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#65771, "Heroed, Role Exp, and RP throughout life - Can't Spin minor form."
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Not sure if this is working as intended... but based on several threads below, I don't think so.
Uncaballed, RP'ed character that is heroed, and has role exp cannot spin the wheel on a minor form.
This is dumb.
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Thread locked due to sprawl.,
Jormyr,
19-Dec-16 11:58 AM, #53
As someone who's played a LOT of shifters recently...,
Shifter (Anonymous),
17-Dec-16 07:06 PM, #42
RE: As someone who's played a LOT of shifters recently....,
Destuvius,
17-Dec-16 07:23 PM, #43
RE: As someone who's played a LOT of shifters recently....,
Shifter (Anonymous),
17-Dec-16 10:54 PM, #44
They can't be wrong. So it'll never change.,
Warren,
17-Dec-16 11:23 PM, #46
Wow,
incognito,
18-Dec-16 02:17 AM, #49
Air Major = 3 other high flying forms. nt,
Shifter (Anonymous),
18-Dec-16 04:53 AM, #50
RE: Heroed, Role Exp, and RP throughout life - Can't Sp...,
Kstatida,
17-Dec-16 08:29 AM, #17
Because. You know. I had a role and was having fun.,
Warren,
17-Dec-16 11:23 PM, #45
RE: Heroed, Role Exp, and RP throughout life - Can't Sp...,
Destuvius,
16-Dec-16 12:58 PM, #1
This should be lowered,
Shapeshifter (Anonymous),
16-Dec-16 01:08 PM, #2
RE: This should be lowered,
N b M,
16-Dec-16 03:04 PM, #3
Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not,
Torak,
16-Dec-16 04:49 PM, #4
Sarcasm. Basically he is echoing what the imms told him...,
Retan,
16-Dec-16 04:52 PM, #5
For shame,
Destuvius,
16-Dec-16 06:07 PM, #7
RE: For shame,
N b M,
16-Dec-16 09:06 PM, #9
And....NEW! PETTYWEIGHT CHAMPION OF THE WORLD!,
TMNS,
16-Dec-16 09:54 PM, #12
Oh crap now Torak's gonna ban you. n/t,
Lhydia,
17-Dec-16 07:57 AM, #15
I say he did already,
Kstatida,
17-Dec-16 08:15 AM, #16
pfft...Torak doesn't do his job ;),
Sarien,
19-Dec-16 11:48 AM, #52
Roll the Bones/Spin the Wheel/Racial Forms,
Andrlos,
16-Dec-16 05:06 PM, #6
For the record,
Jormyr,
16-Dec-16 09:02 PM, #8
RE: For the record,
Andrlos,
16-Dec-16 09:44 PM, #10
Actually had that happen.,
Jormyr,
16-Dec-16 11:24 PM, #13
Funnily enough,
Kstatida,
17-Dec-16 12:16 PM, #28
I'd laugh when you swap Lion out and get Jaguar then :)...,
TMNS,
17-Dec-16 12:22 PM, #29
Wat. I would've loved to have those forms.,
Murphy,
17-Dec-16 05:22 PM, #41
Cosign (with Txt),
Amora,
16-Dec-16 09:54 PM, #11
They used to be that way..,
Lhydia,
17-Dec-16 07:56 AM, #14
On exploit or grind,
Shapeshifter (Anonymous),
17-Dec-16 10:41 AM, #18
RE: For the record,
Umiron,
17-Dec-16 11:06 AM, #19
wrong.,
Warren,
17-Dec-16 11:29 AM, #20
That 42 hours really set you back. NT,
TMNS,
17-Dec-16 11:32 AM, #21
RE: wrong.,
Destuvius,
17-Dec-16 11:34 AM, #22
RE: wrong.,
Warren,
17-Dec-16 11:46 AM, #23
Yea, pretty sure giving me 1300 was "unintentional" at ...,
Warren,
17-Dec-16 11:56 AM, #24
RE: Yea, pretty sure giving me 1300 was ,
Destuvius,
17-Dec-16 11:59 AM, #25
So that I could min/max it,
Kstatida,
17-Dec-16 12:14 PM, #27
Did you take time to perfect shapeshift spell?,
Kstatida,
17-Dec-16 12:10 PM, #26
Not intended to bash, but,
Jormyr,
17-Dec-16 01:03 PM, #30
Kraldinor The Emperor took Rydell, The Cardinals Last n...,
Warren,
17-Dec-16 03:43 PM, #39
RE: Kraldinor The Emperor took Rydell, The Cardinals La...,
Destuvius,
17-Dec-16 04:05 PM, #40
God Forbid,
Warren,
17-Dec-16 11:26 PM, #47
If you're gonna move on...,
Lhydia,
18-Dec-16 06:06 PM, #51
RE: For the record,
Andrlos,
17-Dec-16 01:40 PM, #31
Oh come on,
Kstatida,
17-Dec-16 01:44 PM, #32
I played back then too,
Andrlos,
17-Dec-16 01:54 PM, #34
On my last warrior,
Kstatida,
17-Dec-16 03:28 PM, #38
RE: For the record,
Destuvius,
17-Dec-16 01:51 PM, #33
What about the racial edge forms?,
Andrlos,
17-Dec-16 02:04 PM, #35
RE: What about the racial edge forms?,
Destuvius,
17-Dec-16 02:14 PM, #36
One on hand, I agree with you. On the other, I think y...,
TMNS,
17-Dec-16 03:17 PM, #37
RE: For the record,
Warren,
17-Dec-16 11:30 PM, #48
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Jormyr | Mon 19-Dec-16 11:58 AM |
Member since 31st Dec 2014
423 posts
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#65839, "Thread locked due to sprawl."
