I have a wand list. It's been passed around for a while now - several different people have sent me various forms of it (all mostly identical). It's really unfair to casual/new players to have wand locations secret information - all the good players already know where the wands are, and all the bad ones have to explore to find them. AFAIK, it includes probably 90% of the sleeks in the game. I'd post it in the interest of fairness, but obviously the IMMs have said clearly how much they feel it hurts the game.

That said, I have spent 20+ hours looking for my sleeks, even knowing exactly all the locations they could be. The idea behind detect artifact is really great - if you don't want to spend all that time killing really tough mobs at low levels, just rank up and you'll be able to identify your sleek. Me, I always try to identify them early, so it's still a time sink killing huge mobs at level 35.

Anyways, why not just make the location of all wands known in the Lyceum or something, or whatever? No matter what you do, there will always be the incentive to collaborate to share information - if I have 50% of a complete list, and my friend has 50% of a complete list, why wouldn't I share it and save myself hours? Because it's cheating? But I can't get caught - so it's a system that punishes the honest and the people who don't use other messaging programs, which is the opposite of how it should be. What if I've been looking for 20 hours, don't have enough edge points to take barrier attunement even though I've been all over the game twice, and I ask my friend "Does big mob X have a wand?" on AIM, to save myself an hour of trying to kill him, and he replies with wand.txt? Should I not open the file and keep plugging away and hope that someone doesn't find me scourged and with 0 moves while I'm killing this tough mob?

Honestly, the system is very good as it stands now for allowing the wands to be open knowledge - I know the frustration very well of having the list in front of you and not being able to find your wands after hours and hours of searching. That said, at least one of the locations I saw on the list was a room that I didn't even know existed, after several years of playing. Think you'll ever find that one without OOC help? Maybe. But if you don't, then you'll be at a disadvantage against the guy who cheated and found it there.

Hopefully, the responses aren't just "How about we ban the players who are circulating these lists?" If so, there is a fundamental misunderstanding about human nature and a significant disconnect between admins and players. In general, in threads like this, I think that it's hard for the admins to see things from the player point of view and vice versa - I think the thread below about detect artifact and the IMM/player reponses captures it very well - in the end, both players and administrators want a fair game. I think this would be a good first step towards an equal playing field.

Here I am, prowling the forums like some sort of ghost. But here is my thoughts.

I played off and on since 1997. The last real character I had was a Cloud Giant Warrior Hero, and before that was a Gnome Invoker in the spire. Mix in some Ragers before those, and thats pretty my list of characters.

But with those characters, and reading through most of this post, it started me to think. What is it people value about this MUD that keeps them coming back? And the third question, why do the Immortals continue to do what they do, and why do they want to protect it so?

For some, its exploration. Others, its PK. Me, its a combination of both. I do not have any time these days to roll up a serious character, but the desire always remains to explore the new areas that have been implemented. And thus, the problem of not having enough time to get a character to the point to check out all of those cool places (the new Tiamat liar included).

I also miss the bonds of friendship by joining the Cabals, and working alongside other people, exploring, pking, raiding, ect. The dwindling number of people is a concern, and I agree we may never see the 100 plus people online at once like when I first started playing.

That being said, I also understand that the Immortals who add to this game wish to protect what they have created. They want to protect the puzzles they worked tirelessly to create, so that others could take the time to figure them out. They enjoy the fact other people enjoy the game as it is, and wish to keep it fair and balanced for all who want to play/explore. And continue to add to the game that we have all come to like so much.

I can understand that people don't want to spend hours exploring, looking for things. It is human nature to take the easy way out. But I also know that the newbies that start the game are at a serious disadvantage when it comes to exploring, to get that upper edge, and learn how to find those things on their own.

At first, I thought that removing all preps was a horrible idea. Invokers would get the upper hand on Warriors being stuck in quicksand (no flight), Transmuters and RBW would be more prevalent, and some fights that would last for minutes would be reduced to a few rounds (see Gnome shapeshifter out of form vs RBW with mace Spec, 3 round dead Gnome). The list goes on.

But thinking about it further, the classes have always had good matchups vs bad matchups across the board. It always comes down to timining and tactics. Sure, the Gnome might have quicksand vs a warrior with no flight, but the Gnome still has to worry about tripping/bashing/lagging specs/class lagging abilities. But that is the risk that the Gnome invoker has to take. There is good and bad in every matchup.

Prepping helps take some of the guesswork out of the game. Flight to prevent tripping, damage reduction to help mitigate the RBW, ect. Finding the right preps for the situations takes time and effort. Gathering can sometimes take longer.

That being said, I would like to make the following suggestion. I would like to say now that my goal is to make the game more newbie friendly towards exploration, but also increase the difficulity of access to ABS when it is used for PK.

Sleek Wand System - Make this accessable to everyone (only for mage use though), and maybe even create a list that a mage can go explore and find those sleek wands. Keep the wands limited, so that people have to choose what they want to keep in their inventory.

Here is the spin on it though: Make the protections that the sleek wands give work only for PvE. Remove the protective properties when it comes to PK. So a person may use that sleek wand for barrier, but that barrier does nothing when it comes to PvP fighting. This is along the idea of Khadrath's Planar Sanctum, where Barrier is accessable, but only usable in that area.

Other non-limited preps, like flight, stoneskin, ect. Keep them as they are, and let them work in both PvE and PvP. These are not game changers, but they do have value in planning and execution.

Other Limited ABS - Keep these sources working for both PvE and PvP.

My goal here is to promote exploration for the newbie generation into those areas that would be too dangerous normally. There are downsides, I know, but

The goal here is to help people learn the mage classes, and give them a way to go out exploring, removing some of the risk

I do not know how horrible of an idea this is, or the scope of implementing this would be. I am just trying to help both those who do not have the time to sink into this game (like me), and help the newbies get some help to explore both the game and the limitations of the classes.

Krathreal

I shared that list with a #### ton of people and every single one of them were grateful. I've never seen an answer better than "because I said so" when dealing with the staff in regards to how utterly ####ing stupid the wand system is - when you have a multi player game you're going to have multiple people talking and sharing info about that game, to try and outlaw that practice is the most laughable idea of all.

Absolutely. In games where you keep your character forever and leveling takes months it makes sense to have tons of things to search around for at max level. In this game, it doesn't. You can achieve whatever sense of personal accomplishment, combat effectiveness, roleplay, etc within the lifespan of a single character without ever needing preps. Then you die and you get to try for leadership, tats, epic lootz and etc all over again.

