Battle application process is broken. Short version: too few mages, too many areas, too much invisibility. People seem to be confused about it, too, thinking an applicant can level to 25 and get detect invis so they can get their first kill, but that's reversed, they need the first kill to get to be an official applicant, and then they can get detect invis. But it's extremely difficult now for any class that doesn't see invis to get that kill. It's just a broken system.

But there's good news! There is a simple fix: make it a two step process. It would work like this.

Character that wants to be battle goes to Tahren. Character pledges to battle. Can make it that Tahren asks if they want to dedicate themselves to fighting magic, blah blah blah. Applicant says yes. They then get that temp title "Village Applicant". This does what it already does, which is give them access to truesight at level 25. So if you want to try and wait it out to find your mage kill in the teens, ok, great, but that's on you. If not, you can level up to 25, get detect invis, and level the playing field to give you a decent chance to get your mage kill.

Once you do get a mage kill, you go back to Tahren, he senses the blood (like he does now), and poof! (mechanics) your temp title is now changed to "Blooded Village Applicant". Nothing else changes. All this does is alert leadership (commander, drillmaster, imms) and the world that the char has killed a mage and now is eligible for induction.

This way, you can get that very public "Village Applicant" title, and detect invis, but you can't get in - you can't lie about having a mage kill because you don't have the "Blooded" title. You can try to tough it out in the pre-25 levels to get your kill, or you can get to 25 and use truesight. Up to you.

I see no downside to this, or way to abuse it. If someone decides they want to go and get that "Village Applicant" title with access to detect invis at level 25 - which damages you every time you use it by the way - knock yourself out. Village applicants, in my opinion, are literally the weakest and most vulnerable of all pcs in the game. Doing this gives you all the restrictions of being in the battle cabal - applicants can't use magic, can't use healers, can't use mercs, etc. - but with none of the balancing benefits of being an actual member of battle. And with the title everyone knows you're hunting, and are likewise a target for everyone who fights battle, again, with you having no ability to get damage reduction or other abilities beyond your basic class. And no potions and healers.

Hell, if someone wants to roll up a character that does it, gets the temp title and self-injuring detect invis, but then somehow betrays battle, so they are now the warrior who can never use magic, never use healing, and gets no battle powers, that sounds like an awesome RP challenge for someone far better than me.

I think this is a great idea because it permits people to get the barrier to battle, a mage kill, somewhat within their control, without giving any way to game the system or overpower anyone. All that needs to be done is code the one step process to a two step process with the additional "Blooded Village Applicant" title.

Hopefully you consider, and implement.

Fix the Mob problem so that melee classes don't get demolished by melee because they didn't decide to solo lvl from 1-30. Give mages someone to tank and level with, otherwise most people don't like that "hard mode" of play trying to get to certain levels for their mage class to shine or finally get that "easy stick" melee's get so early and keep for a long time.

Try solo leveling an invoker to lvl 38
Try solo leveling a necro to lvl 25
Try solo leveling a conjurer to 35

Shifter can kind of do it depending on forms solo but is still hard

Transmuters get melee/defense so they don't have to rely on magic so much except for spelling themselves up.

You melee assholes are all about your 100% weapons, 100% defense, at like 15-30 hours of a characters life and won't help mages one bit with leveling, then throw in align/cabal restrictions and then nobody wants to play a mage for the reason that you have village assassin lowbie 1-5 log in and kill you 7 times in one day and loot you like bitches because your items are magic just to FURTHER HINDER YOUR SOLO LEVELING.

You want to fix the problem, fix the "I wanna be elite 100% melee char" #### and level with mages, then people will play them.

I think it's a good idea. Numbers are stupidly low. Shouldn't be punished for factors that are outside your control. The only people disagreeing with this are people who get their mage-kill via OOC hookups. Fact.

I can't say why they oppose, maybe you're right but I don't have evidence of that, so all I know is they seem to be ignoring the facts and blindly grasping the way it's always been done as the real reason. I hope the imms will make the change. It does nothing to hurt anyone or anything, is not abuseable, and would make the game for those trying to join battle marginally less unfun. And that's the real point, it's a game, there shouldn't be a barrier to fun that is totally out of a player's control, and can take weeks of time.

