From Quests, Area Entry, Edges etc. Roles are still non-mandatory, so much like I shouldn't (and don't) have to pay $$ to get certain gear, quests, etc, I shouldn't have to pay in role entries for access to same. Yes, Role isn't the only source of Imm XP, but it is the primary source and below certain levels (mostly hero) it is damn near impossible to get Imm XP for anything other than a role entry, but there are low level quests that require it.

I'm ok with some stuff (quest forms, quest edges, etc) being only attainable directly by an Imm setting them... I'm just not as ok with my no role character not having access to the same stuff that another character has access to just because they got some Imm XP (most likely from a role). It's not that I mind writing them, I just don't want them to be required.

I don't think I'll succeed here, but I'm still trying to ask. Nicely. (see by putting the "Nicely" at the end I'm hoping any other tone you garnered from my post is neutralized)

p.s. Make shifter forms Choo-Choo Choosable There, now I've broken all the rules.

>From Quests, Area Entry, Edges etc. Roles are still
>non-mandatory, so much like I shouldn't (and don't) have to
>pay $$ to get certain gear, quests, etc, I shouldn't have to
>pay in role entries for access to same. Yes, Role isn't the
>only source of Imm XP, but it is the primary source and below
>certain levels (mostly hero) it is damn near impossible to get
>Imm XP for anything other than a role entry, but there are low
>level quests that require it.

There is one set of quests tied to one areas entry which isn't usually open that requires Imm XP.

Less than 2% (17 of 854) edges require Imm XP (and of those 6 are for empowerment classes only which easily gain the required amount).

And that's it. I'm not sure what other quests you think require it, but a quick scan of the code says you're wrong.

>I don't think I'll succeed here, but I'm still trying to ask.
>Nicely. (see by putting the "Nicely" at the end I'm hoping
>any other tone you garnered from my post is neutralized)

And I really don't think you lose out on anything necessary by not writing a role (I don't write them very often with my characters either).

>p.s. Make shifter forms Choo-Choo Choosable There, now
>I've broken all the rules.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

>There is one set of quests tied to one areas entry which isn't
>usually open that requires Imm XP.

Yea, I know, and my character age died like a chump after some very minimal exploring and now I have to figure out how to get back in with a character that can actually explore it before it closes. Imm XP is a barrier to that which I don't want

>Less than 2% (17 of 854) edges require Imm XP (and of those 6
>are for empowerment classes only which easily gain the
>required amount).

So remove it from the other 11?

>And that's it. I'm not sure what other quests you think
>require it, but a quick scan of the code says you're wrong.

Copper dragonscale sleeves.

>>p.s. Make shifter forms Choo-Choo Choosable There, now
>>I've broken all the rules.
>
>

So that's a yes due to Ralf Wiggum reference?

>>Less than 2% (17 of 854) edges require Imm XP (and of those
>6
>>are for empowerment classes only which easily gain the
>>required amount).
>
>So remove it from the other 11?

I'd be more inclined to remove them from being choosable, and leave them as Immortal rewards.

>>And that's it. I'm not sure what other quests you think
>>require it, but a quick scan of the code says you're wrong.
>
>Copper dragonscale sleeves.

I'll take a look.

>>>p.s. Make shifter forms Choo-Choo Choosable There, now
>>>I've broken all the rules.
>>
>>
>
>So that's a yes due to Ralf Wiggum reference?

That's where I saw the leprechaun. He told me to burn things.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

>Copper dragonscale sleeves.

It's not a high bar to clear.

Edit: And to expound on that:

People like different things about the game. To some degree we try to cater to each of them. The flipside to this is that there are probably things that are not achieveable or at least are very hard for any given player. A really poor or uninspired roleplayer is probably not making High Herald. A player who isn't interested in PK is probably not going to make Maran. A player who can only play a couple hours per month probably can't become or stay Emperor. A player who doesn't do much bartering or selling can't get commerce skills.

