I don't mind new changes and stuff. But, why not make a newer
change that allows people to practice faster?
So that then they can indeed spend more time RPing, PKing,
doing fun stuff. I understand this will take a huge sacrifice
of something that is obscured from my vision. 
Yes people like to see their skills perfected. Yes there are
people who perfect their skills no matter what. Yes there are
people who can survive/are sucessful w/o having all their
skills perfected. I agree this and I do not deny this. But how
will it harm the mud if you were to reduce the time there was
needed to perfect a skill? I am just wondering. I could
appreciate feedback but no feedback is ok too I guess. 

I don't say negate all the new changes. Like getting a higher
chance of improving a certain skill/spell if the mob is harder
for you to kill. I'm just wondering if you guys could make it
easier. I am not one of those guys who perfect all of their
skills etc, but I'm considering it ATM because some people do
that and they have an advantage over me in Pk and I would
prefer imensely having the advantage, also I do not have the
same ammount of time the people that perfect their skills
invest in it. 

I could post another rambling about the ranking but I think
I'll save this for later or I'll just let TSM post about it.

</LURK>

Dear Imms,

Have you seriously considered making the percentage numbers invisible? Perhaps have 3 descriptive word categories instead:

1% = "Not practiced"
2%-74% = "Practiced"
75%-100% = "Learned"


Hutto, the Sleepy Nitpicker

P.S. I see below where Zulgh mentions this, so I added 'seriously'. Would have to remove the improve messages too.

If this were going to be done I'd want more than just 3 catergories.
Something like this:

1% = "Not practiced"
2%-74% = "Practiced"
75%-90% = "Skilled"
91%-99% = "Confident"
100% = "Masterful"



This is, by no means, a suggestion that this will actually happen, but I personally like the idea.


-Mek

If you make a seperate category for 100% then people will just keep practicing until they get there. Sort of defeats the point. This might be preferable:

1% = "Not practiced"
2%-74% = "Practiced"
75%-84% = "Skilled"
85%-94% = "Confident"
95%-100% = "Masterful"

Or if you wanted to be more vague:

75%-90% = "Skilled"
91%-100% = "Confident"

This might suck for some skills. Disarm, etc. One would never know when to stop practicing a particular skill, even in the context of ranking. Suppose all my practicable skills are in the top category and I have to decide whether to trip or bash.

Maybe add a command whereby character could compare his ability at two different skills, similar to comparing weapons. This would have to be coded so that automatic-100% skills aren't comparable in order to prevent an easy perfection-test. Or else hardcode it so that auto-100% skills always compare as "better" than other skills, even if the other skills are at 100%.

Ex.

For a non-giant:
<prompt> compare trip bash
You are more skilled at bash than trip.

For a giant:
<prompt> compare trip bash
Bash is second nature to you.

<prompt> compare bash 'enhanced damage'
Both are second nature to you.

To make guildmasters a bit more helpful when someone asks about practicing in the guild.

eg. I'm on 35% in a skill, as a giant, and I try to practice. Guildmasters should teach me, BUT

If I'm on 74% in a skill (remember that I can't really tell), it would be helpful if guildmaster would say something like "I can only teach you a very little given your current level of skill)". Otherwise giants might blow practices for 1% in a skill.

Almost a dilemma, but not really. If you have 16 intelligence you will have 69% after 2 practices. Using a practice for 6% isn't the end of the world. If you have 23 intelligence, you get 71% after 1 practice. Using a practice to get to 75% isn't the end of the world.

The whole idea is to remove the focus from power-gaming.

But, should the powers that be decide this would be too beneficial for people in the know and not very newbie friendly, they could have the % show up below 75%, and just have a word description show up once someone hits 75%. This would let everyone be closer to equal footing on practicing with the guildmaster and still shift the focus away from columns of 100%.


Hutto, the Sleepy Nitpicker

Why not make it level based in much the same way that hit/damroll, stats, hp/mana/mv, ac, and saves are presented to the user...

That way, you almost get the best of both worlds:

1) The person still gets to know their % stats at a high enough level.
2) The reduction of spammy practice due to inability to determine what level something is at.

Plus the additional bonus of low level players not knowing so much about various things such as:

1) skills affecting other skill's percentages (i.e., berserk)
2) items that affect other skills percentages (i.e, that dagger that increases your stab ability by 10% for instance(*NOTE* I made this item up, please don't go looking for it.))
3) Exotic weapon skills are a bit more unknown.


I like the categories you've listed above, with the exception of the Masterful range. I'd just list Confident as 85%+:

1% = "Not practiced"
2%-60% = "Practiced"
61%-84% = "Skilled"
85%-100% = "Confident"

Then, after that, you present actual skill percentages at say...level level 35 (five ranks after you find out your actual HP numbers although most people know these anyway from level gains).

What this does is encourage ranking, discourage practicing past the confident level of what could be construed as 85% (it would suck imho to even consider trying to practice past the first time I saw Confident since who knows where you hit 100%?), and still gives level 30-35+ characters (where arguably, the class specific skills really get interesting for a lot of classes) the ability to bone up on what skills they find out they're struggling with. This assumes that again, practice improvement messages would be turned off, with the exception of the 'insight' messages necessary for invokers/assassins to learn their new skills.

It also assumes the whole thing is worth it. Arguable at best.

>This might suck for some skills. Disarm, etc. One would
>never know when to stop practicing a particular skill, even in
>the context of ranking. Suppose all my practicable skills are
>in the top category and I have to decide whether to trip or
>bash.

I think the Imms want to remove 'practicing' from the game, for the most part. You use the skills that best fit the fight at hand and your particular character's fighting style, and don't worry about the %. If your character tends to disarm when ranking and fighting, then, with time, his disarm skill will be better than someone that doesn't. You're not doing it to become better at it, you're doing it because that's what you do and it defines your character. If when fighting people you bash a lot, then your bash will be higher than someone just like you that doesn't bash a lot. Think of it as increased individuality. Only people that regularly use all their skills and spells over a long period of time will become better at all of them. True veterans.

The few places where you need to practice for a specific % before you gain a new skill (assassins, invokers, paladins) we already have echoes when you reach it, so you know you don't need to practice anymore. At least I think paladins do. Been too long since I've played one.

I'd lean against an echo for warriors. Rather than only wielding that polearm because you want to specialize, whip out your polearm sometimes because that's how your character likes to fight. If you can't specialize, tough luck you polearm-pretender.

If a cabal ever comes around like old Masters, these members could be given a way of telling what is at 100%. Perhaps their inner cabal guy could have a way of informing them. Other cabals can forget about how many 100% a character has and focus more on RP and actual skill (if that is something that interests them). In the meantime, wouldn't it be cool (read: exciting and risky) if more mages didn't have 100% word of recall?


Hutto, the Sleepy Nitpicker

.

People would still spam prac until they saw that 'Masterful' thing by their skills. Also people would count improvement messages until they had the required amounts. I think you people are a little nutty on the idea of getting rid of %'s, it's probably alot of work for Zulgh for basically no reward. It wouldn't change a damn thing about how the game was played.


Cheers.
Jhyrb.

I think the base assumption is you would get rid of all improvement messages if you moved to a descriptor instead of %.

How do you approach your skill improvements?

1) If it's not 100% I'm not showing my face in PK
2) Practiced it to 71%, that's good enough for me, where's that mage?!
3) Learned 1% parry while tanking a mob with my group. SWEET!
4) I don't care if bash is at 50%, I'm breaking it out
5) I only practice to get my new skills/spells

My beef is more with ranking than skill improvements.

I agree that, if heroing is made easy, we are going to have
the mid-20s duergar axe spec syndrome get bumped up to level
51.  Not something I would care for.  On the other hand, I do
think it takes too long to hero.  I’ve not had one in less
than 350 hours due to a number of factors.  Inability to find
a group, finding a group and then having it dissolve
immediately, aversion to repetitive mob-killing, etc.  My
current character is at level 30 in 70 hours and I’m
actually impressed that I’ve gone up so fast – this is
breakneck speed for me.  At this rate, I may hit hero in 150
hours (holy ####, no sarcasm that would be great, and at 8
hours per week we’re looking at the end of August.

All told, that’s about 4 months to hero playing one
character, which leads to my issue with the whole mess:

There are all these awesome skills and spells that the high
level characters get, and deservedly so.  My example will be
the warrior class.  When legacies came in, that was an awesome
addition to the game.  Out of the 26 cool new skills for the
warrior class, I’ve had three.  The IMMs put all this great
stuff in the game that I would love to try out, but my
schedule as a casual player prohibits that.  Why?  Because it
takes me, on average, 4 months to get those skills.  That’s
too long, in my book.

Abilities I’ve always wanted to try, but have not had the
time include at least four of the legacies (being reasonable
here), frightful fiend, shadow drag, PWK, a major shifter
form, among others.  That list right there represents a good 2
years of playing time IF I stuck with each character to
hero-range.  During which time, you guys will implement even
more cool abilities that will be queued up in a never-ending
line.

No these abilities shouldn’t be gained for nothing – doing
so vastly decreases their value.  As others have mentioned,
though, the casual player cannot hope to try even a fraction
of what CF has to offer at the higher levels due to the fact
that they can’t reach them in a reasonable amount of time.

Great job in making such a diverse game, but I’d really like
to try out a little bit more of it.

.

The real issue is the absurd amounts of time CF requires. It's a steep curve - you can't really do much on CF with less than, say, 6* hours a week. Moreover, the sucky parts of CF (ranking, prepping, etc.) are mostly fixed costs and come out of that six hours first. Why don't I play much anymore? I've got a job and school and I just don't have time to commit myself to ten+ hours a week to get a good character going.

* - Please don't bother nitpicking this number. If you disagree, substitute it with whatever number makes you happy.

CF tends to be a very insular community, which leads to rather warped expectations of time expenditure. Try telling a random friend you put 100 hours into one character in a game and see what the look you get is -- I guarantee it's not going to be "You heroed in 100 hours? How fast!". That's like six days of doing nothing but waking up and playing CF. Stop and think about that for a moment.

CF is trending towards a game that has 500 players who play an average of 20 hours a week rather than one that has 2000 who play 5 hours a week.

I think the imm dancing around on the practice issue is generally a coy response to the fact that they really don't mind it at all -- having more people logged in spam practicing is only to the good as far as they're concerned, since it stops "too few players on, log right back off" syndrome that starts creeping in at off hours, and it's probably more fun to be an immortal with 100 people on than 50. But I think this is shortsighted in the long run, because having robocop logged in for an extra 2 hours spamming a day is going to add far less to the game than the guy that was driven away and doesn't play his 1 hour a day.

