I just wanted to reply on this forum, from a thread that was started on the other webpage. The title of the thread was "Why do you think we lack players compared to other top ranked MUDS." I do not have an account on the other site, but I do on here, so let me tell you what I think.

I have been playing CF for about six months now, maybe. I'm still a newbie, but I'm not a complete newbie. I can walk to most places in the world by myself, and when I can't I have those webpage to help me with maps, and other stuff. The only part of the game where I'm still a newbie is when it comes to prep. My favorite characters on here are warriors, and paladins. Paladins are great because you have a great prep in protection, and sanctuary, so you last a while in a fight, but with warriors you need so much more. I am right now a young warrior. I think i'm rank of 22 and a dagger specialists. I'm right now also 3-0 in pk fights, but that's without any preps. I know when I get higher in rank preps are going to mean everything, but that's just what I do not get. You have a game here where everyone has their own powers, and spells, but then you go out and buy potions, scrolls, wands, ect... That give you all the powers of another class. Every pk at higher ranks is based on how much you prep. If you dont prep for a fight at higher ranks, then you get destroyed easily.

Ok, some things that I've noticed as to why I think the playerbase is going down. I've noticed this everytime I log on and dont see to many in my range.

1. Full looting is the number one reason why I think playerbase is going down. I have no reason not to believe this. I am a paladin and I get alot of newbies learning with me sometimes. They get jumped by others out of my range, and I cannot help them stay alive. They do not mind dying, but when they come back to the corpse everything is gone. The warrior they were fighting is stacked with hero equipment, which is BS right there, and takes absolutely everything from the corpse. There is no rp in his looting, there is nothing from which he needs from this newbie corpse. This newbie replies back to me OOC ofcourse that this place is horrible and I'm leaving. Full looting is the #1 reason why people leave this place. I was full looted a while back all the time, didn't understand why, but it happened. I rage deleted too alot of the time. Others always complain about full looters, but I've seen 95% of you take everything when you really dont need anything. The pk's i get, I take some stuff, but not everything. Mostly coins, and a few pieces to see if they are better than my piece of eq that I have currently. I'm still a newbie in a sense, so I dont know much about equipment and what's good. Besides the basic stuff you get at lower ranks. Maybe put restrictions on looting. I know some think that's stupid, but come on. Taking everything from a kill, and leaving others naked when they come back to their corpse. Do you think that's fun starting over? It's just a suggestion, but make limitations on looting, so they can't take so much, or make it so that there is a limit as to how many things you can take out of the corpse. Make those scavengers the same way, but even less. I dont know, it's just a suggestion.

I just believe full looting is the #1 reason why the player base is lower, and newbies aren't trying this place. I'm still a newbie, but is CF years, more of a "mature" newbie ifyou know what I mean.


Just some other suggestions, but still suggestions. Dont make this place to prep necessary, or make those prep pills, and potions very filling, so they can't eat so many pills, potions, ect..

Honestly, I dont call that pk "skill" when you have one player who knows where everything is at. I'm talking all that ABS, and everything else he can think of to get, and going out and just sitting there spamming their spells or skills. Winning the battle because they can sit there longer with their ABS, haste, giant strength, ect... On and the other person doesn't have it, or has minimal. Pk on this mud is based on what you know about preps. If you do not know where preps are at, you will not win pk fights at higher ranks. What makes classes so special when other classes can get the same spells you have from somewhere else in thera?

What I notice from other logs on fight from the other site is that you claim others are the best pk fighters in the world if they are a transmuter who has ABS, and everything else imaginable. He pops back into reality from duo and sits there spamming "corporal softening" it finally takes, then he's spamming neurological disruption, or the other spell transmuters have, but mostly neuro disruption. He's sitting there winning the fight because it's not his skill lever. I mean his skill in knowing where the preps are at verses the other who doesn't. There isn't skill in that. It's more of knowledge vs skill.

I'm so addicted to this place it's so sad. I'm working on two masters degrees right now, but I dont want to do any of my homework because I'm addicted to my paladin whom I'm finally getting the hang of, besides the fact that I can't seem to keep anyone in a fight. I have nothing that knocks them down as a two handed specialists. Between my paladin, and my warrior specialists that I just love.

cont..

One. Full-looting. Yes, full-looting sucks. I'd say it happened to all my characters (other than Kruuank, who got most if not all of his gear back 90% of the time) about half the times I died. Was I pissed? Yes, but you know what, it A) Made me a bit more cautious in how I approached fights (GOOD THING) B) Taught me how to reequip before the end of the ghost timer (GOOD THING) C) In most cases, allowed me to get a better set than the one I had before (REALLY GOOD THING). So, to say full-looting is dropping the playerbase is not exactly a correct statement.

Two. Preps. While useful, they are not vital. If I have a character, and you give me flight, detect invis, and maybe reduce/enlarge, I guarantee you, I can at least have about a 50% PK ratio. That's all you need, honestly. If you can't win PKs with those preps, perhaps you need to look at your tactics in fights. I have/and will continue to say that preps do not matter as much as timing and willingness to perhaps die to kill someone.

