed like he died every five minutes. Angaarn is also an outlier; the four highest totals after him are all around 105 hours.

Basically this tells me the following: If you've been a squire longer than ~110 hours then you can start to think you're doing something wrong. If you haven't been a squire for at least that long then it's probably wrong to ascribe any meaning to it. Witness the fact that Iltanthal, Acvilar and Ilvakihj all spent ~105 hours as squires, and they were all eventually put into leadership positions.

TIME SPENT AS A SQUIRE WITHOUT MAKING MARAN BEFORE DELETING:
Min: 31 (Corticas)
Median: 60
Max: 117 (Laernoch)

As I recall, Laernoch was like Angaarn in that he died every five minutes. The next highest after him was Narclarn at 74 hours. This suggests to me that people just aren't sticking around long enough after being inducted.


Interestingly, here are the squire times for characters that eventually made leader, i.e. they were "doing something right" and generally looked upon favorably by cabal leadership:

Enrai: 45
Ilvakihj: 105
Iltanthal: 105
Llondolis: 98
Mizfara: 64
Cyruil: 64
Acvilar: 104
Daichyl: 54

So 50% of those spent about 100 hours as a squire, including Twist, who theoretically knows what the hell he's doing RP wise. Also witness the difference between Java's two characters, Llondolis and Enrai. Was Enrai that much better of a character? Probably not.

I looked up my two Captain's timelines and:



Iramath: 23, 180 (by Aarn)
Darascus: 29, 135 (by Baerinika)




I've had plenty of other Maran over the years who actually did it much faster. Each of these was atypical because 1) When Iramath was a Squire I think ALL of the Fort Imms were AWOL. I recall praying after every kill after I had hit around 100 hours, and finally I got boosted in Shok's shrine before Aarn had been made public.

With Darascus, I'm attributing the delay to the long downtime around level 38 which every invoker goes through. As soon as I got over that hump, I got in.

I'd be curious to see where Ravenoth and Malur placed in the Squire-to-Maran timeline, but unfortunately neither has a PBF.

I have a character right now. I've put in about 60 hours over the span of close to three months. That's it. I haven't played any other characters in that time, either. Do you think I'm going to stick with a character if I'm not a full member in before 3-6 months?

No, thanks.

Luckily I was inducted into my current cabal in a timely manner. Annoyingly, though, I had to sit my butt at home and take off of work to achieve that. Way uncool. Sure, I could have waited longer and got lucky catching the leader on later or maybe even an immortal, but then that would have delayed actually 'being' the character for much longer. I wouldn't have stuck with it.

You guys throw a hundred hours around like it's nothing. That's six months to me.

It's six months, yeah. But it's also still just 100 hours. Both you and the frequent player are still spending as much time in-game without the goodies. Yours is just stretched over more RL time.

I agree, though, "real time elapsed" would be another way to look at it. If I get inspired I'll go through all those PBFs again and calculate stats for that.

but it seems to me that without comparing to other cabals, it isn't really the same. You might want to take hours to elite for empire (though the fact they can get the lower level powers earlier kind of skews that) and just hours to induction for all the rest. I'm guessing that the kind of time investment it take to play a Fort to full Maranation is significantly greater than every other cabal. That might be something to consider on the funstick.

Sun Dec 18 14:22:36 2005 at level 51 (288 hrs):
Inducted into FORTRESS by Alriac.

What felt unfun and unjust was the one month "we're closed"-period of the Fortress where talking to leaders resulted to nothing, as Fort simply wasn't inducting squires, with people in charge simply saying "Halls are full". Never again.

Now, I see Outlander Harbinger declare the neutral part of Outlander closed and offer commiserations to all neutral Outlander applicants, I'm glad I'm not one of you right now.

Makes sense.

But although Maran powers are "crap" relative to imperial/scion powers, I think it stings to stay at Squire for a long period of time as a matter of self-perception. It could be my own attitude, but when I'm a squire, I feel as though I'm in competition with 10 other loud-mouthed squires, and only 3-4 of us are going to make Maran. So we're all competing to go out and out-do each other with regard to Maranly things and make sure the IMMs notice we're doing it. This makes it semi annoying when other squires brag on cb about ganking down an evil (e.g., "soandso dead.") because then I feel like I have to brag over cb, too, or I'll get ignored while the other guy gets promoted. This makes it semi-difficult to avoid insane retrieval attempts because the other guy is gung-ho and pushing to show how courageous he is. The perpetual state of competition only ends when my char gets Maran'd, at which point I can relax and enjoy the cabal a bit. Kind of like a grade school teacher getting tenure. Anyway, I definitely feel that competitive environment and I can understand why it would start to get frustrating as the hours pile on and you're still in it.

