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Dallevian | Tue 14-May-19 10:59 AM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
1618 posts
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#73181, "Fluid Deceptions vs. STSF"
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So the topic has been talked around but never directly addressed. How well does the legacy Fluid Deceptions negate STSF?
Does race matter? Meaning, do stats matter? Duergar with low int/wis with it, or gnome with great int/wis, or human with 20/20? Does it make STSF build slower based on stats? Is it a check each time, or each 'observation'? Or does it blanket negate charges building?
Thanks.
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I had this as a legacy on Sekope,
Jarmel,
17-May-19 03:02 AM, #50
For reals,
Kstatida,
16-May-19 11:37 AM, #30
Not saying you're wrong, but,
jalbrin,
16-May-19 11:57 AM, #32
Like if FD adds 5 to your Int for the check against STS...,
jalbrin,
16-May-19 12:01 PM, #33
Also, Ishuli playtested,
Jormyr,
16-May-19 01:42 PM, #39
Ok,
Kstatida,
17-May-19 10:30 AM, #55
RE: Fluid Deceptions vs. STSF,
Umiron,
15-May-19 06:07 PM, #25
You know, I'm not anti Umiron but let me help...,
IrishMidnight,
16-May-19 01:01 PM, #34
RE: You know, I'm not anti Umiron but let me help...,
Ishuli,
16-May-19 01:25 PM, #37
I agree. n/t,
Relio,
16-May-19 06:47 PM, #45
Why reply at all?,
NoobAgain,
16-May-19 01:22 PM, #36
In case you trust his memory?,
robdarken_,
16-May-19 01:26 PM, #38
Basic PR,
NoobAgain,
16-May-19 02:20 PM, #40
I appreciate candor.,
robdarken_,
16-May-19 02:42 PM, #41
7pm Central, 6 players online; candor,
NoobAgain,
16-May-19 07:13 PM, #46
You do realize,
JohnEveryMan,
16-May-19 07:39 PM, #47
I want to blame Umiron for that :),
Kstatida,
17-May-19 10:33 AM, #56
RE: 7pm Central, 6 players online; candor,
robdarken_,
16-May-19 08:08 PM, #48
10:30pm Central, 7 players online,
NoobAgain,
16-May-19 10:26 PM, #49
RE: 10:30pm Central, 7 players online,
robdarken_,
17-May-19 04:04 AM, #51
Because he wanted to?,
JohnEveryMan,
16-May-19 03:32 PM, #42
RE: Fluid Deceptions vs. STSF,
incognito,
16-May-19 05:08 PM, #43
RE: Fluid Deceptions vs. STSF,
robdarken_,
16-May-19 05:56 PM, #44
RE: Fluid Deceptions vs. STSF,
incognito,
17-May-19 06:31 AM, #52
No idea.,
robdarken_,
17-May-19 08:45 AM, #53
As far as I know,
robdarken_,
14-May-19 12:48 PM, #2
Fluid counters stsf,
incognito,
14-May-19 03:37 PM, #3
Sent from my Iphone. (n/t),
JohnEveryMan,
14-May-19 03:46 PM, #4
RE: Sent from my Iphone. (n/t),
incognito,
15-May-19 12:55 AM, #12
What are you talking about? (n/t),
JohnEveryMan,
15-May-19 08:56 AM, #17
RE: What are you talking about? (n/t),
incognito,
15-May-19 01:17 PM, #22
I really don't get what you mean. Are you ok? (n/t),
JohnEveryMan,
15-May-19 01:33 PM, #23
Yawn,
incognito,
16-May-19 06:42 AM, #28
http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_...,
Mcbeth,
14-May-19 05:28 PM, #5
Sent from my Nokia 3310. (nt),
Mcbeth,
14-May-19 05:40 PM, #6
Daurwyn? n/t,
Lhydia,
14-May-19 07:37 PM, #8
Yes?,
JohnEveryMan,
14-May-19 07:52 PM, #9
Best phone I ever had,
incognito,
15-May-19 12:58 AM, #14
Never heard this myself.,
Ishuli,
14-May-19 06:00 PM, #7
quote from nepenthe,
Dallevian,
14-May-19 09:34 PM, #10
RE: quote from nepenthe,
robdarken_,
15-May-19 12:11 AM, #11
RE: quote from nepenthe,
incognito,
15-May-19 12:56 AM, #13
What about actually launching an attack?,
robdarken_,
15-May-19 01:12 AM, #15
Not only that.,
robdarken_,
15-May-19 02:31 AM, #16
wild if true,
Dallevian,
15-May-19 10:37 AM, #18
Only issue is,
robdarken_,
15-May-19 10:45 AM, #19
After brief testing for fun.,
Ishuli,
15-May-19 11:12 AM, #20
Thanks,
robdarken_,
15-May-19 11:19 AM, #21
Was he a BSer?,
Mcbeth,
15-May-19 04:08 PM, #24
High level Imm,
JohnEveryMan,
15-May-19 07:27 PM, #26
RE: After brief testing for fun.,
Kstatida,
17-May-19 10:34 AM, #57
Exactly,
Kstatida,
16-May-19 11:41 AM, #31
I don't know about exactly.,
Ishuli,
16-May-19 01:18 PM, #35
RE: I don't know about exactly.,
Kstatida,
17-May-19 10:36 AM, #58
Not unpredictable,
Saagkri,
16-May-19 12:25 AM, #27
Wis based.,
Ishuli,
16-May-19 07:48 AM, #29
Thanks for finding that,
Saagkri,
17-May-19 10:07 AM, #54
RE: Thanks for finding that,
incognito,
20-May-19 10:49 AM, #59
RE: Thanks for finding that,
Ishuli,
20-May-19 10:51 AM, #60
RE: Fluid Deceptions vs. STSF,
lasentia,
14-May-19 12:12 PM, #1
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Jarmel | Fri 17-May-19 03:02 AM |
Member since 19th Jul 2015
375 posts
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#73231, "I had this as a legacy on Sekope"