In final, as many of the IMMs and Dio's VIPS have said, the reason the playerbase is declining is because we just aren't getting those 14-16 year old kids to play anymore. Why? Because they are playing WoW, Counter-Strike, etc, etc. Now, we have lost some veteran players (at least in the year and a month I've been playing) because of real life, IE we are in our mid-twenties and life is kicking our ass (or significant other, in mine and Balrahd's(at the least) case). Now, knowing that the veteran players might not have five hours a day to play anymore, the IMMs have ATTEMPTED to make the game a bit more easy to play as a casual gamer. I sure as hell appreciate this, you should to. And that's pretty much it.

I'm going to get this place, and I'm going to learn where all these preps are at that everyone lives and dies by. I'm going to learn this, but I dont want to learn them later on, and by that time others have quit the place. I love CF right now, but I just wish everything wasn't about taking all the corpse, and no prep necessary.

You fight someone, and get them to writhing or gushing, ect.. ALMOST DEAD, and they flee, camo and 1 tick later come back in perfect health, or few scratches and ambush again vs me who doesn't really know where preps are at, and makes me flee. Then he has the nerve to say that I'm pathetic at pking, and I run like a "girl" in his language. You dont see something wrong with that? I'm not complaining, I'm not, but where is the skill? What makes these classes so special from the other ones? You have certain heros that I've seen pretty much have no skill besides an ambush. Do basically no damage except heal, and come back and ambush again while fully preped.

I mean go down the list, and tell me what makes these classes special?

Shapeshifters - they change into an animal, they get haste, and stone skin. Those are their major spells. But you can go find haste, and stone skin other places in thera. Again, what makes them special when others can get the same protections, and enhancements that they can get? They can turn into an animal and get owned?

Transmuters - They have all those hardening spells, or you can go the other way and "malleability" i think is what it's called. They can soften your skin, and disrupt your muscle. This class is cool because of it's spells, but is horrible unless you have ABS. You will just get owned. If you get ABS you are considered a god in the pk eyes.

Paladin/Healer/Shaman- Your major defense is Sanctuary, and second is protection. This is what makes this class different from others. But, what makes them special from other classes when any other class can go out and get preps to get sanctuary, or ABS, and more? What makes these classes special again? Please, do not theory fight me either. Well, a shaman can dispel your ABS, and all other stuff. How long can a shaman really last in a fight? They just keep getting hit at higher ranks, and dont really hit back except with their maladictions, but by that time they need to flee. I'm just posting as to what I've seen at higher ranking fights. But that's not the point, the point was that what makes these classes special with their defensive capabilities is that they get the sanctuary spell. But, when others can get it too, what makes them special?

Invokers- They get all those shields after all that work it takes to learn all those spells. THey also get owned by anyone who can hit worth a crap. They get owned period if they do not have ABS. What makes this class special when they need to have ABS or they will just die. The amount of time it takes to get an invoker stronger is just not worth it when you get owned all the time, even with those fire shield, lightning shield, ect...Up.

Bards - They are annoying, but really need ABS too. They just get hit. They have nice songs they sing, oh my god they are nice. I've been hit by a couple, very annoying, but they need ABS too so they can compete.


Ok, there are more examples, but I dont have time. The point is that the number one reason why I think this player base is going down is because of full looting. I've seen and heard newbies, or even experienced players rage delete, or just quit because they got full looted for no reason. Others say they dont do that, but I've only seen one person not full loot someone else. That person was a rager who just took the potions out of the corpse and sac them. BUT, do not sit here and think that ragers are the end all, because you know for a fact that's BS. I dont know what their RP is, but really, do they need to attack everyone in rank? Do they need to attack neutral thiefs, paladins, or other warriors? Their RP is to hate magic users, and that's fine, but come on. Attacking everyone in rank, give me a break, that's not RP. That's another story though.

1. Full looting

2. Pk is based on preps. If you do not know where preps are, then you do not win. Dont tell me to go find the preps, because I will. But, i'm just speaking honestly that this mud is based on the amount of preps you have, and how much healing you can eat/quaff/recite, ect..

When you have the preps, both opponents, then you dont have what makes every class different in the first place. These classes have spells, and supplications that are different from another class. You have them to make things different, but when you have pills, scrolls, or whatever else that gives that classes shield, or commune to another class then you dont have anything that distinguishes one classes shields vs another. That's all I'm saying. Not complaing, because i'm going to learn where they are located at. I can pk now very well without preps with my characters, so it can get only better when I do know where they are at.

Just a thought, but what if you had a world (CF) where there were no preps. There was no ABS scrolls, wands, ect.. There were no haste potions to quaff. There was nothing that you could quaff, or take to let you have the stone skin of a shapeshifter. Nothing that you could quaff, or zap, or whatever that would give you shield, aura, or barrier. You had only what your class had. How well do youthink you'd do then?


Ok, back to playing my warrior eventhough I have a Thesis to write, but I just can't get away from this game.

This was just my two cents from what I've seen in my 8 months of playing CF.