In response to Reply #0
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Looks like for the most part this thread has run its course. Locking it so as not to clutter the whole front page whenever someone makes a comment.
People are welcome to continue the topic in a new thread if they feel there's still relevant topics to discuss.
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#65815, "As someone who's played a LOT of shifters recently..."
In response to Reply #0
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TL/DR:
I've played mostly melee classes for the last several years. Recently, I've been focused on shifters and have played a lot of them. One reason is when I get a form or forms that make the char sub-par power-wise, I'll start another char. Sorry, I'm not going to age die a Air major who's second tier utility form is wasted on a mantis (as a recent example).
What strikes me as odd is the attitude that you should have to play the cards (forms) you're dealt and suggestions to the contrary are dismissed as "as designed". Every other class I play against (except maybe shaman), can be designed for maximum power/use by the player.
Why doesn't the same logic that applies to shifters work with warriors and thieves? Random thief path, random weapon specialties, random legacies...
The warriors/assassins I have to deal with are designed kill me. I'd like to be able to design my shifter to kill them, too.
"But everyone would have the same forms"! Is that true for legacies, weapon specs? If it is for forms, then the forms need to be better balanced instead of encouraging players to rank multiple chars to hero or near it before they get one that they are willing to really play/enjoy.
Just a thought.
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#65817, "RE: As someone who's played a LOT of shifters recently...."
In response to Reply #43
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I agree that foci largely determines the function of your char. But, the important question is not "Are the forms balanced within a tier of a focus". What matters is after the RNG picks your forms from each tier, "Are characters with the same maj/min focus balanced"?
In other words, a character might be identical to another at creation as far as what the player can choose. At hero, one may be awesome from a power, function perspective and one horrible by comparison. And you spent 50-100 hours to find out if you think your char is worth playing or not.
I mean, if someone is willing to start a whole new character after 35 hours because they didn't get a regen form, wouldn't it be more beneficial to just let them pick their regen form and have them fully invested in a char they like? And it doesn't matter if regen forms are under or over rated, it's what THAT player wants to be entertained.
Player preference = happiness. Control = happiness.
When you get a form you don't like or you think is not useful to your char = not fun.
I don't expect to change any policy, just voicing a different perspective.
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Warren | Sat 17-Dec-16 11:23 PM |
Member since 17th Dec 2012
396 posts
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#65819, "They can't be wrong. So it'll never change."
In response to Reply #44
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incognito | Sun 18-Dec-16 02:17 AM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
4495 posts
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#65822, "Wow"
In response to Reply #42
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I think mantis is a great form to have in your choices.
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#65823, "Air Major = 3 other high flying forms. nt"
In response to Reply #49
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Kstatida | Sat 17-Dec-16 08:29 AM |
Member since 12th Feb 2015
2214 posts
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#65790, "RE: Heroed, Role Exp, and RP throughout life - Can't Sp..."
In response to Reply #0
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>Uncaballed, RP'ed character that is heroed, and has role exp >cannot spin the wheel on a minor form. > >This is dumb.
Yeah, considering you didn't get role exp, this really is dumb. Because if it was designed that shapeshifter can just reroll his minor after heroing without getting any edge points other than that, they'd just give you "StW" command on getting your last minor form.