Huh. Never thought of it like that. I sometimes announce on cb when I kill someone, but not always. Mainly I just do the same stuff I was doing before being inducted, and assume that eventually I'll be noticed and maran'd.

It's not like imms can't check your PK kills and gank-o-meter. So while announcing stuff on cb may impress your mortal cabal mates, it shouldn't affect the outcome of whether you get maran'd.

...I'd say that if you are as PKtastic as you make yourself sound in your above post, in the 60ish hours that you'd spend making it to the mid-30's, you'd probably have become a skilled and somewhat feared hunter, amassing a solid pkwin/loss ratio and would be a fairly respected member of the Fort.

And if all of the above were met, you'd probably have no problem getting Maranated.

I do know how to bash, so I'm at least as proficient as you :P That was a joke, in case it doesn't translate in text, based on your saying you can't seem to pk without bash.

I don't think I'm a pk god, but I know I'm better than most. I can usually amass a solid pk ratio in 60 hours (depending on class), but that doesn't mean that I'll get maran'd by then. Would I be a squire? Sure. That's never been a problem, but say I get squire at 20 hours and level 20... That would mean I'd have to essentially rank sit to get maran'd by the 30's. Note: If I'm at 60 hours at level 30ish, it probabbly means I spent 25-30+ hours pre level 15 or 20 doing practicing or something.

All I'm really saying is that the payoff, gameplay wise and not rp wise, for playing a fortie just isn't there for me. I can have more fun, in less time, with less hastle as just about any other cabal.

Fort is pretty noob-based, noob-friendly, all except the Maraning part.

Since this same subject comes up over and over and over, don't you think, instead of trying to defend the exact same stance time and again, you should maybe look for a better system?

Never had the patience for a Maran. I'll get to 100 hours with a character with 30-70 hours as a Fort member and not get it, and by that time, it's just a waste of my time.

Maran powers should not be "icing on the cake". They should, in part, just be a part of the cake.

It's not just PK-based, or the 80%+ of squires who aren't very good at PK would NEVER make Maran, and history shows that most of them ultimately do.

Or, let's say, it's not just success in PK-based... but a squire who isn't interested in actually fighting evil won't be a Maran and probably shouldn't even be a squire.

You can't get to Emperor/Sect Leader before 40 if left to mortal hands (and most of those don't get it until hero). The Immortlas of course can intervene, but I tend to let it play out more at the player level these days.

I think both Empire & Fortress work just fine as they are. Just my $0.02.

I've enjoyed empire most of the times I've played it. It's practically impossible to not get inducted any time you want, donating and not being a ####tard tends to get rewarded by your sect leader (if they play during your times, somewhat less so if you are waiting on imm or emperor promotions). Honestly, making elite isn't that difficult to do by level 40 or so and that is where I'd say the powers are equal (at least) to Maran powers.

Bloodoath is, in my mind, equivalent to being a squire. It's a big fat target (minus the title) without any real benefit. How long do people stay bloodoaths?

Fort might work fine, just not necessarily fine for me, and I'm willing to accept that, but that doesn't mean I won't periodically try to push things more in my direction.

Maybe you should look up Fortress vs. Empire (class vs. class where applicable). Check out the times where powers played a factor vs. where they didn't in the pk.

Fort Squires and Acolytes are hamstrung for a LONG time until the imms get off their ass to change their status. They obviously do not work "just fine", otherwise this wouldn't keep coming up.

Seriously, you imms are the most deluded, Republican-like group of people I've ever read.

>Maybe you should look up Fortress vs. Empire (class vs. class
>where applicable). Check out the times where powers played a
>factor vs. where they didn't in the pk.

I don't even understand what you're asking so...no I guess I haven't crunched "the numbers"

>Fort Squires and Acolytes are hamstrung for a LONG time until
>the imms get off their ass to change their status. They
>obviously do not work "just fine", otherwise this wouldn't
>keep coming up.

Squires & Acolytes are the equivalent of Imperial Citizens (not bloodoaths like everyone keeps saying). As for it being obvious they do not work just fine...maybe that's because you feel entitled to everything up front and that is not how this particular set of cabals work.

