All other elf races can be. I don't see why a dark-elf can't be a bard.

Besides, I wrote a cool role idea that could fit a drow bard really well.

Can I petition the imm staff to play one?

You think an arial sings for crap, that would be worse by far. You'd be better off going high/wood elf, turn yourself evil, go without for a bit and Rp it out, get songs back, and be an evil fallen elf bard.

Plus, think about dark elf culture, do they really seem all sing songy like high and wood elves? Dark Elves just don't really have a bard persona. Mostly they're deceitful cruel evil beings. Imagine a dark elf bard singing in the comedic rep. I personally have a hard time seeing any bards as evil, for that very reason. Cause unless they sing tragic, the music does not fit an evil too well.

People want dwarf bards too, but I don't think that will happen either. And an epic dwarf is something easily imagined. Though I do think a tragic dark elf bard is plausible, if he could only use tragic.

But, never hurts to ask right?
PS: I want to play a dwarven epic bard defender in battle! Rally those villagers and then get drunk. Best part would be that drinking before I log in would only enhance my RP.

> PS: I want to play a dwarven epic bard defender in battle! Rally those villagers and then get drunk. Best part would be that drinking before I log in would only enhance my RP.

How's that any different from right now?

I really can't imagine a drow having such low charisma. I think of them as pretty much the same as elves except with black skin and white hair. They are cruel, but, highly intelligent which adds to their charm! Sort of like evil geniuses.

Think if it this way. Charisma has nothing to do with appearance. Everyone in Thera knows they are evil geniuses, so are you going to trust them? Charisma stats for a race I think takes into account a large part how a race would be perceived by other races in thera. And I know the flaw of humans having 23, but that's just a function of how stats work for them.

Charismatic is not really something a dark elf is, because no matter what people would never trust them or be persuaded by them. Simply because you know they are evil geniuses that will stab you in the back.

I know charisma is not only appearance. Charisma also has to do with personality. Essentially, the ability to influence people with your personality.

Now, the way I see the drow culture is that it is chaotic, but, it still has a social hierarchy of sorts. Houses, matrons, female dominant etc. Most drow I envision being not only evil, but, very selfish and power hungry. There are constant power struggles happening in the drow society and it isn't always in the open. The drow are much to cunning to openly kill their adversaries to advance themselves so they engage in games of subterfuge and intrigue. They make allies that serve their purpose to advance their position. This requires a great deal of charm to accomplish. Some, obviously, would be better at it than the others.

Now as drow come to the surface, yes, they are quite untrustable. This only would require them to rely on their intelligence and cunning even more. Which in times, would require them to persuade others that they aren't as bad as the rumors say. Think of it like a used car salesman. We all know they are not to be trusted but when you are sitting in front of one, boy, can they do a good job to convince you otherwise. The fact is there are all kinds of evil beings on the surface of Thera for a drow to interact with and "use" to accomplish their means. Those other evil beings may have similar agenda's and are willing to take the risk of doing business with a drow. That doesn't eliminate the fact that they cannot be persuasive and highly charismatic.

Lastly, why would drow society not have use for a bard? I just see a drow bard being a bit darker and more macabre than other bards. Look at all the artwork in Kteng's laboratory. I always like to think of that stuff being done by a drow bard.

I think that likening a drow to a used car salesman doesn't indicate the depth of the relationship between the Drow and the rest of Thera.

It seems to me that an encounter with a Drow is going to be much more akin to a run in with a Nazi. He may be exceedingly well spoken, profoundly intelligent, dressed impeccably, and telling you all the things that you want to hear. However, at the end of the day you know that unless you fit into a very narrow demographic that he does not have your best interests at heart.

You may want to trust him. You may find him endlessly charming. You may even truly enjoy his company. But all that charisma will be undone by the fact that you can clearly see his motivations because he wears them on his sleeve.

>But all that
>charisma will be undone by the fact that you can clearly see
>his motivations because he wears them on his sleeve.


I lolled at this. Very clever

You still seemed to have gotten my point. I do like your analogy though. It makes me think of the "Jew Hunter" Nazi Colonel from that movie Inglorious Basterds. The man did a lot of things through fear, but, does that make him any less charismatic? Hell no, the actor was nominated for an oscar because he played such a devilishly charismatic character.

I think you all are being too narrow in your definitions of charisma. Dictionary.com defines charisma as this:

1. Theology . a divinely conferred gift or power.

2. a spiritual power or personal quality that gives an individual influence or authority over large numbers of people.

3. the special virtue of an office, function, position, etc., that confers or is thought to confer on the person holding it an unusual ability for leadership, worthiness of veneration, or the like.

Never once in that definition does it mention TRUST. It does, however, mention AUTHORITY AND INFLUENCE. I think drow can fit into definition #2 very well. It may not be through your typical means, but, they still can accomplish this.

>2. a spiritual power or personal quality that gives an individual influence or authority over large numbers of people.

>Never once in that definition does it mention TRUST. It does, however, mention AUTHORITY AND INFLUENCE.

It seems to me that based on this definition that a Drow should be capapble of having tremendous charisma.

I suppose it comes down to a matter of game balance. How much would the game change if Drow CHR was bumped up to 22 or 23? Would a Drow bard be overpowered? I'm inclined to think that the answer is no.