Preps, in my opinion, exist so that people who know where they are will have an easier time beating up on those that don't. As a game mechanic it has never made any legitimate sense. It'd be the same thing as having perma-barrier once you've played the game for 5+ years.

My next step is to remove all preps from the game. That seems to be what you guys want, which will leave it up to your skill and ability to find a group.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

nt

.

But seriously Zulg, I understand your thoughts on this.

However, that won't fix the root problem. That certain players will do whatever they can to find advantages within this game.

You remove all preps and all that does is hurt the newbies who don't have a perma-group or AIM list even more. Tony would still be able to roll chars with his friends and have a support team in place, so this solution wouldn't harm him (or those types of players) at all.

The real question is how to incentivize those players to play in the manner in which you want the game to head towards. If you don't do that you're attacking the symptoms, not the disease.

>But seriously Zulg, I understand your thoughts on this.

I spent this afternoon writing up the code to take care of it, and I can flip it on at any time.

>You remove all preps and all that does is hurt the newbies who
>don't have a perma-group or AIM list even more.

So it's a no win situation. Leave the preps in, the newbies are ####ed because they can't find them. Take the preps out to make an even playing field, and they're ####ed to. Love this job.

>Tony would
>still be able to roll chars with his friends and have a
>support team in place, so this solution wouldn't harm him (or
>those types of players) at all.

And we have rules against perma-groups, so it's easy enough to deny them, and the newbies roll on.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Leave the preps in, the whiners get to keep whining. Take the preps out, the whiners get to keep whining.

Seriously, you're my favorite IMM and we've only interacted once in the history of ever.

The rules against perma-groups are a ####ing joke. Seriously. Try as hard as you want up in IMMland and you just can't police it the way you want. The playerbase can set-up proxies and other methods in which you have no way of knowing whether or not these players know each other or just have the luck of logging on at the same time.

For example, I love Ryan Rettinger (aka Kanye) the person (####bag though he is). He was banned and was able to get around that ban without a ton of work. It wasn't even an effort for him. And to be honest, when he's not in a #### mood, Kanye is a great player and a boon to the game.

Another example is the Torak/Gaplemo/whoever perma that got busted a while back. While you may have stopped them from "perma-ing" that still didn't stop any player with half a brain to realize that a hell trip being led by Imperials more than likely had 3 or 4 of that group within the Hell trip.

As someone who has never had a perma (except for my epic-ly failed perma of Larcat/Shamanman who both deleted on me several years ago), trust me when I say every time I think about perma-ing, it's not getting busted that worries me, it's actually grouping with the people I could perma with (I don't get along with players such as Quas/Kanye/etc in game most of the time...plus I like killing my friends more than killing other people with them).

I'm not even going to mention sending you guys a list of known perma's a while back and hearing crickets I know I wasn't the most liked player during that time, so I'll chalk that one up to bad timing.

It would be an inconvenience to many non-perma-grouping people, but Zulg could conceivably add code to make "ranking with the same people" provide decreasing returns. Then you wouldn't have to deny anyone because perma-grouping (for the purpose of ranking) would be sub-optimal for the purpose of gaining ranks.

One might imagine other code that makes the anti-gang code go into overdrive whenever you're attacking someone who is also being attacked by someone whom you've assisted on too many kills. So the more a pair of characters kill in tandem, the less effective they become while fighting together. Obviously this would screw cabalmates who end up raiding/retrieving/defending together a lot, but them's the breaks. Maybe except pkills that happen in cabal HQ's and all adjoining areas (Galadon, Imperial Lands, Ruins of Ostalagiah, etc.)

As I said, you need to find a system that creates incentives to "not cheat".

Back before the playerbase became much more intelligent, it was easy. You could check IPs and see without a shadow of doubt that this player logging in from 12.122132.1212.1 was friends with this player who was logging in from 214124.2313.2 and set it so if they ranked together or killed together they got ROTD'd.

Now, it's not nearly as easy. Proxies, mirror sites, etc. It makes it too hard for the IMMs to police this in the way they might like.

Not to mention that people enjoy playing with their friends. You take away that option and you'll lose more players than you ever would by taking away preps/implementing a new wand system.

>As I said, you need to find a system that creates incentives
>to "not cheat".

That's what I did. Those changes would mitigate the advantages of cheating. Mitigate the advantages of cheating and you reduce the incentive to cheat.

>Not to mention that people enjoy playing with their friends.
>You take away that option and you'll lose more players than
>you ever would by taking away preps/implementing a new wand
>system.

If "playing with your friends" means "perma-grouping with your friends" then you're essentially saying "many people like to cheat; if you remove that option then they'll all stop playing".

If "playing with your friends" does not mean "perma-grouping with your friends" then, theoretically, code changes that penalize "perma-grouping" but not "casual grouping together" would not affect friends who play with each other but do not approach the level of "perma-grouping".

Not saying you aren't one of the top 10% of players, but the fact you were in a cabal with several other Dio's VIPs and players I know you would have talked to even if it wasn't about CF would have ####ed your char over.

What you propose is a system that punishes people that rank/hunt/are in the same cabal together that know each other. I know for a fact you weren't in a perma but you definitely were in a cabal with people you know.

Just saying.

>What you propose is a system that punishes people that
>rank/hunt/are in the same cabal together that know each other.

No, the changes I proposed (somewhat facetiously) would punish characters that rank/hunt with each other to a disproportionate degree. If the degree to which you partner with another character doesn't rise to "disproportionate" levels then nothing I've suggested would ever affect you.

It would, however, create a "bright line" where we say, "people on this side are fine; people on the other side are perma-grouping" without any consideration of motive or circumstances unique to a particular character.

As for Sulye, I don't think I ranked/hunted with other Outlanders enough to trigger any anti-perma nerf code. That's not to say it might not unfairly hit other characters; I just don't think Sulye is a good example of a character that would suffer unfairly.

I read my post and have no idea what I was trying to say.

I think removing haste preps a couple years back was an over all positive move for the game. I think removing other preps would have a similar impact.

Assuming you're saying you will adjust other things to compensate game-balance wise, I think it's a viable option - I'm sure you guys have considered it before, although I like the current system more because of the additional strategy it creates. If you're just saying that you will flip a switch and all preps are gone and nothing else changes, then it's clear the game will not be balanced and you are just trolling an important topic, so I hope it's the former.

> If you're just saying that you will flip a switch and all preps are gone and nothing else changes

I can confirm that a switch like this is precisely what has been implemented.

