Do these new skills work in combat, or just to start it?

Does cleave work in combat now?

Just curious...

Some of the abilities (e.g. Vault) are starters; others can be used in or out (e.g. Charge of the Morosa) and others probably can only be used during combat. I forget which all is which.

I don't remember modifying cleave, though I know I thought about it.

Having not played the class (yet) I would still like to discuss a few things I was thinking about earlier...

It looks like to me that duergar just really truly became *the* race to be as an apal (not that they weren't already of course). However, the business with vault and charge of the morosa do make being a felar a bit better. I would like to recommend though that perhaps faceslash could be used by felar with only one dagger? After all, their claws would probably be more devastating for this kind of attack than any dagger ever could be (even a triple bladed one). In fact, maybe they could even do it completely unarmed... anyway, just one idea.

I'm not sure how this discrete-weapons required for skills is going to play out. The weaker races won't be able to carry enough different weapons in a practical manner, also, I think. May I suggest over time pondering partly merging the functionality of vault and charge of the morosa, and the flail spell with the whip skill? After all, getting vaulted with a polearm is going to be painful at best, and a whip and flail are similar enough that it should work interchangeably. The catch is, I mean like charge works for polearms and spears now, i.e. doesn't work as well with a spear, hence some incentive to still use the proper weapons.

Just trying to help in any case. Hope I succeeded!

I don't think the Imms added these to be all used by every AP. It's more of a bunch of different cleaves for different weapons, so Axe isn't the only desirable unholy weapon. While I'm sure you could 7 different weapons in a fight, I don't think that's what they were thinking when they put this in. Also giving spear and polearm and flail and whip both two abilities each is going to make them much more favored then the other weapons.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

I think you should play the class or at least see the skills in use before you decide they are/aren't versatile enough, or what race is best at all of them. You're making a lot of false assumptions.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Yeah I figured I might be, just throwing ideas out. I'll go ahead and test it sometime soon. You did a good job with these skills and I think they will go a long way towards improving the class. The hint at future power word spells is also very enticing indeed...

No message

No personal flames, please.

I have had the chance to see a few of the skills in action, and I'll admit at the least, they add some flair to the class. A dirty trick kind of feeling. My overall thoughts would be that they are some interesting skills, but in the end, I don't see them, overall, being very valuable or longlasting. Most of the skills ruin the ability to dual wield. Faceslash and crippling strike being the exceptions, and that's only assuming an offhand mace can be used. I think it is a safe assumption most APs won't bless a spear or polearm, ruining the ability to dual wield or use a shield. And unless APs have been granted the ability to dual-wield whips and flails finally, why would they bless one of those and be stuck with a bad parry weapon and shield? Now this is based on another assumption. Someone with say an axe for thier unholy weapon, is not likely to use another weapon for these skills if he has any decent amount of charges in his weapon, it doesn't seem like a good trade off. I'm sure someone will of course bless other weapons just to be different. I actually recall an arial with an unholy whip. So from about 36 on, you have four out of six new weapon abilities that the vast majority of APs I don't think will use. Maybe it's seems a little number crunching to you, just how I view things. On the best positive note I have to add, thank god for finally doing something with aura of despair. At least there's a reason for an AP to use it now.

One last thing. Saw an AP try to vault while he was on the ocean, missed and hurt himself, which was kind of amusing, but doesn't make sense for two reasons. One, he wasn't an arial, so getting into the air from a boat, or god forbid some driftwood, seems unlikely. Second, even if he could get some lift, could it really be high enough to hurt hitting water?

"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens." - Jimi Hendrix

It's likely fair to say that you've played as many high-ish level A-Ps as I have, several of which were reasonably successful. I'm aware of that, and don't take me as making light of the insight that comes from that below:

>I think it is a safe
>assumption most APs won't bless a spear or polearm, ruining
>the ability to dual wield or use a shield. And unless APs have
>been granted the ability to dual-wield whips and flails
>finally, why would they bless one of those and be stuck with a
>bad parry weapon and shield? Now this is based on another
>assumption. Someone with say an axe for thier unholy weapon,
>is not likely to use another weapon for these skills if he has
>any decent amount of charges in his weapon, it doesn't seem
>like a good trade off. I'm sure someone will of course bless
>other weapons just to be different. I actually recall an arial
>with an unholy whip. So from about 36 on, you have four out of
>six new weapon abilities that the vast majority of APs I don't
>think will use. Maybe it's seems a little number crunching to
>you, just how I view things.