In eight months, I had mastered maybe two classes and learned only about 25% of the story background to CF's diverse and rich world.

Every class has strengths and weaknesses. A ranger that's been faerie fogged/fired is suddenly a lot less cocky. A paladin thats been dispelled is less like a Ligerdillo and more like a very soft guy with a big sword. An earth-bound or entwined airform suddenly finds itself in a very scary position. The list goes on and on, whatever you're fight has a very serious fear. Exploit it.

After that time you seem to believe you know all there is to PK. What this post largely indicates if you have a poor idea of how many classes work.

Bards, for one, are easily the most powerful class in the game. They are excellent at exploring, have good inherent damage reduction ontop of dodge, parry and shield block skills. They are unparalled at 'mass effects', have some good non-song skills to boot and scroll/staff skills. I could go on for hours about Bards, in some peoples eyes they're overpowered.

Invokers are fragile, but they have immense power in their spells/shields and 'traps' - for which they don't even need to be present to have work. Their shields are much coveted by other classes, if you don't have ABS - get someone else to tank for you.

Shaman's cannot dispel ABS. False info!

The amount of ways to get sanctuary without a healer/paladin casting it - I can count on my hand. The same hand I crippled in an unfortunate combine harvester accident to have three of my fingers removed. Yeah.

Shapeshifters get these skills as spells. And if you were half as in touch with the game as you 'claim' - you'd know haste was just largely removed altogether as a prep. (Disclaimer: Rare exceptions remain. Also much, much harder to use/get)

Aura/barrier/shield is not necessary to pk. Its damn helpful but I would take a second person fighting with me over having all three any day. A healer, for example, fighting by your side is superior in most aspects. Or an invoker who you can drive/rescue/blind for!

All you have to do is flick down the huge list of logs at www.QHCF.net to see there are plenty of people defying your text every day. Its not about one-on-one duelling - we'd all have closed arena's if thats what we liked. Preps last only so long - you can try running someone about until they wear off. And not everything is as it seems - that guy may have just healing cursed you, but he burned 260/680 mana trying to.

Truth is, you just won't know for sure until you play it. Feel free to ask us questions on the main board of our site, or on the newbie section of this one, and we can help dispel some of these illusions you have. Enjoy!

Yhorian.

Like i said, I didn't claim to be an expert. I only know so much, and have only been here for about 6-8 months. I know this because that's when my grades start to go down, heh. My priorities are set, aren't they?

But, i thank you for your attitude about my post. If I came across as knowing it all, my mistake. I dont really know much except little bit of equipment, and areas. I dont know anything about bards except that I got hit by a song that did more damage than I've ever been hit with. I was just giving my reasons that I think the playerbase has gone down, that's all. Being full looted is not fun, but it happens all the time.

But, you didn't get my point. The point I was making is that this is a pk game based on preps, and alot of the preps happen to be ABS. One giant warrior hits another warrior, and does an injures to the human warrior. That's what I'm talking about. I'm not saying anything bad about it, i'm just saying that it's a heavy prep pk game, that's all.

I'm saying every class is that class for it's own reasons, and has it's own spells, or communes. You give those spells and communes to another class via potions, scrolls, staves, ect.. Then you took away what made that class special. All your examples are saying what i'm exactly saying.

What do your examples prove to me? Haste is now rare, or limited? What you saying? Now playing a shifter who gets haste means no other can have haste right along with him? So, what you are saying is that this is kind of what i'm saying then? Take away haste from the rest of the world, and leave it for the majority, as a shifter spell? You trying to prove me wrong?

ABS is no necessarily for pk? Again, what are you trying to tell me here? Not alot of people use it for pking? They use it to kill really tough mobs? But, you in all are telling me that some do use it for pk? That's what you are saying to me, but you are also telling me that others use it for mobs? Good point? <--Sarcasm

"A healer by yourside would be better than ABS" Gee, ya think? Someone who can sit there and cast sanc on you, heal you, bless you, and do whatever else to you is better than fighting someone who has no healer, and ABS. Again, Ya think?



"The amount of ways to get sanctuary without a healer/paladin casting it - I can count on my hand." This is what I am talking about. There is a way that YOU, a non paladin/healer can get sanc without it being casted on your by a paladin/healer. This is what I am talking about. Are you trying to prove me wrong? You get sanc from another source, and that pretty much takes away that special commune these paladins have that makes them their own unique class. You trying to tell me that I'm wrong? Wrong with what? You are saying what I already said. In order to pk at mid-to-high levels you have to prep out the ass. YOu have to have healing potions that you can just keep quaffing, or eating pills.

Run around until their preps wear off? Honestly, come on. Are you serious? I said do not theory fight me. Do not sit there and tell me that i could do something to negate the preps, like running around.

I'm not whining here. I'm going to learn about these preps, and use them on you. ALso, I never said that a shaman can dispel ABS. I NEVER SAID THAT. Dont tell me that I'm wrong here. I said a shaman can dispel magic. I never said he can dispel ABS.