Congratz on a snap decision. That is tongue-in-cheek, obviously.

I can only hope if you all did what you say, you re-balance everything. I can only think transmuters/bards will be even more powerful than they already are.

Oh well. I was kinda getting bored with CF anyway. Maybe I'll love this change. I'm guessing I won't though.

Which, just like the real one, no one has the balls to pull.

I'd play again if this happened, I'd have no one to blame but myself at that point.

Unfortunately, that still means whatever switch he coded is likely going to leave damage-reduction cabal powers in place, Deathblow (either DB or resist would have to disappear along with such a switch), and it will take months to properly rebalance anything that can do over 500 damage in a single round. Cheap shot will either have to not exist, or be nerfed below orc-level effectiveness without fly potions. Permanent barrier and sanctuary too aren't likely to be removed from high level mobs anytime soon. Paladins will no longer have to worry about anyone meeting or beating their damage reduction, they can pretty much put any group of people behind them and automatically accomplish almost any cabal raid with a minimum of effort with the correct virtues and proper mana management. Word and teleport will still be in the game as well.

Still, A/B/S, desensitize, element specific dam redux, stone skin, and haste all going the way of the dodo would make things plenty interesting in spite of the above. Good players may still get kills, but they will die more and be unable to park it in obscure areas and hiding places as often. Not really all that worried about them permagrouping if it's possible to down the dangerous players in two rounds of a well coordinated strike.

For the record, I have that text file too, but you have yet to see me play any particularly dangerous mages because I don't have the patience or time to really make use of that list. This is a net positive, dump the preps in order to scatter more progging gear around the world with various effects including (but not stacking with) the original prep effects.

The problem isn't that preps exist. It's that the game is only balanced around them existing. Like you mention, resist, thirst and deathblow are only balanced around everyone else having knowledge of an assload of preps or class-based protections. ABSed invoker and such are exactly the same - you fight them unprepped and you die miserably.

The usual potions (fly, detect, return, teleport) are obviously not the problem. The problem is that non-mage, non-ragers NEED to know how to reliably get prot, stoneskin, aura, shield, etc to have a chance vs these power characters. It's as if there was a cold war with mages and ragers ending in these ridiculously strong powers, leaving the rest of the world behind.

The thing is, I like damage reduction. Not ABS invoker level, not svirf rager with gates level, but a moderate level of dam redux so that you can live long enough to at least use your skills/spells and see if they give you the edge you need. I just (like everyone else) hate having to spend a lot of my time each session gathering the money and preps I need to even start trying to kill people.

You dont need to know any preps to pk just have to have enough skill you beat the other character. These people arent super good because they have preps they are super good because they know how to pk and have been doing it for a while.

I've got a single #### to give...and it's just for you.

I dont think preps are bad for the game. I even think some things should stay non circulated, like area explore stuff. But do you really think removing all preps from the game is going to benifet CF even a little bit more than just saying "Fine, leave the wand system as is, its diverse enough, but let people circulate their wand lists". That way the newbie has a place to start looking, nobody gets "Free" wands or protections, you can still get them on tough mobs/have to look for yours. If you remove all preps from the game, I personally think that will be the nail in the coffin of CF. A even remotely playing field would be impossible. Would paladins lose sanctuary. Ragers deathblow? Resistance? Would bards lose protective songs? I find it hard to believe you could remove all the protections from the game without destroying it totally.

General consensus from the playerbase is that preps are cool. Even back in the days of purple potions, people liked them. The difference between then and now is back then, it was common knowledge where to get the preps, and now, you punish people for sharing that knowledge. I think its a great system. But its an online game. Short of area explore, let the knowledge be public and vets will no longer have an advantage against newbies. You want to prep? Easy, heres where to look. Go spend your time and energy gathering preps. The only thing the playerbase doesnt seem to like is the timesink and gamble you take on the character looking for wands that are quite possibly on mobs you have never even heard of.

I mean come on guys. Sleek black rods in area explores? Several of them at that? Are you trying to kill the newbies off?


I think this is a great staff, and a great game. I love to play it. I only speak up on this matter because I personally think a lot of bitching would stop when people dont have to hide their wand lists.

I would personally play a mage if some of the gamble of the ABS system was gone. I like some sort of option to gather protetions though, weather everyone else has the same option or not. If all preps were gone from the game, I doubt I and many others would be able to love it like we do now. If I wanted to play POS, I would boot my own copy and play POS.

> The difference between then and now is back then, it was common knowledge where to get the preps, and now, you punish people for sharing that knowledge.

That's a really rose-colored glasses take on it which doesn't jive with my memory of that era. So, so many noobs who had no idea it existed were rolled by quaffable sanc.

Like me

Well, I knew it existed, It just never crossed my mind to farm the damned things and quaff it for every PK like how it would go down if purple potions were available now. The irony is I was part of the group that killed the last hobgoblin without realizing the impact of what we did

I agree with you. I myself got facerolled by the sanc users. But it only took one time to learn how to get the potions myself, then I was at least on a somewhat fightable playing field. (yeah right, sanc or not back then, I got mangled up)

Im not saying my solution would fix all the problems. I think it would be more viable for todays cf is all. It was a lot easier to learn where that purple potion came from and get it, for instance, than to search the 100 wand locations for possible wands, even if I knew them. It's already gonna be hard to prep, knowledge or not. Us vets all have wand lists, our own or circulated ones it doesn't matter. We have them. It doesn't change anything for about 60% of the playerbase. The only thing my solution does is put EVERYONE on a level playing field as far as wand knowledge goes. It gives them a fighting chance, so they don't just straight never find their wands because they may not even have heard of that mob before. It gives them a base to start, based on other mages experiences. It doesnt make a sleek black rod appear in their hands. If the rod is on archmage x, they still have to kill that mob and find their wand there, and manage gathering it, and thats not always so easy given some of the slots. If the staff isn't so into the idea I understand, but imo its the simplest, easiest fix. We still have secret stuff in CF. Area explore stuff the playerbase all sort of silently agrees is more fun for the most part if left for the explorer to find out. I'm an explorer myself. But the wand system just seems like more of a timesink than I can manage these days. I'm not 15 in a computer lab anymore. Most of the playerbase that are vets also hurt for time like me, some even being older than me with less time. Anything that makes my experience less of a timesink, and more up and go fun, is a HUGE thumbs up from me. I think thats why people like the exp bonuses so much. Less timesink, more CF!