Those are edges, mate. New rules is that they make you different because you stand out, not because you're part of exceptional nation, sorry.
P.S. If you can hero a shapeshifter in two days like that, just hero another one, really. It's easier than writing a second role chapter, right?
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Warren | Sat 17-Dec-16 11:23 PM |
Member since 17th Dec 2012
396 posts
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#65818, "Because. You know. I had a role and was having fun."
In response to Reply #17
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Doing the Herald Thing. Had lots of IC interactions that I enjoyed. I was invested in the character, which is what a smart Staff would actually want. (meaning, that they aren't smart)
In retrospect. I could level a bunch of characters and "start" to roleplay the character at 48. Seems to be the way the staff wants it when it comes to shifters.
Irrelevant now. But sure.
Good luck bud.
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#65773, "This should be lowered"
In response to Reply #1
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Okay. 1400 role xp doesn't seem to hard to get, but really?
This edge (especially the minor) should be obtainable to a hero.
Having to spend *all* of your EP, even from your max role XP, to roll your minor form seems excessive when there are no other reliable ways to get EP.
Very dumb, frustrating, to the point of anti-fun.
The call for every char getting 1-2 high, 2-3 mid, 3-4 low EP edges seems to make more and more sense for both customization, and anti-stupidity/frustration perspectives.
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N b M | Fri 16-Dec-16 03:04 PM |
Member since 29th Sep 2005
444 posts
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#65774, "RE: This should be lowered"
In response to Reply #2
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Apply, build your area, rise out of the hero Imm ranks, gain a few high level backers, then you can adjust the system so that it is reasonable and enjoyable for everyone.
Until then, kindly #### off
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Torak | Fri 16-Dec-16 04:49 PM |
Member since 15th Feb 2007
1216 posts
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#65775, "Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not"
In response to Reply #3
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Retan | Fri 16-Dec-16 04:52 PM |
Member since 14th Oct 2011
218 posts
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#65776, "Sarcasm. Basically he is echoing what the imms told him..."
In response to Reply #4
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N b M | Fri 16-Dec-16 09:06 PM |
Member since 29th Sep 2005
444 posts
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#65780, "RE: For shame"
In response to Reply #7
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A decent reply where you are giving options instead of just telling people to apply for the staff.
Thank you.
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TMNS | Fri 16-Dec-16 09:54 PM |
Member since 10th Jun 2009
2670 posts
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#65783, "And....NEW! PETTYWEIGHT CHAMPION OF THE WORLD!"
In response to Reply #9
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Lhydia | Sat 17-Dec-16 07:57 AM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
2391 posts
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#65787, "Oh crap now Torak's gonna ban you. n/t"
In response to Reply #7
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Kstatida | Sat 17-Dec-16 08:15 AM |
Member since 12th Feb 2015
2214 posts
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#65788, "I say he did already"
In response to Reply #15
Edited on Sat 17-Dec-16 08:15 AM
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My guess is Destuvius is played by Beront.
Although hit on funnyone indicates you (good work) or shapa.
Hmm...
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Sarien | Mon 19-Dec-16 11:48 AM |
Member since 14th Feb 2009
740 posts
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#65838, "pfft...Torak doesn't do his job ;)"
In response to Reply #15
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Andrlos | Fri 16-Dec-16 05:06 PM |
Member since 28th Apr 2004
54 posts
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#65777, "Roll the Bones/Spin the Wheel/Racial Forms"
In response to Reply #1
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I get this, but thinking specifically about these shapeshifter edges the points required seems rather onerous in the new system.
If someone wants to re-roll their major they need to get to 47/48 using a second-tier form, and then hero still using their minor first-tier. (This doesn't get into how the "never shifted into" requirement punishes newbies who might not be familiar with forms.) On top of that, the racial edge forms are worse. Should an elf/d-elf/svirf be stuck with only one second-tier form until hero?
Shapeshifters wanting to take these edges are hamstrung in a way no other class I can think of is.
The cost of these edges feel as though they were built for a meta with far more points available earlier in a character's life.
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Jormyr | Fri 16-Dec-16 09:02 PM |
Member since 31st Dec 2014
423 posts
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#65779, "For the record"
In response to Reply #6
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I was actually discussing this topic today, and was specifically commenting about the cost of these edges vs what you can reasonably expect to gain. Overall, I think these are currently a bit difficult to gain. On the flip side, consider that before these edges existed, you just took what you got, so I'm not entirely convinced every shapeshiftrr *needs* to be able to pick these edges.