Misinformation my a$$, what are you really trying to tell me? You are saying what I was saying. Good point?

I think his point, which I share, is that you make a lot of claims about how PK operates as if they are definitive, yet don't hold up in practice. There really is a great deal of factual misinformation present, and stuff like:

"ABS is no necessarily for pk? Again, what are you trying to tell me here? Not alot of people use it for pking? They use it to kill really tough mobs? But, you in all are telling me that some do use it for pk? That's what you are saying to me, but you are also telling me that others use it for mobs? Good point? <--Sarcasm"

... undermines your point, and probably should stop.

Regarding looting: People keep claiming this is a great scourge, but there is less looting now than I've ever seen. (At CF's peak population, you got looted nearly every time you fell and it wasn't even questioned.) While our player counts are lower now than they were then, I think people hijack that statistic and claim that their pet peeve is causative.

Regarding preps: The vast majority cannot be maintained 24/7. They require a sacrifice (time, money, effort, and/or risk) to get, just like getting a better piece of equipment. Are you also for removing non-cosmetic benefits of equipment? Knowing where better equipment is (and being capable of getting the tougher items) also provides an advantage in PK. What about quest rewards? Many quests provide non-cosmetic advantages which can change PK.

The existence of these kinds of factors places a higher skill demand on the player-- it isn't just about typing the optimal commands during a relatively short engagement. The system accounts for exploration and area knowledge as well as strategic planning, rather than a narrow focus on tactical decisions. All of them matter, but the decision tree is much larger.

There's obviously a balance. If quaffing some potion meant an instant, easy win, then the other factors become irrelevant, the decision tree gets pruned, and the final product isn't very interesting. The question is how much weighting you give to each of these factors. My opinion is that you massively overestimate the impact of these preps in deciding fights.

Games exist with purely tactical conflict mechanisms (all characters enter combat more or less equal, and what commands you enter is the pure decider, beyond the RNG), but they tend to have shorter lifespans due to the limited decisions. Being "good" at CF takes a very long time, in part because it's a complex system where other players have a massive volume of collective experience. You can still learn new things here after playing for 2 or 4 or 8 years. A lot of games can't provide that experience.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Regarding looting: People keep claiming this is a great scourge, but there is less looting now than I've ever seen. (At CF's peak population, you got looted nearly every time you fell and it wasn't even questioned.) While our player counts are lower now than they were then, I think people hijack that statistic and claim that their pet peeve is causative.


Now, don't take this as me being against full looting (though I try to be polite when I kill someone unless their gear is just insanely awsome or they have full sacced my stuff infront of me in the past). But saying that full looting was common in the past and our player base back then was way larger doesn't really make your point in my eyes. Back then we had a lot more players and veteran players that were used to what was expected and it was slightly easier to recover from a full loot back then too. Now adays though the veterans most of the time will just get up and dust themselves off when they get full looted but it is the new comers that are pushed away. Sure we had numbers and more full looting back in the day, but likely back then the newcomers were just as quickly disgusted and left as they are now but now we have a smaller playerbase with which to attract as many newcomers as we did back then, see where I am going with this? Just thought I would try to put it in a slightly different perspective.

Chris

as

nt

1) Take away 'get all corpse' & 'get 1. corpse' replace with get X corpse for all players but the deceased.
-this will stop lowbie looters from spamming get all and stop the farking charmie looting which is a personal pet peeve.

2) Have corpse destroying skills no longer destroy the corpse but leave a husk/shell that is still under the above rules.
-I hate it when a Rager/Outlander fag butchers your corpse just before you get there leaving all your things to out of PK players.

And walla! Instant parity in looting for all classes and levels. I still want to see the mmorpg that would come from CF. See my post about CF's future below. Free source code for a mmorpg.

And that the Imms would share their thoughts/opinions about these ideas.

Back then we had a lot more players and veteran players that were used to what was expected and it was slightly easier to recover from a full loot back then too.

Explain? IMHO, with the additional areas and solid gear available, it's a lot easier to recover from a full loot now than it was in the past.

Sure we had numbers and more full looting back in the day, but likely back then the newcomers were just as quickly disgusted and left as they are now but now we have a smaller playerbase with which to attract as many newcomers as we did back then, see where I am going with this?

This I might buy, though it'd be hard to 'prove', since we don't have exit data from departing disgruntled newbies from then or now to support a claim like this. I mean, we all got full looted back in the day, and we're still here!

That being said, I will add that getting full looted pretty much sucks for most of us. If it sucks for veteran players, I can extrapolate that it would suck even more for newbies.

We've kicked around some ideas for making stripping corpses and destroying gear a bit harder than it currently is, without severely impacting gear distribution. Might be time to dust those off and readdress.

Kastellyn the Devourer of Magic, Lord of Legends

>Back then we had a lot more players and veteran players
>that were used to what was expected and it was slightly easier
>to recover from a full loot back then too.
>
>Explain? IMHO, with the additional areas and solid gear
>available, it's a lot easier to recover from a full loot now
>than it was in the past.

