Hello immortal team, can you take a look on the cost of the Lug edge?

With the new edge system its impossible to take it for orc.

Not impossible, just very expensive. Assuming you make liberal use of 'help edge specific', you should be able to get it.

-Ish

I'm the leader, 10k explorer, 15k observ, 51, unique combo and I don't see that edge in the list.

Do you think its ok?

Listening to the player and agreeing aren't the same thing.

For an edge that increases a stat cap? Yes, I think that's okay. But whether or not I think it is okay doesn't speak to helping you figure out what you need to do.

So let's be productive!
If all you've got are some of the tiers of the explore/observe columns, and hitting 51, then you can probably stack on that pretty easily. Read 'help edge specifics' and look at things like commerce, role, etc.

Having rolled a Shig-Ru and not getting the +con stat edge I wanted, I know how it sucks for it to feel out of reach, but increasing a stat cap is pretty dandy!

-Ish

Its one edge costs like two most expensive edges in the mud.

That means, that orc even if he'll be lucky enough to get enough imm exp, can try to get ONE edge.

I see our discussion is contrproductive. Its my last post here.

The imm who answered to me in the game was more helpful and he was suprised of the cost of that edge as well.

PS: For the imm who answered to me in the game. Real thanks bro, I don't care for that edge anymore, but it was nice to get the real answer not just the crap that you can read above. Sometimes players need the normal answers not just the #### or trolling. See ya!

==End of discussion.==

It's an expensive edge. It is not the most expensive edge in the game.

No trolling was intended, sorry if you think so!

-Ish

Carry alot of rafts and maybe an imm will notice it. Ps. It also helps with the bashing.

I will generally argue in favor of orcs all day long. However, keep
in mind these four edges are the ONLY edges in the game where you can
*increase a race's maximum stats*. It's about a once-every-three
years situation where a long-lived, amazing character for some reason
has that been given a stat increase. Keep that in mind when you
consider the price of the edge.

Secondly, most stats scale exponentially, so having 24 strength vs.
23 is a massive bonus for the class, particularly compared to that 19 dex or 16/17 int/wis. As an aside, Masochism's Endurance is the second-most expensive orc edge. Also, the person who responded to
you was not quite correct. It's #2, but there's also a few random
ones that are right behind it as well. You should fully expect that
if you choose to take Lug, that it will be the only edge you take.


However, looking specifically at your character (having made it
clear who you are), you have not achieved any role xp edge points,
Immortal xp edge points, or commerce edge points. You have barely
achieved have the possible gains for exploration xp, but have
reached the maximum possible observation edge point rewards. All
of this is accessible to you via comparing score xp and HELP EDGE
POINT SPECIFICS.

With as minimal hours as I have had lately, I cannot comment to
the quality of your character, but right there are MANY things you
can do to work towards this goal yourself. I did take the time to
read your role, and do not disagree with the xp you were awarded
there. Given your hours, I do not think the amount of edges
available to you versus what you WANT is out of line. By comparison,
there are at least 30 characters, that if they were orcs, would be
able to have chosen this edge.

Now, specifics aside - I agree that the edge is bafflingly
expensive. Secondly, orcs suffer compared to other classes in that
it is significantly more difficult for them to obtain cabal raiding
rewards. All that said, I tend to be of the opinion that either
the cost could be lowered *ever so* slightly to being REALLY expensive, or simply remove them from the general edge pool but
leave them available to be handed out like cabal edges. The
problem with the first is that if it becomes particularly accessible,
the argument becomes why not simply have orc stats be higher to
begin with. Orcs can be perfectly effective with the stats they
have, raising one of the arguably two stats they bother to care
about is a significant boost.

Long story short - I agree the cost is exceptionally high. You
pay for what you get. I agree it's worth *looking* at whether it
should be that high or lowered. The result of that may still be
"No, that's where it needs to be." In the meantime, it's still
very feasible for you to obtain it, and I would recommend simply
referring to HELP EDGE POINT SPECIFICS and pursuing those routes.

....

and of course things happen to make this pointless as I go to post
it, but...I'll leave it here in case it's of interest.

>Secondly, most stats scale exponentially...

I believe stats scale non-linearly in CF. In some cases
you could even make the case they scale exponentially,
however in practice I certainly believe that the difference
is not actually that large. Specifically in the case of 23
vs. 24str, it isn't likely the (for instance) damage output
will look anything like exponentially better, or that the
exponent is so close to 1 that it looks functionally linear.

In short, I think you'd be better served by looking at just
how much an effect 1 str would have in practice. Do you parry
3% better? Do you do 1% more damage? There are a ton of
small affects, I'm sure, but if the overall change in any
given effect is less than 10%, it probably isn't overly
noticeable for a person who takes the edge.

I know, in my personal anecdotal evidence with shigru that
I probably wouldn't take that edge again because without
knowing a lot more about the effects, it feels like the
difference is a few hp (at best).

Its really hard, on the player end, to quantify and make
informed decisions when so much of these things, like edge
point cost vs. overall edge points you can reasonable earn
are hidden.

It is entirely possible this player would be just as unhappy
with it if he knew exactly how much Lug costs, and how many
edge points he could earn (via edge point specifics), but I
think it is more likely they would approach the complaint
differently (don't you think this costs too much?) vs WTF
why can't I take this edge if it wasn't a surprise due to
lack of information.