Overall, I'm generally of the opinion that edge points are too much in the hands of needing Immortal interaction, and this situation is more a fallout from that, however I'm not entirely certain where I believe I feel they should be, nor what methods to use that can be semi-automated, and not be exploited or seen as a grind.
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Andrlos | Fri 16-Dec-16 09:44 PM |
Member since 28th Apr 2004
54 posts
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#65781, "RE: For the record"
In response to Reply #8
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There have been a number of changes making the game even slightly friendlier to players - if we took the "before these edges existed" logic in that direction the game would never progress in the name of fun. Giving a player a single do-over on a character seems relatively accommodating to both balance and fun.
That said, I agree you don't want to create a situation where every air/offense shifter gets a re-roll for their preferred forms, but an utility/offense shifter is only likely going to delete if they end up with orangutan/gorilla.
Spitballing a solution, what if each shifter was able to take a single form change edge at whatever point they hit the prereqs for it, with their edge points going into the negative to cover the cost?
Of course, adjusting the cost downwards a bit would be a nice bonus to throw in.
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Jormyr | Fri 16-Dec-16 11:24 PM |
Member since 31st Dec 2014
423 posts
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#65785, "Actually had that happen."
In response to Reply #10
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Rolled a utility/utility and ended up with orangutan/howler monkey. I lasted two weeks before I couldn't take it anymore.
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Kstatida | Sat 17-Dec-16 12:16 PM |
Member since 12th Feb 2015
2214 posts
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#65801, "Funnily enough"
In response to Reply #13
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I'd reroll an offence if I didn't get gorilla
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TMNS | Sat 17-Dec-16 12:22 PM |
Member since 10th Jun 2009
2670 posts
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#65802, "I'd laugh when you swap Lion out and get Jaguar then :)..."
In response to Reply #28
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Murphy | Sat 17-Dec-16 05:22 PM |
Member since 30th Dec 2010
1639 posts
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#65814, "Wat. I would've loved to have those forms."
In response to Reply #13
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Amora | Fri 16-Dec-16 09:44 PM |
Member since 28th Feb 2006
123 posts
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#65782, "Cosign (with Txt)"
In response to Reply #8
Edited on Fri 16-Dec-16 09:54 PM
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Weirdly, empowerment changes made the game less dependent on immortals based on how hot/cold they were or If they couldn't play as much. They are humans too so it opened doors.
While edge changes have made everyone far more dependent on immortal love for core class choices. The average immortal exp given out falls below the average exp needed even for standard characters.
Also, for the record (and this isn't a complaint) I've gotten 0 immortal exp over 3 characters and 300 hrs playing time since I returned. I'm throwing this out there not because I'm upset in anyway, I'm not though I miss edges, but as an observation to how weird and randomly unlevel the system is. The results of imm exp can bring fun boons or be frustrating if you love that stuff and want to play with similar tools.
Another good exercise (as someone who loves character design and crafting customization) is to read thru some of the edge lists by class. If you find yourself laughing at 35% as horrifically unviable and a waste, it's a sign of how stingy the edge system has shifted.
Don't even get me started on portions of the general edge list that you could pick with a Baerinika but not in 2016
In summary, I think the frustration across the playerbase for edges drying up as options far outceeds the concern with some players having had too many edges that existed before. Now that the explore grind is gone, I'd like to see middle ground.
I'd love to see 3 more edges for ALL based on game time. I'd love to see an edge for getting your first FEW pkills (encouraging people to participate in that, even newbies) but then immediately stops awarding more so we don't encourage repeat killing I'd love to see edges awarded for major con loss with also helps newbies/hurting characters and helps this struggling with pkilling
And these 3 ideas are newbie/veteran color blind.
Oh, and I'm writing this poolside from Cancun
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#65791, "On exploit or grind"
In response to Reply #8
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Just keep it simple
Every character gets X edge points by Hero. Every 100 hours, chars get X edge points.
Done. Tweak from there.
No grind, no abuse.
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Umiron | Sat 17-Dec-16 11:06 AM |
Member since 29th May 2017
1499 posts
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#65792, "RE: For the record"
In response to Reply #8
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>I was actually discussing this topic today, and was >specifically commenting about the cost of these edges vs what >you can reasonably expect to gain. Overall, I think these are >currently a bit difficult to gain.
