I remember back in the days a well played shifter was one of the more frightening opponets you could face. Then they got split into two classes, then they had most of their aggresive spells removed. Then any of the good forms aka panther got beat down, the vulture/hyena acid bite no longer carried over, and even the jaguar ambush *BOGGLE* got hit with the nerf stick. Then came the malediction affects and the shifting damage. These days I count them among the easiest opponets to fight. Especially if I'm a warrior type class shifters are a joke. I already know what every form is going to do, mostly it consists of bite, bite, bite. Sure an eagle/lion showing up when I'm half dead is a pain in the ass, but for the most part unless they have barrier I don't sweat them. I really think they've been toned down too much. I would love to see some shifter loving in the form of added skills for all the forms, skills with big lag and big mana use to keep them balanced. Also I think equipment should play more of a role besides simply gearing for hit points. What is everyone elses take?

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

Well I for one have thought that shifters have missed a big tune up.

No heal at healer is a big bad, but I can handle this.

wands is a pain but I can handle getting them, but not being able to put up any in a fight hurts. Its not like I want to revert in a fight and put up barrier.. and fleeing running aso is not always a good option. Reverting takes time, shifting takes time/mana, and being cought out of form for a shifter =death.

No talk= less rp possibilities and if slept/jacked you cant call help. This is a BIG disadvantage.

Dammage while shifting I think is ok, but the lag of it is murder!...The dammage has killed me several times, but its the lag of shifting between the forms that has been the worst thing.

Only hp going over form gear... I think that one more thing should go over and that is resistance to affects ei spells paralysis. Let the forms have a base resistance and gear for the rest.ofcourse different for each type of form. Heck some creatures of the same race are more reistant to poison than others, in that it has been poisoned and lived through it. And resistances of gear gotten. its not like there are to much gear that will help alot. But some would, and it would be a fair boon to the class. After all when you don a reddragon mail, you still have it on, and it will protect you still. Though its armor bonuses is gone, you still have the feeling of being resistant to fire!....

Boering to play while fighting. You can only bite/distract aso. true, its boering but the shifter class is very versatile, it can adapt greatly to many situations. Though in pk fights I think its next to hopeless.

Vaunrability to alot of spells/skills. This is the worst of all in my opinion. Heck blind a shifter its dead. some forms cant even engage a foe they are not directly fighting. And as a blind shifter your basically a sitting duck. Having been knocked out at a pair of cents and blinded and cursed. and each time I reverted they attacked, and forced me to shift again, they basically wore me down. They took to much dammage while I was in form so they wore me down. Funny... And fighting an invoker, Ive attempted all the things I can think of.But Ive never beaten an invoker while in form, with the exception of a gnome one with the orangutan....and I had counterspell...And even then I almost lost.

What I would like to see is this.
That shifters in their major form got some more skills that got developed after a while. This not applying to the minor foci. So that most shifters would be a bit different.

That shifters no longer had that hourendus lag of shifting when their bones are broken.

Some spell resistance to affects help with gear.

Shifters have some communication with their group/cabal ei animal sounds. (howl = howls in greeting for instance when someone in your cabal enters) Now this would help some atleast.

Some solution to the wand problem. Heck shifters are the most dependant mage class of the wand/stave thing.

Those where my cents... Hope it helps some.

Shifters can still be scary to fight for many classes. I remember getting my ass whooped by a lion as a decked arial assassin w/ sanctuary.

Here's what I remember:

1. Damage/tanking downgrades. Doesn't apply to all forms.
2. Can't heal at healers while in form.
3. Severely affected by -str/-dex now.
4. Shifting causes damage when maledicted.
5. Barrier harder to come by.

In my mind, #2 and #3 are the biggest hits. What did happen is that warriors got several upgrades and there happen to be tons of warriors.

Agreed.

The only viable kind of combo for almost any kind of PK is
offense/air, and even the weaker major offense forms there
get badly crippled after a single boneshatter. Then take foci
like utility and defense, and it gets even worse. And the
strategies for shifters consist exactly of either 1) wearing
more hp, 2) zap self barrier_rod and 3) gang. It gets pretty
boring in the long run, and sometimes even it isn't enough
(dare I say non-offense shifter against a dagger spec warrior?
No amount of hp and dam redux is going to let you win that
fight unless the warrior is a confused newbie.)

Shifters just plain need more options to make them something
besides the newbie/exploring class they're mostly fit to be as
it is.

>The only viable kind of combo for almost any kind of PK is
>offense/air, and even the weaker major offense forms there
>get badly crippled after a single boneshatter.

Utility can kill. Water, occasionally.

>And the
>strategies for shifters consist exactly of either 1) wearing
>more hp, 2) zap self barrier_rod and 3) gang. It gets pretty
>boring in the long run, and sometimes even it isn't enough

This has always been the case.

> dare I say non-offense shifter against a dagger spec
>warrior?
>No amount of hp and dam redux is going to let you win that
>fight unless the warrior is a confused newbie.)

A barrier'd porcupine/orangutan would do alright, assuming the warrior's other spec isn't spear/staff or polearm.