Level the playing field? Let everyone have the same info, skills and how they work, preps and where they are, then the real skill players will shine, no matter how long they've played here.

There will still be people that use their ooc buddies to snap up the best stuff.

Just knowing something exists isn't necessarily that helpful. Sometimes the only reason things are available is because said ooc groups don't know about them.

Thanks for the "constructive feedback" on my handle, by the way. Considering you were complaining that I was being "personal".

I never once said OOC grouping wouldn't occur, just that some of it's positives would be mitigated to a large degree because information wouldn't be yet another obstacle for Joe Solo to need 10 years to catch up to the Gaplemo/Tongni type players and their OOC connects. Do you blame them for sharing OOC info? I don't one bit. This is a competitive game where every advantage matters. Certainly the imms are just as secretive with the info only they have, as evidenced by ambigous helpfiles and the fact that even 10+ year vets don't know the nuances of some of the basic class skills. Remember, the only people that benefit from knowledge not being shared are the people who already have the knowledge.

This is a great thread by Tongni and I applaud him for being dead on in what he is saying. Not only that, but a player like him is actually going to suffer if the imms take his suggestion, given that the effect his game knowledge has will be diluted because everyone else would have it as well. I certainly don't hear "team doomsday switch" saying they will also start actually telling us what the hell skills do and what affects them, and oh guess who would benefit if that info never comes out? The guys who have played 10 years and every class/race combo, and you guessed it, team doomsday switch themselves.

Now that I've said that...here you are again in a thread talking about me personally in a passive aggressive way, despite me not once mentioning you. Just stop already.

"Remember, the only people that benefit from knowledge not being shared are the people who already have the knowledge."

Do I really have to explain why this is not true?

>>But seriously Zulg, I understand your thoughts on this.
>
>I spent this afternoon writing up the code to take care of it,
>and I can flip it on at any time.

SO sick of not being able to play many of the aspects in this game because I feel like I need to carry around a prep bag of 4-10 things (depending on class and race) to be competitive. I just have better things to do with my time than gather the same preps over and over.

Take out the progging items while you're at it too.

Of course, you're probably just trying to shut people up by threatening and won't do it, but I'd cheer you on if you flipped that switch.

I wouldn't mind seeing most if not all preps being gone. Makes mages that much smoovier in my opinion.

I say you hit the switch that gets rid of ABS and gives everyone except ragers permanent damage reduction. It may sound crazy, but it's not. Many players already have perm dam redux because they're wand whores.

Benefits:
-No more wasting time searching for preps.
-Newbie friendly, exploration friendly. (will make the game more playable)
-Makes PK more interesting because fights are not over in 2 seconds.
-The staff no longer worries about ABS and wand locations and can focus their creative efforts are more interesting things. Like improving mob AI, class and area revamps. Maybe coming up with some interesting skills/spells for those old wand locations.

Drawbacks:
Absolutely none!

CF is still viable and a unique game. But like all things, to survive, it must continuously adapt.

I'll bet you a nickel you would see a slight boost in player count.

-I personally had way more fun when there was only 3 locations for shield/aura/barrier. Everyone had these and fights seemed longer and more drawn out. If everyone has more hp's, and take less damage all around, it leads to better tactics and raid/counter raids were more fun. Inners could be beefed a bit to compensate, and maybe add some bonus to defenders. Add a few easy to obtain preps for non-village warriors and its now a even playing field. A bit of modest gathering doesnt detract from much. (more time now for killing, exploring, raiding....)

Spending hours on end to gather stuff sucks. I dispised having to 'grab my wands' before logging off (limited), or know that the next time I logged in, they would be farmed and I would be at a disadvantage.

-More emphasis on killing that person for his awesome piece of equipment instead of powergaming for days to get every prep available...

Hope is the worst of evils, for it prolongs the torment of man.

Since it feels as if they are relevant here.

Please remove preps for a week or two, and re-evaluate the situation.

For those who are totally against the idea, please stop playing for the short period. Or better yet, keep playing to see what a bad idea it is. Your points will be more convincing that way.

We can have a global quest for the event.
Once the preps are removed, the Battle Ragers will have their power tone down slightly, since magic is much less accessible.

In-game, think of it as a unique global situation for your character for your RP to shine. How will your character react to it? It will be a major talking point in game.

Another quest to restore preps would be cool.

After which, players' feedbacks will be based on real experience rather than imaginations and inferences.

Please reply if you support this post.

Removing preps would not hurt newbies more than the system that exists now does and after preps were removed it'd be much easier to actually balance the classes because you wouldn't have dozens of fringe cases to consider.

The prep system exists, purely to make it so that people with longer time spent playing the game and more OOC friends will be able to curb stomp newbies or people with actual ethics. I'm all in favor for it to go away and in my opinion, anyone who doesn't is kidding themselves into thinking that their knowledge hording is skill and they don't want their "I Win" buttons taken away. They want to go 'zap self, zap self, zap self' and be reasonably assured that they will win fights against people who are casual or new players.

Would mobs lose barrier etc as well? Would ragers lose deathblow?

No preps is a GREAT idea.

Now it doesn't matter who races for the questy-canteen

Since I race there and quite often pk them just after they get it.

I would totally convert all ABS items in the game to the equivalent of the built-in mage protective spell (not up at the same time, long recast timer) and call it good!

Qaledus

Seriously.

I found Ivn finally

My invoker just spent 380ish hours looking for his wands and found one sleek so far, although I found enough limited ones so that with some planning the character can fight solo. I don't mind the system at all, esp if I know I'll learn more eventually and put it to use in the future. So please do not mind punish the majority for a few jerks.

Entitled vets saying they want the whole game delivered to them in 20 to 100 hours or less -- who are you guys? This vocal minority acts as if they have the right to be rude and complain when they go through a fraction of what a newer player goes through -- it is not cool or impressive. Then also, they complain of favoritism when someone comes along who can fight them or steamroll them. No one trying to learn the game today is interested in what happened 5 years ago -- why are those issues the subject of so much vitriol?

You could change the sleek wand system so, that the new wand always respawns into a different sleek location, chosen from the available locations for your character, after it is found and taken from it's location. So it would be like the current sleek system, except that your found sleek spot would be re-randomized each time after the gathering of the wand.