And plenty of folks are still getting into battle, refuting your "facts."

And as pointed out, the harm is to mages who want to have fun too. With your change you are ####ing with their fun stick now. It's your choice to roll a rager knowing it's going to be hard to get arguably the best power set in the game. You can always choose other options.

You're just wrong. All but one recent applicant have been assassins, not warriors. Non-invis seeing took 50, 60, more hours, which depending on how many hours a day you play is weeks. When's the last time you yourself tried? I'd bet a long time, or never. You are wrong on the facts.

And no harm to mages, their fun stick does not change. For the hundredth time, pre-25 applicants never get detect invis either way. Only change is at 25, all applicants do.

And if you think battle powers are arguably the best power set in the game, I think you're playing a different game. Again, when's the last time you played battle?

60% of the last 20 battle grave yard posts were did not have detect invis prior to becoming an applicant. Closer to 75% of the last 40. Your suggested change is not nessecary.

Kerubiel deleted 11/23/18
Kyllothan deleted 4/18/18
Quamlu deleted 12/14/17
None of which had detect invis, all had their kill sub 25. After Kerubiel I burned out on 3 consecutive villagers is why there is a gap.

Not that much has changed in tactics or player counts in the last 12 months, and I have been playing mages and been getting in fights with villager apps (initiated by them) since then.

And yes it does mess with mages fun stick. I don't want to have to worry about villager apps coming after me with detect invis past 25 with out earning it just like I dont want them to come after me before (earned by ranking to 25 with a kill).

Either way.. I am done wasting energy on this thread. I think it is evident an imm hasn't chimed in at this point no matter how loud you bitch. This is indicative there likely isn't an appetite for this change above. I would go back to my suggestion of stop wasting your energy here and go get your kill.

It takes 2 days to solo powerrank to 25th level and get detect invis via the pledge. Melee classes are spending a lot of time around 15th lvl to perfect parry/dodge/etc/weapons, so they have a lot of time to catch a mage. If you have a problem with invis, play a svirf.

What you wrote isn't clear, but if you're suggesting that as it is now, a battle applicant can level up to 25 and get detect invis, you are mistaken. That's the whole point.

If you are saying that with this change, then yes, they would, you're right, and that's the point. There are so few mages, and even when there is, they are invis, which no applicant, kill or not, can do anything about before level 25. This change would give at least a little help to the player who has spent scores of hours waiting for even one mage to be visible, and only at level 25 or above. Where's the harm in that exactly?

Harm is that mages have ZERO chances to win a fight against a warrior pre-20/25, unless they are geared and prepped to kill a warrior with some evil wand. So it's perfectly fine that they may at least use invis to save their lives, because on low levels it's definitely not a fair fight.

And from what I know, you become an applicant and get truesight on 25th level. Unless it was changed.

And nothing in the change changes that, nothing changes applicants up to 25. The only change is getting detect invis at 25. So by your own terms, no harm to mages.

And as I've said - and you're not alone in mistaking this, even an imm did - you do NOT just get truesight at 25, you have to have your mage kill first. That's the whole point here.

Totally doable unless the Imms hard coded something to prevent it.

SAying that it's "totally doable" to get in without killing a mage is pretty misleading, if not outright false.

1. Most battle leaders won't even consider an applicant that's never killed a mage (nor should they).
2. Even if a battle leader WOULD consider inducting someone that can't kill mages (again, this isn't a given), it stands to reason that the interview/approval process would be much more in-depth and thorough.. this adds up to just another roadblock for a newer player.
3. You said yourself, you have no idea if its technically possible. The entire attempt could be a waste of time.

Just making fun of the only real villager I ever really played, which inducted two non-applicants.

It was mechanically doable in the past, but as I don't play I have no idea if it still is.

I read about a 'induct 2.' with maelstrom that went to a mage nearby. Was this you? Epic either way.