I'm realizing that one funny aspect of this discussion is that the value of charisma as a stat has been an issue since Dungeons and Dragons was in its infancy. I'm trying to remember which AD&D supplement attempted to add the stat of "comeliness" because charisma and physical attractiveness were entertwined, but shouldn't really have been. It may have been "Unearthed Arcana."

I'm pretty sure it just remained in the game because people needed a dump stat. I know when I was a kid that nobody, but nobody, ever actually played a bard.

Yeah, I don't think they would be either. Give them the same Charisma as an elf. It wouldn't be any different than an elf bard.

Yeah, it's an interesting debate. I didn't play that much AD&D to remember giving a crap about charisma. Although, I do want to know about the mechanics factor of this. The imms had to have made a conscious decision not to let drow be bards and my guess its more for mechanics reasoning than anything else. I'd just love to know what those reasons were!

any self-respecting dark-elf trying to train as a bard would be laughed out of their House and then Teth-Azeleth in short order. Dark-elves have way more badass things to learn, like priesthood, magic and weapons-mastery than singing froofy songs.

This is a roleplaying game where we are encouraged to use our imaginations!

If I wanted to roleplay a shy dwarf that didn't drink - could I? Why sure! Even though most dwarves are stereotypically loud, abrasive and like to drink. So why not a drow bard?

Maybe drow bards would be limited to tragic repertoire only or something. Who knows? I just don't see any reason why it can't be done. Yes, there are major lines that you just can't cross - like a minotaur outlander, or a duergar paladin. But, I don't think a drow bard falls into that category. Why can't the drow have an artistic side? Maybe its gruesome, maybe it glorifies cruelty, maybe its very dark and chilling, but, that doesn't change the fact it could be art. Like I pointed to before - look at all the paintings in Kteng's lab. What, did Kteng commission some human to come down an paint that?

I realize that bard's are known for singing mostly. But, from a game mechanics side there isn't much else you can have a bard do in combat thats artistic. I mean, are they going to paint you with poison paint or something? Stick a quill in your eye? I feel that bard's are the artisans of the realms and that goes beyond song.

I'm not arguing mechanics, don't honestly care. As it stands, evil has a more limited access to support characters, which fits the align/class themes and balance of CF. This may be a big or not-so-big part of it.

You say you "just don't see any reason why it can't be done", but do you have a reason that it should/must be done, besides the fact that they have voices, the ability to write, and that there are paintings in K'Teng's?

You could certainly use your imagination, and attempt to RP a dark-elf "bard", just like many other characters have used the rp angle of "stuck in one class, yearning to be another". Bard doesn't fit dark-elf rp as I've always seen it: instead of singing/"art-ing" about tragic, depressing, chilling, dark, cruel ####, you instead go out and make it happen. Dark-elves are kind of go-getters like that. I see art as a secondary pursuit/consideration, if it's considered at all, for their kind. Seems more racial, therefore inherent, than cultural/learned. But now this is semantics. Like it always was. Or something.

Why do you have such a huge boner for dark-elf bards? Generally, unpickable race/class combos are bad fits for lore, mechanics, or balance reasons. Sure, there's been an elf necromancer, and other examples. But... who cares?

Because, I had a fun role idea that it fit perfectly with a drow bard. I came here to the forum asking why its been setup that drow cannot be bards. I was actually hoping for an Imm answer because it had to have been discussed in the past at some point. That didn't happen. I did get answers from a lot of the player base giving their reasons why they don't think drow should be bards. Now I'm debating my position with the rest of you. If it seems like I have a huge boner for one, that is because I'm trying to support my position on the topic! It really at this point seems to me to be a matter of subjective opinion. I'm sure it will never happen, oh well. It was a fun discussion though.

After thinking about it a bit. I wasn't comparing a used car salesman to the drow. I was using the used car salesman as an example of someone who could be have a reputation for not being trusted yet is still persuasive and charismatic. In that regard, I'm not off on anything. I still do like your analogy of the drow

NT

IIRC, Jindicho had some sort of a family curse on him. Was he also missing an arm?

My take on Drow society is that anyone, slave or royal, who was trailing around an ancestral curse would be singled out for execution and an ending of the line. From my POV they would have a pretty strong tradition of eugenics.

Granted, he could have kept it secret, but I think that burdens of the type you were trying to convey with Jindicho are very much part of the Human experience.

As Jindicho's biggest (only?) fan I think Human was the way to go, but you could have certainly gotten some mileage out of halfie.

Damn solid RP. Still one of my fav. characters of the age. Evil SOB to the core, luckily I was on his decent side and a hero when he came up so he couldn't PK my herald ass.

>It seems to me that an encounter with a Drow is going to be much more akin to a run in with a Nazi. He may be exceedingly well spoken, profoundly intelligent, dressed impeccably, and telling you all the things that you want to hear. However, at the end of the day you know that unless you fit into a very narrow demographic that he does not have your best interests at heart.

You may want to trust him. You may find him endlessly charming. You may even truly enjoy his company. But all that charisma will be undone by the fact that you can clearly see his motivations because he wears them on his sleeve.<

That's exactly how I was trying to play Jindicho