This way, you would not gain the advantage of sure, farmable prep location, but sleek wands would genuinely become explorer perks. This would also add to the roleplay immersion of the game, as the personal sleek wand would not be always in the same spot, but in a different one, thus allowing a perpetual joy of discovery for explorers and creating a more dynamical, realistic world. To offset the difficulty of discovery, the number of personal sleek wands could be increased. This would make finding your sleek easier, which would also be friendlier towards newbies. Upon discovery of your first sleek wand, the system could give an echo to new players that points out to the helpfile that explains how the sleek system works.

Personally, I think that the proposed sleek system is more newbie friendly than the current one, as it makes finding the sleek spots faster, thus allowing new players to learn the locations faster without the help of a wand list. It would also reduce the power of a circulating wand list.

I do like this idea, especially with detect artifact in play. The problem is, it doesn't obsolete the cheating that comes with passing wand location lists to your aim buddies.

What I like best is that it would seem to completely eliminate the "need" to delete over a bad sleek location.

To the point of cheating though, it might not be reasonable to think a system can be designed that would remove the ability/incentive to cheat. Some people will always be looking for a way around the system.

I got the sense he was being sarcastic. Though, maybe you were too. Unless I misunderstand what he's proposing, all it would do is create a situation where you have to re-check a ton of known locations (which isn't actual "exploration") every time you get a wand. That doesn't strike me as "fun" at all.

I was totally serious and I thought he was as well.

The caveat to this would probably also be adding in some more scattered high limited ABS locations, possibly ones that also only reset randomly so they cannot always be relied upon.

I think it would be a good idea to change the farmable spots this way. You could also add the number of sleeks available to be found, which increases the chance to find a sleek without using any kind of a list of known locations.

I agree with Isildur--this sounds even more painful. But a system that I could see working would be something like:

There are X wand locations. 10-15% of them have a wand at any given point, but the wands are NOT tied to each character. Anytime any wand is retrieved, it moves to a new location on the next pop.

This puts all mages on a level playing field and leaves multiple sleek blacks (for example) out there at any given moment so the "impossible" ones are not necessarily the only ones available.

Another option that I think would be a good compromise, even those the IMMs don't want any lists published, is a list of simply which AREAS contain a wand. Something like:

SHIELD:
-1
-2
-3

AURA:
-X
-Y
-Z

BARRIER:
-A
-B
-C

It still encourages exploration without giving away too many details. New players have an idea of where to look in general and they could ask in character about specifics.

In any case, I *love* detect artifact.

Make it fire with an alternative message on all areas that *could* be a sleek spot. Make it fire with near certainty, or based on skill percent. Then after exploring thoroughly with one mage, each player should be able to make their own personal list.

Let's say that you have 100 locations and 1 wand hidden within them. Now, let's assume that you have 200 locations and 2 wands hidden within them.

Now, let's assume that your get a wand list from a friend, containing 30 locations, all of which are correct. Let's consider how this affects things in this new and current sleek system.

In current system, the chance of finding your wand in the locations in your list is 30%, for both cases (or more correctly, they can expect to find 0.3 wand locations fromt). It is also an insta win if you happen to find it, as the probability of finding wand in that same location is 100% after that.

In the new system, the initial probability of finding a wand is also 30%. However, if you find one of your two wands from those 30 locations, the probability of the wand repopping into those 30 locations in your list is only 15%. In addition, the reward is only one wand instead of guaranteed wand spot for the rest of the game.

1000 locations and 10 wands would make the probability a wand repop to your list's locations 3%. In all of these cases, the list gives you an initial advantage, which eventually diminishes as the wands eventually repop in to locations that are not in the list. If these wands are not found, the 30 locations eventually dry out, none of them containing a wand.

Let's think of the newbies, who do not possess wand lists. The odds of a newbie finding a sleek do not depend on the amount of possible wand locations, but rather, of number of wands/total locations in the game. Since total locations >> wand locations, newbies win if you add more wand locations while keeping the wand density the same. It'll actually become less tedious to find the wands without a list while the tedium of the list users increases.

As for Immortal work put in, the beauty of the system is that letting even compromised locations stay in the game helps to reduce the effectiveness of the lists in the long run as you keep adding new locations. You should also remember that longer the list, more the tedium involved in checking all of the list's spots. Not to mention that the new locations add to the immersion of the game in form of less repetition.

I say this as a guy that mostly roll explorers. I have walked through almost all areas (not the newest ones) several times and explored them pretty well. Sure there are tons of things I don't know about quests and secrets but all in all I know cf pretty well.

How would it be fun for me, playing my 300 hour old character, to run through 30+ areas I already know very well to check locations just because I used my last shield wand? And then I need to do it again. And again. And again.

... It would:

Buff up Paladins, Shamans, druids, Ragers.

Mostly ragers, as DB would really #### anyone up. Paladins would get real juicy as well. Most others would be pretty screwed over against those classes.

Warriors would see the smallest effect save for above classes, and healers. But they'd still be hurting.

Mages... Too bad, no more mages in CF and ragers would only be hutning... Well, anyone else. ^^

Anyways, not sure why I posted this. I'd like SOME change, but I have no idea what a solution would be, so that's why I haven't posted anything on the subject before.

I think you've done enough nice things for a while now after Zanta Zulg. So, I suggest you just store what you read for a while in the back of your head somewhere and leave it at that for a while.

And again, thanks for Zanta Zulg 2011.

Always shoot first and then call whatever you hit the target.

>Warriors would see the smallest effect save for above classes,

I'm not sure this is the case -- in practice, warriors more than any other class farm out the shield/aura potions, stoneskin, etc.

Personally when I play a warrior I'm lucky to have even as much as stoneskin up for a fight, but if you look at who actually gets this stuff it's mostly warriors.

Maybe that's in part because warrior is such a populous class.

I think in part it has to do with other classes having access to none potion/consumable forms for DR. The warrior class is unique that is has no standard class DR i.e sanc, trance, etc, and cannot use one or more of the following scrolls, talismans, or wands.

Except for assassins (and they get trance for DR) it feels like other classes all have easier means of prepping for DR then trying to farm limited shield/aura preps.

I think this is to say that warriors rely on preps than empowered classes, but less so than most magi. Most classes could theoretically compete, but you would see either a lot more posturing, or a lot more dying when a huge chunk of damage reduction leaves the game.


Ultimately, I don't think that turning off preps breaks the game completely, but it would require a lot of rebalancing if we were really trying to get it right. In any case, it's not like there's a horde of deathful healers, shamans and paladins out there. They could use a golden age

The idea of not being able to prep at all is unbalancing.