I have no ooc/ic connections. The only ooc interactions I have related to this game are here and discord, but in neither location to I coordinate or even try to communicate ic relationships. I play CF the way the rules actually call for.

Thanks for playing the pointing fingers game, but you're flat wrong. And before you try to refute that.. it's why I don't have a ####ing clue what you were talking about in Siphoni's good bye about being bash proof from preps.

Having gotten a mage kill on a pre- third attack, enhanced damage ranger... And on multiple warriors pre 25.. I don't think the system is broken. I think the player is (or at least expectations).

Patience is much of a learned skill as pk.

Nt

You and Robdarken are not understanding. For you, having or not having second attack, third attack, enhanced damage, whatever, is irrelevant, because *you aren't getting the fight in the first place*. It's not about pk ability, it's about not having anyone to pk.

And for Rob, nothing about this change would change what you wrote or make a difference.

I think the thing you're both missing is that this change does one and only one single solitary thing: give village applicants truesight at level 25, without first having killed a mage. That's it.

All your points about warriors at lower levels remains the same, no change whatsoever. If a warrior wants to stick it out in the lower levels, and maybe go forever without seeing a mage and thus getting no kill, then too bad for him. And if a warrior wants to level up and let the mages come at him, as Robdarken wrote, he can do that, too. All that happens is once the warrior reaches 25, he gets detect invis. The higher level mage still has all the advantages as before, other than being unseen, because the applicant has no battle powers other than truesight.

There's no reason not to let battle applicants get truesight at 25, and every reason to do so.

It seems to me the only actual reason someone could be against this is if they just want to have the constant ability to avoid battle applicants, even after level 25. You want the free frags. That's not a valid reason.

If you are the hunter.

Occasionally you might get jumped yourself while trying to jump others, but in terms of offence, it should make no difference.

In lowbie pk you jump people that are fighting mobs. They rarely see you coming if you do it right. And if they have time to flee and invis they could equally have flee quaffed.

You're mistaken. They don't go vis at all for the most part. And days can go by without one logging on at all, vis or not.

And even if what you said were true, so what? Warrior still can't see them until 25, as it is now. That doesn't change.

If they are invis all the time then they aren't exposed anyway (ie they are guild sitting or spamming somewhere you can't surprise them).

So how does your having detect invis solve that?

How does your having detect invis solve the lack of log ins? If anything, it would make the lack of log ins more likely.

Maybe everyone should just be allowed to be a non zerker but I just don't get how you think giving people detect invis solves the issue.

I can't tell if you're being deliberately obtuse, but I'll respond. It's broken because the player can't do anything to do the thing he needs to do to get into the battle cabal. That results from the general lack of mage characters, which this change does nothing to help. Correct.

But to the extent there is one who logs on, he is pretty much perm invisible. This change lets a battle applicant, who levels to 25, get truesight. It will help a little, in that the few mages that are around, he can now hunt. It doesn't help the size of the world or the ability for the mage to get away with a potion or whatever. But it gives a tiny bit of help so a player has a tiny bit more control and ability to do the thing the system requires him to do.

Again, where's the harm in it?

If a mage is perma invis like you say, then they are not going to be in a situation where you can catch them even if you can see invis.

Ranking is what stops them doing that. And that means they aren't invis for a bit.

What do you think all these invis magi are doing?

Your argument doesn't stand up. You still haven't really explained how detect invis will get you the kill you say it is needed for.

I can't help but think this is all about you being killed by magi, and not about killing them. Because at level 25 plus there will be magi that come for you. So is your issue really that you need detect invis to defend yourself?

That is a different issue to needing it to be able to pk.

You are making my point, really. And I do think you're being obtuse.

"If a mage is perma invis like you say, then they are not going to be in a situation where you can catch them even if you can see invis."

Why? What does that even mean.

Everything boils down to this: few or no mages at all, and when there is a mage, virtually always invisible. This gives battle applicant - the player - zero fun. And it can last forever.

