So recently on the Discord a discussion came up, that I think would make for a good discussion here.

Currently, you can use the count command and it will show you how many users there are currently online, and how many of them you can see.

I think this is a detriment to the game, and a massive disadvantage to hiding classes, camo classes, even invisible classes. It is an inherent OOC way for you to know weather it is safe to raid, to defend, and it by default causes people to behave a certain way when their character should have no idea if that assassin is still around to stalk them, that ranger to ambush them, that thief to steal from them, and so on.

Finding out if someone is hidden, camo, etc should be an IC thing. You want to know? Ask an assassin, ask a thief, ask a ranger, and hope they don't lie to you. I think the count command and knowing how many players are online that you cannot see is a clear disadvantage to any class with a way to shroud themselves, it will cause people to be overly cautious and maybe even avoid activities that would put themselves in any danger until they can type count and be sure there is no danger to them.

What are the chances we can get that command removed? Let the hiders hide, the rangers roam, the mages become invisible and so forth. You shouldn't know if there is some unseen threat lurking around by using an ooc game command. I think it is bad for the game and bad for the mechanics of CF as a hole. I think a lot of players would agree with me, and I hope we can have a discussion or perhaps some immortal input on possibly getting this changed and removed so the game has a feeling of danger and excitement again from always having to expect the unexpected.

Removal of this command would cause majority of the players to play assassins, thieves and duergars.


> Count
> There are 2 players in the game.
>
> who
> <27 Duerg A-P> Namehere the Scum
> <41 Duerg War> Secondplayername the Warrior Hero

Going to be soooo crazy fun to play this game.



Unless there will be a source of detect hidden roots/scrolls/wands/items. And detect camou, to balance this nonsense.

Therans are known to be telepathic, and it's related to eyesight.

You can telepathically speak with anyone at a distance, and just know it's "someone" if they are hidden.

If you can see people, you can telepathically know they are somewhere in Thera. If they are in the same area, you can know exactly where they are.

If you can't see people, you can still telepathically sense that they are awake, but you have no idea who or where they are.

It seems more IC that you can vaguely sense that someone exists more than some other stuff. Why is it that you can't sense someone outside the east gate if you are one step away at the eastern crossroads, but you can sense someone at the western crossroads all the way across town? (I don't really care, just an example.)

Anything that happens, you can think of a way to make it IC, if you want to. You can also think of away to make it OOC, if you want to.

Unless CF player behavior has changed dramatically, I think it is odd you think removal of count would somehow make people less cautious. The less information you have as a player, the more cautious you have to be, because not doing so would just be stupid given the cost of dying can be so high.

You are also focusing solely on the enjoyment of people who play stealth classes. As if dealing with stealth classes is so very fun for people who can't see them, or that they like being assassinated, jumped and robbed or attacked while ranking, or being perma lagged to death by bearcharge.

Even if I know there are people around, I still can't see them. That's still a huge advantage to a stealth char. Knowing how many I have to be concerned with is not a bad thing from either player's perspective.

CF thrives and is at its best when there is open conflict. Stealth is a major impediment to that, and always has been. Encouraging it should not be the goal. Who enjoys playing the lone imperial sitting in the palace while the codex is at the tree? He has to assume the outlanders are camping it, or as soon as he logs in that they will go there to wait for him. End result, he sits in the palace for 20 minutes and the outlanders sit at the tree for 20 minutes. Lots of fun. But if that imperial knew there are 20 people on, and he can see 19 of them, maybe he does go, cause those odds are viable.

If I have know way to know at all what danger I'm walking into, why am I going to walk into danger at all?

It was a cool command designed for stats when all the server peak player time features came in.

It wasn’t intended to become a cheesy and abused mechanic to mitigate risk as a universal detect all.

So far the best strawman arguments have been “ why don’t you take away who, tell, and where?” Or “I already hate stealth classes”

Removing the command will... shockingly... make players have to INTERACT with those who can detect. Form alliances, and give the option for subterfuge even if your level 15 ranger/duergar starts getting bombarded.

The game was fine long before the unintended consequences of playerbase command

How is it unintended? It seems to be the exact purpose of the command to show how many are on vs how many you can see.

That's a selective reading of the posts. The main arguments I saw were 1) it will increase people playing these classes to the exclusion of others (less diversity), and 2) it will increase conservative behavior of players. Both of which people would likely say are bad things for CF. The upsides were 3) it's more fun for stealth classes and 4) more player interactions.