This is in fact the very reason why regearing is harder than it used to be. There are more options. In the old world of cf, maledicting skills were less. You needed damroll or hp. People weren't worried of 'balanced sets'. Darkened eq made you a PK god of future legends. Back then, there weren't as many regear options available, and red dragon + nightwings was golden (still a solid starter). Now, you need to run around checking various limited spots for those few extra str and dex points. This is more time consuming.

Do not get me wrong however, I don't think we should go back. It's much like all this handy modern day equipment that is supposed to save time, when in fact it makes life more hectic. Still doesn't mean I would rather live without them.

>Regarding preps: The vast majority cannot be maintained 24/7. They
>require a sacrifice (time, money, effort, and/or risk) to get, just
>like getting a better piece of equipment. Are you also for removing
>non-cosmetic benefits of equipment? Knowing where better equipment
>is (and being capable of getting the tougher items) also provides an
>advantage in PK. What about quest rewards? Many quests provide
>non-cosmetic advantages which can change PK.

The bad preps are the ones where your sacrifice is just time. These are the ones that reward grinding, people are given a benefit for doing something non productive and redundant. Hidden preps and things like spamming skills fall into this category. The immortal staff has come a long way in reducing these types of tradeoffs but they still exist. If an action isn't enjoyable and doesn't benefit the game you shouldn't reward it at all through game mechanics. Other tradeoffs like risk are much more acceptable. It all comes down to what you're trying to reward.

>The existence of these kinds of factors places a higher skill demand
>on the player-- it isn't just about typing the optimal commands
>during a relatively short engagement. The system accounts for
>exploration and area knowledge as well as strategic planning, rather
>than a narrow focus on tactical decisions. All of them matter, but
>the decision tree is much larger.

Exploration and area knowledge would still have benefits in the system even if you took out A/B/S preps. Players with this knowledge have more options for getting good equipment and can manuever a lot better in PK. If you took out some of the candies, less people might place an emphasis on this and the intrinsic value of doing it might go up.

The strategic planning and skill demand thing is also lessened when it's something like damage reduction that's going to be helpful regardless of who you are going to fight. Things like resist preps that are situational and won't help against everybody feel a lot more like actual strategy.

>Games exist with purely tactical conflict mechanisms (all characters
>enter combat more or less equal, and what commands you enter is the
>pure decider, beyond the RNG), but they tend to have shorter
>lifespans due to the limited decisions. Being "good" at CF takes a
>very long time, in part because it's a complex system where other
>players have a massive volume of collective experience. You can
>still learn new things here after playing for 2 or 4 or 8 years. A
>lot of games can't provide that experience.</i>

While I wouldn't advocate a purely tactical system, I'd suggest that a good return on adding fun to the game would be putting efforts into making the tactical system of CF more varied/complex and with more decision paths. People come up with very cool ideas, do as much as you can with the mechanics to allow people to bring these ideas into practice in the game.

It's much easier to eat that death when you see somebody did something more clever than you rather than they were (or even you think they were) prepped up the ass. That's because it's more fun to try and think up that stuff rather than find the obscure prep.

Let’s assume we have a mud that has a base of 100 players

Every day 1% of the total population leaves and never returns because of a full loot.

Only 20% of the population is inclined to full loot.

So day 1 we have 20 full loot players (FLP’s).

Day 2 we 99 players.

Day 3 98

Day 4 97


And so on . Eventually the curve starts to even out and FL’s occur lest often because of greater in game Geographic’s and a raw decline in actual FLP‘s. The people who are inclined to E-Penis full loot have likely moved on to greener pastures leaving a game more conducive to getting your #### back.

But one Full loot, will drive people away. Valg, you yourself posted a small snippet of what happened to a hand full of newbies who got full looted. They didn’t come back.

A mob death might bum someone out, a full loot of gear the new character is envisioning him/herself in, is enough for them to say.. Hrm.. Time Sink. Buh-Bye.

>Like i said, I didn't claim to be an expert. I only know so
>much, and have only been here for about 6-8 months. I know
>this because that's when my grades start to go down, heh. My
>priorities are set, aren't they?

You're making a lot of definitive statements for someone who knows jack.

>But, i thank you for your attitude about my post. If I came
>across as knowing it all, my mistake. I dont really know much
>except little bit of equipment, and areas. I dont know
>anything about bards except that I got hit by a song that did
>more damage than I've ever been hit with. I was just giving my
>reasons that I think the playerbase has gone down, that's all.
> Being full looted is not fun, but it happens all the time.

Nope, looting is at an all time low. It is also part of the game mechanics. Anyone who asks for a 'regear list', can get a simple list of equipment for their class that'll have them fighting fit in 15 mins after a full loot. Less if you want to expend gold you've saved in your bank.

>But, you didn't get my point. The point I was making is that
>this is a pk game based on preps, and alot of the preps happen
>to be ABS. One giant warrior hits another warrior, and does an
>injures to the human warrior. That's what I'm talking about.
>I'm not saying anything bad about it, i'm just saying that
>it's a heavy prep pk game, that's all.