In order to take RtB or StW, an uncaballed level 51 character would only need a very small amount of EPs from some combination of Commerce XP, Imm XP, their last name being approved, or Role XP.
They could get it 100% from the 1.4k Role XP alone and nothing else, or through some combination of other factors.
Certain race shapeshifters wouldn't even need that because they get an EP bonus (e.g., arial shifter).
It's not as easy as it used to be (because a shifter could just farm a ton of EXP/OXP), but the cost of the edges were halved to make up for that. They were still meant to be expensive though.
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Warren | Sat 17-Dec-16 11:29 AM |
Member since 17th Dec 2012
396 posts
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#65793, "wrong."
In response to Reply #19
Edited on Sat 17-Dec-16 11:29 AM
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Gnome Shapeshifter
Cabaled, 200 Imm Exp, 1300 Role Exp, Hero. Still can't spin the wheel.
Enjoy the ball.
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TMNS | Sat 17-Dec-16 11:32 AM |
Member since 10th Jun 2009
2670 posts
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#65794, "That 42 hours really set you back. NT"
In response to Reply #20
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Warren | Sat 17-Dec-16 11:46 AM |
Member since 17th Dec 2012
396 posts
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#65796, "RE: wrong."
In response to Reply #22
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Warren | Sat 17-Dec-16 11:56 AM |
Member since 17th Dec 2012
396 posts
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#65797, "Yea, pretty sure giving me 1300 was "unintentional" at ..."
In response to Reply #22
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Destuvius | Sat 17-Dec-16 11:59 AM |
Member since 08th Oct 2013
1012 posts
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#65798, "RE: Yea, pretty sure giving me 1300 was "
In response to Reply #24
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The way role exp is assigned is static.
Initial entires are 0, 500, 1000, 1500, 2000.
Updates are 0, 400, 800, 1200.
Your initial role got 500.
You received 2 different 400 updates, getting you to 1300.
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Kstatida | Sat 17-Dec-16 12:14 PM |
Member since 12th Feb 2015
2214 posts
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#65800, "So that I could min/max it"
In response to Reply #25
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Can guidelines be vaguely outlined as to what should constitute a basic role to get those:
500 1000 1500 2000
I always go by the 1000+400 path, and my roles are pretty generic in what they tell. So I wonder what can be done better in order to move up the scale.
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Kstatida | Sat 17-Dec-16 12:10 PM |
Member since 12th Feb 2015
2214 posts
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#65799, "Did you take time to perfect shapeshift spell?"
In response to Reply #20
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Jormyr | Sat 17-Dec-16 01:03 PM |
Member since 31st Dec 2014
423 posts
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#65803, "Not intended to bash, but"
In response to Reply #20
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This was an unremarkable character that did unremarkable things for the most part. 42 hours comments towards this, as if you're more active power to hero vs doing other things, you don't tend to stand out much.
When you did, yes, you were RPing, but your RP was leaning in a direction that we intentionally do not want to reward. Taking another character's last name will near always get your last name denied. Writing meaningless role entries just to try to get you exp tends to get zero xp from them.
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Warren | Sat 17-Dec-16 03:43 PM |
Member since 17th Dec 2012
396 posts
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#65812, "Kraldinor The Emperor took Rydell, The Cardinals Last n..."
In response to Reply #30
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And was applauded, given IMM xp, and given the last name.
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Warren | Sat 17-Dec-16 11:26 PM |
Member since 17th Dec 2012
396 posts
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#65820, "God Forbid"
In response to Reply #40
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That you take the same exact scenario and replace a heroIMM with another PC. You know, like HEROIMMS don't RP anymore. Who cares man.
That's the path the RP took me. I just went with it. Maybe you should tell us all how you would like the community to RP proper... I mean, you try to control everything else.
Whatever. Enough of you.
*waves*
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Andrlos | Sat 17-Dec-16 01:40 PM |
Member since 28th Apr 2004
54 posts
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#65804, "RE: For the record"
In response to Reply #19
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Not to just repeat myself, but it feels like there's a huge imbalance in making a shifter wait until hero to swap a form. Swapping your major requires getting to 47/48 using only a second tier form. Worse still are the second-tier racial forms -- making a shifter forgo a second-tier so they can swap it out only after they've hit 51 doesn't make a lot of sense to me in terms of fun or fairness (I get there are reasons to take them, but -- without concrete reasons explained in the helpfile and pre-existing familiarity with the forms -- it distinctly disadvantages newbies.