The immortals are a group of intelligent people. I have no doubt that putting an end to the practicing "arms race" (which benefits people who have the time to undergo utter drudgery at the cost of people who don't have that much spare time but would like to play anyway) would take about an hour of their time, to close all the spam practice loopholes and create a system whereby only 'natural' increases in skills are viable. Certainly, there should be rewards brought on to those who play more, but I think CF has skewed way too far to the "power to those who play most" side and it's hurt the game and driven away casual players.

Bottom line, my solution: ranking isn't too bad, but it's time to replace the practice system with a realistic system that doesn't hurt people who don't have 900 hours to spam bash. Easiest solution that comes to mind is that there's a hidden timer after a skill improve where the same skill won't improve again (exception: spam required classes like invokers). Problem solved.

Who would lose if you make practicing easier?
I'm just wondering.

>Who would lose if you make practicing easier?
>I'm just wondering.

The concept of having skill % would.  May as well just give
everyone 100% at that point and be done with it.  Or I could
just take away improvement messages, and stop showing people
what their skill % is then they don't have to worry that their
bash skill is only 87%.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Actually, I might like that idea.

>>Who would lose if you make practicing easier?
>>I'm just wondering.

I think one of the things this question always reminds me of
is the whole concept of race and inherent learning.  If
everyone learned at the same rate, then it's a huge penalty to
elves(good and evil)/arials and human/half-elven who have
taken intelligence as their primary statistic.  These races
are SUPPOSED to learn better, they're supposed to have more
mind and less brawn than say, a giant.  This small issue is
meant to help balance them out against a giant or orc who, at
the same levels, can put on a good fight because the smarter
person should be more 'skilled' (i.e., land more skills, parry
better, dodge better) than the dumber stronger person who's
hitting less often for more damage.  If practicing were
easier, especially for those dumb races, that balance goes
right out the window and you have these insanely skilled
damage mongering orcs running around parrying everything in
sight at level 15.

In fact, that USED to be the way it was because of the amount
of time people would sit in the mists mastering parry with
their giants and orcs.  Thank god that's no longer the case. 
At least today if someone as a giant has their defenses
mastered at level 15, I can really feel sorry for them.

>
>The concept of having skill % would.  May as well just
give
>everyone 100% at that point and be done with it.  Or I
could
>just take away improvement messages, and stop showing
people
>what their skill % is then they don't have to worry that
their
>bash skill is only 87%.

Funny.  If you could do it for one day as a joke, I can
guarantee that this forum would light up like a christmas tree
with posts:  subjects: Please, please, please put back my
skill percentages!

::Funny.  If you could do it for one day as a joke, I can
guarantee that this forum would light up like a christmas
tree with posts:  subjects: Please, please, please put back
my skill percentages!

Either that or more people would just quit playing CF. 

Cheers.
Jhyrb.

I don't really agree with the above post that much.. as I
never go out of my way to practice things (dodge/parry) unless
I'm really bored. However, I would propose one thing to
lighten the burden of playing this game just a tad.

Before the Immortals get their spines up.. let me just explain
a bit. I have introduced about 5 people to this game. No, this
isn't really alot.. but listening to them afterwards and
putting it together with factoids and what not have given me a
greater understanding of the game. Currently, CF is great.
What makes it great is the involvement of immortals, cabals
and on top of it all - a perfect blend of RP and PK (at least
what I try to do). One thing that has stopped all but ONE of
my friends from playing and something that is almost always a
hair puller to me is the fact that ranking takes so damned
long. All I'm asking is that you do SOMETHING to ease the
ranking in this game. Averaging 150-200 hours to hero is..
slightly absurd. I find it always a bother to go up these
ranks, mindlessly mashing commands (as Valg has stated on this
thread) to do something which should be a little easier on the
mind. I think it'd be better for the game, even, if there were
more people in the hero ranks!

I'm sure this has been asked for plenty of times with various
reasons. If Immortals would rather discuss this with me in
email, please email me : hcm@clanpra.com so I can discuss this
in length. This subject is actually VERY important, because I
believe the time one takes to rank a character can really
affect the 'fun' in playing the game. Having a good role in
your head, putting a decent description and setting goals..
all hampered by the time it takes to hero (200 hours? :\).
Please reply. Thanks.

200 hours? The only characters I've had that needed 200 hours
were invokers, the rest average about 80. That's about a fifth
of the shortest lifespan. To head off the argument not
everyone can do it that quick, I'll use your hours as an
example. 200 hours is half the shortest lifespan. Yet just
stating these numbers doesn't take into account what is
actually involved in those hours. Do you spend a straight 200
hours mindlessly killing mobs? I hope not. During that time
you're doing other things, such as the PK and RP you
mentioned. So how many hours does it actually take of ranking
to hero? 100 maybe? Now we're down to a quarter of the
shortest life spent in reaching the pinnacle of your
profession. Does that seem unreasonable? Also, ranking doesn't
have to be mindless. It's alot of hours you can spend
practicing up those skills. If your groupmates have a problem
with that, kill them and find another group.

This is a repeating topic, yet I haven't heard any real good
reasons to change it yet, or even suggestions on what to
change it to. If someone suggested changing it so everyone can
hit hero in 40 hours I'm not sure if I would laugh or cry. The
hero range would be flooded with zero value characters. By
that I mean there is a minimal investment into the character,
so who cares what really happens since you can have another
hero pretty quick. I really don't believe something like that
wouldn't add to that blend of PK and RP you mentioned. I think
we would see alot of mass PKers that do nothing for the game
but hit hero and go on a rampage, delete and start the cycle
again. All in less time than the 200 hours it takes to hero
now.

The only 'reasons' I have for trying to propose this change is the fact that its a massive annoyance. I haven't EVER hero'd a character at 80 hours. This is not to say it can't be done, but one without OOC connections spends amples amount of time trying to find a group.. then ranking.. then keeping the group etc. The only facts I have to support this is that I do not know anyone with my attention span when it comes to these sort of things. Many people have been saying, on both the official and non-official, about the 'degrade of the playerbase'. I think this is one of the reasons.

I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to do some sneat RP shiz, but only to think that I'm gonna have to spend weeks attempting to hero my way up the ranks. I think this is a major obstacle that should maybe be levy'd a little bit. I'm not asking for 40 hour ranking.. I'm asking for maybe 1/3'd of what it is. So if somethign is worth 500 exp, make it worth 800. Something small like that, may very well change this game for the better. I know alot of the complaints for NEWBIE newbie's is that the ranking just takes too damn long. I think it's very possible to find a good mix of the burden of ranking now and chugging up the ranks without a problem. What would make this easier for me to propose would be for the immortal's to post why ranking is the way it is now.. which I'll be able to respond to and hopefully we can get something going =P

Thanks for responding

I haven't EVER hero'd a character at 80 hours. This is not to say it can't be done, but one without OOC connections spends amples amount of time trying to find a group.. then ranking.. then keeping the group etc.

You don't need OOC connections. Can't find a group? Go do some solo ranking on whatever mobs you can handle. You get xp and practice, and you can continue to look while you do it.

I'm not asking for 40 hour ranking.. I'm asking for maybe 1/3'd of
what it is.

If I'm reading this right, you are asking for 40 hour ranking. If average time to hero is 150 hours give or take, 1/3 would be 50 hours. Take into account power ranking and you have heroes in about 30 hours or so.

So if somethign is worth 500 exp, make it worth 800. Something small like that, may very well change this game for the better.

I wouldn't call that a small change really. Why not just go rank on those mobs that give you 800 xp? I know, those mobs are hard, don't have the right group, etc. Well, go for mobs worth less that die faster. Plenty of places to rank, with more possibilities coming on a fairly regular basis, something will work for you.

What would make this easier for me to propose would be for the immortal's to post why ranking is the way it is now.. which I'll be able to respond to and hopefully we can get something going =P

I already put a big reason in the last post. Having characters hero in a low amount of hours results in less long term characters since there isn't an investment of time in them. What about practicing too? You rank in a third of the time, you'll have only a third of the improvements. Then people will scream even louder that it's too much work to practice. I personally think the new commerce xp, xp gains from quests, xp boosts from imms, etc. is the way to go. Maybe it'll eventually end up where characters can get a decent percentage of their xp from these, but I don't see it ever dropping the average time below 100 hours.

All I am really asking for is the reduction in time it takes to rank. Wiether it be through extra XP on mobs, or less TNL's on the actual players.. anything will help. As for the reward system, it's appreciated but it's definately not a replacement.

Some people don't have alot of time to throw around on useless ranking (which it almost is, now). The only times I've ever been able to hero is when I am out of a job etc etc - HAVING TIME. I don't think this game should tend towards the people who have been playing longer.. it really does that enough already. As well, I'm not the best example.. however I think many will agree with me when I say that the ranking is one of the low spots on this MUD. Look on the latest poll on the main page. Only 4%!!! have started playing and continously played up to a year. This is showing you something...

The investment of time in a character should not come from ranking, period. It should come from RP and PK. TO me, knowing that I'm going to have to spend hours upon hours upon hours of mindless button mashing to get the appropriate skills (to PK with!) and the level to explore/get items (to RP with!) is such a drag that I almost want to stop playing at all. Yes, it's that frustrating :\

>The investment of time in a character should not come from
>ranking, period. It should come from RP and PK. TO me, knowing
>that I'm going to have to spend hours upon hours upon hours of
>mindless button mashing to get the appropriate skills (to PK
>with!) and the level to explore/get items (to RP with!) is
>such a drag that I almost want to stop playing at all. Yes,
>it's that frustrating :\

The investment comes in a couple of forms. Ranks. Skill percentages. Empowerment. Cabal membership. Virtues. Tattoos. In-character alliances and rivalries. Etc. Almost all of this is accrued incrementally before one actually reaches the 51st rank.

Maybe take a more Zen approach to things. In the ideal scenario you should be enjoying the character's existence over his/her entire lifespan. That means you're enjoying "being you" whether you're 11th rank or 51st rank. Obviously PK is pretty boring before about the 15th or 20th rank. Thankfully, those are the ranks that fly by the quickest. From 20th rank on I would characterize the PK aspect as "interesting", barring some classes that don't get their mojo until later.

So you have to spend X amount of hours killing mobs. Spread it out. Do some PK, do some ranking, do some RP. Explore rank-appropriate areas. While ranking, work on skills. Make a point of learning areas you're not yet completely familiar with. Role-play with your groupmates, insofar as that's possible.

It seems like you don't enjoy your characters until they hero, meaning you have to get all these ranking hours "out of the way" before you can actually have fun. That's just not a good way to be. Don't get me wrong, I want to hero as much as the next guy. I guess I just don't find the journey there quite so miserable.

Side note: one would think that if ranking were such a big pain in the ass we'd see more age/con deaths and less hero deletions. Just a thought.