There are a lot of people who can pretty much instakill you almost at will if you allow that, so you'd just avoid them all the time. Which isn't fun for them or you.

Taking a giant flurry with your vuln being exploited while unprepped sucks, especially if you just took damage from a spellbane moments earlier.

Maybe just switch off barrier.

That leaves survivability options without enabling "god mode". More or less.

Just because some people are saying it doesn't mean the majority want it.

It feels to me as if this hurts the majority to punish a minority.

You must know that a full scale removal of preps will create an imbalance that could be extremely bad for the game.

Removing flight potions alone would screw up game balance.

Please don't do this.

This to me falls under the standard 'players don't understand good and bad features'. Preps the way they exist in CF are a bar to entry to the game. They keep people from playing and enjoying the game and they exist to make people who have less skill but more longevity have an easier time in fights. They also make balance issues less obvious, since they "go away" when one side is significantly over-prepped.

The counter to numbers imbalance is separation skills like summon/nightgaunt/anti-lag skills/etc. The counter to consumables is to use them yourself. Consumables have never been a counter to group fights because any competent person will recognize the threat and counter with their own consumables (at which point, they'll also still have the numerical advantage).

There's a reason why CF is the only game I've ever seen with a system like this - that's because it's a bad feature.

The prep game in CF has always been the deciding "skill factor" and has always favored cheating or inside knowledge. It's also always been something that, if you played for more than a year or so and didn't realize that you were hugely disadvantaged by not cheating, you've been a sucker and are mandated to get dominated by everyone else playing the game.

You can spend 3+ years exploring to learn what other people can learn over a skype convo. I've been saying for years that preps, specifically, are bad for the game. They're bad for game balance because too many of them stack together and they're bad for competition because they favor elitism and OOC mechanics. Incognito/Daurwyn is probably the only person I've ever met that wasn't an Imm and wasn't in an OOC ring that can hold their own in most fights. Everyone else I've known that was any "good" at the game from an objective standpoint was getting fed by OOC info and OOC mechanics.

I think the biggest problem with ABS is that you can use it for every single fight if you found all your spots. I personally have never had trouble locating wands on any mage (Well over 10 heros) except one sienna I couldn't seem to find. And I love playing ragers, even though I rarely make berserkers... so I'm pretty unbiased.

I think everything would be fixed if we just removed all the area explore locations, especially the damn one in Trothon. And made cooldowns on zapping. I am guilty of full abs'ing knowing that I won't die and the only outcome is either a pk, or they get away. And it's because I have limitless wands, I don't have to be judicious with the charges. I think making us use our charges more wisely, especially for raid situations, is the key plain and simple. Put a 30-40 hour cooldown on barrier after zapping, extend the length of sleeks by 4-5 hours. Then do the same to aura and shield with a 20-30 hour cooldown.

Then mages will gather their wands slightly easier, yet have to use their charges wisely.

Removing all the preps from the game would completely bust what we have. You guys would have a year of rebalancing to do for absolutely no reason. There *needs* to be preps on this game, you need to get caught with your fly down sometimes, you need to enlarge and reduce, you need protection vs align on warriors, and many others. Without these things, CF would turn into POS, it isn't fun to just run up and fight everyone KNOWING exactly what will happen.

Is when they get a ####ty location.

I honestly don't understand all the mania over the wand list thing. It's only really a competitive advantage if you're too lazy to sit down and list all the mid to high level mages and mage areas you know. For like 10 minutes. Doing that should give you anywhere from 30 to 100 mobs. Maybe more, I don't know your life. They won't all actually be spots, but with DA you just have to run by, so no biggie.

From that original list, start asking mages you know about spots. 90% of the people I talk to about spots are very open and willing to share. From those conversations, add, confirm, and subtract from your original list and make it better.

Really, if you talk to 3 people every time you log in, and 2 of them tell you a spot or two each, you'll have a wand list in like 2 weeks. And it will probably be more accurate than whatever's circulating.

Z, I see no reason to change the status quo on this one. Usually I want things to change, but this is fine. People will bitch no matter what you do.

I'm not knowledgeable of the whole wand system, being mostly a CF newbie, but maybe a solution can be crafted from some of these elements.

* Severely reduce the copy number of sleek wands
* Give mages an ability to sense if a wand is in the area when they enter the area. This can be either on a mob, or on a player. Give them a stronger sense if the wand is in the same room. (Alternatively, make the wands locateable)
* Let wands crumble 1-2 days real-life after they've been taken from a mob (or maybe even on logout).

That way, the wands are relatively easy to find, but will frequently be on players ingame, and are difficult to monopolize. The maximum copy number of sleek wands can be used to regulate the amount of A/B/S on the average mage, and can be tied for example to veil strength or something else.

With mages, it's either you tool them, or they tool you (and your buddies). The with-or-without ABS difference is pretty silly, imo.

Also, finding your sleeks, as it seems to be now, is too much a make or break factor. I sure don't feel like playing a mage anytime soon, because I don't like the idea of risking to waste many hours and a good character, on an attempt to find my sleeks and not succeeding. Since I am not much of a PKer, that likely means I get my ass kicked on a regular basis. And, there's only so much I can take of that, so I'd more likely just quit, rather than stay masochisticly looking for those elusive sleeks.

Or, it's possible I find them, but they are on a difficult mob(s). Or maybe I am lucky, and it's on an easy mob. Long story short, it's too much of a lottery.

So! My solution:

Remove the whole 'I need to find my sleeks' thing by giving ABS to all mage classes by default, at an appropriate level. But, the caveat is, that it should be less powerfull. It should level the playing field, not make you dominate it again.

Sleeks as they are now, can still exist, but more as a (very) limited, non player specific, reward for those willing to look for it. They're rare, sure, but they're there for anyone willing to put in the effort of looking for them. But, you don't really NEED them, to be competitive.

Not to totally sidetrack this or turn this into an ad hominem attack or anything, but weren't you the same player who just a month or two ago was going OOC and trying to convince people that one of your characters was played by a newbie so they'd feel guilty about PKing you?

Not that what you said doesn't stand or fall on its own merits, but after that it's just so hard for me to take high-minded "for the good of the game" rhetoric from you very seriously. And maybe that's just a fault of mine, but there it is.

