Stupid question as it may seem.

I have mastered (100%) Disarm, Dirt Kicking, Strangle and few skills. But they are hard to land. I have seen that out of 20 times I tried dirt kicking, 6-10 times it fails. Out of 20 times, Strangle fail around 5+. I mastered the skills so it can barely fail and I can rely on these skills, but that doesn't seems to be the case.

I have been told couple of times (once by Cador) using an example. You learn your skills in walking when you were a baby and still at times you trip for no reason. That is how the skills work.

If the above is true, then:
1. What is the fail rate of a mastered (100%) skill?
2. And do spells fail like skills do?
3. If the skill is not mastered, what is the fail rate of that? (Given that the skill is at 75%)

But tripping on your own self happens once in a while, not every couple of days.

______________________________________
Come to the Darkside...We got cookies

>If the above is true, then:
>1. What is the fail rate of a mastered (100%) skill?

Depends on the skill. Some skills it is 100% (sneak/hide), some skills there are lots of variables (bash, disarm).

>2. And do spells fail like skills do?

No. One bonus of being a spellcaster.

>3. If the skill is not mastered, what is the fail rate of
>that? (Given that the skill is at 75%)

Same as #1.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

>>2. And do spells fail like skills do?

>No. One bonus of being a spellcaster.

Won't you sometimes fail if magic is waning? Don't know personally because I hate playing mages.


Another skill question:

Does dash increase the success of a given skill? It seems like my warrior rarely fails the skill if the dash is successful.

This is probably the most sensible post I've ever seen from you, possibly because it has no obvious bias.

Seriously though, I think you've hit on some possible issues without being deflected by the trib/outlander issues.

If you agree with my walking problem, then tell me that you have never mis-pronounced words from english vocabulary? It does not happen that often, but it does happen. So the spellcaster should miss the spell (@ 100%) sometimes on the basis of mis-pronounciation and loosing concentration.

Basic skills like Bash, trip & disarm can fail even when mastered as they are taught to almost most classes in one form or another. But specialized skills of an assassin (Kans, Kote, etc.) or a specialized warrior should not fail alot (once @ 100%) as they are very much specialized to that class/character only.

Example:
1. Very few people know how to operate a boat legally, they are called "Captain". Boating accidents do happen but its happens once in a while not everytime.
2. Not alot of people know how to use a gun. These people go to shooting ranges to master the art of shooting. Once they become very good, they do sometime miss but not 4-5 times if they shot 20 rounds.

The advicable fail rate should be 1% or less for the skills mastered (100%).

______________________________________
Come to the Darkside...We got cookies

Skills like kote and kans aren't like pissing without hitting your shoes. There's somebody else involved, who don't want his wrist broken or whatever. Those other skills (bind wounds, for example), generally don't fail when perfected.

At least when it comes to the real world, there is some truth to what you are saying. The thing about the issues you're raising is that they're the way they are for balance reasons. If sweeping changes were made to skills to make them realistic, then other changes would have to be made to keep things even.

If mastered skills worked 99% of the time in all cases, a lot of them would have to go way down in power.

There are also definitely cases in which our skills work an unrealisticly high amount, even when mastered. Performing a wristlock in the middle of a dynamic stand-up fight is very very very hard and opinions may vary, but personally I think you're lucky to get a wrist lock 1% of the time against a resisting oponent in the real world.

Consider that you're not working against a target dummy, but a person who is trying to avoid your attack. If you are fighting against a person of approximately equal skill, are you going to be able to disarm them every time you try? Are you going to trip them every time you make the attempt? Watch some sport fighting, and tell me if every technique these highly skilled individuals try, succeeds as they want it to. You'll realize that the vast majority of techniques actually do fail.

Still, all of that is basically irrelevant, because the issue in CF is making it balanced so that fights are fun.

100% does not mean you can always perform the act flawlessly. It means you are as good as you are going to get at that ability.

Example:
1. Very few people know how to operate a boat legally, they are called "Captain". Boating accidents do happen but its happens once in a while not everytime.
2. Not alot of people know how to use a gun. These people go to shooting ranges to master the art of shooting. Once they become very good, they do sometime miss but not 4-5 times if they shot 20 rounds.

2B. If the target is moving, small, or distant, very accurate shooters develop an appreciable miss rate.

3. A baseball player who is one of the best in the world can get a base hit roughly 3/10 of the time.

4. The most accurate basketball players in the world can shoot a three-point basket against a defender roughly 4/10 of the time.

What's your point? That different physical activities have differing rates of success? It's completely ridiculous to arbitrarily choose two scenarios and conclude "All activities by trained humans always succeed."

The advicable fail rate should be 1% or less for the skills mastered (100%).

On what grounds? Because you said so? Becuase you'd like to see a MUD where everyone played assassins?

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

You wrote:

"100% does not mean you can always perform the act flawlessly. It means you are as good as you are going to get at that ability."

You're right, and that's exactly why ALL actions, meaning all spells, communes, skills, powers, etc. A mage should sometimes stumble on the words to a spell every now and then, bite his tongue accidentally. Humans just are not perfect. So even at 100%, a mage should mis-cast - not fail a save, but fail to get the spell off in the first place. Spell save and the rest mean the caster/communer did act flawlessly, it's just that something the target did foiled or partially foiled the spell/commune. A communer should fail to get the right whatever go have that commune go out. The fighter should fail to whatever - as already happens.

You can argue where that fail rate should be set - fail rates shouldn't be the same for every ability and class, as you so eloquently described in your post, and I'd certainly support a much lower fail rate for spells/communes than for many warrior/assassin/thief abilities - but there should be some fail rate. Otherwise, as things are, your statement is a lie, and for all the mages and communers (and cabal powers) in the game, 100% does in fact mean they always perform the act flawlessly, and that's just wrong.

Some skills always work as well. And if an attacker's skill does go through, the defender doesn't get an additional saving throw to further foil it.

There's no analogue for magic, and no 'reality check' there, so we're free to attach any fail rate we feel is balanced, zero included. Maybe once you're good enough at grabbing magical or divine power, you do always succeed, with varying strength of results.

I don't see the current system as broken, and I can think of lots of other ways to spend my time.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

At this point, I could rewrite all the skill echoes so it's "Bob jumps out of the way of your totally awesomely executed boneshatter." to be the analogue of a save, but that sounds like less fun than reading the telephone book.

Or I could add saving throws to ignore a bunch of the skills. You hamstring someone, but damn it, they make the save and they're not bleeding and don't take any damage.

None of this sounds like fun to do, and none of it sounds like it would make the game better.

I respect your opinions on a lot of aspects of the game; the way melee classes balance out vs. mages isn't one of them anymore, if ever it was.

Consider that casters/communers also deal with hurdles like saving throws that 'skill' characters typically don't, and have to deal with the likes of deafen, tiger claw, manacles, worldbind, silence, spellbane, etc.

This isn't a game where all classes have the same challenges and play the same way. I'm not sure why we'd want it to be.