Personally, I don't necessarily think that the total hours to reach hero is that huge a problem. More so given your arguements. However, multiple reviews have stated that Carrion Fields was not exactly 'newbie friendly'. Now no matter how much I like this MUD and adore the Imms for what they do.. I have to agree.

I am not saying that the Imms or players are rude or that sort of thing. What I am saying, is that gaining those 'lowbie' ranks was the biggest pain in the entirety of all my characters lives.

If there were to be anything done in regards to ranking, I would hope it at the least affected these ranks. The reason? The faster newbies get out of these ranks, the sooner they're willing to really invest the time it will take to reach hero and now that it is worth doing.

I do agree about the newbie love. In our efforts to keep expanding and making a game our players will love, things have become rather complex to anyone that hasn't already been playing here awhile. Yet we have done things, and are always talking over new ways, to make things as easy as possible on newbies without kneecapping them by making it so easy they are slaughtered as soon as they hit 11. A massive set of helpfiles, updates/additions to the academy, and the newbie channel are examples of this. I don't agree with making those newbie ranks easier to rank out of though. It takes away the protections given to newbies, as well as a good source of information (newbie channel). Those ranks are the time when they're learning the game at, hopefully, the lowest risk. If they die a lot in the process, they aren't so far along they can't roll another character and make it back up the ranks, hopefully qucker than before with what they've learned. The downside to this of course is they really don't get to experience many of the nicest things about CF until they are out of those ranks, which can sometimes take awhile. Best solution? We're always trying to come up with it.

Kobolds. Hear me out. Let them be rolled by newbies to get a real taste of the CF experience. Automatically start in PK range, killable by anyone of any rank. Max racial CON of 4.

Ahem.

You seem to think that you can't do "neat rp" whilst ranking. If course you can, and what's more, I'm far more likely to take a groupmate who makes the process of ranking more interesting, and up the time I spend ranking by 20%, than I am to take a guy who says nothing but deals a lot of damage.

Ranking is not separate to rp. Gaining in skill is part of the developement of fyour character. Similarly, ranking is not separate to pk. A huge amount of pk strategy revolves around catching people ranking or not being jumped whilst ranking.

I enjoy good ranking more than actually gaining ranks. I've never hit 40th level in a character, been playing off and on since '94. I enjoy adventuring, chatting, and exploring/questing more than pk or level acquisition. It's the journey, not the destination, in my book.

I don't understand what's so much better about being a hero, or why it's so popular that killing beasties with friends or temporary allies is a chore, instead of the fun. Maybe someone could explain what the temptation is?

>Please reply. Thanks.

Well, you did ask for it.

I'm going to limit myself to going in a different direction than I've seen thus far in this thread, rather than 'me too' all the things that've been said so far that I do agree with.

The fundamental disconnect seems to be this: For you, the real game seems to start at hero. For me, it's anything but.

I may have my biases there because I discovered, at some point, that if I had a character running around at hero, people would tend to know who it was, but in the lower levels I could keep my anonymity a very long time. CF ceased to be a race to rank to the top for me, if it ever was.

If ranking seems like an N hour rat race to hero, that's something I might be inclined to correct, but *not* by making it shorter. Rather, by making the journey more fun:

1) You shouldn't be able to auto-pilot ranking, or, if you do, it should be a relatively unrewarding choice. There are areas in the game in which one can choose to gain experience that are extremely dangerous, either because of a dangerous environment, high risk of PK, or relatively smart mobs. These should be the most rewarding, experience-wise. As an example, some of us remember when the Mausoleum first came in -- for the proper level range, you'd level twice as fast there as anywhere else in the game... but you'd also die just that fast if anyone in your group did something dumb. I assure you, levelling there was anything but boring.

2) Do people just not PK, RP, cabalraid, explore, etc. pre-hero anymore? If so, why not?

That's all I have time to post at the moment.

>The fundamental disconnect seems to be this: For you, the
>real game seems to start at hero. For me, it's anything but.

The idea that the game really begins at hero is a pretty common one. Part of it is balance concerns. True or not, I think people get the idea that the best overall game balance is at hero, where before that there's more mismatches.

Another aspect is power perception. Truest among mages, the lure of getting just another few ranks so you can use skill/spell X so you can kill people better is aluring, even though once you're there other people have gotten their next ability too. The instinct is to get your character to his most powerful in absolute terms before trying to kill everyone in sight.

Also, hero is a safer place to be in terms of game mechanics like con and experience loss. Dieing before hero, for any reason, has a permanent negative effect on your character. It doesn't take that much dieing to lose hp equivalent to a wear slot or two. Mob-deaths are much less unpleasant these days, but I know that whenever I'm not ranking it's somewhere in the back of my mind that I might mob-die and spend another hour or two trying to get it back.

>1) There are areas in the game in which one can choose to gain experience
> that are extremely dangerous, either because of a dangerous
>environment, high risk of PK, or relatively smart mobs. These
>should be the most rewarding, experience-wise.
....
> I assure you, levelling was anything but boring.

But finding a group that's even capable of going into a dangerous environment with any chance of success is very difficult. Generally when I log on there's at most 10-15 people visible on in my group range, about half are the opposite alignment, a few hate my cabal/race/ethos/religion/hair color, and the rest are already ranking. So it takes about 30-40 minutes of begging just to scrape together whatever reprobates couldn't find a group or have had their group dissolve. So taking said reprobates to a place where they have to behave intelligently is highly questionable. And that's assuming I'm not going to be the one that screws it up and gets everyone killed.

Additionally, you really need an appropriate skillset (or people with enough area knowledge to blow prep after prep) or you're just going to get run over in The Tough Places. If ranking there could happen with just any old collection of characters as long as they kept on their toes, that would be one thing, but that's not enough

I would say that finding a really good group happens once every 10 hours or so. Really good defined as *either* fun to rank with because of RP, or able to gain experience quickly. Getting both is like finding an unclaimed unicorn pendant sitting in market square.

>2) Do people just not PK, RP, cabalraid, explore, etc.
>pre-hero anymore? If so, why not?

Some people PK, but mostly people who have found a power plateau for their characters. Pincering duergar axe-specs for example.

People RP, but the general experience is that the RP at hero is much better, which leads to a vicious cycle where the people who want to RP try to get to hero, leaving only people who don't care about RP very much at lower ranks.

Some people cabalraid, but unless you're at or near hero you can't really kill an inner guardian very well, so all you can do is counter-raid.

Exploring is better now with reduced mob-death, but any time you're going to explore you know that you'd be that much better off exploring at +1 level in terms of killing mobs with stuff or just being able to survive difficulties to explore longer. And even reduced, mob-death is still frustrating enough that I'll never try to explore sub-hero. The question is why you would want to explore sub-hero when it's far more effective to do so at hero.

I'll admit it, pre-hero all I want to do is rank. I want to RP while I rank because otherwise it is painfully boring as opposed to merely tiresome. But I know that for me doing anything else extensively means a permanent loss of 50 to 100 hp at hero. But then again I really don't think I have the right mindset for serious PK in this game, and other people probably don't have that problem.

I should probably shut up before I exhaust my posts-per-month quota. But here goes. Generally, I agree with you. Some random comments.

>The idea that the game really begins at hero is a pretty
>common one. Part of it is balance concerns. True or not, I
>think people get the idea that the best overall game balance
>is at hero, where before that there's more mismatches.

Hmm. Maybe. But I think the game lends it self to mismatches regardless of rank. It's just a different set of classes involved in them at hero. Also people have more hp, more lag protection, more dam redux, and more means of getting away, meaning it's generally harder to kill someone who's trying not to get killed.

>Another aspect is power perception. Truest among mages, the
>lure of getting just another few ranks so you can use
>skill/spell X so you can kill people better is aluring, even
>though once you're there other people have gotten their next
>ability too. The instinct is to get your character to his
>most powerful in absolute terms before trying to kill everyone
>in sight.

And that would be a bad instinct. The first thing you said, though, is completely valid and makes sense. Hence the reason people rank-sit at certain ranks and not others.

>Also, hero is a safer place to be in terms of game mechanics
>like con and experience loss. Dieing before hero, for any
>reason, has a permanent negative effect on your character.

This is the primary reason I don't explore as a non-hero, unless it's an area I'm almost positive is appropriate for my rank.

>But finding a group that's even capable of going into a
>dangerous environment with any chance of success is very
>difficult.

True. It pays to learn how to lead in these areas. Unfortunately, this is something newbies will have to rely on veterans for, until such time as they learn these areas themselves.

>Additionally, you really need an appropriate skillset (or
>people with enough area knowledge to blow prep after prep) or
>you're just going to get run over in The Tough Places.

Again, true. If I can't assemble a particularly efficient group, I go somewhere less taxing. It tends to not be as quick, but at least I'm ranking.

>I would say that finding a really good group happens once
>every 10 hours or so. Really good defined as *either* fun to
>rank with because of RP, or able to gain experience quickly.

Agree. Likely due to their rarity, whenever I find competant and/or interesting groupmates I make a point to remember them and attempt to rank with them again in the future.

>Some people PK, but mostly people who have found a power
>plateau for their characters. Pincering duergar axe-specs for
>example.

Agreed. For some classes it doesn't "pay" to stop ranking at many points sub-hero, e.g. a shifter has little motivation to PK prior to receiving his first 4th-tier form. For most classes, though, there's some point at which PK becomes viable. For some the potency level may be more "spikey" than for others.

>People RP, but the general experience is that the RP at hero
>is much better, which leads to a vicious cycle where the
>people who want to RP try to get to hero, leaving only people
>who don't care about RP very much at lower ranks.

True, but unfortunate. Usually I don't enjoy standing around talking with people, even if they're great role-players. I have a role and I play it, but mostly it's revealed via my actions and the occasional comment to someone I've just killed or who just killed me. This sort of role-play can be done at any rank, since it's not typically dependent on someone else to role-play "back" at you.

>Some people cabalraid, but unless you're at or near hero you
>can't really kill an inner guardian very well, so all you can
>do is counter-raid.

Agreed. You can defend, though. To the point where it will probably get annoying. One of the problems with the Fortress when I was Captain is that we had so few mid-ranked members compared to Empire. Often we'd be more than capable of taking their item, but totally unable to retain it.

>I'll admit it, pre-hero all I want to do is rank. I want to
>RP while I rank because otherwise it is painfully boring as
>opposed to merely tiresome. But I know that for me doing
>anything else extensively means a permanent loss of 50 to 100
>hp at hero. But then again I really don't think I have the
>right mindset for serious PK in this game, and other people
>probably don't have that problem.

I'm pretty much the same, though I often break from ranking to check mobs for gear or hunt people. Depending on class I may rank sit a little, but not to the point of distending. I fully intend to hero every character I roll- the sitting is just a pleasant little diversion en route to lvl51.