I got the points you made about classes. Telling me I didn't get the point because I didn't tackle <i>all</i> of them isn't constructive. So, lets handle this prepping point.

>I'm saying every class is that class for it's own reasons, and
>has it's own spells, or communes. You give those spells and
>communes to another class via potions, scrolls, staves, ect..
>Then you took away what made that class special. All your
>examples are saying what i'm exactly saying.

No, my examples aren't actually. ABS is not a class inherent spell. It also cannot be cast on another player by any other class - abs sources are self-use only. Any class that gives away such abilities as part of its 'support' has a big bonus when put into a team that it might not have alone. As I said, its not a 'one on one' game.

>What do your examples prove to me? Haste is now rare, or
>limited? What you saying? Now playing a shifter who gets haste
>means no other can have haste right along with him? So, what
>you are saying is that this is kind of what i'm saying then?
>Take away haste from the rest of the world, and leave it for
>the majority, as a shifter spell? You trying to prove me
>wrong?

Since you sound like a fool, we're going to skip the bit where I make fun of you. I even snipped the laughter.

Haste is rare. Transmuters can still quicken everyone, shapeshifters advantage is having it as a <i>spell</i> that doesn't need to be gathered/bartered for through an ally. By and large, you <b>are</b> wrong about nearly all your assumptions.

>ABS is no necessarily for pk? Again, what are you trying to
>tell me here? Not alot of people use it for pking? They use it
>to kill really tough mobs? But, you in all are telling me
>that some do use it for pk? That's what you are saying to me,
>but you are also telling me that others use it for mobs? Good
>point? <--Sarcasm

Snip the making fun of. You do yourself enough damage . Moving on.

>"A healer by yourside would be better than ABS" Gee, ya
>think? Someone who can sit there and cast sanc on you, heal
>you, bless you, and do whatever else to you is better than
>fighting someone who has no healer, and ABS. Again, Ya
>think?

Your original point was 'ABS is NECESSARY to PK'. As you've just stated above, its not. When you stop contradicting yourself, I'll be a lot more civil and helpful. At the moment, you're like the guy hugging himself in the padded cell. Relax.

>"The amount of ways to get sanctuary without a healer/paladin
>casting it - I can count on my hand." This is what I am
>talking about. There is a way that YOU, a non paladin/healer
>can get sanc without it being casted on your by a
>paladin/healer.

Yeah, and they're not about to be using it regularly in PK. Ever. I've seen one guy use such a source in PK in the past 5 years I've been playing. And it was last week. Seriously, get a clue.

>This is what I am talking about. Are you
>trying to prove me wrong?

You do that yourself, bud.

>You get sanc from another source,
>and that pretty much takes away that special commune these
>paladins have that makes them their own unique class. You
>trying to tell me that I'm wrong? Wrong with what? You are
>saying what I already said. In order to pk at mid-to-high
>levels you have to prep out the ass. YOu have to have healing
>potions that you can just keep quaffing, or eating pills.
>
>Run around until their preps wear off? Honestly, come on. Are
>you serious? I said do not theory fight me. Do not sit there
>and tell me that i could do something to negate the preps,
>like running around.
>
>I'm not whining here. I'm going to learn about these preps,
>and use them on you. ALso, I never said that a shaman can
>dispel ABS. I NEVER SAID THAT. Dont tell me that I'm wrong
>here. I said a shaman can dispel magic. I never said he can
>dispel ABS.
>
>Misinformation my a$$, what are you really trying to tell me?
>You are saying what I was saying. Good point?


Blah, blah, blah. Translation: I like to whine. Its easier than trying to get better at this game.

I tried to help, you pretty much acted like an arse. Head to our supporting site, ask questions, but don't try to piss people off. Its not the way to get help around here. Enjoy.

Yhorian.

A bit different from <> in Dio's, but otherwise the same.

Simply quoting you:

"I'm not whining here. I'm going to learn about these preps, and use them on you. ALso, I never said that a shaman can dispel ABS. I NEVER SAID THAT. Dont tell me that I'm wrong here. I said a shaman can dispel magic. I never said he can dispel ABS."

You may not have "said" it but you sure as heckfire wrote it:

"Well, a shaman can dispel your ABS, and all other stuff"

I'm actually not sure if you are just having us all on here because you are far too confident in your obviously incorrect and misleading argument. You've basically gone through and stated why every class can't PK unless they have ABS. Give CF another 8 months and you may see things differently. I was still green after 8 months, but I reckon I had more of an idea than you currently do

"Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into nothing that is something, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy."
- Albert Einstein

>Paladin/Healer/Shaman- Your major defense is Sanctuary, and second is protection. This is what makes this class different from others. But, what makes them special from other classes when any other class can go out and get preps to get sanctuary, or ABS, and more? What makes these classes special again? Please, do not theory fight me either. Well, a shaman can dispel your ABS, and all other stuff. How long can a shaman really last in a fight? They just keep getting hit at higher ranks, and dont really hit back except with their maladictions, but by that time they need to flee. I'm just posting as to what I've seen at higher ranking fights. But that's not the point, the point was that what makes these classes special with their defensive capabilities is that they get the sanctuary spell. But, when others can get it too, what makes them special?