>Shifters just plain need more options to make them something
>besides the newbie/exploring class they're mostly fit to be
>as it is.

Maybe. If so, though, that's not related to any recent nerfing they may have received.

>Utility can kill. Water, occasionally.

Water, naturally, is deadly, but you don't see water shifters very often, and avoiding them would be easier than any other type. Utility forms, as far as I've experienced, get crippled even by minimal str loss to the point of being unable to do much damage at all.

>This has always been the case.

I don't think that even if it's how it's always been means it's how it should be. Give them some ability to use gear-given bonuses, etc., which would already give them a LOT more versatility, after all it's what every other class in the game can do.

>A barrier'd porcupine/orangutan would do alright, assuming the
>warrior's other spec isn't spear/staff or polearm.

And porcupine/orangutan would just happen to be the "cream of the crop" forms, and barrier doesn't grow on trees. That still leaves most of the non-offense forms pretty sadly vulnerable to any class with ability to cause decent stat damage.

>Utility forms, as far as I've experienced, get crippled
>even by minimal str loss to the point of being unable to do
>much damage at all.

Okay. Except you said "the only viable kind of combo for almost any kind of PK is offense/air". Lots of classes can't maledict strength, which seems to suggest utility forms are viable for killing those classes.

>I don't think that even if it's how it's always been means
>it's how it should be.

Neither do I, necessarily. But the original point of the thread was to complain about how shifters have been downgraded, not about how they've always been.

>Give them some ability to use gear-given bonuses, etc., which
>would already give them a LOT more versatility, after all it's
>what every other class in the game can do.

This would require a massive re-balancing of the class, since one of its strengths has always been that shifters only need to gear for HP. If you want hit, dam and stats to carry over into form then you should be prepared for forms' innate hit/dam to drop dramatically.

>And porcupine/orangutan would just happen to be the "cream of
>the crop" forms, and barrier doesn't grow on trees. That still
>leaves most of the non-offense forms pretty sadly vulnerable
>to any class with ability to cause decent stat damage.

Indulge my literalness. You said "no amount of hp and dam redux is going to let you win that fight unless the warrior is a confused newbie." Apparently that isn't the case. Orangutan isn't even really a requirement; it could just as easily be wildcat, hyena, or possible even eagle or osprey.

Personally, I think the extent to which maledictions affects shifters really does disadvantage the class against a multitude of other classes. But they're not quite as impotent as you make it seem.

>Okay. Except you said "the only viable kind of combo for almost
>any kind of PK is offense/air". Lots of classes can't maledict
>strength, which seems to suggest utility forms are viable for
>killing those classes.

Of all the classes, I can't think but of a handful (healer, conjurer, most thieves) that wouldn't be able to bust out enough maledicting attacks to tame a non-offense form, which on the other hand should be more than able to just avoid or run away from them as non-offense non-air shifters lack the brutal damage and the superior chasing ability.

>This would require a massive re-balancing of the class, since
>one of its strengths has always been that shifters only
>need to gear for HP. If you want hit, dam and stats to carry
>over into form then you should be prepared for forms' innate
>hit/dam to drop dramatically.

Which would still be better than being forced to suffer the rigidness of having exactly -20 saves and the exact 18 str to use, IMHO. It's more a dramatic limit than a strength in my view.

>Indulge my literalness. You said "no amount of hp and dam
>redux is going to let you win that fight unless the warrior is
>a confused newbie." Apparently that isn't the case.
>Orangutan isn't even really a requirement; it could just as
>easily be wildcat, hyena, or possible even eagle or osprey.
>
>Personally, I think the extent to which maledictions affects
>shifters really does disadvantage the class against a
>multitude of other classes. But they're not quite as impotent
>as you make it seem.

I admit that my view on this may be skewed, as I tend to fight rager warriors most of the time whose damage reduction etc. really tilts the fight to their advantage, and my complete inability to find any kind of barrier wands anywhere makes it hard to just try to tough them out. Or it could just be that I just suck, too, but I'm not sure what else I could do than try to spam bite faster or go hang out on IRC to get some barrier rods

I just see shifters as the red-headed stepchildren of CF, whom everyone has a fun time beating on, and they really could use some loving after all the toning down they've gotten.

>Of all the classes, I can't think but of a handful (healer,
>conjurer, most thieves) that wouldn't be able to bust out
>enough maledicting attacks to tame a non-offense form, which
>on the other hand should be more than able to just avoid or
>run away from them as non-offense non-air shifters lack the
>brutal damage and the superior chasing ability.

An assassin might have trouble against a utility form w/ dam redux. He basically has axe kick and caltraps. But yeah, lots of classes can maledict.

>Which would still be better than being forced to suffer the
>rigidness of having exactly -20 saves and the exact 18 str to
>use, IMHO. It's more a dramatic limit than a strength in my
>view.

I could see allowing stats to carry over, and possibly saves. Especially now that STR/DEX malediction affects shifters to such a large degree. If they so choose, maybe they should be able to sacrifice HP/MANA in exchange for some extra STR/DEX. But HIT/DAM...no. Progs from gear...no.