The change means the battle applicant - the player - can choose to level up to 25 and get detect invisible. It won't change the scarcity of mages, but it will give just a bit better chance for the applicant - player - to be able to do what the requirement demands, hunt a mage. The mage still has all the advantages, but it's just a tiny bit less impossible. It's still up to the applicant player to get that kill, and it still may take forever, but at least it's not the near impossibility it is now with a total block ability, which invisibility is.

You keep making assumptions and not relying on the basic facts, which are facts. And I'm not doing this because of only my experience, though no, my last characters were not killed by mages. And no, mages at level 25 don't often come. But again, this is all irrelevant.

The change harms no one, it does not reduce mage play because as you seem to think, by level 25 they would come at you anyway, so they want to fight, and no applicant under 25, kill or no kill, gets detect invis.

Make the change.

I said: "If a mage is perma invis like you say, then they are not going to be in a situation where you can catch them even if you can see invis."

You said: Why? What does that even mean.

What I mean is:
- A mage can't be permanently invis if they are ranking or spamming combat spells.
- if they are not ranking or spamming combat spells you are unlikely to be able to attack them.
- this is because they will be in their guild, somewhere you can't reach, or somewhere you can't sneak up on them.

So having detect obvious won't help unless they are exposed, and they will pretty much only be exposed and invis if they are resting from ranking. And if they are just resting from ranking, you don't need detect invis to kill them. You need to wait until they are visible because they are ranking. That gives you the distraction you need for your ambush.

I consider anything before 30 the lowbie PK zone. So when I say, "lowbie warrior" that includes 25+, it's even more relevant there than it is at 15. I understand, I just don't agree.

This is a non-problem. If you're too bad at PK to find and surprise one person who's busy, just rank up and they'll start coming to you. If, even with that, you can't PK a single person when your situation is equal or worse (god forbid), that isn't a broken system, that's just you being bad at PK. It's *supposed* to be slightly challenging to get your first mage kill, self-reliance fit to beat the odds is what ragers are about. Some classes just don't get detect invis, but like the rest of them, you prove you can make do without any outside help. That's the point, you prove yourself worthy before you get ANYTHING.

I wouldn't rub it in if you didn't try to frame it as some kind of seriously broken situation, I can't not laugh at that (especially given how easy it is to overcome). You're just going to have to rank out of your power zone and face a tougher matchup instead.

The first one is that you continue to assume there are mages to fight. Most of the time, there isn't one logged on in the first place. You also seem to be forgetting the size of the world and that they just don't go visible often or at all. They can level without it. You're just mistaken about that.

But the second is really the real issue which is your logic is wrong on how it should be. Your logic here is that it should be someone who can't see invisible should have to wait until someone comes to fight him. That's just the wrong way of thinking, it should be about whether the applicant can do something. Your way, you've said several times, is dependent on a mage deciding to go fight the applicant. It should be about the applicant going and finding.

As it is, things beyond the applicant's control, and things they by definition cannot effect or overcome, are determinitive. That's ass backwards. Your logic means you could have an applicant never, ever, even find one. Mages could just decide never to go to him. That's not the right outcome.

And again, how does it hurt anyone for a battle applicant to get trusight at 25 like they already do, if they have a kill? They still don't have other powers.

I get the sense you just don't like battle cabal. Maybe. And that's fine. But the change in the game over the last 25 years means the system is broken. Taken 50, 60, 75 hours to get lucky and try and find the one mage who logged on in three days and happened to go visible for 5 seconds is the opposite of a way to keep players.

nt

Wrong answer. Still don't get detect invis at 25.

Also the game doesn't wait to start.

Make the change.

nt

Yet you insist it's the fix for both.

Not having detect invis and not having foes are not the same thing. Just because you can't see them doesn't mean they aren't there.. yet you keep saying they are not there.

Also, I was using anecdote. Mage kills are totally doable by mediocre players even without the ability to lag, double the number of your attacks, ordouble your damage (getting a mage kill on lvl 17 ranger has been done). It takes patience. It takes persistence. It takes hunting skill. It takes game knowledge.

It does not take a change in the game. There are currently plenty of folks who are able to get into battle. This seems like "your" problem, not Battle's. And if you really want to play battle and cannot get a kill because of a lack of detect invis, go play a battle accepted class/race that has it.