As far as I can tell, nobody's saying that ranking via repetitive mob-killing is the greatest thing in the world. They are, however, saying that it's a "necessary evil" for a number of reasons. I can understand and empathisize with the argument that XP should be obtained more from "other" activities and less from mob-killing.

In particular I think exploration should be rewarded at a higher rate, though with the restrictions that ghosts get no exploration XP. I'd also consider altering the exploration XP system such that characters gain XP for "doing" things, in addition to just reaching certain rooms. The problem, though, is that if you've already done these things with past characters, re-doing them is about as boring as repetitive mob-killing. It just becomes repetitive room-visiting, quest-doing, etc.

Another idea (rife with problems, I know) would be to award XP for player-killing. This would allow players to rank using a method that's arguably more interesting than repetitive mob-killing. It would also make the rank-sitter's job more difficult, particularly those who sit just below hero range. There would have to be restrictions to prevent abuse, such as not rewarding multi-killing, but it *might* work. I'll discuss it with the relevant parties, just for grins, though it'll probably result in a fat pile of Nhiala steaks.

Another idea (rife with problems, I know) would be to award XP for player-killing.

Here is a link to an Implementor briefly explaining why that is not likely to happen. There are 4 other posts from Zulgh or I in there for more elaborate explanations.

And here I thought I was the person who usually didn't collect steaks. Rife with problems is an understatement.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>The fundamental disconnect seems to be this: For you, the
>real game seems to start at hero. For me, it's anything but.
>
>I may have my biases there because I discovered, at some
>point, that if I had a character running around at hero,
>people would tend to know who it was, but in the lower levels
>I could keep my anonymity a very long time. CF ceased to be a
>race to rank to the top for me, if it ever was.
>

I am in total agreeance with this. I hate hearing about Hero'ing in 40 Hours, or so. That's just (to me) leaving out so many things in your Character's life. I have played since right before the Purge, and yet I've had only a Handful of Hero's. Why ? I like the journey toward Hero. If I get more than 10 Ranks in one session (rare) I will leave the group and RP or Explore, or just do other things for awhile. Rank/Rank/Rank mentality gets so menotenous(?) and just plain boring for me.

Think about going to college and doing nothing but studiing and going to class for 18 hours a day, sleeping 6, and doing this for 8 years so that you could get your PhD. as quickly as possible. No social life, no time for family, no time for recreation and fun. What would you have, besides the Title. You've not taken time to use the skills and knowledge you have, so you are learning the practical side of things, when you should be a master of them. What about friends and family ? You'd have no friends, except the ones you were in class with, and the ones that you might make at your new job. Noone one the way up, none of the Nurses or 'little people' that you might call them, below you. So its you and your PhD comrades at that's it. I wouldn't call this a good life at all.

Summary ? I so much prefer the journey to Hero. Interacting all along the way, learning practical uses for my skills, and getting better at them in other situations. Hunting a little, being hunted, helping Hero's, helping Newbie's, helping myself to have a better, more rounded Character. Very few of my Characters are DEL. Most are AGE or CON, sometimes AUTO if I've taken up another interesting angle. There are tons of great character ideas out there, but sooo many of them burn out because they've not taken the time to enjoy the journey, and not have a Hero without any substance to them.

Everyone has a Goal. Mine is total enjoyment of a character, not just running to Hero as fast as possible, and trying to enjoy my character then.

-Cassman-

I need to remember that Ph.D. analogy. I took a somewhat meandering (but rewarding) path in grad school, but I knew a lot of people (*) who did the grad-school version of power-ranking- working in labs 90-100 hours per week, eating out of vending machines and cafeterias, letting their hygiene approach Neolithic standards, and routinely going a year without a date, let alone a relationship. I also knew a lot of people who kept fairly normal lives, and treated their graduate work like most people treat their job- an important commitment, and one that they liked doing, but not the only one.

Guess which group was more fun to hang out with?

CF is a game. There's no winner. You don't get lots of money or many womens (***) if you PK a bunch of people. At the end of the day, I think the game as a whole would profit if people would chill out about their characters a little and take the kind of approach you describe in your post.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

(*): My favorite example is a guy who insisted on putting everything on a giant dry-erase weekly planner. He'd have stuff like when to wake up, eat lunch, etc. The best part was that every week on Monday, there was a block of 30 minutes scheduled for "scheduling time". (We pointed out that there should be a fractal sub-block marked "Scheduling time for scheduling time", within which... (**)) We wondered if we could get him to do things by just writing them on the planner. 4:30-5:00: Dance like chimp. This is the person I think of when I read about someone doing some 90-hour simulation to determine if axe weight and charisma affect Trip.

(**): Quoth Zulgh: "To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion."

(***): Or mens, depending on your personal preferences.

So.

Once upon a time I was probably the biggest proponent of mid-level play, for the fun of it. RP, PK, raid and counter raid, all the way up through the mid levels. Pause for a while, have a blast, hero, and delete soon after.

The problem with your whole theory here, Nep, is distention. Distention ruined this method of play. Or at least it did if you're any good at it.

I agree with distention as an anti-newbie killer. But once you hit the low to mid twenties, that's not a no RP pk zone, and you CAN have a real affect in cabal politics and power brokering.

Equally, that's not really newbie-dom either.

I would suggest that distention either be nixed at level 25, or nixed for caballed characters (or both). Leave it to the imms and leaders to verify that someone is not a newbie-killing monkey, and is productively contributing to the cabal and RPing. If they aren't, kick them out, and let distention do its thing.

With distention as it is, you really cannot do anything other than meander up to hero. If you're any good and you pause - at all - you're going to be trying to trip heros as a level 30something thief.

Which, incidently, does not work


>
>>Please reply. Thanks.
>
>Well, you did ask for it.
>
>I'm going to limit myself to going in a different direction
>than I've seen thus far in this thread, rather than 'me too'
>all the things that've been said so far that I do agree with.
>
>The fundamental disconnect seems to be this: For you, the
>real game seems to start at hero. For me, it's anything but.
>
>I may have my biases there because I discovered, at some
>point, that if I had a character running around at hero,
>people would tend to know who it was, but in the lower levels
>I could keep my anonymity a very long time. CF ceased to be a
>race to rank to the top for me, if it ever was.
>
>If ranking seems like an N hour rat race to hero, that's
>something I might be inclined to correct, but *not* by making
>it shorter. Rather, by making the journey more fun:
>
>1) You shouldn't be able to auto-pilot ranking, or, if you do,
>it should be a relatively unrewarding choice. There are areas
>in the game in which one can choose to gain experience that
>are extremely dangerous, either because of a dangerous
>environment, high risk of PK, or relatively smart mobs. These
>should be the most rewarding, experience-wise. As an example,
>some of us remember when the Mausoleum first came in -- for
>the proper level range, you'd level twice as fast there as
>anywhere else in the game... but you'd also die just that fast
>if anyone in your group did something dumb. I assure you,
>levelling there was anything but boring.
>
>2) Do people just not PK, RP, cabalraid, explore, etc.
>pre-hero anymore? If so, why not?
>
>That's all I have time to post at the moment.
>

And I think it is, so I'll answer it.

If you are able to kill enough to distend, you are probably sitting in a range where the challenge is not nearly enough. You should be glad to distend and have some tougher opponents.

What's fun about shooting fish in a barrel?

Rank once every ten hours from 11 to 51, and you are not likely to distend in a fashion that will cause you problems after gaining each rank. That gives you 400 hours sub-hero. How is that not enough?

Sounds to me like you want to level sit at one of a few levels for ages, which is not the same as taking your time to hero. I bet you didn't decide to spend lots of time at the level just below that crucial skill or spell.

Yes, it was serious.

I've had caballed, tattooed characters reach level 25 in 20 hours - and accidently have their heart burst. Never stopping, at any level. More than one level an hour and still a heart burst.

I've had multiple characters in the late twenties to mid 30s, with 30-40 hours, with heros in range. Guess what? Your skills DO NOT WORK on heros. Period. It's not a matter of "Tougher foes" - once you distend more than a little you are done.

Fer'ex. I had a thief at 32 with human heros in range. I stalked a human shifter (lion/eagle) until I caught him in human form, without fly. Perfect time to cheapshot him to death, right? Situation couldn't get any better? I missed four trips before he noticed he was in combat and shifted lion. One round, dead.

Fluke? Nope. I have 100 misses in a row on trips against heros.

It is not mechanically possible for a level 30 to beat a hero. Even an afk hero. Invoker? One spell, you're dead. Major form? Yeah, right. Warrior? Funny. Paladin? Necro? Shaman? It gets worse and worse.

Now. Set the issue aside that 90% of the skill code in the game was never intended to be balanced outside a 10 level differential. In fact, several skills intentionally do much better or worse with a level differential to make them more useful for certain combinations or more useful against certain combinations. With distention there's a pretty good argument for changing that.

But, seriously. Once your pk range is heros... why the hell would you NOT race up to hero as fast as you could? Which is the topic of this discussion.

My point was not "Distention is bad" - my point was "Distention encourages racing to hero."

I rather like the "rank once every ten hours." In fact, that was about perfect with my preferred method of play. Only problem? At the low end, say you average 2-3 kills an hour. 3 of those 10 hour sessions and you're distened. 4-5 of them, you're seriously distended. By the time you get from 25 to 35 your pk range is all heros.

>And I think it is, so I'll answer it.
>
>If you are able to kill enough to distend, you are probably
>sitting in a range where the challenge is not nearly enough.
>You should be glad to distend and have some tougher
>opponents.
>
>What's fun about shooting fish in a barrel?
>
>Rank once every ten hours from 11 to 51, and you are not
>likely to distend in a fashion that will cause you problems
>after gaining each rank. That gives you 400 hours sub-hero.
>How is that not enough?
>
>Sounds to me like you want to level sit at one of a few levels
>for ages, which is not the same as taking your time to hero.
>I bet you didn't decide to spend lots of time at the level
>just below that crucial skill or spell.

>I rather like the "rank once every ten hours." In fact, that
>was about perfect with my preferred method of play. Only
>problem? At the low end, say you average 2-3 kills an hour. 3
>of those 10 hour sessions and you're distened. 4-5 of them,
>you're seriously distended. By the time you get from 25 to 35
>your pk range is all heros.

Distention code may mean that you can no longer operate in the manner you're accustomed to. For example, it may mean you'll have to become more selective about who you kill.

Also, 2-3/hour is pretty damn fast. If you hero'd in 100 hours and kept up that rate for the rest of your character's life, that'd be ~900-1350 kills. Considering not many people get over 200 in their lifetime, I'd say 0.5/hr is more accurate. Let's say that out of the 10 hours you hunt for 8 and rank for 2, earning enough xp in that 2 hours to gain one rank. Is 4 kills every 10 hours (plus a rank) really going to distend you so badly?