In response to Reply #0
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Kstatida | Thu 16-May-19 11:37 AM |
Member since 12th Feb 2015
2214 posts
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#73211, "For reals"
In response to Reply #0
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How come you think this is obscure?
Fluid removes 1 incoming melee attack. STSF charges on your melee attacks, so removing one decreases speed of STSF charging by 1 hit per round.
I'm positive that's pretty much all there is to it.
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jalbrin | Thu 16-May-19 11:52 AM |
Member since 20th Apr 2009
211 posts
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#73213, "Not saying you're wrong, but"
In response to Reply #30
Edited on Thu 16-May-19 11:57 AM
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Umiron, the guy with the code access, gave out an explanation for what he thought he remembered from seeing said code in the past.
An added intelligence check versus STSF would absolutely be one of those "How the hell woyld anyone not on Imm staff be expected to pick up on this," situations, but it's not outside the realm of possibility. There have been similar situations in the past.
Your explanation also makes sense, but are we that sure that feinted attacks don't count to STSF?
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jalbrin | Thu 16-May-19 11:57 AM |
Member since 20th Apr 2009
211 posts
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#73214, "Like if FD adds 5 to your Int for the check against STS..."
In response to Reply #32
Edited on Thu 16-May-19 12:01 PM
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Jormyr | Thu 16-May-19 01:42 PM |
Member since 31st Dec 2014
419 posts
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#73220, "Also, Ishuli playtested"
In response to Reply #32
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and his playtesting suggests that STSF charges (or doesn't) independently of an attack actually being attempted or not from feint disrupting it.
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Kstatida | Fri 17-May-19 10:30 AM |
Member since 12th Feb 2015
2214 posts
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#73236, "Ok"
In response to Reply #39
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That ruins my idea. Too bad I can't playtest
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Umiron | Wed 15-May-19 06:07 PM |
Member since 29th May 2017
1495 posts
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#73206, "RE: Fluid Deceptions vs. STSF"
In response to Reply #0
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I'm pretty sure having Fluid gives the warrior an int-based bonus against STSF, but I don't care enough right now to go look.
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IrishMidnight | Thu 16-May-19 01:01 PM |
Member since 14th Jan 2017
66 posts
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#73215, "You know, I'm not anti Umiron but let me help..."
In response to Reply #25
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I'm pretty sure having Fluid gives the warrior an int-based bonus against STSF, but I don't have enough time right now to go look.
Cause little things DO matter, especially to the non vocal players.
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Relio | Thu 16-May-19 06:47 PM |
Member since 23rd Sep 2014
246 posts
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#73226, "I agree. n/t"
In response to Reply #34
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NoobAgain | Thu 16-May-19 01:22 PM |
Member since 01st Mar 2007
408 posts
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#73217, "Why reply at all?"
In response to Reply #25
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It is hard to interpret your response as anything other than arrogant and antagonistic. I'm not an Umiron hater - you are a volunteer admin of a free game - you hardly owe anything to anyone... but why give such a reply to the player base? Meh - frankly just disappointing to see.
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NoobAgain | Thu 16-May-19 02:20 PM |
Member since 01st Mar 2007
408 posts
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#73221, "Basic PR"
In response to Reply #38
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Original version:
I'm pretty sure having Fluid gives the warrior an int-based bonus against STSF, but I don't care enough right now to go look.
Revised version 1:
I'm pretty sure having Fluid gives the warrior an int-based bonus against STSF.