I think it's easy to see why the downsides outweigh the upsides.

Nobody likes to play the prey/victim, and in a thera that makes stealth more attractive, more people will play stealth, which means less non stealth targets for the larger pool to hunt. Net loss of fun for all parties. I believe part of the reason people play stealth is to either be the hunter, or to not have to worry about other stealth classes as much.

Knowing that 10 players are on and I can see 8 of them does not mean I have detect all (and I agree with Jhyrbian that it's hard to say it's an unintended consequence when the command has always done this). I still have no idea who they are, or where they are. And that potentially gives me a reason to interact already. You're stifling the availability of information for players to use to make informed choices. That's not a good thing.

Count allows players without detects to make informed decisions about potential risk of their actions. Without even that baseline information of how many people are out there, you really think player behavior is going to get better? Unlikely. Players will likely be more conservative than ever, I know for sure I would have been. Which makes CF a far more boring place.

As to increasing interaction: First, that relies on there being someone you can see that can do the detects for you, second it relies on you being willing to ask them, no goodie is asking a duerg for example, and also it relies on you trusting their response. Finally, players already engage in this exact thing as it is, even with the count command. But removal would almost make this a necessity.

If you have a cabal mate/ally that can do this, they already alert you to stealth enemies and you can always ask them.
With the count command, maybe every time I log in without an ally who has detects I don't have to find the first goodie herald with detect hidden to ask how many people are around before I take a step outside of my guild/cabal.

And as to stealth class player enjoyment. A lot of the enjoyment of stealth is having people to play against that are vulnerable to your biggest strengths. Those players are going to be less and less without the count command.

And lets not pretend players with stealth don't camp, or that stealth abilities don't encourage camping. Chameleon is the worst cabal power in the game for that reason, at least in my opinon.

There's already too many people who play camo/hiding classes. This will just increase that number.

I am for this if who and where were removed as well.

For instance, this like you said caters to the classes that can hide/camo in such a way that it gives them an advantage. You would see a high population growth of rangers/assassins/thieves which would turn the game into hiding/camo fields because nobody wants to always have to be worried about getting assassinated, or 17 outlanders all hiding after raiding Tribunal/Empire.

The count command is sort of a balancing tool I think that makes sure you aren't being suicidal in such issues listed above. Now, perhaps a more modified option is make hiding/camo like duo in a sense where you struggle to see your surroundings, thus balancing it in that regard, or it limits it to like 'scan' distance for where, but you can still see who.

I support this, and I think detect hidden and detect invis also should be removed from the game. Make hide and invisibility great again!

And don't forget to remove "tell" command, because it may be used to detect characters that are logged in.

Full disclosure, I hated thieves/assassins/rangers. They were without fail the most annoying aspect of CF, and I'd say if anything they need to be greatly nerfed, not made stronger.

AS to the count command, I think it serves a purpose. If I have seen a thief assassin vis, I assume they are still around anyway, I don't need a count command for that. And until you see the person on who you don't know who that person you can't see is on the count command anyway.

There are just WAY too many advantages to hide/sneak and camo, and count is barely a counter to them. What would be a bad thing in my opinion is people not having any method at all to know what is out there generally, so that players guild/cabal sit or whatever even more so until they know for sure whether they can go out without some thief or assassin sitting there.

Because otherwise I agree with another poster, CF will become ranger/assassin/thief/transmuter/duergar fields even more so than it already was when I was playing.

Stealth classes do very little to make CF an interesting environment. They don't make CF feel dangerous or exciting, they make it boring since what they really do is stifle people from going out and doing almost anything.

Answer this question honestly. Without count, do you truly believe people would play non-stealth classes in a less conservative manner than they already do, or that they would be more inclined to play non-stealth classes? To me, I believe the answer is almost certainly no.

You want to remove count, fine, but in the name of balance take away from the stealth classes too. Make movement while hidden/camo have lag on it such that the thief/assassin can't actually keep up with you if you stay moving. (I'm not sure if creep has lag) Or give every player twitchy, but tone it down slightly. Make playing a thief/assassin/ranger take a bit more skill, instead of relying on stealth to do all the work for them.

Encouraging people to play more stealth classes is just bad. Because while it's fun maybe to play the stealthy hunter, who wants to play their prey?