And, along those lines, there may be the odd quest or edge you just cannot get. There are quests that key off skills people could choose to practice and don't. There are quests that key off kinds of XP you may not have. There are quests that key off PK success. This is one more example of that kind and I don't feel inclined to cater to players who want to skip that requirement any more than I feel inclined to let the players who just want to roleplay a badass paladin but not participate in PK be Captain of the Maran. There's other stuff for you (whoever you are) and there's stuff that's maybe not for you.

I'm more or less exactly aware of how high a bar it is. I'm capable of utilizing them with any character I care to write even a decent role for.

What I don't understand is the purpose of these being imm xp only. It seems an obfuscation (like entering a certain area requires imm xp) designed almost purely to make them vet only. That probably isn't the goal, and they aren't so awesome that it should matter, but what is the point of this one low level quest and quest reward being imm xp required?

I actually pseudo support the requirement on the area, if it is open all the time. Since the time is now limited, I'd prefer the requirement be removed, but it is your area.

Thief with 120 points and thief with 100 points are basically 2 totally different classes. One class can choose 1 path and few extra skills, another class can choose combination of 2 different paths. I am sure many people have thought about many different thief combinations they want to try out, but it looks simply unrealistic to get 3500 imm exp to become that second class with 2 paths. It is damn near impossible to get Imm XP for anything other than a role entry for me too. It will simply take days of real time for ESL player to get 3500 imm exp for roles. (500-1000 for the first one and then about 300 for every 2 role chapters) And instead of playing CF you have to become writer in real life.

Maybe it's also worth it to increase the cost of devious versality and maybe even for some time the balance overall will be changed a bit because many new thiefs could be born suddenly after this change.


Another one is champion of man. The extra argument here is that it's simply unlogical to have imm expp requirement for such edge.

>Thief with 120 points and thief with 100 points are basically
>2 totally different classes. One class can choose 1 path and
>few extra skills, another class can choose combination of 2
>different paths. I am sure many people have thought about many
>different thief combinations they want to try out, but it
>looks simply unrealistic to get 3500 imm exp to become that
>second class with 2 paths. It is damn near impossible to get
>Imm XP for anything other than a role entry for me too. It
>will simply take days of real time for ESL player to get 3500
>imm exp for roles. (500-1000 for the first one and then about
>300 for every 2 role chapters) And instead of playing CF you
>have to become writer in real life.

If we wanted every thief to get 120 points, we'd give them 120 points. If you're building a character that needs 120 points chances are you're going to be disappointed.

Another argument to just remove it from being choosable, and leave it as an Immortal reward.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

And it means there are maybe only ten or so people who will ever have the chance to play better version of thief. However any of them can do it every time whenever they wish to. It is the same about shapeshifters, paladins, warriors and so on.

The question was if we can have an exception. But No then No, we get it.

I really think that it would make the thief class more enjoyable, and at the same time make people with DV stand out more. 10 or 20 more points is a pretty huge deal for a thief.

I'm not sure where you got 3500 from but I can't figure out any angle by which that number would be correct.

I think someone on Dio's suggested it was 500 1000 2000 imm xp each time you wanted to take it, or 1500 2000. Those numbers were almost certainly made up, but that is where they are coming from I think.

Nope. If you can take it, from there on it's only edge points.

Its cost doubles each time you take it. It is even theoretically possible to take it three times.

Playing hundreds of hours just to have a slight chance to test it out in game and find exact numbers doesn't sound like a good plan nowdays, we all got a bit older and lazier/have less time.

To my knowledge, anything with am Imm xp requirement requires 2k imm xp. Yes, the easiest way to get that is role xp, but I've certainly gained it by other means as well. 1500 xp for my first batch of role entries seems pretty typical for me if I actually put a moderate amount of effort and creativity into it. That leaves 500 to go. Sometimes I meet that with a second entry. More typically, I have my character pursue a religion with an easy to interact with Imm, and get the 500 from one good interaction. Then I explore the crap out of lots of tough areas as early as possible, as well as some very easy areas with lots of stuff to see. And as soon as I'm high enough level to take the edge, I knock it down twice and never have enough points to choose another edge for the rest of my char's life.

...if I just kept my dang finger out of there.

Ralph Wiggum for Emperor!