Revised version 2:
I'm pretty sure having Fluid gives the warrior an int-based bonus against STSF; things are busy, if I get a chance I will confirm with the code.
***
"but I don't care enough right now to go look." --> MEH
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NoobAgain | Thu 16-May-19 07:12 PM |
Member since 01st Mar 2007
408 posts
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#73227, "7pm Central, 6 players online; candor"
In response to Reply #41
Edited on Thu 16-May-19 07:13 PM
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JohnEveryMan | Thu 16-May-19 07:39 PM |
Member since 25th Aug 2012
247 posts
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#73228, "You do realize"
In response to Reply #46
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How much of a hypocrite you are right?
We have low numbers, so you want to blame Umiron for that because he was being honest about not wanting to dig through code to write a dissertation on how Fluid interacts with stsf.
Better do our best to run off one of what two people around who code. Serves 'em right for not speaking the way I want them too.
Sent from my Iphone
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Kstatida | Fri 17-May-19 10:33 AM |
Member since 12th Feb 2015
2214 posts
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#73237, "I want to blame Umiron for that :)"
In response to Reply #47
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Being honest has nothing to do with being effective or polite.
You can be honest and not piss people off.
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robdarken_ | Thu 16-May-19 08:03 PM |
Member since 09th Sep 2009
373 posts
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#73229, "RE: 7pm Central, 6 players online; candor"
In response to Reply #46
Edited on Thu 16-May-19 08:08 PM
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NoobAgain | Thu 16-May-19 10:26 PM |
Member since 01st Mar 2007
408 posts
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#73230, "10:30pm Central, 7 players online"
In response to Reply #48
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All trolling aside, I simply thought Umi's reply was a bit dismissive/harsh. That's all. xoxo
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JohnEveryMan | Thu 16-May-19 03:32 PM |
Member since 25th Aug 2012
247 posts
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#73223, "Because he wanted to?"
In response to Reply #36
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And he isn't a PR guy, as if it would even matter to anyone if he did walk on eggshells. Sent from my Iphone
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incognito | Thu 16-May-19 05:08 PM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
4495 posts
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#73224, "RE: Fluid Deceptions vs. STSF"
In response to Reply #25
Edited on Thu 16-May-19 05:08 PM
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I suspect it is a direct counter rather than an indirect one. Why? Because the legacy is about misleading, which if done successfully had the same effect as being unpredictable. Specifically that it is harder to predict your actions.
I'm not sure why people seem to think it would necessarily be some subtle effect rather than a hard counter.
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incognito | Fri 17-May-19 06:31 AM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
4495 posts
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#73233, "RE: Fluid Deceptions vs. STSF"
In response to Reply #44
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Would it?
Not saying you are wrong but... Landslide Vs outcry, greeting Vs harmonious or another greeting, enigma Vs calming. Might not be an explicit check but the legacies definitely counter each other.
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incognito | Tue 14-May-19 03:37 PM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
4495 posts
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#73184, "Fluid counters stsf"
In response to Reply #2
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Think it was daev who said it. Definitely some imm said it though.
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JohnEveryMan | Tue 14-May-19 03:46 PM |
Member since 25th Aug 2012
247 posts
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#73185, "Sent from my Iphone. (n/t)"
In response to Reply #3
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incognito | Wed 15-May-19 12:55 AM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
4495 posts
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#73193, "RE: Sent from my Iphone. (n/t)"
In response to Reply #4
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JohnEveryMan | Wed 15-May-19 08:56 AM |
Member since 25th Aug 2012
247 posts
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#73198, "What are you talking about? (n/t)"
In response to Reply #12
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Sent from my Iphone Sent from my Iphone
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incognito | Wed 15-May-19 01:17 PM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
4495 posts
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#73203, "RE: What are you talking about? (n/t)"
In response to Reply #17
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You following his lead like a sheep.
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JohnEveryMan | Wed 15-May-19 01:33 PM |
Member since 25th Aug 2012
247 posts
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#73204, "I really don't get what you mean. Are you ok? (n/t)"
In response to Reply #22
Edited on Wed 15-May-19 01:33 PM
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incognito | Thu 16-May-19 06:42 AM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
4495 posts
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#73209, "Yawn"
In response to Reply #23
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Mcbeth | Tue 14-May-19 05:24 PM |
Member since 21st Jul 2015
257 posts
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#73186, "http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_..."