Sure, was just having fun. I was disappointed nobody commented on the role more, because I thought it was pretty funny. I don't think every character has to be serious, and I'm sure a lot of people got a kick out of killing me over and over. Anyways, the idea is the average player will be tougher PK wise, but honestly, not by much, because a decent amount of them don't play mages, and a decent amount of those find their wands anyways, so I don't see the reason for clinging to a system we know is flawed when it doesn't increase the power curve very much - look at my last few mage characters - scion AP, got smashed, probably would have condied before lightning control if I didn't delete, necromancer without sleek wand, etc.

I notice you haven't posted anything of substance on this thread, but obviously you realize (having read a post where you said that ST as you imagined couldn't exist in this game) that this probably can't continue on as-is. So what's your opinion? The Zulgh knee-jerk reaction is totally expected, and a ban is half expected, so I wouldn't ever post this while actively playing - the wand system is the elephant in the room. Why the hesitation to make it an open system, or at least have an illusionsry sleek appear (detect artifact would still be useful because you wouldn't have to kill those mobs to find out which one is yours with it).

Hey, since you're fessing up to stuff...did you play one of those uncaballed "E" rangers (names both started with E) who perma'd for the purpose of trying to kill Sulye? Essd was one, that much I remember. Nobody ever fessed up to playing either of them; I've always been curious.

I think one was a human and the other a cloud, or maybe both clouds, I can't remember who I was playing at the time but I remember really hating them and having some long fights. In all honesty though, if I'm playing, I play a lot - I've had 5 hero characters before at the same time, most of them usually end up failing, but if there was some guy that bugged you a lot, it could have been me.

One was a cloud (Essd) and the other (I think) was a human. Oh well. Maybe someone will cop to it.

Bouh bear charge spamming ass bags. Would always be together, sit around and attack anything that moved, then full sac them.

I honestly can't recall two more worthless characters in my three years of CF.

Pretty sure one was not a cloud giant.

> So what's your opinion?

Mostly that I still haven't seen what is, to me, a better idea than the status quo. I've made minor changes and improvements to it over time as they made sense to me but I haven't seen a good idea that replaces it whole-cloth that doesn't create more new problems than it solves.

Maybe it is the case that CF is a kind of game that just can't really exist anymore and we're trying to futilely hold back the tide. Sometimes the players are their own worst enemies -- I don't think we could ever have a Shadow cabal seriously again because people talk in a way they didn't 16 years ago, and maybe wands are at that point too and I'm just refusing to recognize it.

But if that's the case, at this point in my life, I'm as inclined as anything to flip the big switch and just say: "This is a game that had a good run in its time, but it's over now." That isn't my decision to make and it especially would never be my sole decision to make, so don't take that as a threat or anything of the kind. It's just the way I'd be feeling right about now if I actually was the evil dictator of CF I'm sometimes made out to be.

And if you ever do decide to do that, will you put it up for sale?

Starting bid 1 million dollars! My baby needs a college fund!

I appreciate what you all do.

It bothers me to know that he's that upset. I've known you all for years and I would like to go on knowing you for a few more.

At least wait until I have returned to the States!

I'd say my CF mood lately is more stuck in apathy than real upset.

Which is too bad. There's still a lot I'd like to add and do, but somehow whenever I get a bit of free time lately building more CF stuff almost never seems to get the nod.

Fortunately Zulg and a lot of the imms whose work is more unsung are still rocking the house.

I blame baby.

I mean really, he just plays mortals that are awesome and kick ass all the time (Kasir, Sivyh, Sulye that I recall, play a guy that sucks for a change )
You know you should Imm and help out instead of playing chars that always whip my butt.

Daev and Baer are both pretty great, and really I'm amazed at how much they did for CF an still do for it. Hell, I try my best to have fun and make others have fun, and I got burned out from just one char, mostly due to the bitching of a few on a near consistent basis.

It's time for a break for you Imms. I really think the Imms could all use some time where they actually spend some time enjoying CF instead of keeping it going for us and constantly, you know, being Imms.

Imm-played mortal fest time, permas Allowed!

Screw the haters that complain about it, I want to see how bad ass a Daev-Baer perma would really be. I don't care if they kill me twenty times. It's not like Twist didn't do that to me when he played Dupmasione anyway
And a Zulgh-Scarab perma!
And an Iunna-Thror!
And of course, get Ysaloerye back in action damn it! ( want to play a rager follower of her one day!)

Ah well, just wishful thinking, but I do think it's easier to appreciate the fun of CF from a mortal side than from an immortal one.

>a guy that sucks for a change

Already on it!

You know, I know you're kidding, but if they ever do pull 'the big kill switch' you should consider this.

I thought about this years ago (admittedly back when I was a lot younger and didn't have a mortgage or family). I was totally willing to write you guys a check, a decent check actually, for a copy of the mud. I'd have been willing to sign any agreements, accept a perma ban on the real mud, basically agree to never be heard from again or contact anyone who played the 'real cf'.

The chance to have any toon, see any ability, make modifications, finally get to see things like Hell, etc. Heck yeah. Essentially the chance to play the mechanics of the game however I want without having to deal with the players? I'd pay you for that.

The only reason I never suggested this for real 6-7 years ago is because I knew no one would take it seriously. But if you do kill the mud, gimme a call.

I haven't been playing for the past couple months, for my own reasons, but do keep weighing a return. I didn't want to post during this time, but I feel kind of compelled.

>-- I don't think we could ever have a Shadow cabal seriously
>again because people talk in a way they didn't 16 years ago,
>and maybe wands are at that point too and I'm just refusing to
>recognize it.

I think you're right about the fact that people will talk about things like the Shadow cabal, and wands. But one thing to think about is: was it ever really like you imagined it? You see players looking at the past with rose-tinted glasses all the time (here in this very thread, in fact). Maybe there has always been a certain amount of OOC contact and the Shadow cabal existed in spite of it, as did the wands, as did hell. Players may have gotten less honorable, if you want to call it that, but maybe it's just a matter of degree.

Maybe the rest of us can have fun in spite of those people.

>But if that's the case, at this point in my life, I'm as
>inclined as anything to flip the big switch and just say:

I'm sorry to hear that. You deserve to feel better about the work you've put in, because despite all the crap you have created a lot of entertainment for a lot of people. And the things you do are still appreciated. I hope that you'll find the energy to care again, because you are an important part of this game, and the silent majority

>"This is a game that had a good run in its time, but it's over
>now." ...threat or anything of the kind. It's just the way I'd be
>feeling right about now if I actually was the evil dictator of
>CF I'm sometimes made out to be.

I don't know to what extent you do feel that way or not, based on what you've said, but I'll pretend you do.