(I honestly don't know, but my suspicion is that it would not.)

Let me preface this post with:
I have a great deal of respect for you, Nhiala. As a character (we interacted. A good deal.) and as an OOC forum poster. You're too new of an Imm for me to say in that regard, but I think you'll do great.

Now. The response.

>Distention code may mean that you can no longer operate in the
>manner you're accustomed to. For example, it may mean you'll
>have to become more selective about who you kill.

This is wildly untrue and pure speculation. Speaking as someone that has distened to hero - repeatedly - with different classes the simple truth is:
More than half your skills/spells don't work at all
If you're a caster anything that goes against save vs spell is doomed
You have less than half the hp of anyone you fight

Selective is crap. Some classes, with level-bound primary skills, are doomed. Some classes, without level-bound primary skills, MIGHT be able to win a fight in ideal conditions.

I'm saying this as someone that has distened into hero, repeatedly. I'm saying this as someone who has won (three) fights as a high level 20 something or low 30 something against heros.

Think about a thief with cheapshot. Think about the easiest possible fight for a thief with cheapshot. (unprepped mage without fly, wielding a weapon they don't know). Think about thief with cheapshot catching a human shifter in human form without fly while wielding a sword (does it get any better?). Think about thief with cheapshot missing four trips in a row. Think about thief with cheapshot going splat in one round after shifter shifts. Think about getting a few levels


>Also, 2-3/hour is pretty damn fast. If you hero'd in 100
>hours and kept up that rate for the rest of your character's
>life, that'd be ~900-1350 kills. Considering not many people
>get over 200 in their lifetime, I'd say 0.5/hr is more
>accurate. Let's say that out of the 10 hours you hunt for 8
>and rank for 2, earning enough xp in that 2 hours to gain one
>rank. Is 4 kills every 10 hours (plus a rank) really going to
>distend you so badly?

Your math is flawed. 4 kills every 10 hours probably would not distend you. 10 kills/level would have you in hero range in less than 10 levels. 10 kills/level is VERY MUCH a reality, especially at the midranks. Midranks people are easier to find. PK range is larger - generally twice the size of the hero range. One person killing a group is very much a reality. Lots of factors. If you're good you can get 1 an hour without trying. 2-3 with very little effort. Especially if you quit when unopposed.

Story of my (all time) favorite character's life (mid-rank, barely post purge):
Log on.
wh pk. 20+ enemies. 5 "neutrals". 1 "ally".
Retrieve item. Kill 2-3 defenders.
Defend item. Kill 2-3 attackers.
Retrieve item again. Kill 1-2 defenders.
Rest of the cabal logs on now that the item is back. Whee.
Raid. Kill 1-2 defenders.
Raid someone else. Die to one blast. Oops.
Regear.
Interview.
Interview.
Go hunt. Kill 2-3 people.
Die to Justice/Arbiters.
Regear. Kill 1 person.
Go hunt. Kill 1 person.
wh pk. No one to kill.
quit
Time elapsed: 2-3 hours. Kills: 11. Deaths: 1-2.


> I honestly don't know, but my suspicion is that it would
>not.)

A lot of your averages are based on who turns up at hero. Historically most people that make a difference in the mid ranks don't end up heroing. Too much xp debt (not really a factor any more, so this may well change), too much con lost.

A lot of things driving those averages are just no longer true. I'd love to see a resurgance of mid-level play. As it is it's race to hero, pause to gank, race to hero. Whee

>Let me preface this post with:

You honey-tongued bastard.

>This is wildly untrue and pure speculation. Speaking as
>someone that has distened to hero - repeatedly - with
>different classes the simple truth is:
>More than half your skills/spells don't work at all

I think you misinterpreted what I meant. I meant that the distention code may force you to alter the way you play such that you never distend in the first place. If you suspect you can only kill N people per rank, work within those parameters. Rather than killing everyone you can, make certain the N people you kill are the ones which will provide the greatest benefit. In other words, be selective.

Without having experienced it personally, I can agree that once you distend 10+ ranks you're pretty much S.O.L. What I have trouble understanding is why, given knowledge of how unhealthy it is, you ever let yourself distend that far.

>Your math is flawed. 4 kills every 10 hours probably would not
>distend you. 10 kills/level would have you in hero range in
>less than 10 levels. 10 kills/level is VERY MUCH a reality,
>especially at the midranks.

I never said it can't be done. You seem to consider it axiomatic that a character must kill as many people as he can at all times. It isn't.

>Story of my (all time) favorite character's life (mid-rank,
>barely post purge):

Cabal stuff does complicate things since it may get you kills you never "intended". Not sure what to do about that. I guess if you're killing 2-3 people every time you visit an enemy cabal or defend your own cabal...maybe you content yourself with the fact that you're killing a ton of people and curtail your non-cabal-related hunting.

>You honey-tongued bastard.



>I think you misinterpreted what I meant. I meant that the
>distention code may force you to alter the way you play such
>that you never distend in the first place. If you suspect you
>can only kill N people per rank, work within those parameters.
> Rather than killing everyone you can, make certain the N
>people you kill are the ones which will provide the greatest
>benefit. In other words, be selective.

That's a great answer... when you intend to rank steadily (1 level/hour or more)

Again, I'm not really saying "distention is bad", what I am saying is that "distention is one factor that encourages racing to hero and discourages active rp/pk/cabal politics below hero.

Incidently, the other big one was 100k+ xp debts - which are gone now.

>You seem to consider it
>axiomatic that a character must kill as many people as he can
>at all times. It isn't.

You're right, I do. Simplest example is that when playing a rager I'm after all mages and cabal enemies as a first priority. When they're dead and all possible raiding is complete I go interview people, gear and level - generally in that order. It's part of what makes the character come to life. I'm very much of the school that the most vivid characters are RP/pk intertwined.

But the real point is not that I tend to be an extremist , it's that if you're going to lounge and meander your way through the mid levels it's for a combination of rp/pk and making a difference in cabal raiding (see multiple posts on: well, Maran can take the item but they can't hold it! No mid levels!). Which means that the bulk of your time is going to be spent fighting. Which means you'll be either busy condying or racking up kills (and distending. Badly.)

>Cabal stuff does complicate things since it may get you kills
>you never "intended". Not sure what to do about that. I
>guess if you're killing 2-3 people every time you visit an
>enemy cabal or defend your own cabal...maybe you content
>yourself with the fact that you're killing a ton of people and
>curtail your non-cabal-related hunting.

Even still... you're talking about no more than 1-2 raids/defends without distending a little. So you're talking about one night per level. Which, again, makes "meandering" impossible. You NEED to level steadily or you'll be paying for it.

Which is not, in and of itself, a bad thing. Personally, I would rather it wasn't like that - but I'm ok with it. My whole point is that distention is one reason you don't see mid-level play, and why everyone races to hero.

I love midlevel play. I totally agree with Nep's post. My whole point is that distention ruins midlevel play.

Just for a frame of reference:

<a href="http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=4&topic_id=3101&mesg_id=3101&listing_type=search">This was me. </a>

The point at which Shok was refering to was 150 hours, 60 of them at hero. I think his life broke down to:
30 hours - 1-30 (60ish kills, +tattoo, +induction)
40 hours - 30 (160ish kills, distended to hero, 200k xp hole)
60 hours - 40 (200ish kills, still distended!)
80 hours - stuck at 40 (220ish kills, still distended!)
90 hours - 40-51 (230ish kills, can't be distended!!!)
150 hours - 51 (300ish kills, +talon)
180 hours - 51 (320ish kills, autodeleted)

(all told, Jubair trained con something like 20 times. Ugh.)

He didn't go around hunting relentlessly, and he didn't multi-kill. In fact, anyone he killed was safe from him for the rest of that night. He was very much a "death purifies" type of Shokite - intentionally to give an otherwise hardline shokite a reason NOT to kill evil people (if he'd already killed them that night.) What he WAS in was the situation that between Balrahd (Hi! , Johan, Pohanad and a few others the entire Maran cabal was dramatically out numbered - especially at the mid ranks. But... the heros were good enough to successfully raid anyway, and leave him defending against huge ganks alone. Or retrieving against huge ganks, alone. Same situation as when you were mortal, I'd imagine... except you didn't have Jubair stuck somewhere between 30 and 40 to put the fear of god into the imperial hoards.

Cheers, memsahib.

- The Desert Rat

>Again, I'm not really saying "distention is bad", what I am
>saying is that "distention is one factor that encourages
>racing to hero and discourages active rp/pk/cabal politics
>below hero.

I'll go so far as to concede this: "distention is one factor that encourages characters capable of killing 3-4 people per hour to race to hero."

Guess I just suck, but I've never distended very badly. And not for lack of trying. Once I get 10 or so kills at a rank I'll start ranking again. Usually that takes several hours, and when I do start ranking I'll get more than a single rank in that session.

One question: could you repeat Jubair's experience in light of the thief revamp? That kill count was sort of...uh...ridiculous.

>You're right, I do. Simplest example is that when playing a
>rager I'm after all mages and cabal enemies as a first
>priority.

Sure. I'm not saying you should hold back from killing people that role-play dictates you kill. Typically, though, the people who complain about distention are playing uncaballed evils who're just killing for sport. Maybe that's an unfair characterization.

I'd also say that Balrahd's suggestion is a good one, i.e. that cabal raiding and/or retrieving should work to play down distention.

>I'll go so far as to concede this: "distention is one factor
>that encourages characters capable of killing 3-4 people
>per hour to race to hero."

You know, it's not so much 3-4/hour as it is more than 3-4/level. It doesn't much matter how long it takes you as it does that it forces you to level steadily.

If you're diong 3-4 an hour then you're equally needing to get at least a level an hour.

>Guess I just suck

Trolling for the vote of confidence? You don't suck. Far from it.

>One question: could you repeat Jubair's experience in light
>of the thief revamp? That kill count was sort
>of...uh...ridiculous.

I have - approximately - repeated Jubair's experience. In the last several years I've "fallen off the wagon" about once a year. Something similar probably 4 times in the last 4 years. Lots similar before that. Pre-distention, of course.

I honestly don't know (in light of the thief revamp). He certainly wasn't dependant on dual backstab or bind, and rarely backstabbed at all. I've heard blackjack works a bit better, and thugs still have cheapshot, knife, third, dual... and a few more tricks in their bag.

I'd imagine it's possible as a thug. The rest of the thieves seem to have other purposes than "solo-killer/anti-gank". Some utility, some better in groups. I haven't played a neo-thief. I haven't played against a neo-thief. I don't know

>Typically, though, the
>people who complain about distention are playing uncaballed
>evils who're just killing for sport.