I feel like, to a large degree, you've missed the point to adding the kinds of skills that we did to the anti-paladin class. You're looking at them from the view of the archetypal fire a-p who unholyblesses an axe. You're absolutely right, for such a character, they don't add very much. (Though, Magic Missile for Power Word Despondence is a great trade-up even there.)

In our view, the anti-paladin class wasn't weak -- it just wasn't very diverse or interesting. Virtually everyone was an axe A-P, partly because of cleave, partly because there actually are some merits to going with axe, partly because there are a whole lot of nice giant-appropriate axes available at the higher levels, and partly due to the Cult of Axe mentality. Now, even if you still think axe is the uberweapon, you have to admit that there are at least angles for other weapons to use the A-P skills. There may even be (perish the thought) fights that the felar A-P using a spear or polearm can win that a fire A-P with an axe couldn't.

An aside to other would-be A-Ps: It's probably worth keeping in mind that unholy blessing a weapon isn't like picking a weapon specialization. You're far from stuck with it for the life of your character. I can think of a lot of A-P combination angles of the form, "I wouldn't normally want to bless weapon type X with this kind of A-P, but if I had this and this and that piece of gear, then it would be a good idea." Come up with that combination of gear/cabal/allies/whatever? Go ahead and leech your bless over to take advantage of it. Don't have it anymore? No reason you can't go back to axe if you really want to do it.

As a further vague aside, ignoring the weapon-specific skills and gearing considerations for the moment, my choice weapon for an A-P wouldn't be axe. You're welcome to speculate on which it would be and why if you like.

>One last thing. Saw an AP try to vault while he was on the
>ocean, missed and hurt himself, which was kind of amusing, but
>doesn't make sense for two reasons.

Without giving away all of the fun details: Yes, we did consider the case of a water vault in designing the skill.

I agree the skills make the class different, mor interesting, however you want to look at it. I would practice them and use them before unholy blessing just because they were interesting. I'm just saying I wouldn't be likely to use lashes, ennervating spirits, etc etc later on in the APs life. Maybe it was designed that way, so you have a skill for whatever weapon you do bless, except hands of course. I agree that it easy to change over blessing on weapons, and regardless of what people say of skill being the determining factor in things, which overall it is, nice eq does make you consider the possibilities. I could see a pretty good reason to have a polearm as an unholy weapon now. It's just a matter of weighing the pros and cons. I still like the additions, regardless of how useful I think the skills will actually be. The trade off with the magic missiles...well, I don't think it was even a trade off. As Valg said, most people don't even practice them, so PWD is just a bonus spell rather than a replacement. Which I can think of several good uses for if I'm reading the helpfile right. Have to find out some day. The water vaulting...all I can say is, that is one hell of a belly flop. And as my last comment, I have rather publicly lamented the cookie cutter way every AP has choosen axe, so much so that people do not say unholy weapon, simply unholy axe. In fact, when I choose to use a sword instead, everyone, and I mean everyone, who spoke with me kept commenting on how an axe would be better for this and that, and why would I choose a sword blah blah blah. Personal taste accounts for alot.

"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens." - Jimi Hendrix

Mine would be a spear. A very nice spear.

*notes the quote from the Simpsons*

For the charge of the morosa, you need specify command (morosascharge) victim and charge time. Any chance of tweaking it a bit so if in combat you can skip the victim and it defaults to current target? Helpful if, say, theres two dwarves in the room and you toss one out of the room and hit the other before you can stop yourself. Or when someone with those names that sound like a drowning cat jumps you and you have to spell out Hxcaelijounif or some crap. Just my thought on it anyway.

"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens." - Jimi Hendrix

I'll confer with my associates and see if this would be a reasonably easy change.

>I'll confer with my associates and see if this would be a
>reasonably easy change.

I discovered that due to the need to assign a target, it makes charge of the morosa undoable when unable to see. Not sure if this was intentional or not.

Also, it appears to me that the skill never fails, at all.