>
>>Secondly, most stats scale exponentially...
>
>I believe stats scale non-linearly in CF. In some cases
>you could even make the case they scale exponentially,
>however in practice I certainly believe that the difference
>is not actually that large. Specifically in the case of 23
>vs. 24str, it isn't likely the (for instance) damage output
>will look anything like exponentially better, or that the
>exponent is so close to 1 that it looks functionally linear.

I suppose there's a slight distinction there. I don't go into the
code-side, but noticeably beyond linearly was my impression in the
23+ range of stats. 19 to 22-23 is a lot more linear was my
understanding. On that same note, I do feel like the dex-warrior
gains far more out of the non-linear than the str-warrior does,
but that's just me.

>In short, I think you'd be better served by looking at just
>how much an effect 1 str would have in practice. Do you
>parry
>3% better? Do you do 1% more damage? There are a ton of
>small affects, I'm sure, but if the overall change in any
>given effect is less than 10%, it probably isn't overly
>noticeable for a person who takes the edge.

Couldn't tell you for sure. But given orcs are str-focused,
mamlauks double down on that, higher wield-weight, higher damage
with heavier weapons, that's definitely compounding. I generally
assume str makes orcs happy, but it's as much anecdotal as anything.

>I know, in my personal anecdotal evidence with shigru that
>I probably wouldn't take that edge again because without
>knowing a lot more about the effects, it feels like the
>difference is a few hp (at best).

Honestly, you're ahead of me on this mark. I love my Skruggas,
but I've never managed to actually take Agile Coward. I'd probably
take the +con one given the chance, but it's so late in the game
before you can take it, dunno how useful it is. I'm super curious
how much fast healing, toughness, and grit improve w/ 24 con vs 25
now.

>Its really hard, on the player end, to quantify and make
>informed decisions when so much of these things, like edge
>point cost vs. overall edge points you can reasonable earn
>are hidden.

Admittedly, I have a better insight into exact cost these days,
but the result is little different than when I was a player.
Although myself, I just chalked those edges up to being unicorns.

>It is entirely possible this player would be just as unhappy
>with it if he knew exactly how much Lug costs, and how many
>edge points he could earn (via edge point specifics), but I
>think it is more likely they would approach the complaint
>differently (don't you think this costs too much?) vs WTF
>why can't I take this edge if it wasn't a surprise due to
>lack of information.

I would disagree a little, given the WTF approach when the player
felt he "should" have had this edge, but hasn't even scratched the
surface of many ways to get edges. I would have sworn this edge
was known to be absurdly expensive, but maybe that's just from a
super-long-ago forum post that he wouldn't have likely referenced.
There has been some discussion that while this edge will almost
certainly remain very expensive, the possibility at least exists
that it may be re-evaluated, particularly given orcish struggles
in the cabal wars discussion.

Yes, exponential is a subset of non-linear.

So I think part of the thing here is that there are a lot of checks
for strength, and having +1 strength affects a lot of things in
positive ways. They aren't, as a whole, overly large or noticeable
things though, or storm giant strength build would look and feel
noticeably worse than fire/cloud/frost.

So back to this particular case, we'd have to look at Lug/Mamlauk/Orc
specifically and see if there are checks in those specific to orc
skills that *really* care about +1str. Which, given that the adapts
were written before edges, would be a weird thing to have included.
It would also (probably) mean you'd really care about -1str as well,
so losing 1str would be roughly as bad as +1str would be good, and
that doesn't seem overly noticeable either.

If it was up to me to assess how good/bad such and edge is, and
apply a cost that was in line with that value, I'd try and stick an
objective measure on it in some way. My first thought is some sort
of HP equivalent value. I probably won't be able to explain this as
well as it needs, but I'd look at how much HP equivalent value does
+1str yield in a "test" fight. So we'd set some base values of like
100hp per hit, 10 rounds of fighting, attempting to maximize the
effect, and then run the math to see how much that extra 1str yields
in extra damage and damage mitigation over the 10 round fight when
we're trying to maximize the difference made. So in this case you'd
parry at a slightly higher effectiveness, and maybe a little bit of
dodge based on % carry weight, and then chose skills that care a lot
about strength, so maybe something like whomp/brute force/hack.

I suspect, the overal value here would be fairly low (<100hp diff),
but obviously someone with code access would have to take the time
to actually establish this measure. You could then compare it to,
for instance, the throw edge, which if throw is usually 80% chance,
but boosted to 100% with edge, you'd expect to hit 1 more throw per
10 round fight, which would have a clear HP equivalent value. If
Lug is less than the throw edge, then the cost should be relatively
cheaper.

No measure would be perfect in a game as complex as CF, but you
could probably establish a few of them along with some code to run
the testing and have a pretty solid basis for balancing things,
cost wise, for edges and other things.

In Ishuli's defense, the problem you raised in your post was that with the current edge system "it's impossible" to pick it.

Ishuli said it's very expensive, but verified it is possible to get and pointed you to the "help edge point specifics".

If you wanted a discussion whether it SHOULD be so expensive, you should have said that.