In response to Reply #3
Edited on Tue 14-May-19 05:28 PM
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http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=19207&mesg_id=19222&page= ? Relatively cryptic/not clear, he could have meant it prevents their attacking as much as they would if you don't have Fluid. Fluid to me seems like a totally ####-tier pick on any warrior dependent on returning damage via concealed/riposte/swiftstrike and a totally great power boost on any other warrior if it was given as a 3rd legacy. I can't imagine picking it as one of my two coded legacies, on any warrior, though. Maybe a helf with fluid + space would be cool... but if you were going to do that, why not just do an elf with stsf + space
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Mcbeth | Tue 14-May-19 05:40 PM |
Member since 21st Jul 2015
257 posts
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#73187, "Sent from my Nokia 3310. (nt)"
In response to Reply #5
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Lhydia | Tue 14-May-19 07:37 PM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
2379 posts
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#73189, "Daurwyn? n/t"
In response to Reply #6
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JohnEveryMan | Tue 14-May-19 07:52 PM |
Member since 25th Aug 2012
247 posts
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#73190, "Yes?"
In response to Reply #8
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Sent from my jitter bug Sent from my Iphone
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incognito | Wed 15-May-19 12:58 AM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
4495 posts
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#73195, "Best phone I ever had"
In response to Reply #6
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Now get back under your bridge with the others.
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Dallevian | Tue 14-May-19 09:34 PM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
1618 posts
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#73191, "quote from nepenthe"
In response to Reply #7
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>Fluid Deceptions
A good legacy, albiet one that's often overshadowed lately by Striking for a lot of the kinds of characters that would normally have been expected to take it. Probably best picked by characters that need or have a plan for its special disarming effect. (Also a good pick if warriors with Striking are your bane, incidentally.)
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incognito | Wed 15-May-19 12:56 AM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
4495 posts
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#73194, "RE: quote from nepenthe"
In response to Reply #11
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Hitting is not a trigger to gain a charge.
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Dallevian | Wed 15-May-19 10:37 AM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
1618 posts
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#73199, "wild if true"
In response to Reply #16
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more people would be spamming feint against stsf if so
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Ishuli | Wed 15-May-19 11:12 AM |
Member since 13th Feb 2017
2146 posts
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#73201, "After brief testing for fun."
In response to Reply #15
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JohnEveryMan | Wed 15-May-19 07:27 PM |
Member since 25th Aug 2012
247 posts
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#73207, "High level Imm"
In response to Reply #24
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I don't think he would have lied about it, or had any reason to, seeing as he could steamroll 90% of the pb even without cheating. Sent from my Iphone
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Kstatida | Fri 17-May-19 10:34 AM |
Member since 12th Feb 2015
2214 posts
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#73238, "RE: After brief testing for fun."
In response to Reply #20
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"Or at least same round" isn't helpful.
We need to know if it fires on exactly that attack
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Kstatida | Thu 16-May-19 11:41 AM |
Member since 12th Feb 2015
2214 posts
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#73212, "Exactly"
In response to Reply #15
Edited on Thu 16-May-19 11:41 AM
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A feinted attack is not a melee attack and melee attack code (including stsf charge check) are not run.
In other words, don't take Fluid Deceptions if you hope it will help you against STSF, because you'll get STSF charged 12,5% slower (4,5 rounds instead of 4 to full charge if you're dumb, big deal) against you.
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Kstatida | Fri 17-May-19 10:36 AM |
Member since 12th Feb 2015
2214 posts
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#73239, "RE: I don't know about exactly."
In response to Reply #35
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No other attacks at all, and 1 feinted attack triggers STSF charge?
All right my info was misinfo.
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Saagkri | Thu 16-May-19 12:25 AM |
Member since 17th Jun 2014
801 posts
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#73208, "Not unpredictable"
In response to Reply #2
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I took that edge then asked about it on this forum. I was told that it's still int based, so no shifter should ever ever ever take it. Not sure why it's even an option for them.
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Ishuli | Thu 16-May-19 07:48 AM |
Member since 13th Feb 2017
2146 posts
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#73210, "Wis based."
In response to Reply #27
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Saagkri | Fri 17-May-19 10:07 AM |
Member since 17th Jun 2014
801 posts
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#73235, "Thanks for finding that"
In response to Reply #29
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Even wis, as Umi pointed out, is crap for forms. Still not sure why it's an option for shifters. I cannot think of any case where it wouldn't be a waste of edgepoints.
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incognito | Mon 20-May-19 10:49 AM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
4495 posts
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#73256, "RE: Thanks for finding that"
In response to Reply #54
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lasentia | Tue 14-May-19 12:12 PM |
Member since 27th Apr 2010
987 posts
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#73182, "RE: Fluid Deceptions vs. STSF"
In response to Reply #0
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Why would fluid negate STSF at all? I mean, in theory it could based on what Fluid is meant to be, but I'm not sure that it does since STSF is all about observing the movements of the opponent, which would include the feints. If anything, STSF would negate fluid because they would observe the techniques used to bring about the feint.
It is an interesting question though, I'd be curious to know if it does anything or if the two legacy checks ignore one another.
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