Which is why Balrahd and I were kicking around various ideas to still prevent newbie-whacking, and this type of behavior, while permitting cabal-war active rp integrated midlevels.

>I'd also say that Balrahd's suggestion is a good one, i.e.
>that cabal raiding and/or retrieving should work to play down
>distention.

I like it too...

>A lot of things driving those averages are just no longer
>true. I'd love to see a resurgance of mid-level play. As it is
>it's race to hero, pause to gank, race to hero. Whee

My deal with distention is this:

1. I think it's obvious that distention is meant as some sort of punishment for level sitting and kicking the crap out of too many people while doing nothing else. I don't think anyone actually expects level 30 characters to compete with Heroes - and if they can't compete, it's a form of punishment.

2. I think the amount of people that actually get distended is relatively small because, frankly, most people aren't as skilled as you are.

3. I think the people who distention was meant to punish were those not as involved with cabal RP as you are - those who just sat at certain sweet spots and acted like bullies, killing the same less skilled people over and over. No RP purpose to the characters - just existed to PK and chose easy PK challenges.

So my solution to these concerns and your concerns is this:

Tweak distention so that it can be cured via two means: either (1) through leveling (like it can now) or (2) through retrieving/taking another cabal's item (each time you do it you can kill another couple people without distending and you must be caballed to benefit from this option).

Not the most original solution, but I think you have to recognize the utility of distention before you can remove it.

>1. I think it's obvious that distention is meant as some sort
>of punishment for level sitting and kicking the crap out of
>too many people while doing nothing else. I don't think
>anyone actually expects level 30 characters to compete with
>Heroes - and if they can't compete, it's a form of
>punishment.

I wouldn't say punishment, more of a solution to the newbie-whacking problem. But same deal.

>So my solution to these concerns and your concerns is this:
>
>Tweak distention so that it can be cured via two means:
>either (1) through leveling (like it can now) or (2) through
>retrieving/taking another cabal's item (each time you do it
>you can kill another couple people without distending and you
>must be caballed to benefit from this option).

Not bad at all. I like it. So you CAN play at mid levels, as long as you aren't farkin' around. Which makes Nep's point (which I love) valid again in today's world.

Reiterating for the masses reading this post - Neither Balrahd nor I are talking about distention as a problem. What we're basically saying is that distention is one reason that there is a race for hero and you don't see active mid-level play the way you used to.

Go read my reply to Nhiala just above this.

Hiya

Hi back to you. That's great you're still around and playing.

At some point, though, you'll have to re-explain to me how in the Hell you manage to kill that many people and why I max in the low 100's - after many hours.

In the last 2-3 years I've averaged "falling off the wagon" about once a year. Generally for ~(120-180) hours worth of one character.

>Hi back to you. That's great you're still around and playing.
>
>
>At some point, though, you'll have to re-explain to me how in
>the Hell you manage to kill that many people and why I max in
>the low 100's - after many hours.

Probably, if people are beating you, it's not because their characters' skills are higher than yours.

That's my opinion based on years of watching the game be played, and being able to check the skills of each player afterwards. You're welcome to disagree, but that disagreement will not necessarily influence policy.

I never said people are beating me. I only said that the person who has their skills perfected has an advantage, and since I prefer to have the advantage I'm going to perfect my skills so I'm not at a disadvantage
I'm not saying that this is necessarily going to win pks and such.

1) We're not going to make it so it's trivial to have 100% everything. That defeats the point of having ability values at all.

2) Having an overall easy system like the one you are suggesting favors trash throwaway characters. Having a system that rewards characters who have been around for more than a few hours encourages the kind of long-lived characters that people actually remember.

3) We're not interested in a game where everyone sits around mashing the same command for hours at a time, in no danger. Thus, we have a system that rewards people for going out and doing challenging stuff.

4) What Nep said. I giggle every time I see a character with 100% everything get thrashed by someone else with 63% or 75% everything. There's far more important things than skill-spam in learning this game, and they're all a hell of a lot more fun to do.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

This is sort of how I view practicing and ranking. It takes a slightly excessive ammount of time.

I think it takes way to long for things like defenses to go up. I've tanked the entire time for my groups up into the 30s and 40s and have not gotten close to perfecting defenses just through ranking. With out def's perfected, ranking goes even slower than it already does. Things don't have to happen SUPER fast, as you said it will pretty much undermine the reason for having a skill % system, but I really think its a little rediculous how slow rank/prac is, and you have to weigh the fun vs your game balance.

CF player base has been dropping, as I see it, in recent years. I personally know IRL 3 people who used to play CF, but have since quit because it takes way too long to learn skills and rank up. I don't think the majority of players enjoy speding as much time as is necessary to do it. Yes, you can power to hero in 30 or 40 hours, but thats not fun, and its still a rediculous ammount of time. Theres also people I know just from online who have also left because they don't want to invest the ammount of time it takes to practice and rank. Sure, its not NECESSARY, but people like to do well, and having higher % in skills HELPS that. You guys like to say "This guy kills everyone with 69% even when his foes have 100%" well, not everyone is "that guy". Some people are really good at PK, and some people suck. Instead of catering to "That guy", why not try and make it a bit more fun for everyone by making things improve a little quicker, and make mobs give a bit more EXP so ranking goes quicker?

CF has an amazing background, and awesome areas, there are some really fantastic and stand up Imms, and I can't think of a mud more well balanced than CF. But people still leave, and I think the time required for ranking/prac has a lot to do with that. I know its your game, and as imms have said before, if we don't like it, we can leave. But the problem is, people are taking your advice and leaving. The player base smaller makes ranking a little harder, since you can't find groups as easily, it'll just kinda snow ball, getting slowly worse..so please, talk among each other, I'm sure another little boost to practicing will be well recieved by all and make the game a little more fun. People can spend more time RPing and fighting and exploring and just having an all around good time. I think we would see more quality chars this way as well, because people wouldn't lose interest in a character's RP so quickly either through the monotony of rank/practice. Theres only so much you can talk about through 40ish hours of ranking (and thats being generous, I'm sure most people take way more than 40 hours worth of ranking to hero).

Anyway, I didn't really form much of an argument, but I just thought I'd tell you what I've seen, how I feel, and what many other people have agreed with me about. I didn't get much sleep so excuse my rambling and any spelling grammar mistakes.



miken

Just a thought. "That guy" who's whipping ass with straight 69%s? Under your system he'll be running around with stuff perfected. As much as your improved skills might help you, they're also going to help the guy beating you down.

The argument you seem to be making is that it takes too long to rank (due to not having perfected defenses). Is it that you don't enjoy sub-hero charcters, or that you just don't like having to spend the time to rank up?

>
>The argument you seem to be making is that it takes too long
>to rank (due to not having perfected defenses). Is it that
>you don't enjoy sub-hero charcters, or that you just don't
>like having to spend the time to rank up?

I don't like having to spend the time to rank up.

De-flamed. Love, Moderator.

In Valg’s original post in the thread she said, "There's far more important things than skill-spam in learning this game, and they're all a hell of a lot more fun to do."
Like what? Prep harvesting? Yeah, that’s wicked fun.

You state what my point is incorrectly. The point wasn't that it takes to long to rank because of unpractised defences, it was that ranking and practice take too long, period. The amount of time necessary to invest is a lot of wasted time, and I said that is one reason why the player base is dropping. I can do this one as well!:
So, from all your above posts, I can assume your point is that you're bitter far before your time and want to make all mortals suffer through drudgery because you're an evil, vindictive, and generally sinister (wo)man.

Lastly, this is a real nice one by the way, you ask me what we call a "loaded question". That’s when you ask a question where I have two possible answers, and both make me sound like an idiot. I'm neither saying that I don't enjoy sub hero characters, nor that I don't like having to spend time to rank up. I enjoy sub hero chars, but I like to enjoy the whole spectrum. The time it currently takes to rank, I think is a bit much. I've never hero'd a char in less than 100 hours, which I don't mind at all. But too much of that 100 hours was spent ranking. It’s not the hours playing the char I mind, it’s the excessive (in my view) hours that are necessary to rank. I bet you guessed that I could do your loaded question thing too:
So, are you horribly wrong on this issue? Or have you just been stupefied by my overpowering sexual energy?


miken

P.S. I don't think this is a flame-deletable-offence, as I just followed the post format provided by Nhiala.

>In Valg’s original post in the thread she said, "There's far
>more important things than skill-spam in learning this game,
>and they're all a hell of a lot more fun to do."
>Like what? Prep harvesting? Yeah, that’s wicked fun.

Valguarnera is a dude. And I can only assume he was referring to what people typically enjoy doing: PK, RP, exploring.

>You state what my point is incorrectly. The point wasn't that
>it takes to long to rank because of unpractised defences, it
>was that ranking and practice take too long, period.

Maybe it's a question of degree, then. How long is too long? My characters typically take around 100 hours to hero, but much of that is spent hunting, killing mobs for gear, doing cabal/religion stuff, etc. I'd guess no more than 50 hours of it is spent killing mobs for xp. So if I play the character out then I've maybe spent 10% of his life ranking.

Let's not forget the "benefits", by the way. Ranking is a convenient way to practice skills, assuming you're conscientious enough to make use of it. All else being equal, if my ranking time were cut in half then my practice time would probably increase by about the same amount. Ranking also places characters in vulnerable positions whereby they can be hunted and killed, which is helpful for characters who like to hunt and kill. Ranking forces classes that are powerful at the higher ranks to spend some time being not-so-powerful.

>The amount of time necessary to invest is a lot of wasted time,
>and I said that is one reason why the player base is dropping.

1. The playerbase may be smaller now, but I'm not sure I'd call it a significant drop. For most of the time I've been playing it has been rare to see over 100 players. Now we seem to peak around 85. That's hardly the end of the world.

2. It's arguably easier to rank now than it ever has been. There are more ranking areas, and death no longer carries the penalty it once did. Warriors have been boosted.

Despite all the changes to practicing, time to hero hasn't seemed to change much. You're isolating one variable, but the reality is much more complex. Some points you are omitting:

- The total number of areas has slightly increased, and a larger percentage of our area base is suitable for ranking. This means you have more choices, which decreases your chance of being found at the same time it allows you to more closely optimize your ranking based on your particular resources. This is huge.
- The penalty for dying is much lower than it used to be. It used to be the case that a bad day could mean the equivalent of having to gain 5 extra levels or more. Now, the worst case scenario is basically having to start over on your current level, possibly with slightly less CON. (And the CON issue can be partially resolved with gear.. see below.)
- More alternative experience bonuses have crept into the game. The number of quests which award experience is much larger. Exploration, cabal raiding, commerce, and roleplay all chip in. This will be a continuing trend, so that becoming a hero isn't just about how many monsters you've slain. Currently, I'd estimate that skilled players can easily earn 5-10% of their hero XP this way. Frankly, I'd be comfortable with that number being 25% or higher as long as the challenge remains. (Which is why we introduce them slowly.)
- Gear has gotten a lot stronger with time. The area review team expends a lot of effort making sure new areas introduce some (but not too much) useful gear. A lot of our older areas (many of which have been retired) would have five or less objects of any type in them, let alone useful ones. A lot of our newer areas have upwards of fifty, and it's not uncommon to see ten or more in widespread use, once people have had time to adjust and learn the newer places. Also, we've added a lot of items to older, well-written areas that we do want to keep.