What the change in edge points has done is now require a shifter to hero, receive imm/role exp AND take on a significant reduction in their class's abilities for an extended period of time (potentially 23 levels if swapping out a second tier major).
Destuvius suggested elsewhere, a shifter with five edges isn't really much more powerful than a shifter with none, and these are edges which don't necessarily increase a shifter's raw power. It just seems to be an unbalanced expectation of shifters, where no similar requirement is put on any other class's edges.
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Kstatida | Sat 17-Dec-16 01:44 PM |
Member since 12th Feb 2015
2214 posts
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#65805, "Oh come on"
In response to Reply #31
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Shapeshifters were not meant to reroll IN THE FIRST PLACE. And now you're bitching that you have to suffer some in order to reroll?
Kids these days.
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Andrlos | Sat 17-Dec-16 01:54 PM |
Member since 28th Apr 2004
54 posts
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#65807, "I played back then too"
In response to Reply #32
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I get that argument. But if we extended it to any other topic, we'd shut down any progress or development in the game.
Most edges add usefulness to a character with the cost being only edge points. Shapeshifters get hit with a massive additional cost to their overall power prior to hero if they want to reroll. It would be a bit different if they could re-roll a form they've previously used (and newbie friendlier), but as things stand, there's an enormous disparity.
There's no great parallel with another class, but suppose to take weapon edges as a warrior you couldn't have practiced any non-spec weapon skill over 90%. Would your answer still be "Well, you never got these before, so its fair to suffer some to take it now?"
Basing things off of the way they were a decade ago is absurd. The game is much friendlier to new and old players. This is just a single, easily remedied area in which it seems to have moved backwards.
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Kstatida | Sat 17-Dec-16 03:28 PM |
Member since 12th Feb 2015
2214 posts
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#65811, "On my last warrior"
In response to Reply #34
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I've only taken one weapon spec edge. At that moment I was like 300+ hours leader a shipload of edgepoints enough for at least 5 StW
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Andrlos | Sat 17-Dec-16 02:04 PM |
Member since 28th Apr 2004
54 posts
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#65808, "What about the racial edge forms?"
In response to Reply #33
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I feel the gear/ungeared argument carried more weight back when shifter's didn't have stats or saves carry over from gear (I think? I might be misremembering this), but I'll leave that issue for now.
what about the racial form edges, then? Ignoring the rest of it, I'm deeply curious how often those were chosen pre-EP change, and post. Randomness is one thing, but the requirements now for replacing a second tier form are brutal on a player, and they end up with a form of diminished usefulness since they've hit hero by that point.
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TMNS | Sat 17-Dec-16 03:17 PM |
Member since 10th Jun 2009
2670 posts
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#65810, "One on hand, I agree with you. On the other, I think y..."
In response to Reply #31
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1) Edges got nerfed hard. It was a long time coming, so I've taken it a lot better than most of the playerbase. But it was absurd that there were characters with 20+ edges routinely.
2) Any character can chose those edges StW or RtB when they hit the requirement. They don't have to be at hero. I understand what you're getting at, but what's the worst that can happen? You're stuck with a 2nd tier form for an extra 4-5 ranks when you get your final minor form. It's not that bad. Anyone who has power-ranked a shifter knows that you can "lose the lottery". ####, my last character to choose Roll the Bones did it at level 48, once I got my minor final form. And that was in the old system. All the shifter forms are pretty good, I keep telling people. Yeah, going double Utility sucks when you get Howler/Orang, but you knew that was a possibility going in.
3) Am I happy some edges have IMM xp requirements? No, I'm not. Am I happy with the edge system as a whole. No, but I feel better about it than I did 2 years ago, that's for sure.
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Warren | Sat 17-Dec-16 11:30 PM |
Member since 17th Dec 2012
396 posts
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#65821, "RE: For the record"
In response to Reply #8
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Consider that before these edges existed, you just took what you got, so I'm not entirely convinced every shapeshiftrr *needs* to be able to pick these edges.
Wow. This logic is so flawed man. I expect more from you!
I mean, lets just roll back the game a decade or so too.
I mean, not everyone had healthcare before, so I'm not entirely convinced every human NEEDS to have healthcare.
I mean, we never really had an immigration policy before, so I'm not entirety convinced every country NEEDS to have an immogration policy.
I mean, we never had to rehabilitate our prison population before, so I'm not entirely convinced that every prisoner NEEDS to have an education.
etc. etc.
But your first points were pretty good.
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