The question is: why? Even if we suppose CF has to give up on some of that secrecy element, is it really not worth anything without it? You might say that CF just isn't CF without that part, but I think it is. Games change over time, and CF has changed a lot in 17 years, mostly for the better. Maybe CF can't be the CF you knew even ten years ago, but it can still be a great game.

To all the implementors:
What would you do if this were Josiah or Krikov? You would just treat it like what it is, a couple of bad players who want to hurt the game. I know it hurts to have a lot of hard work crapped on like this, but if you zap all the preps, take the game down, or do anything else that really harms the gameplay dynamic, then you're basically just letting a few a-holes ruin the game for everyone else. They're trying to emotionally hijack you and get you to screw things up out of frustration. Please don't let them.

As in this statement:

"Maybe it is the case that CF is a kind of game that just can't really exist anymore and we're trying to futilely hold back the tide."

Basically, that the type of CF you have in mind, could never have existed long-term. Much like a security system (think crypto) that relies on its methods being secret it doomed to fail when the algorithm is eventually discovered (and has weaknesses) so is the "Shadow" cabal where characters don't know about it because players don't know about it.

I'm butchering my analogy, but basically the very idea that something that can be kept secret from one player to the next OOC is just as broken as trying to stop that information from passing IC. So long as there is value to the information, there will be incentive to pass it (via whatever means). If you make the information available to everyone, a la, how something works (like public key encryption) there is no benefit to having this information (everyone has it), but passing your own key or whatever is detrimental to yourself, so keeping it secret is to your own benefit.

Think about it like this. If you wanted a Shadow cabal in today's Thera, the best way I can think to do it is either A) No one knows who is a member of Shadow (as in your character doesn't know the other members of their own cabal) and being discovered is an instant death sentence. Everyone "knows" there is a Shadow cabal, but the members are strongly disincentivized from being discovered themselves and have no ability to out others, or something to that effect.

Or, you go the opposite way, sort of like Battle's applicant status, where everyone knows who is an applicant and so there is very limited ability to trick a mage and get a cheap kill.

Again, this isn't nearly as coherent as I mean it to be, but hopefully the general message is clear. CF can't exist now the way you want it to not because of increased communication, but rather because it could never really exist that way anyway. Better to devise a better system than to continue to try to achieve security through obscurity.

Hopefully this isn't taken as a hit on CF. It is an awesome game, but I think in some ways it is attempting to be something that is simply not possible, but that doesn't mean I want it to go away.

With dozens of other highly popular competitive combat systems out there with similar mechanics to CF you can't see any ideas on how to balance consumables?

I mean, there's a point in my life where I bought that line but then I played games like Guild Wars and such and saw that competitive fast paced quality combat had nothing to do with giving people with more time in free wins to make them happy about grinding.

I have a really, really hard time thinking that preps has anything to do with a sense of accomplishment and everything to do with a leg up advantage to a handful of people at the expense of everyone else.

Let's first list the goals of the current design:

1. Make it so gathering wands isn't so quick and easy that most mages have a/s/b for every single fight.

2. Create an "exploration requirement" and/or reward characters who explore.

3. Create a tactical weakness for mages; force them to put themselves in sub-optimal situations where they might be ambushed by someone who knows their wand location.

Now, what are the peoples' complaints:

A. It gives an unfair advantage to people with OOC access to wand lists, thereby screwing placers without such access.

B. It creates a "lottery system" whereby a given character can potentially be disadvantaged by receiving crappy sleek spots.

C. It forces players with broad knowledge of wand locations (irrespective of how it was acquired) to mechanically check a long list of potential locations (i.e. not "real" exploration).

So how can we mitigate A, B and C while still achieving 1, 2 and 3?

How about this:

* Access to the sleek system comes through edges. There's an edge for each sleek type. Each of these has a level requirement, a (fairly high) exploration xp requirement and a minimal imm xp requirement.

* Each sleek edge activates that sleek type for your character and gives you information about the wand's location. This could be fairly specific or semi-vague (e.g. just the area name). The latter would give players who don't know all the locations the opportunity to do some "real" exploration.

* Each mage gets a single (free) relocate command for each sleek type. This command moves the specified wand type to a new location. Alternately you could make these inexpensive edges. In this case you'd let people take them more than once. When you relocate a wand you get the same location information as above.

* Go over the various wand locations from the perspective of each class and consider dropping some for certain classes. The goal would be to make the set of locations (for each class) as equally desirable as possible. If a certain location is "super-easy" for invokers (compared to other mages) then don't give that spot to invokers. Ditto for spots that are uniquely difficult for certain classes.

This seems satisfy 1-2-3 while more or less mitigating A-B-C.

Thoughts/disagreements?

For what it is worth I really like this solution.

While I like this alternative, it will lead to a lot of lowbies begging for a key to organia.

Hell, I'd be cool with a high imm exp requirement.

In the end though, those that don't have to jump through this hoop are still just as strong as those that are designed around having to.

>Sleeks already have a level requirement

I know; I was just carrying that requirement forward into my edge-based system.

>While I like this alternative, it will lead to a lot of
>lowbies begging for a key to organia.

Maybe, maybe not. By the time you reach a high enough level to unlock the sleek edges maybe you can kill that mob on your own. Goodies just request.

lvl 30s have a hell of a time killing that mob.

Take a group. Or kill it when you're in the high 30s or low 40s.

I'm kind of curious where this whole remove all preps is going, but -

I think your idea is too quick and easy for mages. Sleek ABS is incredible. The reason people are deleting at 100 hours is because they've played a mage with unlimited access to raw ABS power and now feel entitled to it. I felt the same way when i went from an assassin with 100% assassinate to one with 75%, only I didn't have a mechanical scheme to blame.

I think your idea could use an additional restraint, like your spot only generates two wands for you at any given time, and if someone looted your wands, it would not generate any more until those wands are used/destroyed.

It would be nice to tie ABS into the aspect of CF a bunch of us love the most - competition over limited resources - as well as exploration and secrecy.

If I finally manage to kill that person, I just need to give those wands to my friend who rolls up a lowbie char and just makes sure to never hit the hoard code.

Since I wouldn't be suffering by having them hoard it (unlike if they were hoarding a nice piece of gear I could use).

Yes. Just like you could cheat and have your lowbie ooc friend hoard a bunch of align-restricted gear your current character could not use (e.g., prayer beads, Armageddon, hummingbirds, etc.). Does that happen all the time?

I think out of all the cheating in the game, this would be the easiest to detect and remedy.