In summary, I don't buy that getting to hero is harder than it used to be when you look at the overall picture. Quoting you:

Theres only so much you can talk about through 40ish hours of ranking (and thats being generous, I'm sure most people take way more than 40 hours worth of ranking to hero).

I've never gotten a character to hero in 40 hours. I'm not sure if there was ever a time in CF when that was common. I know rare counterexamples exist (usually taking advantage of imbalances, permagroups, or the like), but I remember reading logs when I started playing, and figuring out that 100 hours to hero was pretty normal for an average player.

It's also not the case that the majority of players feel that the changes to practicing have harmed them. I've browsed recent discussions on unofficial forums (*), and I'm seeing more authors in favor of them than against. I'm also seeing a few people posting over and over with the same "Gimme easy stuff!" and "I wanna hero in 14 minutes or I'm going to cry and leave!" arguments that the staff hasn't been buying into.

Frankly, I think the driving force for the anti-practice change is twofold:

1) Players who think they are entitled to win every PK and hero in an afternoon. Back in the old days, game balance was pretty rough, and it was possible for an experienced player to wipe the floor with their PK range by exploiting a few simple methods. This was especially true because a few of these players basically ran around with their seven other computer lab friends and permagank anyone else. Nowadays, even damn good people take their lumps.
2) New or less skilled players who take whoopings, and decide to blame their skill percentages. This is a degenerative spiral, because those same new players become convinced that the way to improve is to sit in a corner and spam, rather than go out and actually learn something about how to play.

(*) Despite the fact that these sorts of forums encourage and skew towards negativity, to make a vast understatement.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

"New or less skilled players who take whoopings, and decide to blame their skill percentages. This is a degenerative spiral, because those same new players become convinced that the way to improve is to sit in a corner and spam, rather than go out and actually learn something about how to play."


Depends on the class, a communer class does not have to spam anything really. Neither does mages to a certain degree(invokers being the exception of course).

But as a fighting class it is obvious in my experience that if I spend x amount of hours with my defenses and weapons I will do better. A thief that does not practice defenses at low ranks but instead happens to find a nice group with a great tank and ranks away some ranks will get much rougher time at hero with low defenses. And they sure wont budge much up there.

It is different for those fighting classes that depend on brute force, like a giant. Dont need to parry all that much as long as you have heavy axes, but for those who depend on agility the difference between not practiced and practiced is enormous.

And sure, tactics, preps and what not is essential to win. But _I_ wont do anything different tactics wise if I have a guy that has good skills, it is just an advantage. Look at Grottimgesh, really kick ass and utilized almost the max of the class combo. Of course he will practice also, because else he would handicap himself against others.

Not saying the solution is to make practice easier, just saying that skills matters alot even though you guys seems to think the opposite. And I dont know what it adds gameplay wise to keep hindering people to practice defenses.

>1) We're not going to make it so it's trivial to have 100%
>everything. That defeats the point of having ability values
>at all.

how about 100% dodge/parry/shield block

>2) Having an overall easy system like the one you are
>suggesting favors trash throwaway characters. Having a system
>that rewards characters who have been around for more than a
>few hours encourages the kind of long-lived characters that
>people actually remember.
>

Yes, I'll look back on the hours (days?!) of ranking and smile fondly.

>3) We're not interested in a game where everyone sits around
>mashing the same command for hours at a time, in no danger.
>Thus, we have a system that rewards people for going out and
>doing challenging stuff.
>

If skills don't matter that much, you could just give everyone 100% skills faster, and then everyone could be happy.

>4) What Nep said. I giggle every time I see a character with
>100% everything get thrashed by someone else with 63% or 75%
>everything. There's far more important things than skill-spam
>in learning this game, and they're all a hell of a lot more
>fun to do.

So it doesn't matter, you're just making it take longer .. for the sake of making it take longer.

Thanks a lot.

No.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>No.
>
>valguarnera@carrionfields.com
Do you not want to implement this because you will lose the long time "argument" and it's going to hurt your self esteem? I know that would suck but that would also get some of the playerbase back... maybe you should consider it as a something players suggest to improve the mud and not to attack the imms with? Because this is teh way I'm seeing it you might see it otherwise

>>No.
>>
>>valguarnera@carrionfields.com
>Do you not want to implement this because you will lose the
>long time "argument" and it's going to hurt your self esteem?
>I know that would suck but that would also get some of the
>playerbase back... maybe you should consider it as a something
>players suggest to improve the mud and not to attack the imms
>with? Because this is teh way I'm seeing it you might see it
>otherwise
>

Eh, to be honest, no

>Eh, to be honest, no
>
Uh allright, but no to what?

Would you honestly enjoy the game more if characters were given straight 100s at creation?

How about if you could just roll a lvl51 character right off the bat. Would that be more fun?

Think about the dynamics of how such a game would work.

Maybe I woudln't enjoy if characters were given straight 100s at creation but I don't enjoy spending a carpload of time praccing, yes you can beat people otherwise, by gathering preps, while praccing is one time thing, ye're done with it once you don't have to be thinking about it ever again, till you roll a new char, while gathering preps isn't quite that Also there're other alternatives and stuff. But is the new system so good? Facts are people are leaving. I know not all of 'em leave because it's harder to practice now but most of them do.

Facts are people are leaving. I know not all of 'em leave because it's harder to practice now but most of them do.

Personally, I think it's quite impressive that in a time when:
- Commercial mass-market graphical RPGs are out there, right in our genre
- PCs, Xbox, PS2, GameCube, and other platforms offer a limitless variety of other multiplayer gaming
- Large companies have entered (and done well in some cases) the text-based MUD genre with large startup budgets and advertising outlays
- Most games have walkthroughs, cheat codes, etc... and even without them you can "win" in a long weekend

... that an all-text, highly challenging, free game that you can't "win", staffed entirely by volunteers still exists, let alone at 80%+ of its lifetime average playerbase. Frankly, we do a pathetic job of advertising (I promise this will change), and somehow we still haven't suffered much.

Why? Because we have great content. It's really that simple. We're not a MMORPG. We're not trying to be a MMORPG. We know we're a niche product. Our niche may shrink a little, but that doesn't necessarily mean we start offering a more bland, easy-to-digest product to expand that niche.

I read a book a week, sometimes two. I own a DVD player, digital cable, DSL, etc. My income is comfortable, and I could easily afford all sorts of hobbies. My job has fairly structured hours, and I have time for various hobbies. Why do I usually read books instead of going to the movies, renting DVDs, or watching whatever the networks cough (*) onto the TV each week? Content. Why is CF one of my other hobbies, as it was before I was on staff? Content.

(*) I except HBO from that unflattering verb. HBO original programming is a wonderful thing.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>Personally, I think it's quite impressive that in a time
>when:

snip: I can't respond to this in any sort of positive way, but I did read it.

>Why? Because we have great content. It's really that
>simple. We're not a MMORPG. We're not trying to be a MMORPG.
> We know we're a niche product. Our niche may shrink a
>little, but that doesn't necessarily mean we start offering a
>more bland, easy-to-digest product to expand that niche.

What does any of this have to do with "the players would like to spend less time ranking", or "the players would like to practice their defenses".

You have completely dodged the issue, or I do not understand how these are related.


>
>I read a book a week, sometimes two. I own a DVD player,
>digital cable, DSL, etc. My income is comfortable, and I
>could easily afford all sorts of hobbies. My job has fairly
>structured hours, and I have time for various hobbies. Why do
>I usually read books instead of going to the movies, renting
>DVDs, or watching whatever the networks cough (*) onto the TV
>each week? Content. Why is CF one of my other hobbies, as it
>was before I was on staff? Content.

ok.. are you willing to accept at the very least, that your mindset is maybe not the same as every player on this mud?

What is CF to you? Maybe I could understand your point of view as a person.

> *) I except HBO from that unflattering verb. HBO original
>programming is a wonderful thing.
>
>valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I mean seriously, isn't this what politicians call a straw man or whatever?

<hr>
I'll use I instead of we*

I understand you think you're doing a good job in a tough market (which is what I draw from the above post.)

I agree for the most part, which is why I'm still playing, eh?

I think that you guys are forgetting other aspects of the game that drew a lot of people to the game - and because we cannot <b>prove</b> something is wrong, you won't admit it. (You're right, there is no way to win at CF.)

I just really really don't think you are seeing the game from a player's point of view, and that you seem to dodge questions when we try to see your point of view.

I think this is a complex issue, and as such, it is very easy to sidestep the issues, and conclude with posts like this that seem to prove in your mind that everything about CF is great.

You have completely dodged the issue, or I do not understand how these are related.

Please read posts before replying to them.

This post has to do with the claim that CF is somehow losing players because of some concern with ranking or practicing. My rebuttal is that there are a lot of other factors in play, and that CF is in fact doing quite well considering the market.

What does any of this have to do with "the players would like to spend less time ranking", or "the players would like to practice their defenses"

It doesn't. I've written pages about that elsewhere in this thread. This was an independent thought, so I gave it a unique subject and organized it as its own post. I'm sorry if that was too complicated.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>This post has to do with the claim that CF is somehow losing players because of some concern with ranking or practicing. My rebuttal is that there are a lot of other factors in play, and that CF is in fact doing quite well considering the market.

CF would lose a lot less players if you didn't make it so hard for casual players to enjoy the perks of being higher level. Like Nivek, it takes me 350 hours to reach hero for various reasons. Most of what I find enjoyable is 'up there.' But most of the time it just isn't plausible for me to spend that kind of time. Whether there are other factors in play or not doesn't change the fact that we have a helluva lot less players than we used to, and a lot of people I knew left because the game is getting too much of a hassle.

eat CF every day.

What in god's green earth could make it take 350 hours for you to hero a character? That's truly mind-blowing. I know you're not a newbie, so that can't be it.

Are doing other "fun" things during those 350 hours besides ranking? i.e. player-killing, role-playing, exploring, etc.?

Are you imposing restrictions on yourself that make ranking particularly slow?

Do you only play high-penalty combos?