>Squires & Acolytes are the equivalent of Imperial Citizens

Note: I forget how the tiers are counted, so I'm going to call bloodoaths Tier0 and count up from there.

I'd compare Squires and Acolytes to Tier1 or Tier2 sect members, and Marans to Tier3. This in terms of difficulty, not "strength of powers".

For the Squire, the difficulty is actually getting into the cabal. Doing interviews, finding the leader online, etc. For the sect member, the difficulty is just taking the time to gather all that gold.

For the Maran, the difficulty is putting in the "squire time" and getting noticed by Baer. For the sect member, the difficulty is convincing your sect leader you're worthy of one of his limited Tier3 slots. Also, catching your sect leader (or the Emperor) online so you can actually be promoted.

If we compare Squires to Tier1 or Tier2 sect members, then the gap in powers isn't so bad. Same thing for Maran vs. Tier3.

We should also consider characters in Empire that are "blocked" by someone above them? If there's a long-lived sect leader above me, then my Elite guy could spend 200-300 hours stuck at Elite. That seems infinitely worse than having to wait ~70 hours as a squire before getting Maran.

It looks roughly close to time to Maran from the couple of PBFs I looked at.

See my post above.

But allllll my bloodoaths have had better PK ratios than my squires. And centurions is a better cabal support skill than all the acolyte powers combined.

The only advantages a squire has over an oath, in my opinion, is the lack of title and an easier time ranking up.

>But allllll my bloodoaths have had better PK ratios than my
>squires. And centurions is a better cabal support skill than
>all the acolyte powers combined.

Not sure why you're comparing squires to bloodoaths since bloodoaths aren't actually even in the cabal unlike a Squire. A better comparison is Citizen.

>The only advantages a squire has over an oath, in my opinion,
>is the lack of title and an easier time ranking up.

And a cabal that is likely more willing to help you out than stab you in the back.

How much serious, heavy-duty backstabbing actually goes on? I've only had an imperial priest up to level 32 or so.

Is it a real concern of the cabal? Or would I only need to think about it if there was an excellent rp'er playing one of the sect leaders or Emperor? The impression I got in my *very* short time was that the main challenge of Empire was to not say something idiotic to give a higher-up cause to be pissed at you and to be generally competent regarding raids/retrievals/donations.

From everything I've seen (ie. experience seeing people go from bloodoath to Elite or even sect leader in a very short amount of time) could get by with getting together a good set, kiss the Emperor/sect leader's ass with a minimum of rp, get some pks rolling, bam! Elite. I still need to play an Imperial to hero and experience it for myself, however.

But, back to my original question: how much backstabbing with serious consequences actually goes on?

>But, back to my original question: how much backstabbing with
>serious consequences actually goes on?

My opinion... not much at the lower echelons, more as you get higher. Often you're in a position where the only way to move up is get rid of someone else.

Without going into a whole story involving active characters, the whole thing that went down around Nererial not too long ago might be a good example story.

Yeah, but that was Nererial's choice. He could have not shown that ambition and not paid the price.

What would be more supportive of the claim that "a lot of backstabbing goes on" would be if Nererial had succeeded in what he was trying to accomplish.

It's generally possible to get onto the council without backstabbing anyone if you just bide your time.

When playing Hunsobo, I promoted folks really as fast as I could, if they "didn't suck."

Which meant once a day, I could promote someone.

So, do I use that one promotion I get today on Shadow Dweller #47 who, while not saying idiotic stuff and is generally competant, is not really all that useful to me at hero levels? Or do I promote the duergar warrior who is currently at level 43 from Blade to Elite, because in a couple days having a groupmate who has the Elite skillset will behoove me?

Now throw in that Shadow Dweller #47 lets slip that the duergar warrior applied to Scion earlier in life. Oh ho, really? I get confirmation, promote the shadow, and the blade ends up anathed.

Now granted, in this case, it's something that the duergar blade did to himself that got him backstabbed, but it is also something that could have been covered up until he'd proven himself too valuable to punish for it...

And that's just one example.

>But allllll my bloodoaths have had better PK ratios than my
>squires.

Of course. :) Bloodoaths have 'get to be evil', which is generally the best PK ratio boosting ability in the entire game.

>And centurions is a better cabal support skill than
>all the acolyte powers combined.

While I think centurions is a great cabal support skill, I don't agree with this. That being said, it's rare that I see an Acolyte that really uses them to half their potential.

But hell, even the lowly favor of the sun provides not-insignificant DR + stuff to allies.