The argument that they just sit invis is also false. They rank. They buy ####. They to to get into cabals. They forget. What ever the reason, they do step out. If you want to know if they are there, try to rp. Ask a known villager or paladin.. they will tell you if any are on.

My suggestion is to stop trolling the forums and get on the game and just get your kill. I believe in you. (####, if someone's first cf character was able to do it you should be able too as well)

I think the problem is you're simply mistaken in facts. The mages aren't there, and when they are, they are invisible. You can accept that fact or not, but it remains true. And again, even if not, no one has given a single reason why the change would somehow hurt, harm, abuse, or otherwise be bad. It's just adherence to what's always been done.

The fact is that there aren't mages in range for much of the time, and when there is one he or she is invisible. And like you said, yes, the applicant wouldn't know, isn't that the point? You keep saying get better, but that's the point, it's irrelevant whether you're good or bad, have enhanced damage or anything else - there's nobody there. That's the point.

This allows the applicant to actually use those skills to hunt if they want to level to 25. And they still need to do that hunting because you don't get in unless you get the kill.

So again, it's a change that should be made.

Against a mage who isn't there, or is perma invis and thus not ranking for or otherwise exposing themselves.

Your solution doesn't seem to address the supposed problem that you say it will.

At the same time you are claiming that those arguing with you just want easy frags on applicants and are serial Mage players. How can that work with your other claims about no fights to be had? They can't frag you if the aren't on and are never fighting you.

So either they want easy frags and the fights are there to be had, or they don't and your accusations as to why they are arguing with you are misplaced.

I can tell you I play both villagers and magi. And yes, you get the odd period when magi are thin on the ground. but they pass and you do find them. Last villager I played who couldn't see invis through race or class, got 7 pre induction kills and didn't get inducted into his 40s, because he was too proud to ask. Magi do try to jump you and you can jump them pking. Maybe make a point of advertising that you don't have detect invis to encourage them more. Don't forget, magi also need to pk to get inducted (squires need an evil pk and scions need to show competence), and a village app fight suits them just as much as it suits you.

By rank 35, most mages don't bother with invis cause they assume everyone can see them through some means anyway. Or at least, they are not as obssessed with keeping it on. OF course, they will likely be a lot harder for you to kill.

If you rank out of the levels where mages are speedbumps for fighter classes (which, by the way, are also the levels where you really have no business having any rager powers to begin with), they'll actually start coming after you instead, the only difference is that now you're the underdog as opposed to them.

You can leverage AC to make it so that no fighting class can hit you for significant damage, and use wands to splat enemies. Especially if they can't see you coming.

All that said, if you can't kill a mage at low levels, you probably shouldn't be a villager. The veil thickening alternative feels kind of sucky to me because I can't see lowbies getting materially significant objects without just relying on others.

Two silvery rings and a rapier and you have plenty of hit roll to bypass the -ac

It really isn't.

And even if it was, you just never done across people wearing 2 silvery rings.

It's how I took out all the melee classes so easily as lowbie ap, even though assassins had throw at low level too. Whereas muters were tough.

It was unusual to have more than 1 melee hit one on me before the other guy, or guys, were dead.

If you have good dex,and gear for ac above other priorities, then slap on sheen of stone plus (potentially) your class equivalent of armour, you are golden. And in the sanctum you can layer on shield and the equivalent of barrier. For AC rather than redux.

Damroll don't mean #### if you can't connect. I always have those rings and a rapier in a sack for those instances where I am missing. +13 hit is no joke at getting over -ac

I have literally spent hours working out how to get a great AC set and the crap I wear is otherwise terrible.

The veil idea though, impact veil a certain amount and break magic that way to attain applicant status. Now THERE'S a winning idea.

What is silly about it?

gr

I like the concept but I don't think it works when you think about it carefully.

The kind of stuff you can feed into the veil at low ranks doesn't do much.

The kind of stuff that does a lot you can't reliably get until high rank.

That then means in practice those using this route are taking the work of others as their own. It's kind of against village pride, in my eyes.