I just don't get it.

A 7 shield invoker can be heroed in less than 200 hours. Easily in fact. I have no clue what takes more time than a 7 shield invoker.

>I know you're not a newbie, so that can't be it.

I wouldn't go that far!


Anyway, I dunno. Killing, roleplaying, exploring. Spending time in useless groups.

When you say things like this the force of my argument falls through.

Really, though, I and a lot of people have the most enjoyment at the top. Logistically or not, it seems like a huge, boring walk upward at times, and I do wish it didn't take so damn long.

Triple experience per kill.



eat CF every day.

.

>Facts are people are leaving. I know not all
>of 'em leave because it's harder to practice now but most of
>them do.

This is anecdotal evidence. Its like saying "My grandfather ate red meat for every meal and smoked a carton of cigarettes a day. He lived to be 100. Hence, the American Heart Association is wrong when they say those things are likely to lead to heart disease."

You know of 3 people who left. You say they all left because it was too time consuming to practice.

How many people total have left in the past year? In the past 6 months? 1 month? How many players are leaving per day? If people were jumping ship as quickly as you say the mud would have no players right now.

Why don't you just stick with the fact that *you* are unhappy with the current system? Let others who are also unhappy chime in. But making generalizations and speaking for the playerbase at large (using "facts" that you have no data to back up) just makes your argument seem weak.

>You know of 3 people who left. You say they all left because
>it was too time consuming to practice.
>
>How many people total have left in the past year? In the past
>6 months? 1 month? How many players are leaving per day? If
>people were jumping ship as quickly as you say the mud would
>have no players right now.
>
>Why don't you just stick with the fact that *you* are unhappy
>with the current system? Let others who are also unhappy chime
>in. But making generalizations and speaking for the playerbase
>at large (using "facts" that you have no data to back up) just
>makes your argument seem weak.
>
I am just stating facts not assuming. And I know at _least_ 10 people who would like the changes to happen, that's just the people I know about asuming I know about 15 people who play CF 10/15*100=66.67% majority. Hence I'm making the asumptions. That even 50% would like to see it changed, Basically I"m taking the numbers outa my ass. I didn't count the people who would these implements seen. But there are a lot. Trust me. And wtf are you flaming for? I'm too intoxicated/lazy right now to do the calculations. I can do 'em tomorrow if that makes ye happy.

>And wtf are you flaming for? I'm too intoxicated/lazy right
>now to do the calculations. I can do 'em tomorrow if that
>makes ye happy.

Sorry if it sounded like a flame. I just think that the whole argument would be stronger if everybody who hated the new system posted for themselves. 75 people responding giving reasons why they didn't like the new system is better than 1 person saying the 75 feel the way they do.

I'm too intoxicated/lazy right now to do the calculations.

Honestly, I don't understand the majority of your posts. Perhaps it is a good idea to find other activities while intoxicated besides writing lots of forum posts.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>Would you honestly enjoy the game more if characters were
>given straight 100s at creation?

Zoder's from Missouri

>How about if you could just roll a lvl51 character right off
>the bat. Would that be more fun?
>
>Think about the dynamics of how such a game would work.

How about if my mage could parry a little better.

How about if it took 2/3 the time to rank.

>How about if it took 2/3 the time to rank.

That's a fairly modest reduction. Not something I'd expect to be such a "big deal". My guess you'd see the game become top-heavy with heros, and the sorts of people who master skills would have to up the time they spend doing dedicated practicing (since there would be less opportunity to learn while ranking).

Out of curiosity, how did you arrive at the 2/3 figure? I mean, why not make it take 1/3 the time? 1/4? At some point it becomes trivial to hero a character, which I hope you would agree is a bad thing.

>>How about if it took 2/3 the time to rank.
>
>That's a fairly modest reduction. Not something I'd expect to
>be such a "big deal". My guess you'd see the game become
>top-heavy with heros, and the sorts of people who master
>skills would have to up the time they spend doing dedicated
>practicing (since there would be less opportunity to learn
>while ranking).
>
Then again, we come to the point why not make practicing easier then? It's kinda dead circle.

Why do you make the worst arguments ever? Its not so black and white as you make it seem. We aren't asking for pre 51 100% chars, just to make it a little faster, as the time necessary is a little much. I can play the polar opposite game as well! Why don't you just make it so that theres no chance for skills to go up any more often than one skill per every hour of play time, and make it only a 1 in 100 chance that it will go up? Thats no way to argue. Its rediculous.

miken

I regularly have fights where my skills go up two or three times without ten rounds, and that's even with fire aps.

While we're at it, let's remove object limits, give everyone a sweet set of gear and turn 'em loose. There are muds out there that offer 100% or rapid skill advancement. If that's your thing, there's about three other people at those places you can test your mad skillz with. Otherwise you work for what you get, it adds value to the accomplishments.

>While we're at it, let's remove object limits, give everyone
>a sweet set of gear and turn 'em loose. There are muds out
>there that offer 100% or rapid skill advancement. If that's
>your thing, there's about three other people at those places
>you can test your mad skillz with. Otherwise you work for what
>you get, it adds value to the accomplishments.

Hey you know, you're right. This post has really opened my eyes.

I used to play on a mud that took many players YEARS to hero on, and that was a real accomplishment.

3 or 4 months isn't so long, really.. do you think you guys could lower the xp levels on mobs a little so I could spend more time ranking?

You want to discuss something and try to make a change, sarcasm won't help your effort. Here's a few tips to actually put weight behind your argument.

1) Be serious. I don't need to hear your attempts at humor or being a wiseass that just detract from the point.

2) Use actual examples, instead of just saying you don't like something because it's work.

3) Have actual suggestions. You don't like something, and you have reasons besides it's work and you're lazy, suggest something else.

4) Try to actually see things from more than just your own view.

5) Reread what you write before posting it. If it seems pointless, whiney, counter-productive, etc., than it probably is.

Follow these and I would be more inclined to take something you post seriously.

>1) Be serious. I don't need to hear your attempts at humor or
>being a wiseass that just detract from the point.

Past efforts with this have proven futile.

>2) Use actual examples, instead of just saying you don't like
>something because it's work.

Let's refer to Phaelim's post, shall we?


>3) Have actual suggestions. You don't like something, and you
>have reasons besides it's work and you're lazy, suggest
>something else.

ok, look this is going to tie into the response to point 4.

>4) Try to actually see things from more than just your own
>view.

I have posted more then twice in the past, asking immortals to explain their point of view, i.e., what the driving ideals behind their actions are.
<hr>
Here's what I do not understand about the immortal point of view:

Do you guys enjoy ranking? Do you recognize that a lot of people seem to have the same complaints?

I am complaining because I think the game takes too much work, and I'm basing that on the amount of work it took in the past.

Yes, I am a little lazy. I really, really hate busywork. Do you?!

I'm trying to point out that there is a LOT of work that exists in this game only because the imms have made it that way.

Here is my thought process regarding the above post:

"Does he really think that spending more time makes chars more memorable?! Well.. OK, I don't agree with that, but maybe it does. So.. if I take that one step further, that would mean that the longer I spend on a char, the more memorable it would be ( That seems to be a common goal between me and you. ) ..

Well, that seems ridiculous to me (and I do have a char with 8k hours or so still floating around another mud), but.. OK, I guess. Maybe I'll try reverse psychology and back up what they seem to be saying.

So maybe they'll do the opposite and make ranking faster, or they'll agree and I'll understand their point of view.

Or

They don't understand that I agree that there is a balance between insta-100s and long hours of practicing. So, if I make this post, maybe I can be a little clearer about what I'm trying to say - that from a player's point of view, the balance of tedium and fun is <b> not very balanced !! </b>

<hr>

>5) Reread what you write before posting it. If it seems
>pointless, whiney, counter-productive, etc., than it probably
>is.

I generally read my posts several times. Hence my usually excellent spelling and grammar.

>Follow these and I would be more inclined to take something
>you post seriously.

Honestly, I'm not expecting much anymore.

Let's refer to Phaelim's post, shall we?

Refer to it for what?

Do you guys enjoy ranking? Do you recognize that a lot of people seem to have the same complaints?

Actually, I have no problems with ranking. When I'm ranking I tend to RP with my groupmates, practice spells/skills, keep an eye out for people looking to ambush me, keep an eye out for people I can ambush, grab gear in nearby areas inbetween rounds of ranking, etc. Sure, I recognize that a number of people have the same complaint. Just like I recognize there's no point in having skill %'s or character levels if we just make everything easier because some people don't want to put the effort in.

I am complaining because I think the game takes too much work, and I'm basing that on the amount of work it took in the past.

Your opinion of too much work. The only real class I think can have a valid complaint is invokers, and them I would just tell they pick their own affinities.

Yes, I am a little lazy. I really, really hate busywork. Do you?!

Well, that could be a problem there. No, I don't.

I'm trying to point out that there is a LOT of work that exists in this game only because the imms have made it that way.

I'll agree it is there because imms have placed it there or decided not to remove something that already exists. That there is a LOT of it, I disagree.

"Does he really think that spending more time makes chars more memorable?! Well.. OK, I don't agree with that, but maybe it does. So.. if I take that one step further, that would mean that the longer I spend on a char, the more memorable it would be ( That seems to be a common goal between me and you. ) .. Well, that seems ridiculous to me (and I do have a char with 8k hours or so still floating around another mud), but.. OK, I guess.

No, I don't think time alone makes a character memorable. I do think a player is more likely to stick with a character that he has invested time into if making another will take another such investment. If Bob makes a warrior and power ranks to hero in 20 hours and gets PKed, what's to stop him from just deleting and rolling up another? 20 hours sure isn't going to. Now Joe the invoker hits hero with 200 hours of ranking and spell practice and gets beat down. He probably won't be too inclined to just say screw it and roll another character.

Maybe I'll try reverse psychology and back up what they seem to be saying. So maybe they'll do the opposite and make ranking faster, or they'll agree and I'll understand their point of view.

Reverse psychology only works on people who are disagreeing with you just to disagree. I actually think exactly what I'm telling you. And no, I don't think insane investments of time are needed. 100-150 seems like the average time to hero, and I'm alright with that number.

They don't understand that I agree that there is a balance between insta-100s and long hours of practicing. So, if I make this post, maybe I can be a little clearer about what I'm trying to say - that from a player's point of view, the balance of tedium and fun is not very balanced !!

There is indeed a balance there. To be specific, it is a select group of players, not all players. I'm a player, I don't think the balance is off, or if it is, certainly not by much.

Sidenote: Extra exclamation points don't lend any extra weight to your argument.

Honestly, I'm not expecting much anymore.

That's on you. I read every post and actually think over the non-idiotic ones. Some I agree with, some I don't. This one I don't.