*****************

What makes theses classes special? Take an Paladin, wouldnt you say its the virtues they get. A healer, wouldnt you say that his healing abilities are superior to any other? And you obviously never played a shaman. HOw long can a shaman last?! Well, having played a shaman or two with over 100 pk's and not more than around 10 death's i would say they are quite capable of doing fine, even at hero rank.

But then again... I've never played a warrior, they got sword, axe and all the other skills... Perhaps make it so they get a new kind of weapons?! Like chair fighting and the like... Bleah!

Paladin/Healer/Shaman- Your major defense is Sanctuary, and second is protection. This is what makes this class different from others. But, what makes them special from other classes when any other class can go out and get preps to get sanctuary, or ABS, and more?

1) Each of those classes has numerous unique abilities, not just those two.

2) It is not true in the slightest that any other class can "go out and get preps to get sanctuary, or ABS". At most, Aura and Shield could be in play (the weaker of the four abilities), and those are quite rare.

What makes these classes special again? Please, do not theory fight me either. Well, a shaman can dispel your ABS, and all other stuff.

3) They cannot dispel A/B/S. A large number of other abilities either can't be dispelled, or it is very difficult to dispel them. (Consider Spellcraft.)

How long can a shaman really last in a fight? They just keep getting hit at higher ranks, and dont really hit back except with their maladictions, but by that time they need to flee. I'm just posting as to what I've seen at higher ranking fights.

4) You're apparently watching bad shamans, because they have excellent staying power. Block/parry plus inherent damage reduction plus efficient, repeatable healing makes them one of the most difficult classes to beat down. Those maledictions you mention as an afterthought are quite potent as well. We've had any number of extremely successful shamans who exploited these strengths.

But that's not the point, the point was that what makes these classes special with their defensive capabilities is that they get the sanctuary spell. But, when others can get it too, what makes them special?

5) Barring a few truly exceptional cases, if you have Sanctuary, it's because your class gives it, or because a PC healer (or a minority of paladins that can do this) granted to you. Sanctuary is a powerful ability, and thus not available in the general case.

Despite what you claim elsewhere, all of these specifics are very relevant to your argument. You're creating a straw man, deliberately or otherwise, where any character can just go out and get these powerful abilities. It's not the case.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Bards - They are annoying, but really need ABS too. They just get hit. They have nice songs they sing, oh my god they are nice. I've been hit by a couple, very annoying, but they need ABS too so they can compete.

Well then bards are in trouble, because bards can't get Barrier, period. They can get the weaker two protections, but their options are much more limited than a mage's.

We've had many successful examples of bards who didn't make great use of either of those two abilities-- bards are excellent tanks, and their songs can be applied in a number of roles (group support, damage, poor man's necromancer, etc.).

What evidence do you have that they're poor in PK?

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

You fight someone, and get them to writhing or gushing, ect.. ALMOST DEAD, and they flee, camo and 1 tick later come back in perfect health, or few scratches and ambush again vs me who doesn't really know where preps are at, and makes me flee.

1) Herbs has some pretty significant limitations, notably that the ranger in question can't do that again for a little while.

2) So does Ambush, notably that they need to be able to see you, you have to be unable to see them, and it has to initiate (and re-initiate to get your twice) combat. All classes have something they can do to reduce the chances of a second ambush, and possibly the first one.

Then he has the nerve to say that I'm pathetic at pking, and I run like a "girl" in his language. You dont see something wrong with that? I'm not complaining, I'm not, but where is the skill? What makes these classes so special from the other ones? You have certain heros that I've seen pretty much have no skill besides an ambush. Do basically no damage except heal, and come back and ambush again while fully prepped.

3) So long he expressed the sentiment In Character, I don't see anything wrong with that. It's neither desirable nor effective to regulate roleplay style too strictly.

4) If you think playing a ranger is that simple, and requires "no skill", the easiest way to prove that to us is to play one and dominate your opposition. In the absence of that kind of evidence, my conclusion for now is that rangers are a tough fight in the wilderness, not very tough out of it, and overall it's a wash.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Thoughful post, though, you do come off as a know-it-all even while admitting you are a new player at the same time. So.

Firstly, yes it can get frustrating seeing logs of mages walk through a group of villagers, taking only scratches and killing every last one of them. You are thinking that it can't be fair how someone could gain this sort of advantage. Then, you, as an unprepped mage try to kill a lone ranger or bard or whatever and find that even this can be a daunting task. As a mage, this is frustrating, and I can sypathize. But mages have powers that make them freaky scary. I would rather see a group full of warriors running around in my pk then a group full of conjurors, transmuters, and invokers any day of the week, in terms of fearing for my little character's life.

But. The odd phenomenon about people posting logs, is that you see mainly the extreme cases. As an outsider, I'd get the impression from your post that every hero mage is running around with a/b/s and every warrior is running around shielded up with haste. Again, let's agree that an a/b/s mage is going to kill your face quick if you fight him. But does this really happen to you that often? I'd hope not. It rarely does to me. And if it does, I can choose not to fight if all I'm doing is scratching that guy. Preps, barrier in particular, are very difficult to keep up. Impossible to keep up all the time, or even 2% of the time. Remember that. The only time I found a barrier wand (I was given it) I burned it up trying to chase somebody. I wanted to puke.

Now. What's the solution? For me, I am learning to get mileage out of preps I can buy or are free. Do you ever used protection vs align? Do you ever make use of bless? Resist mental? For example, throw these three on alone, with any class specific damage reduction you might have, and you probably have a dead bard if you play your cards correctly.

I also think you are underestimating the inherent protection powers of hero mages.

Let's look at invokers. Shields + protection align + bash protection, and you have some decent staying power. For free! Berserkers might rape you, but, all you need to do is get off a couple big damage spells and you're competitive from the get go.

Transmuters? Sure, with a/b/s you are nigh untouchable, but don't underestimate their durability with their inherent protections. Corporeal hardening+calcify+desensitize+quickening+accelerate+control translucense+spiderhands+protection align is going to make you toss that unprepped warrior around like a rag doll. I've played a couple transmuters thinking, wow, this neuro thing is way too overpowered. That wasn't fun at all. I'm outtanking/outdamaging this axe spec and he can't move? One neuro and two disrupts can take down some hero range warriors if you're lucky. And that's before they can even move. Unlikely that easy, but you get the point that it's possible.

Anyways, I think you need to have fun and fight some more and not worry about a/b/s preps and just enjoy. You don't have to dominate every fight to have fun!

I do not care about all that is written, I do not. The simple fact of the matter is that the player base is getting smaller because you have everyone taking everything out of the corpse. I dont need you to sit there and tell me anything. I've seen it first hand, so no, "you are wrong," is needed.

If you can't face that fact then, whatever. You have a good game here, but you have a few dumba$$es who just take everything from a corpse, and make it so that you just dont want to play anymore.

Fact the fact, that is the reason. You see it all the time posted, but you do nothing about it. I've killed 5 people with the paladin, never looted anything. I get killed by someone when i'm fighting another mob when I'm more than half way to death, and he takes absolutely everything from the corpse. It's BS. Sure, "veterans" can re-equip themselves in a few minutes, but you know what? That's why they are called "veterans" THis mud needs new people to play, and the amount of people who just rage delete after someone takes all their $hit is unreal.

IF the imms do not see that, then whatever. It's not my mud. They can do with it what they please, and have done. I love the place, but god damn, stop all the full f-cking looting, or do something about it.

>I do not care about all that is written, I do not. The simple
>fact of the matter is that the player base is getting smaller
>because you have everyone taking everything out of the corpse.
> I dont need you to sit there and tell me anything. I've seen
>it first hand, so no, "you are wrong," is needed.

Yes, that is the problem isn't it, you don't listen, you don't need anyone who knows more than you telling you that yes, the sky is indeed blue because you know godamn well that it is purple, and it isn't possible that you are color blind.

>If you can't face that fact then, whatever. You have a good
>game here, but you have a few dumba$$es who just take
>everything from a corpse, and make it so that you just dont
>want to play anymore.

Full looting sucks. So does killing someone with lots of shinies and not being able to take them. It's a two way street, and we drive on the left.

>Fact the fact, that is the reason. You see it all the time
>posted, but you do nothing about it. I've killed 5 people
>with the paladin, never looted anything. I get killed by
>someone when i'm fighting another mob when I'm more than half
>way to death

Welcome to the world of tactics. Not everything is a duel.

>, and he takes absolutely everything from the
>corpse. It's BS. Sure, "veterans" can re-equip themselves in
>a few minutes, but you know what? That's why they are called
>"veterans" THis mud needs new people to play, and the amount
>of people who just rage delete after someone takes all their
>$hit is unreal.

Not that I particularly disbelieve you, but you are basing this on what exactly? If you have statistics on why people are quiting, I'm the the CF Imms would be interested. Otherwise... OMFH the children!

>IF the imms do not see that, then whatever. It's not my mud.
>They can do with it what they please, and have done. I love
>the place, but god damn, stop all the full f-cking looting, or
>do something about it.

If you have better gear than me, and I kill you, I'm taking your ####. If you've been an idiot (and having interacted with one of your characters, I'd guess this to be the likely scenario) and gone OOC or just raged at me for killing you, or otherwise been a punk, I'm taking your ####.

On a personal note: I tried to help out a character of yours, and you were... unpleasant. Also, you acted as if you knew more than me... Which isn't true. If you want to learn, you must first accept that others might know more than you. Then, you have to try and learn from them. I personally struggle(d) with that, and it is one of the reasons I had no high level character for years.

Step One: Hero a character.

Don't practice skills, don't worry about gear.
Rank, Rank, Rank, Rank, Rank, Rank, Rank, and then Rank some more.
After Heroing, then start looking around. You'll learn more from one hero that 4000 level 20 spam practicing characters. I promise.